[Split Thread] Flabio's dowsing claim - Page 2

Pixel42 · 31st March 2012, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by jojonete

I'm not sure why nobody has asked these questions directly yet

I can't answer for anyone else, but in my case it's because it's abundantly clear to me that flabio doesn't have the slightest clue what the answers are.

From the video he has posted it's clear he hasn't even grasped what the ideomotor effect is yet, and why a demonstration of it is not a demonstration that dowsing is capable of detecting underground water/pipes/cables whose position the dowser doesn't already know - which is what he would need to demonstrate to win the MDC.

flabio · 31st March 2012, 03:15 AM

Nope, it's not the ideomotor effect at all. There's no time or room for make believe in my line of work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_effect

Pixel42 · 31st March 2012, 03:36 AM

Originally Posted by flabio

Nope, it's not the ideomotor effect at all.

The only way you'd know that is if you'd done a double blind test. Please describe the protocol you used to do one, and how much better than chance the results you obtained were.

Quote:

There's no time or room for make believe in my line of work.

There is nothing make believe about the ideomotor effect. It's reality is well documented.

Quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_effect

Yep, that's the one. Here's another good article about it:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ideomotor.html

EHocking · 31st March 2012, 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by flabio

... I honestly thought there would have long since been a scientific explanation on how dowsing works by now.

There is.

Originally Posted by flabio

Really, there's nothing to it.

"Science" came to the same conclusion as you.

GzuzKryzt · 31st March 2012, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by flabio

Neat, my very own thread. Thanks guys!!!

Do you think I'd have gone through the trouble of making this YT video today if I were merely joking around?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhSDe...ature=youtu.be

I will not just take your word that there are actual gas lines where you say they are. You may be right, you may be wrong. Without verification of the gas line being there, this video does not prove very much.

Have you thought about doing a self-test where the results can be verified, e.g. the one I proposed earlier?

Lanzy · 31st March 2012, 01:40 PM

From that video you have GOT to be a troll. What was that supposed to prove??
I think I will wait behind a tree for you. Guess what I will yell.

Matty1973 · 31st March 2012, 04:54 PM

From the Wikipedia page for Troll

"In Old Norse sources, beings described as trolls dwell in isolated rocks, mountains, or caves, live together in small family units, and are rarely helpful to human beings."

An almost text book description of the second video!

Susan Gerbic · 31st March 2012, 07:10 PM

What worries me is that "he does this all the time at work" and that he "is going to redowse these lines and put the flags back in the earth".

So

Somewhere there are yellow flags stuck in a field showing where the gas lines are (or maybe not)

The San Bruno, CA gas line explosion is only a couple hours from where I live, many people were killed and a neighborhood burned to the ground. We take this kind of thing very seriously.

The idea that there is someone out there deciding where gas lines are by dowsing makes me uncomfortable. The idea that he said his co-workers also think this is okay makes me frightened.

Wonder if Tim Farley has any dowsing horror stories on his www.whatstheharm.net site?

Susan Gerbic · 31st March 2012, 07:13 PM

Apparently Tim does have something on dowsing. No gas explosions.

http://whatstheharm.net/dowsing.html

Southwind17 · 1st April 2012, 12:16 AM

Originally Posted by Matty1973

I don't know if Flabio is a troll or not, but in his other video he explains how it is funny to hide behind a rock in the park and shout "RETARD" at tourists as they pass by.

Jeez - if Flabio moved in next to me I'd have my house on the market the very next day. Weird!

Originally Posted by flabio

Nope, it's not the ideomotor effect at all. There's no time or room for make believe in my line of work.

jojonete · 1st April 2012, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by jojonete

I'm not sure why nobody has asked these questions directly yet

Originally Posted by Pixel42

I can't answer for anyone else, but in my case it's because it's abundantly clear to me that flabio doesn't have the slightest clue what the answers are.

I thought posting the questions would be a good idea even if he had no idea about the answers.
In part, the goal of the questions was to find out if flabio is a troll. If he were, he'd just ignore the questions and go on with some random gibberish. If he's not, he'd do a very good effort to answer the questions.

If he did honestly try to answer the questions, that would (deservedly) greatly reduce trolling accusations on him. Furthermore, the answers could be used to design a protocol or, in the case the answer is "no idea", to tell flabio to go on testing until he got answers.

