The Great Debate: "Has Science Refuted Religion?"

[punshhh]

Originally Posted by dlorde

These statements contradict each other.

The second statement is speculation, the first is logical fact.

[Donn]

Originally Posted by Resume

What a kindergarten level of understanding. What kind of world would it be to examine phenomena objectively?

Truth. There are the little yellow fuzzy ball phenomena. Those are sooo cute. They make my heart go bippety-boom.
And those leathery crackly ones? Ooooh scary.
The mysterions. Those leave me all puzzly. Like ????

Science! It's a Faith! It's a Feeling.

[annnnoid]

Originally Posted by Donn

I can't believe I'm gonna quote Heinlein, but here it is:
"The universe is what it is, not what we want it to be." - Starship Troopers

Your feelings, my feelings, they make not a bit of difference to reality. The whole essence of science is to get our feelings out of the way.

...then I'm sure you'll enjoy (or whatever...since you seem convinced that 'enjoying' anything is utterly irrelevant) this delightful quote from Bertrand Russell:

“Brief and powerless is man's life; on him and all his race the slow, sure doom falls pitiless and dark. Blind to good and evil, reckless of destruction, omnipotent matter rolls on its relentless way."

Your lack of anything relevant to say has now reached the point where I have to admit I have no more interest in responding.

[Donn]

Originally Posted by annnnoid

Your lack of anything relevant to say has now reached the point where I have to admit I have no more interest in responding.

Ok.

[Limbo]

Originally Posted by Peterson

Thanks for reminding me that I wanted to read her. I picked up a used copy of Practical Mysticism last night.

I'd say that the only way to know what it's like to be aware of God's presence is to be aware of God's presence. Mysticism isn't anything special. Everybody is a mystic to some extent. Even the non-believer is in touch with the Divine at the most basic level of existence. In this sense the atheist glorifies God in the same way a rock does, by the simple fact that they exist. They just don't realize or don't want to realize that they are doing this.

Yep, and everyone is also a scientist to some extent. Even the believer is in touch with science at its most basic level. In this sense the mystic glorifies rationality and empiricism but few realize it.

[Peterson]

Originally Posted by annnnoid

There is a continuum. Mysticism is, ultimately, an integrated part of that continuum. Like every other part of the continuum…it can, and often is, experienced in isolation…and thus, like every other part of the continuum, can be distorted and / or misinterpreted. Is it something special? …indescribably so. But I think far more so when it is integrated with everything else (‘balance’ I think is the correct term). As you point out….life itself is immeasurably special (even for those who are convinced it isn’t). I think it’s simply a matter of when you get the inside right, you discover the outside (for anyone who gives the slightest crap about the evidence, there is much to support this POV).

….but as they say…I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.

Just for clarification, what I meant by "nothing special" is that it's not only certain gifted people that have access to this awareness. I believe that everybody does. When you do become aware of God's presence, it is indescribably special. The indescribable nature of it is a blessing because if we were able to describe it, it could lose it's intimacy.

[Donn]

Originally Posted by Peterson

When you do become aware of God's presence, it is indescribably special. The indescribable nature of it is a blessing because if we were able to describe it, it could lose it's intimacy.

How do you know you are aware of the same thing some other person (say Limbo) is aware of?
What if it's just your brain?
If you can't describe it, how can you compare notes with someone else?

How do you go from this intimate, perfectly private affair to something arranged like a religion?
How does this intimate affair drive your day to day actions and decisions?

If you make an excuse for this mystical affair, you also give cover to those more toxic upstream users of the same excuses. You may be benign (I assume) but they want to curb freedom of mind and body.

Anyway, in the context of the OP, your private insight is so insular that you can only hint at it obscurely. This puts the whole thing into the unlikely - and is thus refuted as a system that describes reality.

[westprog]

Originally Posted by Donn

I gather you mean, by this,

I've noticed that when somebody says this on JREF - along with "so what you're really saying is" - the next statement has rarely anything more than the most tenuous connection to what was actually said. As in this case.

Another popular one is - say someone discussing the Balkan wars says "There were terrible things done on all sides, it wasn't just X" and the response is "so you're saying that genocide is all right, then".

