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TheRedWorm · 30th March 2012, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

They knew the blast itself would generate a large amount of radiation, but they didn't understand the effects or duration of fallout. They didn't know because there had never been any nuclear detonations before mid-1945.

No. Again, they couldn't have known about the effects of radioactive fallout because there had never been an atomic blast previously.

Even with radiation and fallout, nukes are preferable. Why? Because a great many people who are killed by them are essentially instantly vaporized. Death sucks, but at least it is over with before the person even can register that something is amiss.

Dancing David · 30th March 2012, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Corsair 115

While I understand the sentiment, on a practical level, when one is talking about only half the bombs landing within one-third of a mile of the aiming point when dropped under good conditions, it's pretty clear strategic bombing was always largely indiscriminate. Such was the technology of the time.

That is not to say, however, that the application of strategic airpower over Europe and Japan was always utilized in the best manner possible. It wasn't. Plenty of mistakes were made. If the air forces could have gone into the campaign with the knowledge it only got after the conflict, the air war could have been prosecuted far more efficiently, with fewer casualties, and to much greater economic effect. But hindsight, as they say, is always 20-20.

Strategic bombing was very much a blunt tool. But it was the only tool which existed for striking directly at the heart of enemy's war production.

I understand that, and agree, however the carpet bombing with incendiaries of civilian areas was more what I had in mind.

Certainly some of the strategic targets were effectively dealt with.

Corsair 115 · 30th March 2012, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

I understand that, and agree, however the carpet bombing with incendiaries of civilian areas was more what I had in mind.

That's what I figured, actually. It is an example of the tool being its most blunt. But even then it had notable—albeit indirect—effects on the war economy.

Captain_Swoop · 31st March 2012, 02:10 AM

We still seem to be overlook the fact that it was a different president when the Bombs were dropped.

dafydd · 31st March 2012, 03:21 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

We still seem to be overlook the fact that it was a different president when the Bombs were dropped.

I didn't.

Gawdzilla · 31st March 2012, 04:01 AM

The Truman Library has put a very large collection of documents relating to the decision to drop the bombs online.

Dancing David · 31st March 2012, 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by Corsair 115

That's what I figured, actually. It is an example of the tool being its most blunt. But even then it had notable—albeit indirect—effects on the war economy.

Yes and no, I think it is wrong, and that is just my opinion.

It kills a bunch of civilians and makes them homeless, but as far as the war effort , I don't know.

I like the part in Speer's bio (I think thats where it is ) where an Allied commander tell him that it would have been more effective if they had just killed Speer. (In regards to teh ball bearing campaign)

Gawdzilla · 31st March 2012, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Yes and no, I think it is wrong, and that is just my opinion.

True, the bomb is a bad thing. But that's today's evaluation. They didn't know much about the bomb except that it was A BIG BOMB when they were deciding whether to use it or not. In all my reading on this subject (and I've been paid to give talks about it) I've never read anything where they discussed or even mentioned lingering effects of radiation or the irradiation of people in the target area where it was to be used. Of course some scientists, like Oppenheimer, knew that pure uranium has hazardous, but the experiments done were in the lab, using small amounts and (happily) without a fission reaction of any scale being involved.

Quote:

It kills a bunch of civilians and makes them homeless, but as far as the war effort , I don't know.

Quite simply, the Emperor stepped up after the second bomb and said, "Enough!" The Soviet declaration of war must be factored into this, those two events being the tip-over point.

kmortis · 31st March 2012, 09:48 AM

OK, I've had to move 100+ posts off to AAH because you guys can't play nice. Keep it civil and on topic. The other posters are not the topic. Expect some infractions to be levied against the posts I moved, as soon as a mod can stomach reading them all.

Yes, I used my axe to make the cuts, so even if one line was unacceptable, I ditched the entire post. Don't like it? Stay within the bounds of the MA next time.

Posted By:kmortis

Corsair 115 · 31st March 2012, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Yes and no, I think it is wrong, and that is just my opinion.

I can respect the fact that people can reasonably disagree on the matter.

Originally Posted by Dancing David

It kills a bunch of civilians and makes them homeless, but as far as the war effort , I don't know.

It did, but as stated, the effects were more indirect.

