Sylvia Browne on Montel Williams

[Stumpy]

A bit short notice but can anyone give us a report on this , please?

[Ashles]

Oh this is incredibly distasteful. Sylvia Browne had better hope there really isn't a hell, because she's in for a long stay.

No doubt she will 'predict' that the girl knew her killer,
she was happy and positive in life and is now at peace,
that there will be a vital clue to be found soon,
that the girl wishes very strongly for her killer to be caught (we know the mother wants this)
that somebody is agonising over knowledge they have of the murder and has considered going to the police

Plus the mother is already very susceptible to agree with anything Sylvia says due to the fact that she has had this horrible tragedy happen to her, and she found the body by "Mother's intuition" so she will probably be a strong believer in these things anyway.

If Sylvia has this amazing ability, why can't the murdered girl tell her quite clearly: "XXX is the killer"? This would be exremely strong evidence of Sylvia's abilities, and they could arrest and investigate the alleged killer.

[headscratcher4]

Sylvia Browne on Montel Williams -- utterly predictable....

[zakur]

I'll be able to get the transcript in a few weeks through Lexis-Nexis. In the meantime, I've been browsing some other recent transcripts. Check out this ridiculous exchange from the Aug. 4 Montel show:

WILLIAMS: Yes, ma'am. You had a question for Sylvia.

Unidentified Woman #5: Yes. I wanted to know what my animal totem was.

Ms. BROWNE: Your animal totem is a cheetah.

Woman #5: A cheetah?

WILLIAMS: Explain this to all of us so we know what she's talking about. "My animal totem," you know?

Ms. BROWNE: No. Yes, I will. You know, everybody has a animal that protects them.

WILLIAMS: She's got a cheetah.

Ms. BROWNE: Mm-hmm. She has a cheetah.

Woman #5: Not a wolf?

WILLIAMS: Why? Money?

Ms. BROWNE: You have a leopard. A monkey, no.

Woman #5: I thought it was a wolf. It's not a wolf?

Ms. BROWNE: What?

Woman #5: It's not a wolf? Cheetah.

Ms. BROWNE: Cheetah.

Woman #5: OK.

WILLIAMS: You got that? Good.

---

[wipeout]

Dangerous game. If by sheer luck Silvia ever says anything that makes a killer take her "abilities" seriously, then Silvia would be the next logical target for that killer if the killer wants to avoid identification...

[headscratcher4]

Quote:

Originally posted by zakur
I'll be able to get the transcript in a few weeks through Lexis-Nexis. In the meantime, I've been browsing some other recent transcripts. Check out this ridiculous exchange from the Aug. 4 Montel show:

WILLIAMS: Yes, ma'am. You had a question for Sylvia.

Unidentified Woman #5: Yes. I wanted to know what my animal totem was.

Ms. BROWNE: Your animal totem is a cheetah.

Woman #5: A cheetah?

WILLIAMS: Explain this to all of us so we know what she's talking about. "My animal totem," you know?

Ms. BROWNE: No. Yes, I will. You know, everybody has a animal that protects them.

WILLIAMS: She's got a cheetah.

Ms. BROWNE: Mm-hmm. She has a cheetah.

Woman #5: Not a wolf?

WILLIAMS: Why? Money?

Ms. BROWNE: You have a leopard. A monkey, no.

Woman #5: I thought it was a wolf. It's not a wolf?

Ms. BROWNE: What?

Woman #5: It's not a wolf? Cheetah.

Ms. BROWNE: Cheetah.

Woman #5: OK.

WILLIAMS: You got that? Good.

---

Actually, you didn't trascribe it correctly...what she's saying is "you got cheated..." very different from a "cheetah".

[Lucianarchy]

Good point. This is why the police (in the UK) are able to act on anonymous information.

Psychics don't have to give their details to the police in order for the police to act on that information.

A good case has been published by the police Fed in GB, unfortunately since the recent outing of the sucess in that case, that publication is no longer on line.

[Ashles]

Quote:

This is why the police (in the UK) are able to act on anonymous information.

Don't be stupid. It is so you can give information without the criminals finding out you gave it to the police. Duh...

If plausible information is given to the police anonymously they will follow it up.

Psychics will mostly just waste valuable police time, then occasionally when they have a hit just by sheer chance they dance all round the place claiming vindication.

If I phone up the police over and over in different cases telling them I have a 'feeling' that the missing person is locked up in a room in a poor area of town chained to a radiator and hungry I will sometimes be correct.

I am not psychic. Much like you Lucian.