Whenever I've heard "so you're saying x is all right" it involves a distortion.

[Donn]

Originally Posted by westprog

I've noticed that when somebody says this

In this case you notice wrong.

[Limbo]

Originally Posted by Donn

How do you know you are aware of the same thing some other person (say Limbo) is aware of?
What if it's just your brain?
If you can't describe it, how can you compare notes with someone else?

It's amazing how clearly comparative mysticism shows that yes indeed throughout history mystics have been 'aware of the same thing'. Spend some time studying comparative mysticism, comparative mythology, and comparative religion. You'll see that there is a transcendent reality that informs world religion & myth.

One Song

'Every war and every conflict between human beings
has happened because of some disagreement about names.

It is such an unnecessary foolishness,
because just beyond the arguing
there is a long table of companionship
set and waiting for us to sit down.

What is praised is one, so the praise is one too,
many jugs being poured into a huge basin.
All religions, all this singing, one song.
The differences are just illusion and vanity.
Sunlight looks a little different on this wall
than it does on that wall
and a lot different on this other one,
but it is still one light.

We have borrowed these clothes,
these time-and-space personalities,
from a light, and when we praise,
we are pouring them back in.' -Rumi

[Resume]

Originally Posted by Limbo

It's amazing how clearly comparative mysticism shows that yes indeed throughout history mystics have been 'aware of the same thing'.

Well of course. P.T. Barnum was aware of this too. "The bigger the humbug the better people will like it."

[Resume]

Originally Posted by Limbo

One Song

'Every war and every conflict between human beings
has happened because of some disagreement about names.

It is such an unnecessary foolishness,
because just beyond the arguing
there is a long table of companionship
set and waiting for us to sit down.

What is praised is one, so the praise is one too,
many jugs being poured into a huge basin.
All religions, all this singing, one song.
The differences are just illusion and vanity.
Sunlight looks a little different on this wall
than it does on that wall
and a lot different on this other one,
but it is still one light.

We have borrowed these clothes,
these time-and-space personalities,
from a light, and when we praise,
we are pouring them back in.' -Rumi

this poem
if we shall call it that
or concert of one
divided among himself
this earthward gesture
of the sky-diver, the worms
on his back still spinning forth
and already gnawing away
the silks of his loves, who could have saved him
this free floating of one
opening his arms into the altitude
of flight, who obeys this necessity and fails . . .

Galway Kinnell.

Or

Of these myths
what cares the singular?
Or later the peat, the loam,
the dirt that conceals?
Or all the below that comsumes and converts?

Anonymous.

[Brainache]

I've got a luverly bunch of coconuts
here they are all standing in a row
...

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Peterson

Just for clarification, what I meant by "nothing special" is that it's not only certain gifted people that have access to this awareness. I believe that everybody does. When you do become aware of God's presence, it is indescribably special. The indescribable nature of it is a blessing because if we were able to describe it, it could lose it's intimacy.

Increased serotonin levels will do that.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by Limbo

It's amazing how clearly comparative mysticism shows that yes indeed throughout history mystics have been 'aware of the same thing'. Spend some time studying comparative mysticism, comparative mythology, and comparative religion. You'll see that there is a transcendent reality that informs world religion & myth.

One Song

'Every war and every conflict between human beings
has happened because of some disagreement about names.

Unfortunately in reality is most wars and conflicts happened, still happen and will always happen due to human viciousness and greed....not over words.....words are EXCUSES to dupe the cannon fodder into fighting the wars for the alphas.

[punshhh]

Originally Posted by Limbo

Yep, and everyone is also a scientist to some extent. Even the believer is in touch with science at its most basic level. In this sense the mystic glorifies rationality and empiricism but few realize it.

Quite, the diligent mystic is the most rational of all.

[Donn]

Originally Posted by Limbo

It's amazing how clearly comparative mysticism shows that yes .. mystics have been 'aware of the same thing'... there is a transcendent reality that informs world religion & myth.

Does not chime with:

Originally Posted by Peterson

When you do become aware of God's presence, it is indescribably special. The indescribable nature of it is a blessing because if we were able to describe it, it could lose it's intimacy.