When Hamburg was largely burned to the ground in July of 1943 it had a tremendous psychological impact. Albert Speer stated that another half-dozen German cities wrecked in the same way in short order would "bring Germany's armaments production to a total halt." Erhard Milch stated that "If we get just five or six more attacks like those on Hamburg, the German people will just lay down their tools, however great their willpower..." But the RAF couldn't replicate what it had done at Hamburg, so Germany recovered. As it was some four months' of war production was lost in the city. That's not inconsequential. (Whether that was worth the cost in lives is another calculation entirely.)

More generally, the European bombing campaign produced the following effects. Quoting from The Crucible of War 1939-1945 by Brereton Greenhous, Stephen J. Harris, William C. Johnson, and William G.P. Rawling:

Quote:

...was the extent to which the bomber offensive against Germany constituted a 'Second Front' long before the Allied invasion of Northwest Europe, and even when only Bomber Command was heavily involved in it. In terms of manpower alone, the Germans used between 500,000 to 800,000 workers to repair bomb damage and organize the dispersal of vital industries, labourers who could otherwise have been involved in the direct production of war materiel, while the Flak arm required some 900,000 men in 1943 and was still 656,000 strong in April 1945 - many of whom might otherwise have played a significant part in the ground war.

The enemy was also forced to allocate considerable equipment to air defence. In March 1942, as the German army was fighting critical battles in Russia and Bomber Command had not yet launched its first 'thousand' raid or its initial battle of the Ruhr, there were already 3970 heavy Flak guns deployed around German cities which could have been made into mobile artillery or bolstered anti-tank defences in the east. By September 1944 that number had grown to 10,225. Indeed, according to Albert Speer, of the 19,713 88-millimetre and 128-millimetre dual-purpose Flak/anti-tank artillery pieces produced between 1942 and 1944, only 3172 could be allocated to the army for use in the anti-armour role because of the pressure of air attack. Similarly, the threat posed by Bomber Command's night raids meant that the German night-fighter force accounted for a consistently increasing percentage of Luftwaffe front-line strength - more than 20 per cent of the total in December 1944. Several hundred of those on strength in late 1943 and 1944 were machines which could have been used to great advantage in other roles on other fronts.

There are some noteworthy indirect effects in the above. Were those effects worth the cost in human lives? That's the harder question to answer. I personally would answer yes, because war is hell and whatever one can do to shorten the hell likely means fewer deaths overall.

Originally Posted by Dancing David

I like the part in Speer's bio (I think thats where it is ) where an Allied commander tell him that it would have been more effective if they had just killed Speer. (In regards to teh ball bearing campaign)

The idea was sound—ball bearing production was one of the key choke points in war production. The problem was that at the time the USAAF attempted to knock it out it did so with an insufficiently strong bomber force (it wasn't really grasped just how many bombers were needed to truly knock out a target) and without long-range fighter escort. So that the results were ultimately disappointing should not be surprising.

The Allies were also misled in their bomb damage assessments. They get the post-strike photos of a target, see all kinds of wrecked buildings, would conclude the target had been destroyed, cross it off the list, and move to the next target. Only it was often the case that the damage on the ground was not nearly as severe as it looked from the air. So a wrecked facility wasn't really wrecked and production would be resumed in relatively short order.

The Allies also left some potentially decisive targets off the list. There was no campaign against the German electrical supply, for example, even though a sustained effort against it could have produced results as decisive as those obtained in the attacks against oil and transportation.

SpringHallConvert · 31st March 2012, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

No. Again, they couldn't have known about the effects of radioactive fallout because there had never been an atomic blast previously.

Yes. Again, because they understood that large amounts of radioactivity were released in an atomic explosion and that radioactivity was extremely dangerous to humans. They knew this from the Trinity test. Our government simply didn't care about the troops or civilians subjected to that radioactivity.

It's important to remember, this is the same criminal government that was, at the time, conducting the Tuskegee syphilis experiments against its own citizens and would just a few short years later carry out MK-ULTRA and Project 112/SHAD tests against its citizens and military personnel. Testing the effects of radioactivity, drugs, diseases, chemicals, poisons, and biological weapons on citizens was standard operating procedure for our government, so you're not going to convince anyone here that our government "didn't know".

It's total B.S.

Gawdzilla · 31st March 2012, 02:05 PM

Show me the documentation on the effects of fallout prior to August, 9th, 1945, please. I gotta see this ****.

