Bastyr University

AnnoyingPony · 4th June 2011, 07:03 PM

Hi fellow skeptics,

I just got back from the Bastyr food and herb festival. My parentals took me.

I saw some... interesting things there. There were about 5 herbalist tents, 1 naturopathy tent, 1 tent that was offering herbal foot-baths, 1 team of acupuncturists, 2 vegetarians, 1 Italian man selling magical orange juice, etc. There were also a lot of jewelers who sold crystal jewelry, but only one of them extolled the "magical properties" of crystals.

In particular, I remember two people:

1. A woman who had a booth on why Americans are fat: Our serving sizes have gotten larger. I suggested that perhaps people should pay more attention to what they eat. She said that it was due to the "food culture" that Americans are fat. When I asked her what that meant, she said it was "commercials" and "mind-control marketing" and that McDonalds was mostly to blame. One display of hers had a bag of jumbo marshmallows next to a bag of "normal" marshmallows, as if they were from two different time periods. They still looked edible, and I highly doubt that she's kept the same bag of marshmallows in her food pantry for thirty years just so she can show us the difference between the wholesome food of yesteryear and the unhealthy lard-gruel of today.

2. A man who was selling some herbal perfumes (aromatherapy perhaps), but was also selling a book by a woman who claims to have received manuscripts from fairies. He had brochures at his tent that read:

FAIRY & HUMAN RELATIONS CONGRESS
COMMUNICATION AND CO-CREATION WITH
DEVAS, NATURE SPIRITS AND
THE FAERY REALMS

I like the part where they couldn't decide how to spell the word "fairy/faery".

At home I discussed why I disagreed with so-called alternative medicine with my mom. I told her that although some practitioners may honestly believe in what they're doing, the lack of scientific evidence supporting it along with the cases of malpractice in the industry made me distrustful of them. She called me an "extremist" and recalled an anecdote of hers.

"A while ago, I had insomnia issues. I would wake up in the middle of the night for no reason, and then I couldn't go back to sleep. As a result of my erratic sleeping schedule, I felt tense and nervous all the time. I was walking around in a fog. Then I went to see the acupuncturist, and as soon as she was done I felt much more clarity and I felt better! Sure, I might have woken up in the awkward hours of midnight anyway, but I felt much better!"

"You said that your sleep disturbances continued despite the acupuncture treatment. Doesn't that show that it didn't help your insomnia at all?"

[ignoring what I just said] "The acupuncture made me feel better!"

"But you believe wholeheartedly in acupuncture! The temporary feeling of relief you felt could be due to a placebo effect."

"It's not placebo!"

"It could be."

"IT'S NOT PLACEBO AND YOU'RE P*SSING ME OFF."

At this point I decided leave because she was getting really mad. On the way out she said, "I don't see why you have to be so anti-alternative. It's extremist and close-minded. How could you be so anti-acupuncture? It helped you when you were younger..." etc. etc.

All I said was, "And then I learned more, so I changed my mind about it!" It was the only thing I could really say.

Perpetual Student · 4th June 2011, 07:36 PM

Hang in there. I doubt if it will ever get any better.

AnnoyingPony · 4th June 2011, 07:52 PM

Even my mom thought that Fairy Man (as I called him) was crazy. But reasoning with her is really hard. In the past I've tried to start with what we agree upon and go forward from there.

arthwollipot · 4th June 2011, 07:58 PM

Best description ever of alternative medicine was by Tim Minchin:

Quote:

Alternative medicine, by definition, either hasn't been proved to work, or been proved not to work.

You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work?

Medicine.

AdMan · 4th June 2011, 08:00 PM

I admire your stance, if you're growing up with parents like that. Keep it up and stay skeptical!

AnnoyingPony · 4th June 2011, 08:29 PM

I love Tim Minchin. I heard that poem, in fact. It's classic.

Chris Haynes · 4th June 2011, 10:56 PM

How old are you? Will you be going to college soon? I would invite you to go the Seattle Skeptics in the Pub, but in the future they will in a venue near Quest Stadium that actually has stripper poles. Hey! They are not charging us more than the food we buy! Plus it is near the bus tunnel, so if you need to get there by bus it is not that bad.