All the "comparitive mysticism" you do are simply prose and poetry.
Nothing wrong with that, but here's the irony: you mystics are doing a form of proto-science.

You are trying to locate common elements. This involves gathering evidence. You do this by collecting stories and anecdotes.
Then you sift through them, each of you in scattered groups so there is little concerted progress.

Then you assign "points" of clarity or truthiness to common themes, images, emotions and ideas. Each story is laid atop the others, upon a metaphorical light-table, and you trace the most dense clumps.

You attempt to find the source of all those individual experiences.

You are doing science. Badly, arrogantly, blindly, but it's scientific all the same.

Here's the kicker. You would never admit this to yourselves because your whole raison d'être is to continue the intensity of the mystery. You want it occluded even as you shine light upon it.

No wonder you lot are so confused when you come here.

[Limbo]

Originally Posted by Donn

All the "comparitive mysticism" you do are simply prose and poetry.

Sorry, but I don't accept the opinions of motivated skeptics who don't know what they are talking about because they haven't spent years studying that which they are skeptical toward. In other words, armchair pseudo-skeptics.

So I say, stfu and go study comparative religion, comparative mythology, and comparative mysticism for about a decade, as I have, and then experience mysticism first-hand as I have. Then I'll be interested in your opinions. Until then, you are an uninitiated thrall. You are the metaphorical equivalent to copper-tops trapped in the Matrix.

"No one, as far as I know, has yet tried to compose into a single picture the new perspectives that have been opened in the fields of comparative symbolism, religion, mythology, and philosophy by the scholarship of recent years. The richly rewarded archaeological researches of the past few decades; astonishing clarifications, simplifications, and coordinations achieved by intensive studies in the spheres of philology, ethnology, philosophy, art history, folklore, and religion; fresh insights in psychological research; and the many priceless contributions to our science by the scholars, monks, and literary men of Asia, have combined to suggest a new image of the fundamental unity of the spiritual history of mankind.

Without straining beyond the treasuries of evidence already on hand in these widely scattered departments of our subject, therefore, but simply gathering from them the membra disjuncta of a unitary mythological science, I attempt in the following pages the first sketch of a natural history of the gods and heroes, such as in its final form should include in its purview all divine beings--not regarding any as sacrosanct or beyond its scientific domain. For, as in the visible world of the vegetable and animal kingdoms, so also in the visionary world of the gods: there has been a history, an evolution, a series of mutations, governed by laws; and to show forth such laws is the proper aim of science." -Joseph Campbell

[Donn]

Originally Posted by Limbo

So I say, stfu and go study comparative religion, comparative mythology, and comparative mysticism for about a decade, as I have, and then experience mysticism first-hand as I have.

So, nothing much then?

Quote:

Then I'll be interested in your opinions.

I'll take that as resignation.

Quote:

Until then, you are an uninitiated thrall.

Thanks for a fine addition to my sig!

Quote:

You are the metaphorical equivalent to copper-tops trapped in the Matrix, and you presume to tell Neo about the nature of reality.

Right-ho Morpheus. You don't presume anything at all! Not at all.

Quote:

.. astonishing clarifications, simplifications, and coordinations..

Go ahead, astonish us.

Quote:

For, as in the visible world of the vegetable and animal kingdoms, so also in the visionary world of the gods: there has been a history, an evolution, a series of mutations, governed by laws; and to show forth such laws is the proper aim of science.

Sure, but what is the "visionary world of gods"? The bottom of a bong?

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Limbo

Sorry, but I don't accept the opinions of motivated skeptics who don't know what they are talking about because they haven't spent years studying that which they are skeptical toward. In other words, armchair pseudo-skeptics.

So I say, stfu and go study comparative religion, comparative mythology, and comparative mysticism for about a decade, as I have, and then experience mysticism first-hand as I have. Then I'll be interested in your opinions. Until then, you are an uninitiated thrall. You are the metaphorical equivalent to copper-tops trapped in the Matrix.

"No one, as far as I know, has yet tried to compose into a single picture the new perspectives that have been opened in the fields of comparative symbolism, religion, mythology, and philosophy by the scholarship of recent years. The richly rewarded archaeological researches of the past few decades; astonishing clarifications, simplifications, and coordinations achieved by intensive studies in the spheres of philology, ethnology, philosophy, art history, folklore, and religion; fresh insights in psychological research; and the many priceless contributions to our science by the scholars, monks, and literary men of Asia, have combined to suggest a new image of the fundamental unity of the spiritual history of mankind.