SpringHallConvert · 31st March 2012, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Show me the documentation on the effects of fallout prior to August, 9th, 1945, please. I gotta see this ****.

Are you actually arguing that our government was completely unaware of the risks of radiation exposure to humans? That our government didn't know that radiation was dangerous?

Do you have any proof of this?

Hans · 31st March 2012, 02:25 PM

An aside, but how soon after the Trinity test did the scientists go into view the site and what measures to protect themselves did they make?

SHC you need to provide evidence for your claim.....but we all know you won't!

Gawdzilla · 31st March 2012, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

Are you actually arguing that our government was completely unaware of the risks of radiation exposure to humans? That our government didn't know that radiation was dangerous?

Do you have any proof of this?

Show the documentation. I'll be having a beer. Or fifty.

BravesFan · 31st March 2012, 02:55 PM

Burden of proof lies on you hotshot. But you don't understand what that means as you are just a waste of time troll. I still don't know why you haven't been banned. You add nothing to this forum but noise.

JohnG · 31st March 2012, 03:14 PM

Sorry, what does all this have to do with FDR?

Hans · 31st March 2012, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by JohnG

Sorry, what does all this have to do with FDR?

He hid all the documents outlining the dangers of radioactive fallout under his bed.....

SpringHallConvert · 31st March 2012, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Show the documentation. I'll be having a beer. Or fifty.

As soon as you show yours.

SpringHallConvert · 31st March 2012, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by LogicFail

Burden of proof lies on you hotshot. But you don't understand what that means as you are just a waste of time troll. I still don't know why you haven't been banned. You add nothing to this forum but noise.

No, burden of proof lies with you. You don't get to be right by default.

Sorry, but that's just the way it's going to be from now on.

Garrison · 31st March 2012, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

As soon as you show yours.

No again the burden of proof lies with you, if you wish to overturn the accepted view of Roosevelt you have to do the work.

SpringHallConvert · 31st March 2012, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by JohnG

Sorry, what does all this have to do with FDR?

A lot, actually, since Roosevelt was the concentration camp president and our country took a step backwards toward outright barbarianism after that. The stuff that followed - carpet bombing of women and children, chemical, biological, and nuclear testing on human beings - was just a natural regression.

Gawdzilla · 31st March 2012, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

No, burden of proof lies with you. You don't get to be right by default.

You haven't been right yet. And that's the way it's going to be from now on.

JohnG · 31st March 2012, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

A lot, actually, since Roosevelt was the concentration camp president and our country took a step backwards toward outright barbarianism after that. The stuff that followed - carpet bombing of women and children, chemical, biological, and nuclear testing on human beings - was just a natural regression.

By that logic, Vietnam, Watergate, Iran-Contra et al. are suitable for discussion in the "FDR" thread? Seems unwieldy.

Gawdzilla · 31st March 2012, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by JohnG

By that logic, Vietnam, Watergate, Iran-Contra et al. are suitable for discussion in the "FDR" thread? Seems unwieldy.

That's the result of weak Google-fu. Just jump on the first thing on the list and pretend it's relevant.

DGM · 31st March 2012, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

A lot, actually, since Roosevelt was the concentration camp president and our country took a step backwards toward outright barbarianism after that. The stuff that followed - carpet bombing of women and children, chemical, biological, and nuclear testing on human beings - was just a natural regression.

When did FDR do "chemical, biological, and nuclear testing on human beings"?

You can support this, right?

Gawdzilla · 31st March 2012, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by DGM

When did FDR do "chemical, biological, and nuclear testing on human beings"?

You can support this, right?

Absurd fantasy in 5, 4, 3...

SpringHallConvert · 31st March 2012, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by DGM

When did FDR do "chemical, biological, and nuclear testing on human beings"?

You can support this, right?

The Tuskegee syphilis experiments were being conducted all throughout the Roosevelt administration, and those experiments certainly qualify as biological.

Next?

Gawdzilla · 31st March 2012, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

The Tuskegee syphilis experiments were being conducted all throughout the Roosevelt administration, and those experiments certainly qualify as biological.

Next?

And FDR knew about this? Don't bother answering.

DGM · 31st March 2012, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

The Tuskegee syphilis experiments were being conducted all throughout the Roosevelt administration, and those experiments certainly qualify as biological.

Next?