Join us, there are meetups on the Eastside:
http://www.meetup.com/seattleskeptics/

Aepervius · 5th June 2011, 12:26 AM

@Op, there are two ways to handle a family which is deep in woo. You can try calmly to explain them, and back off if they heat up (escalation on your part will only lead to blocking on their part so if argument heat up , you will have to back off). Or just shut up.

I practiced the point 1 , but that led to nowhere. Now my parents are 80 and and every time I spend with them, I avoid touchy subject because however I wish it, I know they are not eternal and sooner or later I will not see them anymore. So I stick to program part 2 "never speak on the subject anymore, and if anybody does, shut up and let the woo flow".

sol invictus · 5th June 2011, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by AnnoyingPony

"It's not placebo!"

"It could be."

"IT'S NOT PLACEBO AND YOU'RE P*SSING ME OFF."

You're right, of course.

But one word of advice - you're unlikely to change your mom's mind about this. Arguing with her will make her angry. So unless it's really important (like she's avoiding seeking real medical care for something truly serious), it might be better to argue with people that you care about less about instead.

Emet · 5th June 2011, 06:36 AM

A vet assistant worked at a clinic I practiced at. She had some chronic illness previous to our meeting and working together. I don't remember the details.

She turned against science (while continuing to work at a traditional vet practice) for her own health, and ended up attending Bastyr for some sort of degree.

When she ranted about alt med, I listened. When she was done, I simply asked her to fill an Rx for me, treat a patient of mine with my real medicine, or changed the subject.

We got along very well.

Visual Purple · 5th June 2011, 07:52 AM

The serving size woman may be on your side. A number of evidence-based sources--the one that comes to mind is the book "Mindless Eating: Why We Eat More Than We Think" by Brian Wansink--explains the cognitive biases that lead people to misjudge the amount of food that they're getting. I think that he gets into the economics of why serving sizes have increased as well. If not, others have, and it's a well-documented trend. Larger serving sizes may not be THE cause of weight problems, but it's a massively (ha!) unhelpful factor.

AnnoyingPony · 5th June 2011, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

How old are you? Will you be going to college soon? I would invite you to go the Seattle Skeptics in the Pub, but in the future they will in a venue near Quest Stadium that actually has stripper poles. Hey! They are not charging us more than the food we buy! Plus it is near the bus tunnel, so if you need to get there by bus it is not that bad.

Join us, there are meetups on the Eastside:
http://www.meetup.com/seattleskeptics/

I'd love to go, but I just turned 15. I'm not sure the pub owners would take a great view of a teenager in their drinking establishment.

AnnoyingPony · 5th June 2011, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Aepervius

@Op, there are two ways to handle a family which is deep in woo. You can try calmly to explain them, and back off if they heat up (escalation on your part will only lead to blocking on their part so if argument heat up , you will have to back off). Or just shut up.

I practiced the point 1 , but that led to nowhere. Now my parents are 80 and and every time I spend with them, I avoid touchy subject because however I wish it, I know they are not eternal and sooner or later I will not see them anymore. So I stick to program part 2 "never speak on the subject anymore, and if anybody does, shut up and let the woo flow".

You're probably right. My parents are frustratingly superstitious, and I suspect one is mentally ill. But because I'm still underage, I'm still the legal property of my parents and they can choose my medicine for me. It was an enormous battle between my parents (me and mom vs. dad and giant ego) just to get me a tetanus shot, and even then my mom had to take me secretly.

Chris Haynes · 5th June 2011, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by AnnoyingPony

I'd love to go, but I just turned 15. I'm not sure the pub owners would take a great view of a teenager in their drinking establishment.

It is an actual restaurant, so I believe that minors are okay. Especially since it is only going to be the Skeptics group. Sign up to the meetup and ask to verify. There are other events that they post, like the Tim Minchin concerts.

The previous spot got too crowded, and one person did bring her young son with her several times.

The Norseman · 5th June 2011, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by AnnoyingPony

I'd love to go, but I just turned 15. I'm not sure the pub owners would take a great view of a teenager in their drinking establishment.

