Shroud of Turin is back in the news, here we go again.

shemp · 8th April 2012, 08:06 AM

Controversial new theories on the Shroud of Turin

Quote:

[Thomas] De Wesselow - an agnostic, originally a skeptic about the Shroud - has just published a provocative new book about in which he concludes it's genuine.

Basically, it's the usual thing: known facts combined with rampant speculation. I doubt there's anything "provocative" about it, unless you're already a devout believer.

For example, he brings up this:

Quote:

He compared it to artwork depicting the Crucifixion created since the Middle Ages, referring to the Station of the Cross at the Church of St. Ignatius Loyola in New York City: "If you look at the hands on the cross, the nails go through the center of the palms," he showed Teichner. "That part of the hand is not strong enough to bear the weight of the body."

Meanwhile, the image on the Shroud shows the nail wounds going through the wrists. "That's how they would have done it in Roman times," said De Wesselow, supporting the idea that the Shroud is much older than the middle ages.

Right, as we all know, nobody in the 13th or 14th century could have known this and faked it. Yeah, sure.

But here's the "controversial" part:

Quote:

But now here's the provocative part: De Wesselow's take on the resurrection - what he says happened on Easter Day when Mary Magdalene and two other women went to Jesus' tomb:

"They go to the body, they lift off the cloth, and they notice this strange shadowy form on the cloth itself," he said. "Immediately, they would have had this perception of it as a living presence in the tomb with Jesus."

"They didn't see Jesus come alive again?"

"No, I think what they saw was the Shroud," De Wesselow said. "Once they saw the Shroud they understood that he'd not been resurrected in the flesh, he'd been resurrected in the spirit."

According to de Wesselow, each supposed sighting of the risen Christ was actually a sighting of the Shroud. He's convinced it was what sparked the rapid spread of Christianity, as it was taken from Jerusalem to Galilee, then to Damascus, where he believes Paul saw it and became a Christian.

Wow! That's it! I'm convinced! Because people couldn't possibly tell the difference between someone risen from the dead and a piece of cloth!

Yeah, about as convincing as this theory:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Beerina · 8th April 2012, 08:40 AM

I thought the point of Easter was that Jesus was, in fact, resurrected in the flesh.

It was conquering of actual death by reversing the death process -- not just guaranteeing a blue ghosty of you popping up next to Yoda if you were good. Heck, IIRC, according to standard Christian faith, your loved ones aren't in Heaven, yet. They're still dead in the ground. Eventually, the End Times come, and the graves give up all their dead, and the seas give up all their dead, and you all go stand before The Big Book and get sorted.

I mean, Jesus rams this point home by making Doubting Thomas feel the wounds the Roman soldiers made. Everyone knows your blue ghosty is healed of mortal wounds, missing limbs, and so on. No, this was actual, physical resurrection.

Weak Kitten · 8th April 2012, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

Everyone knows your blue ghosty is healed of mortal wounds, missing limbs, and so on.

Unless the missing limbs and scars are really cool looking...or happened before the movie started.

Biscuit · 8th April 2012, 08:46 AM

Jesus was a Lich.

Redtail · 8th April 2012, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

I thought the point of Easter was that Jesus was, in fact, resurrected in the flesh.

It was conquering of actual death by reversing the death process -- not just guaranteeing a blue ghosty of you popping up next to Yoda if you were good. Heck, IIRC, according to standard Christian faith, your loved ones aren't in Heaven, yet. They're still dead in the ground. Eventually, the End Times come, and the graves give up all their dead, and the seas give up all their dead, and you all go stand before The Big Book and get sorted.

I mean, Jesus rams this point home by making Doubting Thomas feel the wounds the Roman soldiers made. Everyone knows your blue ghosty is healed of mortal wounds, missing limbs, and so on. No, this was actual, physical resurrection.

I thought the point of Easter was ham... Which is odd since he was Jewish...

Dinwar · 8th April 2012, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Biscuit

Jesus was a Lich.

Thanks for that--I needed to squirt coffee out my nose today! :P

Quote:

"They go to the body, they lift off the cloth, and they notice this strange shadowy form on the cloth itself," he said. "Immediately, they would have had this perception of it as a living presence in the tomb with Jesus."