Do you actually feel this answers my question?

Try again, this time with feeling.

SpringHallConvert · 31st March 2012, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

And FDR knew about this? Don't bother answering.

Sure, why wouldn't I? He was the C-in-C. Why? Are you arguing that he didn't have knowledge? That his administration had no control over or knowledge of what subordinate departments were doing?

Do you figure the government was just out of control?

Gawdzilla · 31st March 2012, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

Sure, why wouldn't I? He was the C-in-C. Why? Are you arguing that he didn't have knowledge? That his administration had no control over or knowledge of what subordinate departments were doing?

Do you figure the government was just out of control?

Prove he knew.

Back to the beer for me.

Mudcat · 31st March 2012, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

The Tuskegee syphilis experiments were being conducted all throughout the Roosevelt administration, and those experiments certainly qualify as biological.

Next?

This question is not for you SHC: Anyone know why they went through with that experiment? I Thought the doctors had said it wouldn't be good experiment or something like that and reconmended not to do the experiment.

SpringHallConvert · 31st March 2012, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Prove he knew.

Back to the beer for me.

Either way, I've got you.

If he knew, and did nothing, he was complicit.

If he didn't know, he was effectively the figurehead of a criminal, racist, out-of-control government conducting cruel biological tests on the nation's most oppressed citizens

So, take your pick, pal.

Mudcat · 31st March 2012, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

If he knew, and did nothing, he was complicit.

Highlighted the word that's tripping you up. If, the biggest two letter word in the English language. And you have to provide evidence for this 'if', too, if you want people want to take you seriously.

SpringHallConvert · 31st March 2012, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

Highlighted the word that's tripping you up. If, the biggest two letter word in the English language. And you have to provide evidence for this 'if', too, if you want people want to take you seriously.

Either way, I've got you.

If he knew, and did nothing, he was complicit.

If he didn't know, he was effectively the figurehead of a criminal, racist, out-of-control government conducting cruel biological tests on the nation's most oppressed citizens

So, take your pick, pal.

Mudcat · 31st March 2012, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

Either way, I've got you.

I think you'll find that you are wrong about that. Along with a great number of things.

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

If he knew, and did nothing, he was complicit.

If he didn't know, he was effectively the figurehead of a criminal, racist, out-of-control government conducting cruel biological tests on the nation's most oppressed citizens

Believe or not we still live in a democracy with a system of checks and ballances which means that, as powerful as the president was/is/will be they weren't/aren't/won't be the absolute ruler of everything. And there were/is/will be elements within the government that will be operating outside the law and outside of the president's approval.

But seriously what are we talking about now? Pearlharbor still? The droping of the A-bombs? The illegal testing on American citizens?

SpringHallConvert · 31st March 2012, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

There were/is/will be elements within the government that will be operating outside the law and outside of the president's approval.

You're starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist here. Elements within government operating outside the law?

I wonder if something like that could have happened on 9/11.

Quote:

But seriously what are we talking about now? Pearlharbor still? The droping of the A-bombs? The illegal testing on American citizens?

You responded to a post focusing on the Tuskegee experiments. You know, our government using its own citizens in dangerous biological tests? Tests in which they were being deliberately deceived?

Mudcat · 1st April 2012, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

You're starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist here. Elements within government operating outside the law?

There are almost always elements in any sufficiently large enough groups that'll be working towards their own agendas. This is fact, but it does not make the whole system corupt.

It is'nt a conspiracy theory until I start speculating wildly about things I have no way to verify and start accusing people who might not related to an event of being in on it. You know, like you do.

Originally Posted by SHC

I wonder if something like that could have happened on 9/11.

This has been explained to you repeatedly, but that wasn't an inside job. Could it have been avoided? Yes, which makes it even sader still.

Originally Posted by SHC

You responded to a post focusing on the Tuskegee experiments. You know, our government using its own citizens in dangerous biological tests? Tests in which they were being deliberately deceived?

These would be the very same Tuskegee experiments that we have evidence for and that the government failed to succesfully cover up by any chance?

Now don't get me wrong here I'm not defending the Tuskegee experiments here but it was precisely because of things just like it we have such systems of checks and balances in place. It's not perfect, but it does make it hard for the government to get away with such things.

Gawdzilla · 1st April 2012, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

Either way, I've got you.

If he knew, and did nothing, he was complicit.