Flabio's answer was "Nope, it's not the ideomotor effect at all", which counts quite well as ignoring the questions and going on with random gibberish. Now I'll add myself to the "obvious troll" club and happily go to sleep (it's 12:36 AM here).

flabio · 1st April 2012, 04:03 PM

Being deemed a troll by a bunch of trolls is really quite laughable to say the least. If I wanted to troll or engage in a flame war I'd do that on an appropriate troll board.

Anyways...

I've found someone who is willing to put me through the blindfold test, and should have YT vids up in the next couple of days. The fella who's agreed to test me also has no faith in my ability to dowse what so ever, not unlike everyone here. This should be good, do stay tuned...

wardenclyffe · 1st April 2012, 04:07 PM

Good for you. I hope it inspires you to actually apply for a one of the challenges and earn yourself a big cash prize. Otherwise this thread should probably be moved out of the challenges subforum and to the general skepticism subforum.

Ward

Montag451 · 1st April 2012, 05:34 PM

Well that was compelling. Totally unequivocal proof of something or other.

I thought you were supposed to find something you didn't know where it was or have I missed the point?

Next time I put my car keys on the table I'll dowse for them there then.

Southwind17 · 1st April 2012, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by flabio

I've found someone who is willing to put me through the blindfold test, and should have YT vids up in the next couple of days. The fella who's agreed to test me also has no faith in my ability to dowse what so ever, not unlike everyone here. This should be good, do stay tuned...

Meantime here's a prediction ($1m prize if correct?!): somehow I think we're going to be disappointed.

Pixel42 · 1st April 2012, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by flabio

I've found someone who is willing to put me through the blindfold test

If you mean a double blinded test, then good. As has been pointed out until you have successfully located something whose position you did not already know, under circumstances where all sources of information other than dowsing have been carefully and methodically eliminated, you yourself cannot know for sure whether or not dowsing works.

It might be a good idea to post the test protocol you intend to use here first. There wouldn't be much point in you going to the time and trouble of doing a test if there are fundamental flaws in it, would there?

Mashuna · 1st April 2012, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by flabio

I've found someone who is willing to put me through the blindfold test, and should have YT vids up in the next couple of days. The fella who's agreed to test me also has no faith in my ability to dowse what so ever, not unlike everyone here. This should be good, do stay tuned...

As Pixel42 notes, a blindfold test is not the same as a double blind test. Could you clarify what you're actually going to be doing in your test?

Southwind17 · 1st April 2012, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by flabio

I've found someone who is willing to put me through the blindfold test ...

If Flabio is confusing 'blindfold' test with 'blind' test I think we could be here for the long haul!

Southwind17 · 1st April 2012, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by Mashuna

As Pixel42 notes, a blindfold test is not the same as a double blind test. Could you clarify what you're actually going to be doing in your test?

I'm not sure a double-blind test is necessary, or even practicable. A simple blind test (but definitely not 'blindfold' test) should suffice.

Pixel42 · 2nd April 2012, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by Southwind17

I'm not sure a double-blind test is necessary, or even practicable. A simple blind test (but definitely not 'blindfold' test) should suffice.

It's essential that no-one who knows where whatever it is flabio is dowsing for is buried is present during the test, as they can inadvertantly give him clues with their body language. So the test must be double blinded: neither the testee nor the observers can know where the targets are.

ETA: http://www.skepdic.com/control.html

Quote:

A double-blind test is a control group test where neither the evaluator nor the subject knows which items are controls

flabio · 2nd April 2012, 12:33 AM

I was thinking a blindfold and a duct taped full face motorcycle helmet might be convincing. And like I've said before, I've only ever dowsed service lines before, so that's what I intend to stick with...

Pixel42 · 2nd April 2012, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by flabio

I was thinking a blindfold and a duct taped full face motorcycle helmet might be convincing.

You need to demonstrate that you can tell the difference between ground which has a service line running under it from ground which does not, when there are no visual clues as to which is which, significantly more often than would be expected by chance.

Usually this is done by someone setting up an area with several marked spots, some of which have had whatever it is the dowser thinks he can detect buried in them and some of which have not, and then leaving whilst the dowser dowses each spot and identifies which is which. As long as there is no visual clue which is which, the dowser does not need to be blindfolded whilst he does this. As most dowsers need to see how their dowsing rods are reacting to determine whether they are getting a positive response, it's usually impractical to blindfold them.