We have a weird view of the ancient world, painted more by The Lord of the Rings and Dungeons and Dragons than by actual historic facts. It has to be remembered that Rome had amazing artists. They were quite capable of creating life-like statues--in fact, one of the weird things about Roman statues is how life-like they were (they obviously didn't use the ancient equivalent of air-brushing very much). Their paintings included amazingly life-like images. I'll grant you that Judea wasn't exactly going to be a center of the arts, what with the insurrectionist movements and all, but the people living there weren't unfamiliar with art. A simple image on a piece of cloth wouldn't be that impressive.

Of course, on the flip side of that, you have the whole "Mary in a cheese sandwich" thing. So it's six of one, a half-dozen of the other.

The Central Scrutinizer · 8th April 2012, 08:56 AM

Yep, one of my fundy friends has already posted about it on Facebook.

Avery Dashwood · 8th April 2012, 08:57 AM

This book will be scoffed at by anyone with a molecule of skepticism in them and it will be considered heresy by those gullible enough to swallow the shroud story.

tsig · 8th April 2012, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by shemp

Controversial new theories on the Shroud of Turin

Basically, it's the usual thing: known facts combined with rampant speculation. I doubt there's anything "provocative" about it, unless you're already a devout believer.

For example, he brings up this:

Right, as we all know, nobody in the 13th or 14th century could have known this and faked it. Yeah, sure.

But here's the "controversial" part:

Wow! That's it! I'm convinced! Because people couldn't possibly tell the difference between someone risen from the dead and a piece of cloth!

Yeah, about as convincing as this theory:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Jesus as bedsheet.

Kahalachan · 8th April 2012, 09:35 AM

Boring.

Let me know when someone finds Dracula's coffin.

catsmate1 · 8th April 2012, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by shemp

Controversial new theories on the Shroud of Turin

Basically, it's the usual thing: known facts combined with rampant speculation. I doubt there's anything "provocative" about it, unless you're already a devout believer.

For example, he brings up this:

Right, as we all know, nobody in the 13th or 14th century could have known this and faked it. Yeah, sure.

But here's the "controversial" part:

Wow! That's it! I'm convinced! Because people couldn't possibly tell the difference between someone risen from the dead and a piece of cloth!

Yeah, about as convincing as this theory:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

I wonder will our resident shroudie bring up this book? It seems to contradict some of his beliefs.........
Anyway I assume, not having read the book, that it comprehensively answers the reasons why rational people accept the shroud is a medieval fake:

the lack of evidence it existed prior to ~1355
the incompatibility of the shroud with usual Jewish burial practices
the definitive radiocarbon dating
the textile analysis
the belief of contemporary church figures that it was a fake, even indicating a local bishop questioned the artist who created the shroud
the pigment analyses, microscopical and chemical
the iconographic similarity to other religious art of the period
the ease with which the shroud has been replicated using period methods
the lack of correspondence of the image on the cloth to that which would result from it being used as a shroud

De Wesselow should leave science to scientists.

Lucian · 8th April 2012, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

Yep, one of my fundy friends has already posted about it on Facebook.

In a positive way? That surprises me a bit because, as Avery Dashwood said, this theory has something to annoy everyone. For Christians, it denies the physical resurrection, which is pretty crucial to Christian belief. In addition, it is contradicted by the gospels: not only did Thomas rummage about in the wounds, Mary spoke to but didn't immediately recognize Jesus. Finally it assumes that the Marys and the apostles were complete and utter idiots who couldn't tell the difference between a sheet and a person.

jond · 8th April 2012, 10:35 AM

Do we really need another thread about this silly sheet?

BStrong · 8th April 2012, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

I thought the point of Easter was that Jesus was, in fact, resurrected in the flesh.

It was conquering of actual death by reversing the death process -- not just guaranteeing a blue ghosty of you popping up next to Yoda if you were good. Heck, IIRC, according to standard Christian faith, your loved ones aren't in Heaven, yet. They're still dead in the ground. Eventually, the End Times come, and the graves give up all their dead, and the seas give up all their dead, and you all go stand before The Big Book and get sorted.

I mean, Jesus rams this point home by making Doubting Thomas feel the wounds the Roman soldiers made. Everyone knows your blue ghosty is healed of mortal wounds, missing limbs, and so on. No, this was actual, physical resurrection.

"Jesus had a tough life. I read about that guy. Jesus is the only guy that ever came back from the dead that didn't scare the **** out of everybody!"