You cannot, as a minor, enter any portion marked as over 21 only. If there are no signed areas, you may still enter and sit, even if alcohol is served (for example, at an Applebee's). RCW 66.44.310 I think is the code for anyone who is interested.

As for Bastyr, I almost enrolled there once many years ago for the massage school. Upon reading this, I'm faintly glad I never did; I may never have escaped the gravity well of Planet Woo as I ended up doing years after that part of my life!

Chris Haynes · 9th June 2011, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

It is an actual restaurant, so I believe that minors are okay. Especially since it is only going to be the Skeptics group. ....

I was wrong. It is only for those over 21, at the moment. According the the Meetup organizers they are attempting to go through the hoops to allow the under-21s in to the Skeptic Meetups there since it is a private gathering. But not in time for the next meetup.

This bums me out because I wanted to bring my 17 year old daughter to the Ben Radford talk.

CNY_Dave · 9th June 2011, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by Visual Purple

The serving size woman may be on your side. A number of evidence-based sources--the one that comes to mind is the book "Mindless Eating: Why We Eat More Than We Think" by Brian Wansink--explains the cognitive biases that lead people to misjudge the amount of food that they're getting. I think that he gets into the economics of why serving sizes have increased as well. If not, others have, and it's a well-documented trend. Larger serving sizes may not be THE cause of weight problems, but it's a massively (ha!) unhelpful factor.

That, and Nixon.

Dave

4th June 2011, 07:03 PM	#1
AnnoyingPony Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 366	Bastyr University Hi fellow skeptics, I just got back from the Bastyr food and herb festival. My parentals took me. I saw some... interesting things there. There were about 5 herbalist tents, 1 naturopathy tent, 1 tent that was offering herbal foot-baths, 1 team of acupuncturists, 2 vegetarians, 1 Italian man selling magical orange juice, etc. There were also a lot of jewelers who sold crystal jewelry, but only one of them extolled the "magical properties" of crystals. In particular, I remember two people: 1. A woman who had a booth on why Americans are fat: Our serving sizes have gotten larger. I suggested that perhaps people should pay more attention to what they eat. She said that it was due to the "food culture" that Americans are fat. When I asked her what that meant, she said it was "commercials" and "mind-control marketing" and that McDonalds was mostly to blame. One display of hers had a bag of jumbo marshmallows next to a bag of "normal" marshmallows, as if they were from two different time periods. They still looked edible, and I highly doubt that she's kept the same bag of marshmallows in her food pantry for thirty years just so she can show us the difference between the wholesome food of yesteryear and the unhealthy lard-gruel of today. 2. A man who was selling some herbal perfumes (aromatherapy perhaps), but was also selling a book by a woman who claims to have received manuscripts from fairies. He had brochures at his tent that read: FAIRY & HUMAN RELATIONS CONGRESS COMMUNICATION AND CO-CREATION WITH DEVAS, NATURE SPIRITS AND THE FAERY REALMS I like the part where they couldn't decide how to spell the word "fairy/faery". At home I discussed why I disagreed with so-called alternative medicine with my mom. I told her that although some practitioners may honestly believe in what they're doing, the lack of scientific evidence supporting it along with the cases of malpractice in the industry made me distrustful of them. She called me an "extremist" and recalled an anecdote of hers. "A while ago, I had insomnia issues. I would wake up in the middle of the night for no reason, and then I couldn't go back to sleep. As a result of my erratic sleeping schedule, I felt tense and nervous all the time. I was walking around in a fog. Then I went to see the acupuncturist, and as soon as she was done I felt much more clarity and I felt better! Sure, I might have woken up in the awkward hours of midnight anyway, but I felt much better!" "You said that your sleep disturbances continued despite the acupuncture treatment. Doesn't that show that it didn't help your insomnia at all?" [ignoring what I just said] "The acupuncture made me feel better!" "But you believe wholeheartedly in acupuncture! The temporary feeling of relief you felt could be due to a placebo effect." "It's not placebo!" "It could be." "IT'S NOT PLACEBO AND YOU'RE P*SSING ME OFF." At this point I decided leave because she was getting really mad. On the way out she said, "I don't see why you have to be so anti-alternative. It's extremist and close-minded. How could you be so anti-acupuncture? It helped you when you were younger..." etc. etc. All I said was, "And then I learned more, so I changed my mind about it!" It was the only thing I could really say.
	__________________ Here be dragons! Here be my blog!