Once the dowser has marked which spots he thinks are which, the guy who set it up returns and tells him if he is right.

The odds of getting the right spot by chance can be calculated beforehand. For example if there are 10 spots only one of which has the dowsing target buried in it, the chances of finding the right spot by chance is 1:10. For the JREF preliminary test, applicants are typically required to beat chance odds of 1:1000.

Mashuna · 2nd April 2012, 01:56 AM

Originally Posted by flabio

I was thinking a blindfold and a duct taped full face motorcycle helmet might be convincing. And like I've said before, I've only ever dowsed service lines before, so that's what I intend to stick with...

A double-blind test would be convincing, you being blindfolded would not.

Dumb All Over · 2nd April 2012, 05:21 AM

flabio, it sounds like you have no clue what a double-blind test is. Here is a hint: it has nothing to do with a blindfold.

Double-blind Test

Czarcasm · 2nd April 2012, 11:31 AM

I am looking forward to flabio's next You Tube video, in which he points sticks at yellow flags while wearing two blindfolds.

Dumb All Over · 2nd April 2012, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

I am looking forward to flabio's next You Tube video, in which he points sticks at yellow flags while wearing two blindfolds.

Yeah. Wearing two blindfolds while dowsing gives a whole new meaning to double-blind testing.

JohnnyG · 2nd April 2012, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by Dumb All Over

Yeah. Wearing two blindfolds while dowsing gives a whole new meaning to double-blind testing.

Yes, put one blindfold on each dowsing rod - that would prove the rods are not reacting because they see the flags.

Southwind17 · 2nd April 2012, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

It's essential that no-one who knows where whatever it is flabio is dowsing for is buried is present during the test, as they can inadvertantly give him clues with their body language. So the test must be double blinded: neither the testee nor the observers can know where the targets are.

I agree, but I don't consider that the test setters not being present is the essence of a double-blind test. A truly double-blind test would require that nobody knows where the burial site is/are, whether present at the testing or not. And that was my point - that's not practicable - hence a simple blind test, albeit with the test setters then vacating the test area.

Southwind17 · 2nd April 2012, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Dumb All Over

Yeah. Wearing two blindfolds while dowsing gives a whole new meaning to double-blind testing.

Which is what Flabio means by wearing a blindfold and a duct-taped full-face crash helmet, I think!

As I wrote earlier, we could be here for the long haul!

rjh01 · 2nd April 2012, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Southwind17

Which is what Flabio means by wearing a blindfold and a duct-taped full-face crash helmet, I think!

As I wrote earlier, we could be here for the long haul!

Very long haul as he has now been quietly suspended.

wardenclyffe · 3rd April 2012, 12:01 AM

Well, that wasn't fun while it lasted. But if Flabio is still reading this thread (and we know he is), and he's at all serious about applying for a cash prize; he's got all the info he needs.

Ward

Lanzy · 3rd April 2012, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

Very long haul as he has now been quietly suspended.

He is now hanging from something?

Saule · 3rd April 2012, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Lanzy

He is now hanging from something?

Some rods.

realpaladin · 3rd April 2012, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by Saule

Some rods.

Blindfolded.

Southwind17 · 4th April 2012, 04:04 AM

Originally Posted by realpaladin

Blindfolded.

Double layered.

rjh01 · 4th April 2012, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by Lanzy

He is now hanging from something?

We will never know as he probably will not come back. Not as Flabio anyway.

johnnyawe · 5th April 2012, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

Very long haul as he has now been quietly suspended.

Why was he suspended? This was just starting to get fun.

I admit I was unable to tell if he was "trolling" or was serious.

rjh01 · 5th April 2012, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by johnnyawe

Why was he suspended? This was just starting to get fun.

I admit I was unable to tell if he was "trolling" or was serious.

The answer is in this thread.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=233532

Lamuella · 12th April 2012, 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by Southwind17

I'm not sure a double-blind test is necessary, or even practicable. A simple blind test (but definitely not 'blindfold' test) should suffice.

I could think of a few ways you could make a practical double blind test, depending on what Flabio claims he can dowse for.

Southwind17 · 12th April 2012, 06:01 AM

Originally Posted by Lamuella

I could think of a few ways you could make a practical double blind test, depending on what Flabio claims he can dowse for.

I'm sure most of us could. Still unnecessary, though.