-Sam Kinison

Polaris · 8th April 2012, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

I thought the point of Easter was that Jesus was, in fact, resurrected in the flesh.

It was conquering of actual death by reversing the death process -- not just guaranteeing a blue ghosty of you popping up next to Yoda if you were good. Heck, IIRC, according to standard Christian faith, your loved ones aren't in Heaven, yet. They're still dead in the ground. Eventually, the End Times come, and the graves give up all their dead, and the seas give up all their dead, and you all go stand before The Big Book and get sorted.

I mean, Jesus rams this point home by making Doubting Thomas feel the wounds the Roman soldiers made. Everyone knows your blue ghosty is healed of mortal wounds, missing limbs, and so on. No, this was actual, physical resurrection.

With the smell that line is going to put off I feel for the poor bastard at the end of it.

Aridas · 8th April 2012, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Lucian

In a positive way? That surprises me a bit because, as Avery Dashwood said, this theory has something to annoy everyone. For Christians, it denies the physical resurrection, which is pretty crucial to Christian belief. In addition, it is contradicted by the gospels: not only did Thomas rummage about in the wounds, Mary spoke to but didn't immediately recognize Jesus. Finally it assumes that the Marys and the apostles were complete and utter idiots who couldn't tell the difference between a sheet and a person.

You realize, of course, that actually thinking logically and cohesively about claims that seem to support their beliefs is not exactly one of the most prevalent traits in fundies? Any and all arguments for Creationism, especially the young earth varieties, for example, are clear and ever present examples. That an otherwise somewhat intelligent fundy would throw idiocy at me like the "NASA proved the Bible" claim as if it was fact... just demonstrates the bad side of confirmation bias and annoying tricks that are often ingrained in fundamentalism, all over again.

TimCallahan · 8th April 2012, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate1

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...244f3a45a2.jpg
I wonder will our resident shroudie bring up this book? It seems to contradict some of his beliefs.........
Anyway I assume, not having read the book, that it comprehensively answers the reasons why rational people accept the shroud is a medieval fake:

the lack of evidence it existed prior to ~1355
the incompatibility of the shroud with usual Jewish burial practices
the definitive radiocarbon dating
the textile analysis
the belief of contemporary church figures that it was a fake, even indicating a local bishop questioned the artist who created the shroud
the pigment analyses, microscopical and chemical
the iconographic similarity to other religious art of the period
the ease with which the shroud has been replicated using period methods
the lack of correspondence of the image on the cloth to that which would result from it being used as a shroud

De Wesselow should leave science to scientists.

Yeah, particularly the radiocarbon dating. Once it demonstrated the medieval time frame of the cloth itself, that should have been the end of it. While the shroudies immediately attacked the tests, once their findings were made public, you just know they would have hailed them as great science had the carbon dating showed a first century origin.

Brainache · 8th April 2012, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

Yeah, particularly the radiocarbon dating. Once it demonstrated the medieval time frame of the cloth itself, that should have been the end of it. While the shroudies immediately attacked the tests, once their findings were made public, you just know they would have hailed them as great science had the carbon dating showed a first century origin.

Saw this bloke interviewed on the Telly yesterday. He did sound a lot like our resident "Shroudie". He even mentioned Rogers and neglected to mention the carbon dating.

I found a clip of the interview:

http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/weekend-sunrise/

You might have to scroll down to find the relevant clip.

rjh01 · 8th April 2012, 02:47 PM

Read the article. Everything in it could be true yet the Shroud still be a fake. Yes the article is nothing but speculation.

Marduk · 8th April 2012, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by shemp

Right, as we all know, nobody in the 13th or 14th century could have known this and faked it. Yeah, sure.

I don't understand this part about faking wrist wounds, there was no need for fakery as the nails through wrists concept of crucifixion was textually documented and heavily publicised 200 years earlier, by the church, thats the same church that owns the shroud of Turin, not as shroudies would have you believe affiliated with any of the artists involved with wrists through palms depictions which were all based on the bibles description of the risen christ with wounded hands.

hey wait, the ~~infalli~~bible got it wrong.

aleCcowaN · 8th April 2012, 03:37 PM

Can I rent the shroud by the time of my death? Just three days.

Ausmerican · 8th April 2012, 04:36 PM

How well do you think a big beach towel printed as the shroud would sell? I'd buy one.

fuelair · 8th April 2012, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Redtail

I thought the point of Easter was ham... Which is odd since he was Jewish...