[Lucianarchy]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashles


Psychics will mostly just waste valuable police time

Interesting claim. Now provide evidence. A spokesperson on behalf of the police will do.

[Ashles]

No, no, no. Once again you get it confused.

It is up to you to provide evidence that psychics solve crimes please. Until you can do that then psychics are wasting police time.

[Ashles]

And just so we don't get confused, as explained above, the occasional indicative result does not constitute proof, merely evidence that the laws of probability are still working.

[Ashles]

However a very brief search on the net reveals:

Why do police use psychics
Please note the sentence:
The fact here is that no psychic has ever been shown to have helped the police. They do a lot of claiming after the fact, but it's never been backed up with evidence.

Or
Do police use psychics
This study (by Det. Bruce Walstad) concludes that although 35% of policemen questioned would consider bringing in psychics (despressing figure but then people have the right to believe what they like)
In not one single instance did anyone questioned feel that the cases would not have been solved without the psychic.

Or:
People get desperate sometimes
Please note the sentence at the end:
South Wales Police, who investigated Mr Williams’ murder, said they did not contact psychics but followed all possible leads when investigating a crime.

[Dr Adequate]

Here's a BELIEVER in the value of psychics in police investigations:

". . . there is a definite need for the evaluation of the successes and failures of psychic phenomena as they relate to law enforcement before they can be recognized as a "legitimate" investigative tool...

Overall, little, if any, information was elicited from the twelve psychic participants that would provide material helpful in the investigation of the major crimes in question. . . . We are forced to conclude, based upon our results, that the usefulness of psychics as an aid in criminal investigation has not been validated."

My italics. Of course, being a believer, he hopes that one day it will be validated... ho hum.

By the way, Ashles, one word: "esure".

[Ashles]

Quote from article:
Now she calls for research to prove once and for all whether psychics should be used in police investigations.

Why is it that when someone becomes interested in something like this they asume they are the first person ever to think of it? Why did someone not point her to the reams of existing data about psychic phenomenon and say "Yes. They HAVE done these tests. That's WHY the police don't use them. They don't work."

And, yes, I forgot about esure.

[JPK]

Here is a nice little study of just one psychic wasting the polices time.

http://www.iigwest.com/carla_report.html

JPK

[Dr Adequate]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashles

And, yes, I forgot about esure.

How? HOW? HOW DID YOU FORGET ABOUT ESURE?
I think a million dollars could be coming your way. Ordinary people can't do that.

[CFLarsen]

Quote:

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
A good case has been published by the police Fed in GB, unfortunately since the recent outing of the sucess in that case, that publication is no longer on line.

I suspect that it is due to the fact that it was utterly debunked here.

Quote:

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
Interesting claim. Now provide evidence. A spokesperson on behalf of the police will do.

Quote:

"But I have never experienced that psychics have contributed to the solving of a murder case, and I know of no police precincts where a tip from a clairvoyant has led to anything".
Vice Criminal Inspector, Ringsted Police, (Denmark), John Øllegaard.

[Ashles]

Wow, Luciananarchy is so committed to this one article that she keeps referring to it, even though:

A) It is anecdotal
B) It has never been referenced by any other study/article
C) It has actually been removed from the internet
D) It was explicable by methods other than psychic ability

Time to find a new "good case" perhaps? A new single story around which to base an entire belief system?

[Marian]

Quote:

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
Interesting claim. Now provide evidence. A spokesperson on behalf of the police will do.

http://www.klaaskids.org/pg-mc-hazards.htm

That's a great article on 'psychic detectives' written by the mother of Polly Klaas (girl abducted and murdered in California).

http://www.valleyskeptic.com/psychic.htm

Quote:

Inspector Edward Ellidon of the U.K's Scotland Yard stated that:
1. Scotland Yard never approach psychics for information.
2. There is no official police psychics in England.
3. The yard does not endorse psychics in any way.
4. There is no recorded instance in England of any psychic solving a criminal case or providing evidence or information that led directly to its solution.

Quote:

nd now to the Los Angeles police dept. where according to Dan Cooke, head of the public relations for the department. "The LAPD has not, does not and will not use psychics in the investigation of crimes, period, if a psychic offers free information to us over the phone, we will listen to them politely, but we do not take them seriously. It is a waste of time."

And if you read the article, the LAPD even did a study on it.

http://northjersey.com/print.php?qst...Y3dnFlZUVFeXky

Quote:

"We don't utilize psychics," said Special Agent Bill Carter, an FBI spokesman in Washington. "It's not recognized as a science."