31st March 2012, 12:18 AM	#41
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 4,241	Originally Posted by jojonete I'm not sure why nobody has asked these questions directly yet I can't answer for anyone else, but in my case it's because it's abundantly clear to me that flabio doesn't have the slightest clue what the answers are. From the video he has posted it's clear he hasn't even grasped what the ideomotor effect is yet, and why a demonstration of it is not a demonstration that dowsing is capable of detecting underground water/pipes/cables whose position the dowser doesn't already know - which is what he would need to demonstrate to win the MDC.
	__________________ "The correct scientific response to anything that is not understood is always to look harder for the explanation, not give up and assume a supernatural cause". David Attenborough.

31st March 2012, 03:15 AM	#42
flabio Suspended Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 45	Nope, it's not the ideomotor effect at all. There's no time or room for make believe in my line of work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_effect
flabio Suspended Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 45

31st March 2012, 03:36 AM	#43
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 4,241	Originally Posted by flabio Nope, it's not the ideomotor effect at all. The only way you'd know that is if you'd done a double blind test. Please describe the protocol you used to do one, and how much better than chance the results you obtained were. Quote: There's no time or room for make believe in my line of work. There is nothing make believe about the ideomotor effect. It's reality is well documented. Quote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_effect Yep, that's the one. Here's another good article about it: http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ideomotor.html
	__________________ "The correct scientific response to anything that is not understood is always to look harder for the explanation, not give up and assume a supernatural cause". David Attenborough.

31st March 2012, 04:23 AM	#44
EHocking Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,410	Originally Posted by flabio ... I honestly thought there would have long since been a scientific explanation on how dowsing works by now. There is. Originally Posted by flabio Really, there's nothing to it. "Science" came to the same conclusion as you.
EHocking Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,410	__________________ "A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite Forum Birdwatching Webpage

31st March 2012, 09:18 AM	#45
GzuzKryzt Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 6,367	Originally Posted by flabio Neat, my very own thread. Thanks guys!!! Do you think I'd have gone through the trouble of making this YT video today if I were merely joking around? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhSDe...ature=youtu.be I will not just take your word that there are actual gas lines where you say they are. You may be right, you may be wrong. Without verification of the gas line being there, this video does not prove very much. Have you thought about doing a self-test where the results can be verified, e.g. the one I proposed earlier?
GzuzKryzt Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 6,367

31st March 2012, 01:40 PM	#46
Lanzy Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 880	From that video you have GOT to be a troll. What was that supposed to prove?? I think I will wait behind a tree for you. Guess what I will yell.
Lanzy Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 880

31st March 2012, 04:54 PM	#47
Matty1973 Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: London Posts: 253	From the Wikipedia page for Troll "In Old Norse sources, beings described as trolls dwell in isolated rocks, mountains, or caves, live together in small family units, and are rarely helpful to human beings." An almost text book description of the second video!

31st March 2012, 07:10 PM	#48
Susan Gerbic Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Salinas Posts: 1,521	What worries me is that "he does this all the time at work" and that he "is going to redowse these lines and put the flags back in the earth". So Somewhere there are yellow flags stuck in a field showing where the gas lines are (or maybe not) The San Bruno, CA gas line explosion is only a couple hours from where I live, many people were killed and a neighborhood burned to the ground. We take this kind of thing very seriously. The idea that there is someone out there deciding where gas lines are by dowsing makes me uncomfortable. The idea that he said his co-workers also think this is okay makes me frightened. Wonder if Tim Farley has any dowsing horror stories on his www.whatstheharm.net site?
	__________________ Quit Complaining and Get Active! formerly known as sgf8

31st March 2012, 07:13 PM	#49
Susan Gerbic Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Salinas Posts: 1,521	Apparently Tim does have something on dowsing. No gas explosions. http://whatstheharm.net/dowsing.html
	__________________ Quit Complaining and Get Active! formerly known as sgf8

1st April 2012, 12:16 AM	#50
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 4,462	Originally Posted by Matty1973 I don't know if Flabio is a troll or not, but in his other video he explains how it is funny to hide behind a rock in the park and shout "RETARD" at tourists as they pass by. Jeez - if Flabio moved in next to me I'd have my house on the market the very next day. Weird! Originally Posted by flabio Nope, it's not the ideomotor effect at all. There's no time or room for make believe in my line of work.
	__________________ The views expressed here do not necessarily represent the unanimous view of all parts of my mind "Always" and "never" are two words that you should always remember never to use. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Why is it that when I ask for a pair of hands a brain comes attached?