Ham.......and Eggs.

and Bacon!!

Brainache · 8th April 2012, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Ausmerican

How well do you think a big beach towel printed as the shroud would sell? I'd buy one.

Simpsons did it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_the_Vigilante

Quote:

Flanders tells Homer that his Shroud of Turin beach towels were stolen during one of the burglaries.

Marduk · 8th April 2012, 05:14 PM

Simpsons did it Simpsons did it Simpsons did it

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

shemp · 9th April 2012, 07:04 PM

If the shroud is real, then Jesus dyed for our sins.

Dinwar · 9th April 2012, 08:34 PM

"Blast it, Jeshua! How many times have I told you to use WATER when you wash up! Just look at this towel--it's ruined!"

JoeTheJuggler · 9th April 2012, 08:45 PM

On a bit of a tangent:

Quote:

But now here's the provocative part: De Wesselow's take on the resurrection - what he says happened on Easter Day when Mary Magdalene and two other women went to Jesus' tomb:

"They go to the body, they lift off the cloth, and they notice this strange shadowy form on the cloth itself," he said. "Immediately, they would have had this perception of it as a living presence in the tomb with Jesus."

One of the biggest problems with Christian scriptures is that the several accounts of "Easter" morning don't match up. This is supposed to be the single most important event to all of Christianity (don't say it was the crucifixion, because that wasn't at all novel), and the actual Gospel accounts can't even agree on what exactly took place that morning (or what morning it was or even who was there).

MattusMaximus · 9th April 2012, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

On a bit of a tangent:

One of the biggest problems with Christian scriptures is that the several accounts of "Easter" morning don't match up. This is supposed to be the single most important event to all of Christianity (don't say it was the crucifixion, because that wasn't at all novel), and the actual Gospel accounts can't even agree on what exactly took place that morning (or what morning it was or even who was there).

This ^

A careful reading of the canonical Gospels shows this pretty clearly. And THIS is the event the supposed authenticity of the shroud is based upon?

Not very impressive. Barely yawn-worthy, in fact.

pakeha · 9th April 2012, 11:02 PM

Quote:

"They go to the body, they lift off the cloth, and they notice this strange shadowy form on the cloth itself," he said. "Immediately, they would have had this perception of it as a living presence in the tomb with Jesus."

Only if they'd eaten or smoked something really quite extraordinary for breakfast that morning, IMO.

Craig B · 9th April 2012, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by pakeha

Only if they'd eaten or smoked something really quite extraordinary for breakfast that morning, IMO.

This supplies some support - otherwise lacking - for Allegro's "Jesus was a magic mushroom" theory.

8th April 2012, 08:40 AM	#2
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	I thought the point of Easter was that Jesus was, in fact, resurrected in the flesh. It was conquering of actual death by reversing the death process -- not just guaranteeing a blue ghosty of you popping up next to Yoda if you were good. Heck, IIRC, according to standard Christian faith, your loved ones aren't in Heaven, yet. They're still dead in the ground. Eventually, the End Times come, and the graves give up all their dead, and the seas give up all their dead, and you all go stand before The Big Book and get sorted. I mean, Jesus rams this point home by making Doubting Thomas feel the wounds the Roman soldiers made. Everyone knows your blue ghosty is healed of mortal wounds, missing limbs, and so on. No, this was actual, physical resurrection.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? Last edited by Beerina; 8th April 2012 at 08:42 AM.

8th April 2012, 08:44 AM	#3
Weak Kitten Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lost and lonely...will you be my friend? Posts: 1,726	Originally Posted by Beerina Everyone knows your blue ghosty is healed of mortal wounds, missing limbs, and so on. Unless the missing limbs and scars are really cool looking...or happened before the movie started.
	__________________ A quick reminder to all participants that although incomprehensibility is not against the Membership Agreement, incivility is. Please try and remember this, and keep your exchanges polite and respectful. -arthwollipot

8th April 2012, 08:46 AM	#4
Biscuit Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,773	Jesus was a Lich.
Biscuit Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,773	__________________ “... there is no shame in not knowing. The problem arises when irrational thought and attendant behavior fill the vacuum left by ignorance.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