4th June 2011, 07:36 PM	#2
Perpetual Student Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 3,704	Hang in there. I doubt if it will ever get any better.
	__________________ _{It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong. - Richard P. Feynman} ξ

4th June 2011, 07:52 PM	#3
AnnoyingPony Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 366	Even my mom thought that Fairy Man (as I called him) was crazy. But reasoning with her is really hard. In the past I've tried to start with what we agree upon and go forward from there.
	__________________ Here be dragons! Here be my blog!

4th June 2011, 07:58 PM	#4
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 42,979	Best description ever of alternative medicine was by Tim Minchin: Quote: Alternative medicine, by definition, either hasn't been proved to work, or been proved not to work. You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

4th June 2011, 08:00 PM	#5
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,164	I admire your stance, if you're growing up with parents like that. Keep it up and stay skeptical!
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,164	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

4th June 2011, 08:29 PM	#6
AnnoyingPony Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 366	I love Tim Minchin. I heard that poem, in fact. It's classic.
	__________________ Here be dragons! Here be my blog!

4th June 2011, 10:56 PM	#7
Chris Haynes Perfectly Poisonous Person Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Wacky Washington Way Out West Posts: 4,204	How old are you? Will you be going to college soon? I would invite you to go the Seattle Skeptics in the Pub, but in the future they will in a venue near Quest Stadium that actually has stripper poles. Hey! They are not charging us more than the food we buy! Plus it is near the bus tunnel, so if you need to get there by bus it is not that bad. Join us, there are meetups on the Eastside: http://www.meetup.com/seattleskeptics/
	__________________ I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids "HCN, I hate you!" ( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )... What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

5th June 2011, 12:26 AM	#8
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,741	@Op, there are two ways to handle a family which is deep in woo. You can try calmly to explain them, and back off if they heat up (escalation on your part will only lead to blocking on their part so if argument heat up , you will have to back off). Or just shut up. I practiced the point 1 , but that led to nowhere. Now my parents are 80 and and every time I spend with them, I avoid touchy subject because however I wish it, I know they are not eternal and sooner or later I will not see them anymore. So I stick to program part 2 "never speak on the subject anymore, and if anybody does, shut up and let the woo flow".
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

5th June 2011, 12:27 AM	#9
sol invictus Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Nova Roma Posts: 8,419	Originally Posted by AnnoyingPony "It's not placebo!" "It could be." "IT'S NOT PLACEBO AND YOU'RE P*SSING ME OFF." You're right, of course. But one word of advice - you're unlikely to change your mom's mind about this. Arguing with her will make her angry. So unless it's really important (like she's avoiding seeking real medical care for something truly serious), it might be better to argue with people that you care about less about instead.

5th June 2011, 06:36 AM	#10
Emet Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,395	A vet assistant worked at a clinic I practiced at. She had some chronic illness previous to our meeting and working together. I don't remember the details. She turned against science (while continuing to work at a traditional vet practice) for her own health, and ended up attending Bastyr for some sort of degree. When she ranted about alt med, I listened. When she was done, I simply asked her to fill an Rx for me, treat a patient of mine with my real medicine, or changed the subject. We got along very well.
Emet Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,395

5th June 2011, 07:52 AM	#11
Visual Purple Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 145	The serving size woman may be on your side. A number of evidence-based sources--the one that comes to mind is the book "Mindless Eating: Why We Eat More Than We Think" by Brian Wansink--explains the cognitive biases that lead people to misjudge the amount of food that they're getting. I think that he gets into the economics of why serving sizes have increased as well. If not, others have, and it's a well-documented trend. Larger serving sizes may not be THE cause of weight problems, but it's a massively (ha!) unhelpful factor.
Visual Purple Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 145

5th June 2011, 01:22 PM	#12
AnnoyingPony Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 366	Originally Posted by Chris Haynes How old are you? Will you be going to college soon? I would invite you to go the Seattle Skeptics in the Pub, but in the future they will in a venue near Quest Stadium that actually has stripper poles. Hey! They are not charging us more than the food we buy! Plus it is near the bus tunnel, so if you need to get there by bus it is not that bad. Join us, there are meetups on the Eastside: http://www.meetup.com/seattleskeptics/ I'd love to go, but I just turned 15. I'm not sure the pub owners would take a great view of a teenager in their drinking establishment.
	__________________ Here be dragons! Here be my blog!