1st April 2012, 03:36 PM	#51
jojonete Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 149	Originally Posted by jojonete I'm not sure why nobody has asked these questions directly yet Originally Posted by Pixel42 I can't answer for anyone else, but in my case it's because it's abundantly clear to me that flabio doesn't have the slightest clue what the answers are. I thought posting the questions would be a good idea even if he had no idea about the answers. In part, the goal of the questions was to find out if flabio is a troll. If he were, he'd just ignore the questions and go on with some random gibberish. If he's not, he'd do a very good effort to answer the questions. If he did honestly try to answer the questions, that would (deservedly) greatly reduce trolling accusations on him. Furthermore, the answers could be used to design a protocol or, in the case the answer is "no idea", to tell flabio to go on testing until he got answers. Flabio's answer was "Nope, it's not the ideomotor effect at all", which counts quite well as ignoring the questions and going on with random gibberish. Now I'll add myself to the "obvious troll" club and happily go to sleep (it's 12:36 AM here).
jojonete Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 149	Last edited by jojonete; 1st April 2012 at 03:38 PM. Reason: join "my" with "self" so that it says "myself" instead of "my self". Easy, right?

1st April 2012, 04:03 PM	#52
flabio Suspended Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 45	Being deemed a troll by a bunch of trolls is really quite laughable to say the least. If I wanted to troll or engage in a flame war I'd do that on an appropriate troll board. Anyways... I've found someone who is willing to put me through the blindfold test, and should have YT vids up in the next couple of days. The fella who's agreed to test me also has no faith in my ability to dowse what so ever, not unlike everyone here. This should be good, do stay tuned...
flabio Suspended Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 45

1st April 2012, 04:07 PM	#53
wardenclyffe Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,485	Good for you. I hope it inspires you to actually apply for a one of the challenges and earn yourself a big cash prize. Otherwise this thread should probably be moved out of the challenges subforum and to the general skepticism subforum. Ward
	__________________ ~~Na eth'er aa, ammre' en ank'aar'eith, d'emner'aa-, asd'reng'aather, em'n'err-aae...~ - Alenara Al'Kher'aat, aged 347

1st April 2012, 05:34 PM	#54
Montag451 Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Peru Posts: 372	Well that was compelling. Totally unequivocal proof of something or other. I thought you were supposed to find something you didn't know where it was or have I missed the point? Next time I put my car keys on the table I'll dowse for them there then.

1st April 2012, 09:08 PM	#55
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 4,462	Originally Posted by flabio I've found someone who is willing to put me through the blindfold test, and should have YT vids up in the next couple of days. The fella who's agreed to test me also has no faith in my ability to dowse what so ever, not unlike everyone here. This should be good, do stay tuned... Meantime here's a prediction ($1m prize if correct?!): somehow I think we're going to be disappointed.
	__________________ The views expressed here do not necessarily represent the unanimous view of all parts of my mind "Always" and "never" are two words that you should always remember never to use. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Why is it that when I ask for a pair of hands a brain comes attached?

1st April 2012, 11:34 PM	#56
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 4,241	Originally Posted by flabio I've found someone who is willing to put me through the blindfold test If you mean a double blinded test, then good. As has been pointed out until you have successfully located something whose position you did not already know, under circumstances where all sources of information other than dowsing have been carefully and methodically eliminated, you yourself cannot know for sure whether or not dowsing works. It might be a good idea to post the test protocol you intend to use here first. There wouldn't be much point in you going to the time and trouble of doing a test if there are fundamental flaws in it, would there?
	__________________ "The correct scientific response to anything that is not understood is always to look harder for the explanation, not give up and assume a supernatural cause". David Attenborough.

1st April 2012, 11:42 PM	#57
Mashuna Ovis ex Machina Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Welsh Wales Posts: 6,581	Originally Posted by flabio I've found someone who is willing to put me through the blindfold test, and should have YT vids up in the next couple of days. The fella who's agreed to test me also has no faith in my ability to dowse what so ever, not unlike everyone here. This should be good, do stay tuned... As Pixel42 notes, a blindfold test is not the same as a double blind test. Could you clarify what you're actually going to be doing in your test?