8th April 2012, 08:50 AM	#5
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,309	Originally Posted by Beerina I thought the point of Easter was that Jesus was, in fact, resurrected in the flesh. It was conquering of actual death by reversing the death process -- not just guaranteeing a blue ghosty of you popping up next to Yoda if you were good. Heck, IIRC, according to standard Christian faith, your loved ones aren't in Heaven, yet. They're still dead in the ground. Eventually, the End Times come, and the graves give up all their dead, and the seas give up all their dead, and you all go stand before The Big Book and get sorted. I mean, Jesus rams this point home by making Doubting Thomas feel the wounds the Roman soldiers made. Everyone knows your blue ghosty is healed of mortal wounds, missing limbs, and so on. No, this was actual, physical resurrection. I thought the point of Easter was ham... Which is odd since he was Jewish...
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,309	__________________ AVENGERS!!!.. Turn off the dark!

8th April 2012, 08:56 AM	#6
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,945	Originally Posted by Biscuit Jesus was a Lich. Thanks for that--I needed to squirt coffee out my nose today! :P Quote: "They go to the body, they lift off the cloth, and they notice this strange shadowy form on the cloth itself," he said. "Immediately, they would have had this perception of it as a living presence in the tomb with Jesus." We have a weird view of the ancient world, painted more by The Lord of the Rings and Dungeons and Dragons than by actual historic facts. It has to be remembered that Rome had amazing artists. They were quite capable of creating life-like statues--in fact, one of the weird things about Roman statues is how life-like they were (they obviously didn't use the ancient equivalent of air-brushing very much). Their paintings included amazingly life-like images. I'll grant you that Judea wasn't exactly going to be a center of the arts, what with the insurrectionist movements and all, but the people living there weren't unfamiliar with art. A simple image on a piece of cloth wouldn't be that impressive. Of course, on the flip side of that, you have the whole "Mary in a cheese sandwich" thing. So it's six of one, a half-dozen of the other.
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,945	__________________ GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. Ein krieg ohne feinde.

8th April 2012, 08:56 AM	#7
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,277	Yep, one of my fundy friends has already posted about it on Facebook.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

8th April 2012, 08:57 AM	#8
Avery Dashwood Scholar Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 64	This book will be scoffed at by anyone with a molecule of skepticism in them and it will be considered heresy by those gullible enough to swallow the shroud story.
Avery Dashwood Scholar Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 64

8th April 2012, 09:35 AM	#10
Kahalachan Illuminator Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,258	Boring. Let me know when someone finds Dracula's coffin.
Kahalachan Illuminator Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,258	__________________ For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

8th April 2012, 10:05 AM	#12
Lucian Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,548	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer Yep, one of my fundy friends has already posted about it on Facebook. In a positive way? That surprises me a bit because, as Avery Dashwood said, this theory has something to annoy everyone. For Christians, it denies the physical resurrection, which is pretty crucial to Christian belief. In addition, it is contradicted by the gospels: not only did Thomas rummage about in the wounds, Mary spoke to but didn't immediately recognize Jesus. Finally it assumes that the Marys and the apostles were complete and utter idiots who couldn't tell the difference between a sheet and a person.
Lucian Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,548	__________________ skepticalhumanities.com virtualskeptics.com

8th April 2012, 10:35 AM	#13
jond Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,411	Do we really need another thread about this silly sheet?
jond Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,411

8th April 2012, 10:44 AM	#14
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 3,814	Originally Posted by Beerina I thought the point of Easter was that Jesus was, in fact, resurrected in the flesh. It was conquering of actual death by reversing the death process -- not just guaranteeing a blue ghosty of you popping up next to Yoda if you were good. Heck, IIRC, according to standard Christian faith, your loved ones aren't in Heaven, yet. They're still dead in the ground. Eventually, the End Times come, and the graves give up all their dead, and the seas give up all their dead, and you all go stand before The Big Book and get sorted. I mean, Jesus rams this point home by making Doubting Thomas feel the wounds the Roman soldiers made. Everyone knows your blue ghosty is healed of mortal wounds, missing limbs, and so on. No, this was actual, physical resurrection. *"Jesus had a tough life. I read about that guy. Jesus is the only guy that ever came back from the dead that didn't scare the out of everybody!"* -Sam Kinison