5th June 2011, 01:37 PM	#13
AnnoyingPony Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 366	Originally Posted by Aepervius @Op, there are two ways to handle a family which is deep in woo. You can try calmly to explain them, and back off if they heat up (escalation on your part will only lead to blocking on their part so if argument heat up , you will have to back off). Or just shut up. I practiced the point 1 , but that led to nowhere. Now my parents are 80 and and every time I spend with them, I avoid touchy subject because however I wish it, I know they are not eternal and sooner or later I will not see them anymore. So I stick to program part 2 "never speak on the subject anymore, and if anybody does, shut up and let the woo flow". You're probably right. My parents are frustratingly superstitious, and I suspect one is mentally ill. But because I'm still underage, I'm still the legal property of my parents and they can choose my medicine for me. It was an enormous battle between my parents (me and mom vs. dad and giant ego) just to get me a tetanus shot, and even then my mom had to take me secretly.
	__________________ Here be dragons! Here be my blog!

5th June 2011, 07:28 PM	#14
Chris Haynes Perfectly Poisonous Person Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Wacky Washington Way Out West Posts: 4,204	Originally Posted by AnnoyingPony I'd love to go, but I just turned 15. I'm not sure the pub owners would take a great view of a teenager in their drinking establishment. It is an actual restaurant, so I believe that minors are okay. Especially since it is only going to be the Skeptics group. Sign up to the meetup and ask to verify. There are other events that they post, like the Tim Minchin concerts. The previous spot got too crowded, and one person did bring her young son with her several times.
	__________________ I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids "HCN, I hate you!" ( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )... What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

5th June 2011, 09:45 PM	#15
The Norseman I Void Warranties Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: The Treasure Valley Posts: 3,236	Originally Posted by AnnoyingPony I'd love to go, but I just turned 15. I'm not sure the pub owners would take a great view of a teenager in their drinking establishment. You cannot, as a minor, enter any portion marked as over 21 only. If there are no signed areas, you may still enter and sit, even if alcohol is served (for example, at an Applebee's). RCW 66.44.310 I think is the code for anyone who is interested. As for Bastyr, I almost enrolled there once many years ago for the massage school. Upon reading this, I'm faintly glad I never did; I may never have escaped the gravity well of Planet Woo as I ended up doing years after that part of my life!
	__________________ "I have always thought that a wild animal never looks so well as when some obstacle of pronounced durability is between us." "Sticking the flounce is the hardest move in forum gymnastics." -tsig

9th June 2011, 07:06 AM	#16
Chris Haynes Perfectly Poisonous Person Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Wacky Washington Way Out West Posts: 4,204	Originally Posted by Chris Haynes It is an actual restaurant, so I believe that minors are okay. Especially since it is only going to be the Skeptics group. .... I was wrong. It is only for those over 21, at the moment. According the the Meetup organizers they are attempting to go through the hoops to allow the under-21s in to the Skeptic Meetups there since it is a private gathering. But not in time for the next meetup. This bums me out because I wanted to bring my 17 year old daughter to the Ben Radford talk.
	__________________ I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids "HCN, I hate you!" ( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )... What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

9th June 2011, 09:23 AM	#17
CNY_Dave Thinker Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 133	Originally Posted by Visual Purple The serving size woman may be on your side. A number of evidence-based sources--the one that comes to mind is the book "Mindless Eating: Why We Eat More Than We Think" by Brian Wansink--explains the cognitive biases that lead people to misjudge the amount of food that they're getting. I think that he gets into the economics of why serving sizes have increased as well. If not, others have, and it's a well-documented trend. Larger serving sizes may not be THE cause of weight problems, but it's a massively (ha!) unhelpful factor. That, and Nixon. Dave
CNY_Dave Thinker Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 133