Latest Fundy Fear mongering: Universities make kids atheists

[joolz]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

OK, so Santorum made another outrageous fundamentalist claim: Colleges are turning theists into atheists: Rick Santorum Sounds 'Indoctrination' Warning Over Obama College Plan <snip>

If colleges are turning theists into atheists so what?

If colleges were turning atheists into theists so what?

Surely kids learning to think for themselves is a good thing whatever their decision on religion? The fact that it seems to be educating theists into becoming atheists is probably more a judgement on religion than education.


The criticism over education are worrying though. Sounds like he'd prefer to have voters uneducated. Maybe the republicans are learning from the Middle East....

Quote:

“It’s easier to rule uneducated people. The goal of the NDP was that Egyptians should be ignorant.”

[http://dissentmagazine.org/article/?article=4048]

Although I have a feeling I've heard that before, so this is probably not the original source.

[Kopji]

Quote:

In addition to Rick's support of ensuring that primary and secondary schools in Pennsylvania are equipped for success, he is equally committed to ensuring the every Pennsylvanian has access to higher education. Rick Santorum has supported legislative solutions that provide loans, grants, and tax incentives to make higher education more accessible and affordable.

Rick Santorum supports increased funding for Pell Grants, and since 2001 funding for the Pell Grant program has increased by 47 percent. Pennsylvania students have benefited tremendously from Pell Grants; providing a college education for our state's youth who otherwise might not be able to afford one.

In addition, Rick has worked to strengthen the many higher education institutions across Pennsylvania from community colleges to four-year universities. Through grants and policy initiatives, Rick Santorum is proud to further the priorities of Pennsylvania's colleges and universities. Further, he has sought to address the technology gap that exists at many Minority Serving Institutions by establishing a new grant program providing up to $250 million to help Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs) bridge the digital divide.

http://web.archive.org/web/200610050...Read.aspx?ID=4

From Rick's very own 2006 website.

Only in the current GOP can we find glorification of ignorance a virtue: Because Obama said something supporting education.

If Obama suddenly started supporting breathing they'd all be against that... oh wait. I suppose that would be bad.

Anyway, it's the Netherlands fault.

[Travis]

Wow, a university exists to educate students on how the universe works. Is it the university's fault that the way the universe works shows religion to be wrong?

[Andrew Wiggin]

If exposure to knowlege makes people more likely to be athiest, then belief in god is ignorant. Reality has an athiest bias.

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin

If exposure to knowlege makes people more likely to be athiest, then belief in god is ignorant. Reality has an athiest bias.

If it's good to be athy, then the athier you are, the better.

[Ryan O'Dine]

So let's break this down. In one corner, we have 18 years of constant indoctrination along social, cultural, intellectual, and theological lines, starting even before the child can speak. We have innumerable authority figures perpetually drumming it in, including parents, pastors, and mainstream figures in American culture. We have the carrot of heaven, the stick of hell, and the authority of God's own Bible itself.

In the other corner, we have a handful of conversations in a college classroom with (maybe) a biased university professor or two.

Truly, my heart goes out to those poor defenseless Christians.

[crimresearch]

Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine

So let's break this down. In one corner, we have 18 years of constant indoctrination along social, cultural, intellectual, and theological lines, starting even before the child can speak. We have innumerable authority figures perpetually drumming it in, including parents, pastors, and mainstream figures in American culture. We have the carrot of heaven, the stick of hell, and the authority of God's own Bible itself.

In the other corner, we have a handful of conversations in a college classroom with (maybe) a biased university professor or two.

Truly, my heart goes out to those poor defenseless Christians.

Well, we do have rock'n'roll, drugs, and orgies on our side...

[Vic Vega]

Only one time in my entire college career did the issue of a professor's religious beliefs come up. I had a couple of classes (Western Civ and History of the Bible) that were taught by a Unitarian minister.

The issue of his religious beliefs came up because a student asked him about it.

He was a fabulous professor, BTW.

[crimresearch]

Well, for one of my undergrad degrees, I had to take a class in religion. I figured History of the Old Testament would be a good choice.
The professor walked in and introduced himself as a former cloistered monk of 30 years, with graduate divinity degrees from Catholic University.

He started the first lecture by saying that the whole course hinged on understanding the transcendence and immanence of God.
Seeing a few puzzled looks in the room, he turned to the board, whipped off several sentences in Latin, and spun back around with a 'Ta-Da!' expression on his face.

The next meeting there were only 12 of us out of the original 40 or so, and we had a wonderful semester learning how the Israelites had blown it at every turn.

But I don't think that's what Santorum is talking about.

[NewtonTrino]

I'm actually a little surprised that more people don't think a bit of conflict in a university classroom is a good thing. In the "real world" sometimes there is real conflict. Learning how to manage it is another skill that everyone could use some practice in.

The whole idea that educating students leads them "away from god" is hilarious btw. Of course it does... they've been brainwashed and are getting the equivalent of fresh oxygen.

[Travis]

I sometimes wonder what, exactly, they think is being said in those classrooms that would have this effect.

[Skeptic Ginger]

And the latest Santorum bizarrity: Obama wanting everyone to have a chance to go to college makes Obama a snob and trying to make everyone over in his image.

[bookitty]

Facts are fun!

http://tfninsider.org/2012/02/25/heathen-u/

Quote:

The study does say that 64 percent — not 62 percent — Yikes! It’s even worse than Santorum thought! — of students enrolled in traditional four-year colleges report a decline in attendance in religious services. But what the study also says and that Santorum neglected to mention is this:

Quote:

Yet, 76 percent of those who never enrolled in college report a decline in religious service attendance.