8th April 2012, 10:55 AM	#15
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,169	Originally Posted by Beerina I thought the point of Easter was that Jesus was, in fact, resurrected in the flesh. It was conquering of actual death by reversing the death process -- not just guaranteeing a blue ghosty of you popping up next to Yoda if you were good. Heck, IIRC, according to standard Christian faith, your loved ones aren't in Heaven, yet. They're still dead in the ground. Eventually, the End Times come, and the graves give up all their dead, and the seas give up all their dead, and you all go stand before The Big Book and get sorted. I mean, Jesus rams this point home by making Doubting Thomas feel the wounds the Roman soldiers made. Everyone knows your blue ghosty is healed of mortal wounds, missing limbs, and so on. No, this was actual, physical resurrection. With the smell that line is going to put off I feel for the poor bastard at the end of it.
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,169	__________________ "There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Roy Moore of Alabama. The world would absolutely benefit by him being run over by any vehicle." - Lowpro

8th April 2012, 11:23 AM	#16
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,107	Originally Posted by Lucian In a positive way? That surprises me a bit because, as Avery Dashwood said, this theory has something to annoy everyone. For Christians, it denies the physical resurrection, which is pretty crucial to Christian belief. In addition, it is contradicted by the gospels: not only did Thomas rummage about in the wounds, Mary spoke to but didn't immediately recognize Jesus. Finally it assumes that the Marys and the apostles were complete and utter idiots who couldn't tell the difference between a sheet and a person. You realize, of course, that actually thinking logically and cohesively about claims that seem to support their beliefs is not exactly one of the most prevalent traits in fundies? Any and all arguments for Creationism, especially the young earth varieties, for example, are clear and ever present examples. That an otherwise somewhat intelligent fundy would throw idiocy at me like the "NASA proved the Bible" claim as if it was fact... just demonstrates the bad side of confirmation bias and annoying tricks that are often ingrained in fundamentalism, all over again.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

8th April 2012, 12:04 PM	#17
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,129	Originally Posted by catsmate1 http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...244f3a45a2.jpg I wonder will our resident shroudie bring up this book? It seems to contradict some of his beliefs......... Anyway I assume, not having read the book, that it comprehensively answers the reasons why rational people accept the shroud is a medieval fake: the lack of evidence it existed prior to ~1355 the incompatibility of the shroud with usual Jewish burial practices the definitive radiocarbon dating the textile analysis the belief of contemporary church figures that it was a fake, even indicating a local bishop questioned the artist who created the shroud the pigment analyses, microscopical and chemical the iconographic similarity to other religious art of the period the ease with which the shroud has been replicated using period methods the lack of correspondence of the image on the cloth to that which would result from it being used as a shroud De Wesselow should leave science to scientists. Yeah, particularly the radiocarbon dating. Once it demonstrated the medieval time frame of the cloth itself, that should have been the end of it. While the shroudies immediately attacked the tests, once their findings were made public, you just know they would have hailed them as great science had the carbon dating showed a first century origin.
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,129

8th April 2012, 02:32 PM	#18
Brainache Nasty Brutish and Tall Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Knob Hill. Posts: 9,086	Originally Posted by TimCallahan Yeah, particularly the radiocarbon dating. Once it demonstrated the medieval time frame of the cloth itself, that should have been the end of it. While the shroudies immediately attacked the tests, once their findings were made public, you just know they would have hailed them as great science had the carbon dating showed a first century origin. Saw this bloke interviewed on the Telly yesterday. He did sound a lot like our resident "Shroudie". He even mentioned Rogers and neglected to mention the carbon dating. I found a clip of the interview: http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/weekend-sunrise/ You might have to scroll down to find the relevant clip.
	__________________ Words cannot convey the vertiginous retching horror that enveloped me as I lost consciousness. - W. S. Burroughs Invert the prominent diaphragm!!!

8th April 2012, 02:47 PM	#19
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,188	Read the article. Everything in it could be true yet the Shroud still be a fake. Yes the article is nothing but speculation.
	__________________ dddffffpppqqqq Want to use your computer for something that will make society better? See this thread for details Folding@home

8th April 2012, 03:24 PM	#20
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by shemp Right, as we all know, nobody in the 13th or 14th century could have known this and faked it. Yeah, sure. I don't understand this part about faking wrist wounds, there was no need for fakery as the nails through wrists concept of crucifixion was textually documented and heavily publicised 200 years earlier, by the church, thats the same church that owns the shroud of Turin, not as shroudies would have you believe affiliated with any of the artists involved with wrists through palms depictions which were all based on the bibles description of the risen christ with wounded hands. hey wait, the ~~infalli~~bible got it wrong.
	Last edited by Marduk; 8th April 2012 at 03:58 PM.