Quote:

"We haven't had a case that's been solved as a direct result of psychic activity," said Kym Pasqualini, president of the Nation's Missing Children's Organization and Center for Missing Adults. "We've experienced psychics who emerge who we've never heard of before. They'll start telling the family that they have information - but that they need money."

[Lisa Simpson]

So, did anyone watch Montel today to see Sylvia's patter? I was going to, but I had to take son #3 to the doctor.

[Dragon]

Quote:

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
Good point. This is why the police (in the UK) are able to act on anonymous information.

Psychics don't have to give their details to the police in order for the police to act on that information.

A good case has been published by the police Fed in GB, unfortunately since the recent outing of the sucess in that case, that publication is no longer on line.

Luci - you're at it again! Please add Post hoc ergo propter hoc to your list of fallacies.

A quick check of the Police Federation website shows that they don't have any issues online dated before January 2002.
For anyone else who's interested in the Jacqueline Poole case an excellent report can be found here.


Hi, Stumpy - how's tricks?

[Azrael 5]

Although some detail has been removed from Mia Dolan site,where it claimed she had been "called" to help with the murders of Rachel Nickell and Jill Dando(UK murders) here is a brief nuggett i found
Quote

Quote//: Mia has been called to the scenes of criminal investigations, as well as taken part in scientific tests with criminal psychologists and sports analysts to predict the outcome of events. She was one of the few psychics to predict Princess Diana's death. More topically, Mia was on Kilroy last summer, and when asked to predict what might be the outcome for Saddam Hussein, she replied that he would be 'taken out' in eight months time!
.covering numerous subjects in my field of work from solving criminal investigations.....
There you go,tell Scotland yard spokesman,quick.lol

[Flaherty]

Quote:

Originally posted by zakur
I'll be able to get the transcript in a few weeks through Lexis-Nexis. In the meantime, I've been browsing some other recent transcripts. Check out this ridiculous exchange from the Aug. 4 Montel show:

WILLIAMS: Yes, ma'am. You had a question for Sylvia.

Unidentified Woman #5: Yes. I wanted to know what my animal totem was.

You know, I enjoyed reading Clan of the Cave Bear as much as anyone, but I didn't think it was describing reality. I hope idiots like this can't find the voting booth.

[Lucianarchy]

Exactly. The evidence is that psychics do indeed work with the police, that they don not waste their time, but the police can't use them in an official capacity because there is no legal proof for 'psychic' intelligence. The police still work with them, never the less, they just can't employ them. The PolFed article demonstrates the terrible tragedy that had the police been able to act on the information earlier, the killer (Rourk) may have not been able to kill again. Yet he did, and was not caught until recently when DNA evidence became admissable. Thanfully, todays police are becoming more open-minded and will follow up the intelligence passed to them by psychic means. It just has to go as anonymous.

[CFLarsen]

Quote:

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
Exactly. The evidence is that psychics do indeed work with the police, that they don not waste their time, but the police can't use them in an official capacity because there is no legal proof for 'psychic' intelligence. The police still work with them, never the less, they just can't employ them. The PolFed article demonstrates the terrible tragedy that had the police been able to act on the information earlier, the killer (Rourk) may have not been able to kill again. Yet he did, and was not caught until recently when DNA evidence became admissable. Thanfully, todays police are becoming more open-minded and will follow up the intelligence passed to them by psychic means. It just has to go as anonymous.

Why doesn't any of this evidence ever show up in court?

[Ashles]

Quote:

Exactly. The evidence is that psychics do indeed work with the police, that they don not waste their time, but the police can't use them in an official capacity because there is no legal proof for 'psychic' intelligence. The police still work with them, never the less, they just can't employ them. The PolFed article demonstrates the terrible tragedy that had the police been able to act on the information earlier, the killer (Rourk) may have not been able to kill again. Yet he did, and was not caught until recently when DNA evidence became admissable. Thanfully, todays police are becoming more open-minded and will follow up the intelligence passed to them by psychic means. It just has to go as anonymous.