If he didn't know, he was effectively the figurehead of a criminal, racist, out-of-control government conducting cruel biological tests on the nation's most oppressed citizens

So, take your pick, pal.

Wow, small minds can only think of two options I guess. You can try to tear down FDR, but an ant attacking Mt. Rushmore has a better chance.

30th March 2012, 06:27 PM	#241
TheRedWorm I AM the Red Worm! Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Body: Michigan, Heart: Chicago Posts: 3,997	Originally Posted by SpitfireIX They knew the blast itself would generate a large amount of radiation, but they didn't understand the effects or duration of fallout. They didn't know because there had never been any nuclear detonations before mid-1945. No. Again, they couldn't have known about the effects of radioactive fallout because there had never been an atomic blast previously. Even with radiation and fallout, nukes are preferable. Why? Because a great many people who are killed by them are essentially instantly vaporized. Death sucks, but at least it is over with before the person even can register that something is amiss.
	__________________ See I'm not a monster, I'm just ahead of the curve. -Joker Working them to death is murder. Making them live like pigs and dying from disease is murder. Shooting them next to a ditch is murder. Digging them up and burning them to hide your murder, is extra credit evil. -beachnut

30th March 2012, 06:29 PM	#242
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,931	Originally Posted by Corsair 115 While I understand the sentiment, on a practical level, when one is talking about only half the bombs landing within one-third of a mile of the aiming point when dropped under good conditions, it's pretty clear strategic bombing was always largely indiscriminate. Such was the technology of the time. That is not to say, however, that the application of strategic airpower over Europe and Japan was always utilized in the best manner possible. It wasn't. Plenty of mistakes were made. If the air forces could have gone into the campaign with the knowledge it only got after the conflict, the air war could have been prosecuted far more efficiently, with fewer casualties, and to much greater economic effect. But hindsight, as they say, is always 20-20. Strategic bombing was very much a blunt tool. But it was the only tool which existed for striking directly at the heart of enemy's war production. I understand that, and agree, however the carpet bombing with incendiaries of civilian areas was more what I had in mind. Certainly some of the strategic targets were effectively dealt with.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

30th March 2012, 10:47 PM	#243
Corsair 115 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 8,684	Originally Posted by Dancing David I understand that, and agree, however the carpet bombing with incendiaries of civilian areas was more what I had in mind. That's what I figured, actually. It is an example of the tool being its most blunt. But even then it had notable—albeit indirect—effects on the war economy.
	__________________ "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win."

31st March 2012, 03:21 AM	#245
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop We still seem to be overlook the fact that it was a different president when the Bombs were dropped. I didn't.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

31st March 2012, 04:01 AM	#246
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,862	The Truman Library has put a very large collection of documents relating to the decision to drop the bombs online.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

31st March 2012, 02:10 AM	#244
Captain_Swoop Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 3,980	We still seem to be overlook the fact that it was a different president when the Bombs were dropped.

31st March 2012, 06:22 AM	#247
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,931	Originally Posted by Corsair 115 That's what I figured, actually. It is an example of the tool being its most blunt. But even then it had notable—albeit indirect—effects on the war economy. Yes and no, I think it is wrong, and that is just my opinion. It kills a bunch of civilians and makes them homeless, but as far as the war effort , I don't know. I like the part in Speer's bio (I think thats where it is ) where an Allied commander tell him that it would have been more effective if they had just killed Speer. (In regards to teh ball bearing campaign)
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

31st March 2012, 07:00 AM	#248
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,862	Originally Posted by Dancing David Yes and no, I think it is wrong, and that is just my opinion. True, the bomb is a bad thing. But that's today's evaluation. They didn't know much about the bomb except that it was A BIG BOMB when they were deciding whether to use it or not. In all my reading on this subject (and I've been paid to give talks about it) I've never read anything where they discussed or even mentioned lingering effects of radiation or the irradiation of people in the target area where it was to be used. Of course some scientists, like Oppenheimer, knew that pure uranium has hazardous, but the experiments done were in the lab, using small amounts and (happily) without a fission reaction of any scale being involved. Quote: It kills a bunch of civilians and makes them homeless, but as far as the war effort , I don't know. Quite simply, the Emperor stepped up after the second bomb and said, "Enough!" The Soviet declaration of war must be factored into this, those two events being the tip-over point.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