Without straining beyond the treasuries of evidence already on hand in these widely scattered departments of our subject, therefore, but simply gathering from them the membra disjuncta of a unitary mythological science, I attempt in the following pages the first sketch of a natural history of the gods and heroes, such as in its final form should include in its purview all divine beings--not regarding any as sacrosanct or beyond its scientific domain. For, as in the visible world of the vegetable and animal kingdoms, so also in the visionary world of the gods: there has been a history, an evolution, a series of mutations, governed by laws; and to show forth such laws is the proper aim of science." -Joseph Campbell

A decade? I've studied it all for 40 years, had many mystical experiences so my conclusion is therefore 4 times more authoritarian than yours and I say it's all in your head.

[Bad vibe]

The trouble is Limbo just doesn't get that there is no universal truth no "other" these experiences are similar across the world because they come from the same species regardless of locale. A turds a turd doesn't matter if a shaman passes it or a western mystic, consistancy, colour may vary but its still the same ole excrement.

[The Norseman]

Originally Posted by Donn

All the "comparitive mysticism" you do are simply prose and poetry. Nothing wrong with that, but here's the irony: you mystics are doing a form of proto-science.

Hey! There's no call for insults here!

There can be no "science" involved beyond the event horizon of the formless, after all.

[The Norseman]

Originally Posted by Limbo

Sorry, but I don't accept the opinions of motivated skeptics who don't know what they are talking about because they haven't spent years studying that which they are skeptical toward. In other words, armchair pseudo-skeptics.

LOL

Quote:

So I say, stfu and go study comparative religion, comparative mythology, and comparative mysticism for about a decade, as I have, and then experience mysticism first-hand as I have. Then I'll be interested in your opinions. Until then, you are an uninitiated thrall. You are the metaphorical equivalent to copper-tops trapped in the Matrix.

So when's your book coming out again, Mr. Christian Mystic?

Quote:

"No one, as far as I know, has yet tried to compose into a single picture the new perspectives that have been opened in the fields of comparative symbolism, religion, mythology, and philosophy by the scholarship of recent years. The richly rewarded archaeological researches of the past few decades; astonishing clarifications, simplifications, and coordinations achieved by intensive studies in the spheres of philology, ethnology, philosophy, art history, folklore, and religion; fresh insights in psychological research; and the many priceless contributions to our science by the scholars, monks, and literary men of Asia, have combined to suggest a new image of the fundamental unity of the spiritual history of mankind.

Without straining beyond the treasuries of evidence already on hand in these widely scattered departments of our subject, therefore, but simply gathering from them the membra disjuncta of a unitary mythological science, I attempt in the following pages the first sketch of a natural history of the gods and heroes, such as in its final form should include in its purview all divine beings--not regarding any as sacrosanct or beyond its scientific domain. For, as in the visible world of the vegetable and animal kingdoms, so also in the visionary world of the gods: there has been a history, an evolution, a series of mutations, governed by laws; and to show forth such laws is the proper aim of science." -Joseph Campbell

A quote from Joseph Campbell from Limbo? How unusual!

Got anything insightful and original to say or is it just mystical regurgitation?

[Resume]

Originally Posted by Limbo

Sorry, but I don't accept the opinions of motivated skeptics who don't know what they are talking about because they haven't spent years studying that which they are skeptical toward. In other words, armchair pseudo-skeptics.

So I say, stfu and go study comparative religion, comparative mythology, and comparative mysticism for about a decade, as I have,

So for this ten years study all you have to present are hackneyed characters from vapid motion pictures, endless quotes from Joseph Campbell, book recommendations such as Practical Mysticism, and credulous claims of feats like astral projection?

[Halfcentaur]

Originally Posted by Limbo

Sorry, but I don't accept the opinions of motivated skeptics who don't know what they are talking about because they haven't spent years studying that which they are skeptical toward. In other words, armchair pseudo-skeptics.