1st April 2012, 11:50 PM	#58
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 4,462	Originally Posted by flabio I've found someone who is willing to put me through the blindfold test ... If Flabio is confusing 'blindfold' test with 'blind' test I think we could be here for the long haul!
	__________________ The views expressed here do not necessarily represent the unanimous view of all parts of my mind "Always" and "never" are two words that you should always remember never to use. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Why is it that when I ask for a pair of hands a brain comes attached? Last edited by Southwind17; 1st April 2012 at 11:51 PM.

1st April 2012, 11:53 PM	#59
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 4,462	Originally Posted by Mashuna As Pixel42 notes, a blindfold test is not the same as a double blind test. Could you clarify what you're actually going to be doing in your test? I'm not sure a double-blind test is necessary, or even practicable. A simple blind test (but definitely not 'blindfold' test) should suffice.
	__________________ The views expressed here do not necessarily represent the unanimous view of all parts of my mind "Always" and "never" are two words that you should always remember never to use. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Why is it that when I ask for a pair of hands a brain comes attached?

2nd April 2012, 12:20 AM	#60
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 4,241	Originally Posted by Southwind17 I'm not sure a double-blind test is necessary, or even practicable. A simple blind test (but definitely not 'blindfold' test) should suffice. It's essential that no-one who knows where whatever it is flabio is dowsing for is buried is present during the test, as they can inadvertantly give him clues with their body language. So the test must be double blinded: neither the testee nor the observers can know where the targets are. ETA: http://www.skepdic.com/control.html Quote: A double-blind test is a control group test where neither the evaluator nor the subject knows which items are controls
	__________________ "The correct scientific response to anything that is not understood is always to look harder for the explanation, not give up and assume a supernatural cause". David Attenborough. Last edited by Pixel42; 2nd April 2012 at 12:26 AM.

2nd April 2012, 12:33 AM	#61
flabio Suspended Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 45	I was thinking a blindfold and a duct taped full face motorcycle helmet might be convincing. And like I've said before, I've only ever dowsed service lines before, so that's what I intend to stick with...
flabio Suspended Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 45

2nd April 2012, 12:44 AM	#62
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 4,241	Originally Posted by flabio I was thinking a blindfold and a duct taped full face motorcycle helmet might be convincing. You need to demonstrate that you can tell the difference between ground which has a service line running under it from ground which does not, when there are no visual clues as to which is which, significantly more often than would be expected by chance. Usually this is done by someone setting up an area with several marked spots, some of which have had whatever it is the dowser thinks he can detect buried in them and some of which have not, and then leaving whilst the dowser dowses each spot and identifies which is which. As long as there is no visual clue which is which, the dowser does not need to be blindfolded whilst he does this. As most dowsers need to see how their dowsing rods are reacting to determine whether they are getting a positive response, it's usually impractical to blindfold them. Once the dowser has marked which spots he thinks are which, the guy who set it up returns and tells him if he is right. The odds of getting the right spot by chance can be calculated beforehand. For example if there are 10 spots only one of which has the dowsing target buried in it, the chances of finding the right spot by chance is 1:10. For the JREF preliminary test, applicants are typically required to beat chance odds of 1:1000.
	__________________ "The correct scientific response to anything that is not understood is always to look harder for the explanation, not give up and assume a supernatural cause". David Attenborough.

2nd April 2012, 01:56 AM	#63
Mashuna Ovis ex Machina Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Welsh Wales Posts: 6,581	Originally Posted by flabio I was thinking a blindfold and a duct taped full face motorcycle helmet might be convincing. And like I've said before, I've only ever dowsed service lines before, so that's what I intend to stick with... A double-blind test would be convincing, you being blindfolded would not.

2nd April 2012, 05:21 AM	#64
Dumb All Over A Little Ugly on the Side Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: They call it the Earth (which is a dumb kinda name) Posts: 3,692	flabio, it sounds like you have no clue what a double-blind test is. Here is a hint: it has nothing to do with a blindfold. Double-blind Test
	__________________ The Three Word Story Pledge of Allegiance-- "I Hereby swear upon Engelbert's grave that I will gallop, not stride run, not walk posting three words on Shemp's honor, honoring: bananas, dwarfs, clarinets, [the 7th naughty word], haggis, Batman, nuns, wombats until such time as I'm sober. Or dead." "Some people have a way with words, other people...Um...Oh...Uh, not have way." --Steve Martin

2nd April 2012, 11:31 AM	#65
Czarcasm Muse Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 976	I am looking forward to flabio's next You Tube video, in which he points sticks at yellow flags while wearing two blindfolds.
Czarcasm Muse Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 976	__________________ The sun is out, the birds are singing and all is right with the world. I loooove my meds!