31st March 2012, 12:01 PM	#250
Corsair 115 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 8,684	Originally Posted by Dancing David Yes and no, I think it is wrong, and that is just my opinion. I can respect the fact that people can reasonably disagree on the matter. Originally Posted by Dancing David It kills a bunch of civilians and makes them homeless, but as far as the war effort , I don't know. It did, but as stated, the effects were more indirect. When Hamburg was largely burned to the ground in July of 1943 it had a tremendous psychological impact. Albert Speer stated that another half-dozen German cities wrecked in the same way in short order would "bring Germany's armaments production to a total halt." Erhard Milch stated that "If we get just five or six more attacks like those on Hamburg, the German people will just lay down their tools, however great their willpower..." But the RAF couldn't replicate what it had done at Hamburg, so Germany recovered. As it was some four months' of war production was lost in the city. That's not inconsequential. (Whether that was worth the cost in lives is another calculation entirely.) More generally, the European bombing campaign produced the following effects. Quoting from The Crucible of War 1939-1945 by Brereton Greenhous, Stephen J. Harris, William C. Johnson, and William G.P. Rawling: Quote: ...was the extent to which the bomber offensive against Germany constituted a 'Second Front' long before the Allied invasion of Northwest Europe, and even when only Bomber Command was heavily involved in it. In terms of manpower alone, the Germans used between 500,000 to 800,000 workers to repair bomb damage and organize the dispersal of vital industries, labourers who could otherwise have been involved in the direct production of war materiel, while the Flak arm required some 900,000 men in 1943 and was still 656,000 strong in April 1945 - many of whom might otherwise have played a significant part in the ground war. The enemy was also forced to allocate considerable equipment to air defence. In March 1942, as the German army was fighting critical battles in Russia and Bomber Command had not yet launched its first 'thousand' raid or its initial battle of the Ruhr, there were already 3970 heavy Flak guns deployed around German cities which could have been made into mobile artillery or bolstered anti-tank defences in the east. By September 1944 that number had grown to 10,225. Indeed, according to Albert Speer, of the 19,713 88-millimetre and 128-millimetre dual-purpose Flak/anti-tank artillery pieces produced between 1942 and 1944, only 3172 could be allocated to the army for use in the anti-armour role because of the pressure of air attack. Similarly, the threat posed by Bomber Command's night raids meant that the German night-fighter force accounted for a consistently increasing percentage of Luftwaffe front-line strength - more than 20 per cent of the total in December 1944. Several hundred of those on strength in late 1943 and 1944 were machines which could have been used to great advantage in other roles on other fronts. There are some noteworthy indirect effects in the above. Were those effects worth the cost in human lives? That's the harder question to answer. I personally would answer yes, because war is hell and whatever one can do to shorten the hell likely means fewer deaths overall. Originally Posted by Dancing David I like the part in Speer's bio (I think thats where it is ) where an Allied commander tell him that it would have been more effective if they had just killed Speer. (In regards to teh ball bearing campaign) The idea was sound—ball bearing production was one of the key choke points in war production. The problem was that at the time the USAAF attempted to knock it out it did so with an insufficiently strong bomber force (it wasn't really grasped just how many bombers were needed to truly knock out a target) and without long-range fighter escort. So that the results were ultimately disappointing should not be surprising. The Allies were also misled in their bomb damage assessments. They get the post-strike photos of a target, see all kinds of wrecked buildings, would conclude the target had been destroyed, cross it off the list, and move to the next target. Only it was often the case that the damage on the ground was not nearly as severe as it looked from the air. So a wrecked facility wasn't really wrecked and production would be resumed in relatively short order. The Allies also left some potentially decisive targets off the list. There was no campaign against the German electrical supply, for example, even though a sustained effort against it could have produced results as decisive as those obtained in the attacks against oil and transportation.
	__________________ "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win." Last edited by Corsair 115; 31st March 2012 at 12:02 PM.