8th April 2012, 03:37 PM	#21
aleCcowaN imperfecto del subjuntivo Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Posts: 1,742	Can I rent the shroud by the time of my death? Just three days.
	__________________ si razona el caballO ¡se acabó la equitacióN! - césaR brutO *[English student. Plees, forgibb my misteakes!]* -Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. "Ego sum cucurbita magna" -Guyus Qualunque

8th April 2012, 04:36 PM	#22
Ausmerican Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,381	How well do you think a big beach towel printed as the shroud would sell? I'd buy one.
Ausmerican Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,381	__________________ Everyone must believe in something. I believe I'll go canoeing. Henry David Thoreau

8th April 2012, 04:39 PM	#23
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,954	Originally Posted by Redtail I thought the point of Easter was ham... Which is odd since he was Jewish... Ham.......and Eggs. and Bacon!!
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,954	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

8th April 2012, 04:44 PM	#24
Brainache Nasty Brutish and Tall Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Knob Hill. Posts: 9,086	Originally Posted by Ausmerican How well do you think a big beach towel printed as the shroud would sell? I'd buy one. Simpsons did it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_the_Vigilante Quote: Flanders tells Homer that his Shroud of Turin beach towels were stolen during one of the burglaries.
	__________________ Words cannot convey the vertiginous retching horror that enveloped me as I lost consciousness. - W. S. Burroughs Invert the prominent diaphragm!!!

9th April 2012, 07:04 PM	#26
shemp Timothy, Timothy, where on earth did you go? Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: trapped in a cave-in with Joe Posts: 12,886	If the shroud is real, then Jesus dyed for our sins.
	__________________ Church on Sunday, sleep and nod Tryin' to duck the wrath of God Preacher's fillin' us with fright Tryin' to tell us what he thinks is right He really got to be some kind of nut (I can't use it!) Tryin' to make it real - compared to what?

9th April 2012, 08:34 PM	#27
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,945	"Blast it, Jeshua! How many times have I told you to use WATER when you wash up! Just look at this towel--it's ruined!"
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,945	__________________ GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. Ein krieg ohne feinde.

9th April 2012, 08:45 PM	#28
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,774	On a bit of a tangent: Quote: But now here's the provocative part: De Wesselow's take on the resurrection - what he says happened on Easter Day when Mary Magdalene and two other women went to Jesus' tomb: "They go to the body, they lift off the cloth, and they notice this strange shadowy form on the cloth itself," he said. "Immediately, they would have had this perception of it as a living presence in the tomb with Jesus." One of the biggest problems with Christian scriptures is that the several accounts of "Easter" morning don't match up. This is supposed to be the single most important event to all of Christianity (don't say it was the crucifixion, because that wasn't at all novel), and the actual Gospel accounts can't even agree on what exactly took place that morning (or what morning it was or even who was there).
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

9th April 2012, 08:52 PM	#29
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 14,175	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler On a bit of a tangent: One of the biggest problems with Christian scriptures is that the several accounts of "Easter" morning don't match up. This is supposed to be the single most important event to all of Christianity (don't say it was the crucifixion, because that wasn't at all novel), and the actual Gospel accounts can't even agree on what exactly took place that morning (or what morning it was or even who was there). This ^ A careful reading of the canonical Gospels shows this pretty clearly. And THIS is the event the supposed authenticity of the shroud is based upon? Not very impressive. Barely yawn-worthy, in fact.
	__________________ Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher The Times They Are A-Changin'

9th April 2012, 11:02 PM	#30
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 7,994	Quote: "They go to the body, they lift off the cloth, and they notice this strange shadowy form on the cloth itself," he said. "Immediately, they would have had this perception of it as a living presence in the tomb with Jesus." Only if they'd eaten or smoked something really quite extraordinary for breakfast that morning, IMO.
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 7,994	__________________ To a conspiracy theorist, having double standards just means that they have twice as many standards. carlitos

9th April 2012, 11:14 PM	#31
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,942	Originally Posted by pakeha Only if they'd eaten or smoked something really quite extraordinary for breakfast that morning, IMO. This supplies some support - otherwise lacking - for Allegro's "Jesus was a magic mushroom" theory.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,942