So I say, stfu and go study comparative religion, comparative mythology, and comparative mysticism for about a decade, as I have, and then experience mysticism first-hand as I have. Then I'll be interested in your opinions. Until then, you are an uninitiated thrall. You are the metaphorical equivalent to copper-tops trapped in the Matrix.

"No one, as far as I know, has yet tried to compose into a single picture the new perspectives that have been opened in the fields of comparative symbolism, religion, mythology, and philosophy by the scholarship of recent years. The richly rewarded archaeological researches of the past few decades; astonishing clarifications, simplifications, and coordinations achieved by intensive studies in the spheres of philology, ethnology, philosophy, art history, folklore, and religion; fresh insights in psychological research; and the many priceless contributions to our science by the scholars, monks, and literary men of Asia, have combined to suggest a new image of the fundamental unity of the spiritual history of mankind.

Without straining beyond the treasuries of evidence already on hand in these widely scattered departments of our subject, therefore, but simply gathering from them the membra disjuncta of a unitary mythological science, I attempt in the following pages the first sketch of a natural history of the gods and heroes, such as in its final form should include in its purview all divine beings--not regarding any as sacrosanct or beyond its scientific domain. For, as in the visible world of the vegetable and animal kingdoms, so also in the visionary world of the gods: there has been a history, an evolution, a series of mutations, governed by laws; and to show forth such laws is the proper aim of science." -Joseph Campbell

It's so cute when someone who claims they are spiritually enlightened get's bogged down in such petty conversational tactics. He admits he is seriously here just to tell us what he knows and rub our noses in it, not to discuss his views and examine them. Not that there aren't plenty of skeptics here essentially doing the same thing, but you don't see them proclaiming their advanced spiritual levels and calling others spiritual children while being reduced to the arguments and quips you find children delighted to employ.
If only there was one true Scotsman here deemed worthy of his teachings.

[Halfcentaur]

As someone who has studied comparative religion and mythology for the last 20 years, it is amazing to me that someone finds the abundance of correlations found within these subjects is evidence of actual tangible secret truths pertaining to a supernatural world of spirits and archtypes.

The truth does not suggest these correlations are evidence of the divine, they clearly suggest human psychology is the culprit for these correlations.

[Lowpro]

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

As someone who has studied comparative religion and mythology for the last 20 years, it is amazing to me that someone finds the abundance of correlations found within these subjects is evidence of actual tangible secret truths pertaining to a supernatural world of spirits and archtypes.

The truth does not suggest these correlations are evidence of the divine, they clearly suggest human psychology is the culprit for these correlations.

Hey, if consistency is a measure of validity, then mystics at least can stroke themselves with being consistently wrong.

[Donn]

The Mystic Scotsman opens the Library door, hanging the "Do Not Reason" sign as passes. His spurs clump down the empty aisles to the Religion section. He raises his shotgun and blazes away.
The noise fades, echoing among the shelves. Shreds of paper settle upon his ten gallon hat. Smiling, he marks the sharp shots.

Once again he has hit every target. Now he alone possesses the revelation.

Suddenly, a momentary doubt in the smoke and gloom makes him duck. But he will rise again; for he is unsinkable.

[LibraryLady]

Originally Posted by Donn

The Mystic Scotsman opens the Library door, hanging the "Do Not Reason" sign as passes. His spurs clump down the empty aisles to the Religion section. He raises his shotgun and blazes away.
The noise fades, echoing among the shelves. Shreds of paper settle upon his ten gallon hat. Smiling, he marks the sharp shots.

Once again he has hit every target. Now he alone possesses the revelation.

Suddenly, a momentary doubt in the smoke and gloom makes him duck. But he will rise again; for he is unsinkable.

[punshhh]

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

It's so cute when someone who claims they are spiritually enlightened get's bogged down in such petty conversational tactics. He admits he is seriously here just to tell us what he knows and rub our noses in it, not to discuss his views and examine them. Not that there aren't plenty of skeptics here essentially doing the same thing, but you don't see them proclaiming their advanced spiritual levels and calling others spiritual children while being reduced to the arguments and quips you find children delighted to employ.
If only there was one true Scotsman here deemed worthy of his teachings.