31st March 2012, 02:01 PM	#251
SpringHallConvert Banned Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,272	Originally Posted by SpitfireIX No. Again, they couldn't have known about the effects of radioactive fallout because there had never been an atomic blast previously. Yes. Again, because they understood that large amounts of radioactivity were released in an atomic explosion and that radioactivity was extremely dangerous to humans. They knew this from the Trinity test. Our government simply didn't care about the troops or civilians subjected to that radioactivity. It's important to remember, this is the same criminal government that was, at the time, conducting the Tuskegee syphilis experiments against its own citizens and would just a few short years later carry out MK-ULTRA and Project 112/SHAD tests against its citizens and military personnel. Testing the effects of radioactivity, drugs, diseases, chemicals, poisons, and biological weapons on citizens was standard operating procedure for our government, so you're not going to convince anyone here that our government "didn't know". It's total B.S.
	Last edited by SpringHallConvert; 31st March 2012 at 02:03 PM.

31st March 2012, 02:05 PM	#252
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,862	Show me the documentation on the effects of fallout prior to August, 9th, 1945, please. I gotta see this ****.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

31st March 2012, 02:24 PM	#253
SpringHallConvert Banned Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,272	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Show me the documentation on the effects of fallout prior to August, 9th, 1945, please. I gotta see this ****. Are you actually arguing that our government was completely unaware of the risks of radiation exposure to humans? That our government didn't know that radiation was dangerous? Do you have any proof of this?

31st March 2012, 02:25 PM	#254
Hans Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: NW United States Posts: 2,860	An aside, but how soon after the Trinity test did the scientists go into view the site and what measures to protect themselves did they make? SHC you need to provide evidence for your claim.....but we all know you won't!
	Last edited by Hans; 31st March 2012 at 02:59 PM.

31st March 2012, 02:33 PM	#255
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,862	Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert Are you actually arguing that our government was completely unaware of the risks of radiation exposure to humans? That our government didn't know that radiation was dangerous? Do you have any proof of this? Show the documentation. I'll be having a beer. Or fifty.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

31st March 2012, 02:55 PM	#256
BravesFan Banned Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Ocean Springs, Ms Posts: 1,784	Burden of proof lies on you hotshot. But you don't understand what that means as you are just a waste of time troll. I still don't know why you haven't been banned. You add nothing to this forum but noise.

31st March 2012, 03:14 PM	#257
JohnG Pedantic Bore Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Abandon All Hope Posts: 4,450	Sorry, what does all this have to do with FDR?
	__________________ Do not weep. Do not wax indignant. Understand. - Baruch Spinoza You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. -Harlan Ellison

31st March 2012, 03:18 PM	#258
Hans Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: NW United States Posts: 2,860	Originally Posted by JohnG Sorry, what does all this have to do with FDR? He hid all the documents outlining the dangers of radioactive fallout under his bed.....

31st March 2012, 03:25 PM	#259
SpringHallConvert Banned Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,272	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Show the documentation. I'll be having a beer. Or fifty. As soon as you show yours.

31st March 2012, 03:26 PM	#260
SpringHallConvert Banned Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,272	Originally Posted by LogicFail Burden of proof lies on you hotshot. But you don't understand what that means as you are just a waste of time troll. I still don't know why you haven't been banned. You add nothing to this forum but noise. No, burden of proof lies with you. You don't get to be right by default. Sorry, but that's just the way it's going to be from now on.

31st March 2012, 03:27 PM	#261
Garrison Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Milton Keynes UK Posts: 1,457	Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert As soon as you show yours. No again the burden of proof lies with you, if you wish to overturn the accepted view of Roosevelt you have to do the work.

31st March 2012, 03:29 PM	#262
SpringHallConvert Banned Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,272	Originally Posted by JohnG Sorry, what does all this have to do with FDR? A lot, actually, since Roosevelt was the concentration camp president and our country took a step backwards toward outright barbarianism after that. The stuff that followed - carpet bombing of women and children, chemical, biological, and nuclear testing on human beings - was just a natural regression.

31st March 2012, 03:39 PM	#263
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,862	Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert No, burden of proof lies with you. You don't get to be right by default. You haven't been right yet. And that's the way it's going to be from now on.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

31st March 2012, 03:45 PM	#264
JohnG Pedantic Bore Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Abandon All Hope Posts: 4,450	Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert A lot, actually, since Roosevelt was the concentration camp president and our country took a step backwards toward outright barbarianism after that. The stuff that followed - carpet bombing of women and children, chemical, biological, and nuclear testing on human beings - was just a natural regression. By that logic, Vietnam, Watergate, Iran-Contra et al. are suitable for discussion in the "FDR" thread? Seems unwieldy.
	__________________ Do not weep. Do not wax indignant. Understand. - Baruch Spinoza You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. -Harlan Ellison