2nd April 2012, 12:57 PM	#66
Dumb All Over A Little Ugly on the Side Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: They call it the Earth (which is a dumb kinda name) Posts: 3,692	Originally Posted by Czarcasm I am looking forward to flabio's next You Tube video, in which he points sticks at yellow flags while wearing two blindfolds. Yeah. Wearing two blindfolds while dowsing gives a whole new meaning to double-blind testing.
	__________________ The Three Word Story Pledge of Allegiance-- "I Hereby swear upon Engelbert's grave that I will gallop, not stride run, not walk posting three words on Shemp's honor, honoring: bananas, dwarfs, clarinets, [the 7th naughty word], haggis, Batman, nuns, wombats until such time as I'm sober. Or dead." "Some people have a way with words, other people...Um...Oh...Uh, not have way." --Steve Martin

2nd April 2012, 01:08 PM	#67
JohnnyG Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 256	Originally Posted by Dumb All Over Yeah. Wearing two blindfolds while dowsing gives a whole new meaning to double-blind testing. Yes, put one blindfold on each dowsing rod - that would prove the rods are not reacting because they see the flags.
JohnnyG Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 256

2nd April 2012, 06:04 PM	#68
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 4,462	Originally Posted by Pixel42 It's essential that no-one who knows where whatever it is flabio is dowsing for is buried is present during the test, as they can inadvertantly give him clues with their body language. So the test must be double blinded: neither the testee nor the observers can know where the targets are. I agree, but I don't consider that the test setters not being present is the essence of a double-blind test. A truly double-blind test would require that nobody knows where the burial site is/are, whether present at the testing or not. And that was my point - that's not practicable - hence a simple blind test, albeit with the test setters then vacating the test area.
	__________________ The views expressed here do not necessarily represent the unanimous view of all parts of my mind "Always" and "never" are two words that you should always remember never to use. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Why is it that when I ask for a pair of hands a brain comes attached?

2nd April 2012, 06:08 PM	#69
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 4,462	Originally Posted by Dumb All Over Yeah. Wearing two blindfolds while dowsing gives a whole new meaning to double-blind testing. Which is what Flabio means by wearing a blindfold and a duct-taped full-face crash helmet, I think! As I wrote earlier, we could be here for the long haul!
	__________________ The views expressed here do not necessarily represent the unanimous view of all parts of my mind "Always" and "never" are two words that you should always remember never to use. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Why is it that when I ask for a pair of hands a brain comes attached?

2nd April 2012, 10:13 PM	#70
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,188	Originally Posted by Southwind17 Which is what Flabio means by wearing a blindfold and a duct-taped full-face crash helmet, I think! As I wrote earlier, we could be here for the long haul! Very long haul as he has now been quietly suspended.
	__________________ dddffffpppqqqq Want to use your computer for something that will make society better? See this thread for details Folding@home

3rd April 2012, 12:01 AM	#71
wardenclyffe Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,485	Well, that wasn't fun while it lasted. But if Flabio is still reading this thread (and we know he is), and he's at all serious about applying for a cash prize; he's got all the info he needs. Ward
	__________________ ~~Na eth'er aa, ammre' en ank'aar'eith, d'emner'aa-, asd'reng'aather, em'n'err-aae...~ - Alenara Al'Kher'aat, aged 347

3rd April 2012, 02:35 PM	#72
Lanzy Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 880	Originally Posted by rjh01 Very long haul as he has now been quietly suspended. He is now hanging from something?
Lanzy Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 880

3rd April 2012, 03:03 PM	#73
Saule Scholar Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 102	Originally Posted by Lanzy He is now hanging from something? Some rods.
Saule Scholar Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 102

3rd April 2012, 10:55 PM	#74
realpaladin Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: I live not very often where my home is. Posts: 2,084	Originally Posted by Saule Some rods. Blindfolded.
	__________________ --- "Change the rules, challenge the future!"

4th April 2012, 04:04 AM	#75
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 4,462	Originally Posted by realpaladin Blindfolded. Double layered.
	__________________ The views expressed here do not necessarily represent the unanimous view of all parts of my mind "Always" and "never" are two words that you should always remember never to use. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Why is it that when I ask for a pair of hands a brain comes attached?