And this:

Quote:

Simply put: Higher education is not the enemy of religiosity. Instead, young people who avoid college altogether display a more precipitous drop in their religious participation.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by bookitty

Facts are fun!

http://tfninsider.org/2012/02/25/heathen-u/

Good work, Bookitty.

[MontagK505]

Originally Posted by crimresearch

Well, we do have rock'n'roll, drugs, and orgies on our side...

Not to mention Larry Flynt.

[AvalonXQ]

Originally Posted by bookitty

Facts are fun!

http://tfninsider.org/2012/02/25/heathen-u/

So, in other words, going to college makes you about 30% less likely to decrease your level of religious observance.

That is an absolute statistics fail, Rick Santorum.

[Skepticemea]

Self-modded.

[MontagK505]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Nothing. But as I said...

University professors teaching kids to think critically is not a problem. University professors using their authority to indoctrinate kids to spout atheist dogma is the problem. The embarrassing frequency of the latter, rather than the former, is the reason Santorum is correct.

I can understand someone not talking about their views on religion if you are being exposed to criticism from peer groups or educators. (Many atheists over 40 know about keeping their mouth shut.) But, doing a complete flip because of this exposure suggests the original ideas were not too firmly grounded to begin with.

We have historical evidence of people refusing to recant, what they believed to be the truth, while faced with the most extreme threats. Someone doing a complete flip because of a frown from some professor seems ridiculous.

[crimresearch]

So basically, Santorum is claiming that Christians are of little faith?

[MontagK505]

Originally Posted by crimresearch

So basically, Santorum is claiming that Christians are of little faith?

Strong faith would discourage you from flipping. Knowledge would encourage you to change.

[joseph8th]

Aaahhhh... but yet another study (referenced here) found that Fundies become MORE dogmatic know-it-alls as they get more education -- Progressives and our ilk become more open-minded.

So really, Santorum has nothing to worry about. Meanwhile, we should be focusing our efforts on outreach to uneducated Conservatives, rather than battling their army of white male know-it-alls with degrees from Liberty U.

RE: atheist professors. I hope this is true, though I haven't seen it, myself. Religion never comes up in most of my classes, though (math/CS). Did in Philosophy, but the professor was a godbeliever.

The bigger problem is the centuries-old grip that Xtianity has on western Universities. That's a cause I'll gladly join. If academia's where all the cool atheists are.

[MontagK505]

Originally Posted by joseph8th

Aaahhhh... but yet another study (referenced here) found that Fundies become MORE dogmatic know-it-alls as they get more education -- Progressives and our ilk become more open-minded.

So really, Santorum has nothing to worry about. Meanwhile, we should be focusing our efforts on outreach to uneducated Conservatives, rather than battling their army of white male know-it-alls with degrees from Liberty U.

RE: atheist professors. I hope this is true, though I haven't seen it, myself. Religion never comes up in most of my classes, though (math/CS). Did in Philosophy, but the professor was a godbeliever.

The bigger problem is the centuries-old grip that Xtianity has on western Universities. That's a cause I'll gladly join. If academia's where all the cool atheists are.

Education is not the same as knowledge.

[AvalonXQ]

Originally Posted by joseph8th

Aaahhhh... but yet another study (referenced here) found that Fundies become MORE dogmatic know-it-alls as they get more education -- Progressives and our ilk become more open-minded.

Sorry, but that's not what the article you linked to actually describes the studies as saying.

What it says is that conservatives become more likely to hold to conservative views, while liberals are more likely to hold liberal views. The author makes the classic fallacy of conflating holding to liberal views with "being open minded". The only conclusion you can actually get from the article (other than his very strong opinion that "we liberals are right and those conservative are wrong) is that everybody gets more entrenched in idiology as they gain more education.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Sorry, but that's not what the article you linked to actually describes the studies as saying.

What it says is that conservatives become more likely to hold to conservative views, while liberals are more likely to hold liberal views. The author makes the classic fallacy of conflating holding to liberal views with "being open minded". The only conclusion you can actually get from the article (other than his very strong opinion that "we liberals are right and those conservative are wrong) is that everybody gets more entrenched in idiology as they gain more education.

There are other studies that do support the conclusions liberals are more open minded.

That doesn't mean every liberal or every conservative but as a whole, conservatives are more likely to follow dogma and that in itself is one example of how they are more closed minded than liberals.

[Astrodude]

This isn't a new claim at all. It is the oldest claim made by the anti-evolution religious lobby. Santorum is parroting very old arguments from the Leuba study and preachers' anecdotes.

William Jennings Bryan wrote:
The special reason for bringing to the attention of
Christians at this time the evil that Darwinism is do-
ing is to show that| atheists and agnostics are not only
claiming but enjoying higher rights and greater privi-
leges in this land than Christians ; that is, they are able
to propagate their viev/s at pttblic expense while Chris-
tianity must be taught at the expense of Christians.

He also said this:
...while only fifteen per cent, of the freshmen
have discarded the Christian religion, thirty per cent,
of the juniors and that forty to forty-five per cent, of
the men graduates have abandoned the cardinal prin-
ciples of the Christian faith.

See his packet, "The Menace of Darwinism"
http://archive.org/stream/menaceofda...0brya_djvu.txt