31st March 2012, 03:50 PM	#265
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,862	Originally Posted by JohnG By that logic, Vietnam, Watergate, Iran-Contra et al. are suitable for discussion in the "FDR" thread? Seems unwieldy. That's the result of weak Google-fu. Just jump on the first thing on the list and pretend it's relevant.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

31st March 2012, 04:28 PM	#266
DGM #4 Join Date: May 2007 Location: West of Northshore MA Posts: 14,534	Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert A lot, actually, since Roosevelt was the concentration camp president and our country took a step backwards toward outright barbarianism after that. The stuff that followed - carpet bombing of women and children, chemical, biological, and nuclear testing on human beings - was just a natural regression. When did FDR do "chemical, biological, and nuclear testing on human beings"? You can support this, right?
	__________________ Join the team, Show us what your machine can do (or just contribute to a good cause)Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 "Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

31st March 2012, 04:34 PM	#267
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,862	Originally Posted by DGM When did FDR do "chemical, biological, and nuclear testing on human beings"? You can support this, right? Absurd fantasy in 5, 4, 3...
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

31st March 2012, 04:51 PM	#268
SpringHallConvert Banned Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,272	Originally Posted by DGM When did FDR do "chemical, biological, and nuclear testing on human beings"? You can support this, right? The Tuskegee syphilis experiments were being conducted all throughout the Roosevelt administration, and those experiments certainly qualify as biological. Next?

31st March 2012, 04:53 PM	#269
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,862	Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert The Tuskegee syphilis experiments were being conducted all throughout the Roosevelt administration, and those experiments certainly qualify as biological. Next? And FDR knew about this? Don't bother answering.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

31st March 2012, 05:03 PM	#270
DGM #4 Join Date: May 2007 Location: West of Northshore MA Posts: 14,534	Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert The Tuskegee syphilis experiments were being conducted all throughout the Roosevelt administration, and those experiments certainly qualify as biological. Next? Do you actually feel this answers my question? Try again, this time with feeling.
	__________________ Join the team, Show us what your machine can do (or just contribute to a good cause)Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 "Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

31st March 2012, 07:46 PM	#271
SpringHallConvert Banned Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,272	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla And FDR knew about this? Don't bother answering. Sure, why wouldn't I? He was the C-in-C. Why? Are you arguing that he didn't have knowledge? That his administration had no control over or knowledge of what subordinate departments were doing? Do you figure the government was just out of control?

31st March 2012, 07:50 PM	#272
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,862	Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert Sure, why wouldn't I? He was the C-in-C. Why? Are you arguing that he didn't have knowledge? That his administration had no control over or knowledge of what subordinate departments were doing? Do you figure the government was just out of control? Prove he knew. Back to the beer for me.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

31st March 2012, 07:57 PM	#273
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,770	Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert The Tuskegee syphilis experiments were being conducted all throughout the Roosevelt administration, and those experiments certainly qualify as biological. Next? This question is not for you SHC: Anyone know why they went through with that experiment? I Thought the doctors had said it wouldn't be good experiment or something like that and reconmended not to do the experiment.
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven.

31st March 2012, 08:24 PM	#274
SpringHallConvert Banned Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,272	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Prove he knew. Back to the beer for me. Either way, I've got you. If he knew, and did nothing, he was complicit. If he didn't know, he was effectively the figurehead of a criminal, racist, out-of-control government conducting cruel biological tests on the nation's most oppressed citizens So, take your pick, pal.

31st March 2012, 09:23 PM	#275
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,770	Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert If he knew, and did nothing, he was complicit. Highlighted the word that's tripping you up. If, the biggest two letter word in the English language. And you have to provide evidence for this 'if', too, if you want people want to take you seriously.
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven.

31st March 2012, 09:26 PM	#276
SpringHallConvert Banned Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,272	Originally Posted by Mudcat Highlighted the word that's tripping you up. If, the biggest two letter word in the English language. And you have to provide evidence for this 'if', too, if you want people want to take you seriously. Either way, I've got you. If he knew, and did nothing, he was complicit. If he didn't know, he was effectively the figurehead of a criminal, racist, out-of-control government conducting cruel biological tests on the nation's most oppressed citizens So, take your pick, pal.