I was born in Scotland

[Limbo]

In Scotland do the swine moan and whine when you toss pearls?

[Resume]

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

As someone who has studied comparative religion and mythology for the last 20 years, it is amazing to me that someone finds the abundance of correlations found within these subjects is evidence of actual tangible secret truths pertaining to a supernatural world of spirits and archtypes.

The truth does not suggest these correlations are evidence of the divine, they clearly suggest human psychology is the culprit for these correlations.

What I'd like for one of these mystics to do is maybe mystic up a Middle East solution; perhaps shamanize a higher yielding wheat hybrid.

Instead what we get are maudlin personal meanderings apparently produced by perturbed brain states. Anyone can accomplish that.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by punshhh

Quite, the diligent mystic is the most rational of all.

That is the funniest thing that you have ever posted on this site. Limbo claims to have danced on the dark side of the Moon and walked with a goddess. How rational is that? Do you believe him?

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by The Norseman

Hey! There's no call for insults here!

There can be no "science" involved beyond the event horizon of the formless, after all.

We're still waiting to hear what this beyond the event horizon of the formless is. Punshhh?

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally Posted by annnnoid

Lets face it Emsworth….the understanding of religion and religious motivations and experiences portrayed by the typical JREF resident (especially on the R&P threads) barely approaches kindergarten level…not to mention the incoherent positions so frequently presented to ridicule it (the ‘company line’)…as Westprog quite accurately pointed out:

Hmmmm, the problem with that is, that you are not describing "the typical JREF resident" -- let alone myself. You are rather describing something else entirely. In my very first post in this thread I somewhat complained about the participants of the discussion that is the nominal subject matter of selfsame. You can take that as a hint.

Originally Posted by annnnoid

Religious activity / spirituality is a vast and complex area that goes to the very heart of what it means to be a human being (anybody who’s taken the time to actually study the matter […ie: look at the evidence..] will know this)…the exact same place where all our thoughts and feelings occur and originate. You cannot isolate religious / spiritual issues into single simplistic functions any more than you can isolate any other human experience into single simplistic functions. They are all fundamentally intertwined. Therefore the ‘feelings’ that are involved in the adjudication, experience, and activity of religion / spirituality are no different than those involved in every other area of life and are very often if not invariably interconnected with it. For example….one of the defining issues referred to in many traditions / religions is the phenomenon known as ‘love’. Quite obviously, this is a condition that is equally relevant across the entire human landscape.

Sure, that may be one aspect.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally Posted by Limbo

In Scotland do the swine moan and whine when you toss pearls?

I'd have to ask McAllister about the pigs in Scotland. In Shropshire, and I assume that that is the case elsewhere too, pigs prefer more nourishing food.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth

I'd have to ask McAllister about the pigs in Scotland. In Shropshire, and I assume that that is the case elsewhere too, pigs prefer more nourishing food.

Limbo is living under the delusion that his daft claims are pearls of wisdom? Lord love a duck! I'm still waiting to hear if punshhh believes that Limbo has danced on the dark side of the Moon.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally Posted by dafydd

Limbo is living under the delusion that his daft claims are pearls of wisdom?

I think that is a trait called humility.

[The Norseman]

Originally Posted by Resume

What I'd like for one of these mystics to do is maybe mystic up a Middle East solution; perhaps shamanize a higher yielding wheat hybrid.

Instead what we get are maudlin personal meanderings apparently produced by perturbed brain states. Anyone can accomplish that.

Or dance up the rains in sub-Saharan Africa. I'm sure that the crops there, meager as they are, really could use it.

Or how about fevers? There are still many fevers that humans have that are currently unexplained by modern medicine. Maybe a true humanitarian could mystic up a few answers in that regard too. Ask God, perhaps. Take hallucinogens which tap into the primordial spiritual plane and come back with the answer that'd help save dozens of lives or more.

Nah. It seems to be far better to dance on the dark side of the moon or travel beyond the event horizon of the formless. Cool, I suppose, but I'm just not seeing any benefit to humans or the planet or to other animals or to ethics or to physics or to emotions or to...

[The Norseman]

Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth

I think that is a trait called humility.

Are you claiming that Limbo exhibits humility in any of his posts here? Is that a joke?