Just so no-one is unclear what this means in actual practicality:

If ANYONE contacts the police with information the police are obliged to act on that. So in this sense the police 'work' with psychics, crazy people, criminals, children, serial killers and any human being capable of contacting the police
The police, as policy, DO NOT contact psychics and ask for their opinion. This has been verified over and over directly from Scotland Yard, The Metropolitan Police and The Welsh Police. Also several US forces as mentioned on another thread. (see below)
The PolFed mentioned above are not representative of Police Policy as they are, in essence and unofficial union of the Police force (the Police are not allowed a Union as we know it)
The PolFed article has been removed from the internet and is not referenced anywhere else. Full details of that controversial case have been debated at length here, so I won't go into that further:
The full thread about Police and Psychics

No case has ever been solved by input from a psychic
In a survey of Police Officers not one ever felt that any case in which psychics were involved would not have been solved without them (and this survey included some VERY open-minded policemen).
Reference for Police Survey about psychics

Many psychics contact the Police - their input has never appeared to be greater than guesswork and chance - thus it is my personal opinion that they waste a lot of police time

Quote:

Thanfully, todays police are becoming more open-minded and will follow up the intelligence passed to them by psychic means. It just has to go as anonymous.

This is entirely untrue as Lucianarchy knows perfectly well. If contacted through an anonymous system like Crimestoppers then the informant (psychic or not) can remain anonymous.
Otherwise they cannot remain anonymous. Luci has been informed of this by 2 long serving police officers so I don't why why he/she is claiming otherwise. Unless it is because it sounds a bit more exciting. (EDIT: One of those police officers is on this thread so I suspect this off topic subject from Luci may be aimed at him. I can only hope Luci is not that petty...)
Police have to act on ALL possible information no matter who the source is (within obvious feasible parameters obviously).

Saying the Police work with Psychics implies a regular Police backed procedure like Forensic Pathology or DNA testing. This is untrue.

It's like saying the Police work with me because I have spoken to them before. I am not a standard part of Police procedure.
Nor are psychics.

Some more info on the subject

[Yeah_Right]

The psychics being used by police forces aside, what about that amazing pronouncement by Sylvia that an alien spacecraft cyphoned that families swimming pool? To qoute John Stewart:"Whaaaaaaaa????". Oh and also Montel apparently had aliens in his audience without noticing. I hope that Sylvia lost some credibility points with the audience at that point, but hey, I'm skeptical ya know. At least she didn't claim that is was the families dead Uncle Leroy that drained the pool, that would just sound silly. Now back to letting psychics working for police departments, well hell, why not? They now have aliens at their disposal, surely they could zip around in their pool water cooled spacecraft and find the missing individaul/s.

[JPK]

Quote:

Originally posted by Lucianarchy
Exactly. The evidence is that psychics do indeed work with the police, that they don not waste their time, but the police can't use them in an official capacity because there is no legal proof for 'psychic' intelligence. The police still work with them, never the less, they just can't employ them. The PolFed article demonstrates the terrible tragedy that had the police been able to act on the information earlier, the killer (Rourk) may have not been able to kill again. Yet he did, and was not caught until recently when DNA evidence became admissable. Thanfully, todays police are becoming more open-minded and will follow up the intelligence passed to them by psychic means. It just has to go as anonymous.

Lucianarchy,

I have worked in several nursing homes and residential homes in New Jersey. The local police recieve countless calls from these places everyday from people wanting to turn themselves, or thier roomates in for one reason or another. Some claim to have commited a crime of some kind, others claim that thier kids are stealing from them, some claim that someones "orange aura" is causing problems. (isn't orange a healing thing???" Oh well,)
The police are busy people. They deal with real crimes. They also have to deal with lonely people that know that police are a captive audience. The police have to entertain these people. I'm not saying they responded everytime someone claimed to have throw a child down the steps of the Louvre in 1935, killing them, But they had to keep a record of it. A waste of time. How many times have people had thier planes delayed because "someone" called to say they "felt" there might be a bomb on the plane"? This is crazy. Please tell me how YOU would handle this. What if this was up to you? Would you investigate every "feeling" someone has?

JPK

[Dragon]

There is another factor in the "pyschics helping police" issue and it concerns the families of murder victims (or missing persons) -

In recent years in the UK we have placed greater importance on family liasion and it is now seen as an essential part of the investigation and not just a means of communication and keeping the family "onside". Accordingly the role of family liasion officer has been enhanced and professionalised.
(One of the triggers for this was, of course, the inquiry into the murder of Stephen Lawrence where, among other things, the relationship between the police and the family broke down)

Now consider a situation where a young child goes missing and a pyschic approaches the family (or vice versa) and gives them information about what has happened to their little one. The family believe in and trust the pyschic. What are the police to do? They simply cannot afford to brush off or ignore the information - it has to be followed up as far as possible, anything less could lead to a breakdown in that essential relationship. So there could be circumstances where information from a pyschic, especially if it is specific, would be treated very seriously indeed - but not because the police thought it was any more likely to be true than the ramblings of all the nutters who phone in on these matters.