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Tags shroud of turin , Thomas De Wesselow

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Old 8th April 2012, 08:06 AM   #1
shemp
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Shroud of Turin is back in the news, here we go again.

Controversial new theories on the Shroud of Turin

Quote:
[Thomas] De Wesselow - an agnostic, originally a skeptic about the Shroud - has just published a provocative new book about in which he concludes it's genuine.
Basically, it's the usual thing: known facts combined with rampant speculation. I doubt there's anything "provocative" about it, unless you're already a devout believer.

For example, he brings up this:

Quote:
He compared it to artwork depicting the Crucifixion created since the Middle Ages, referring to the Station of the Cross at the Church of St. Ignatius Loyola in New York City: "If you look at the hands on the cross, the nails go through the center of the palms," he showed Teichner. "That part of the hand is not strong enough to bear the weight of the body."

Meanwhile, the image on the Shroud shows the nail wounds going through the wrists. "That's how they would have done it in Roman times," said De Wesselow, supporting the idea that the Shroud is much older than the middle ages.
Right, as we all know, nobody in the 13th or 14th century could have known this and faked it. Yeah, sure.

But here's the "controversial" part:

Quote:
But now here's the provocative part: De Wesselow's take on the resurrection - what he says happened on Easter Day when Mary Magdalene and two other women went to Jesus' tomb:

"They go to the body, they lift off the cloth, and they notice this strange shadowy form on the cloth itself," he said. "Immediately, they would have had this perception of it as a living presence in the tomb with Jesus."

"They didn't see Jesus come alive again?"

"No, I think what they saw was the Shroud," De Wesselow said. "Once they saw the Shroud they understood that he'd not been resurrected in the flesh, he'd been resurrected in the spirit."

According to de Wesselow, each supposed sighting of the risen Christ was actually a sighting of the Shroud. He's convinced it was what sparked the rapid spread of Christianity, as it was taken from Jerusalem to Galilee, then to Damascus, where he believes Paul saw it and became a Christian.
Wow! That's it! I'm convinced! Because people couldn't possibly tell the difference between someone risen from the dead and a piece of cloth!

Yeah, about as convincing as this theory:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Last edited by shemp; 8th April 2012 at 08:08 AM.
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Old 8th April 2012, 08:40 AM   #2
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I thought the point of Easter was that Jesus was, in fact, resurrected in the flesh.

It was conquering of actual death by reversing the death process -- not just guaranteeing a blue ghosty of you popping up next to Yoda if you were good. Heck, IIRC, according to standard Christian faith, your loved ones aren't in Heaven, yet. They're still dead in the ground. Eventually, the End Times come, and the graves give up all their dead, and the seas give up all their dead, and you all go stand before The Big Book and get sorted.


I mean, Jesus rams this point home by making Doubting Thomas feel the wounds the Roman soldiers made. Everyone knows your blue ghosty is healed of mortal wounds, missing limbs, and so on. No, this was actual, physical resurrection.
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Last edited by Beerina; 8th April 2012 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 8th April 2012, 08:44 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Everyone knows your blue ghosty is healed of mortal wounds, missing limbs, and so on.
Unless the missing limbs and scars are really cool looking...or happened before the movie started.
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Old 8th April 2012, 08:46 AM   #4
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Jesus was a Lich.
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Old 8th April 2012, 08:50 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
I thought the point of Easter was that Jesus was, in fact, resurrected in the flesh.

It was conquering of actual death by reversing the death process -- not just guaranteeing a blue ghosty of you popping up next to Yoda if you were good. Heck, IIRC, according to standard Christian faith, your loved ones aren't in Heaven, yet. They're still dead in the ground. Eventually, the End Times come, and the graves give up all their dead, and the seas give up all their dead, and you all go stand before The Big Book and get sorted.


I mean, Jesus rams this point home by making Doubting Thomas feel the wounds the Roman soldiers made. Everyone knows your blue ghosty is healed of mortal wounds, missing limbs, and so on. No, this was actual, physical resurrection.
I thought the point of Easter was ham... Which is odd since he was Jewish...
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Old 8th April 2012, 08:56 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Biscuit
Jesus was a Lich.
Thanks for that--I needed to squirt coffee out my nose today! :P

Quote:
"They go to the body, they lift off the cloth, and they notice this strange shadowy form on the cloth itself," he said. "Immediately, they would have had this perception of it as a living presence in the tomb with Jesus."
We have a weird view of the ancient world, painted more by The Lord of the Rings and Dungeons and Dragons than by actual historic facts. It has to be remembered that Rome had amazing artists. They were quite capable of creating life-like statues--in fact, one of the weird things about Roman statues is how life-like they were (they obviously didn't use the ancient equivalent of air-brushing very much). Their paintings included amazingly life-like images. I'll grant you that Judea wasn't exactly going to be a center of the arts, what with the insurrectionist movements and all, but the people living there weren't unfamiliar with art. A simple image on a piece of cloth wouldn't be that impressive.

Of course, on the flip side of that, you have the whole "Mary in a cheese sandwich" thing. So it's six of one, a half-dozen of the other.
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Old 8th April 2012, 08:56 AM   #7
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Yep, one of my fundy friends has already posted about it on Facebook.
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Old 8th April 2012, 08:57 AM   #8
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This book will be scoffed at by anyone with a molecule of skepticism in them and it will be considered heresy by those gullible enough to swallow the shroud story.
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Old 8th April 2012, 09:23 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Controversial new theories on the Shroud of Turin



Basically, it's the usual thing: known facts combined with rampant speculation. I doubt there's anything "provocative" about it, unless you're already a devout believer.

For example, he brings up this:



Right, as we all know, nobody in the 13th or 14th century could have known this and faked it. Yeah, sure.

But here's the "controversial" part:



Wow! That's it! I'm convinced! Because people couldn't possibly tell the difference between someone risen from the dead and a piece of cloth!

Yeah, about as convincing as this theory:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Jesus as bedsheet.
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Old 8th April 2012, 09:35 AM   #10
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Boring.

Let me know when someone finds Dracula's coffin.
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Old 8th April 2012, 10:03 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Controversial new theories on the Shroud of Turin



Basically, it's the usual thing: known facts combined with rampant speculation. I doubt there's anything "provocative" about it, unless you're already a devout believer.

For example, he brings up this:



Right, as we all know, nobody in the 13th or 14th century could have known this and faked it. Yeah, sure.

But here's the "controversial" part:



Wow! That's it! I'm convinced! Because people couldn't possibly tell the difference between someone risen from the dead and a piece of cloth!

Yeah, about as convincing as this theory:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

I wonder will our resident shroudie bring up this book? It seems to contradict some of his beliefs.........
Anyway I assume, not having read the book, that it comprehensively answers the reasons why rational people accept the shroud is a medieval fake:
  • the lack of evidence it existed prior to ~1355
  • the incompatibility of the shroud with usual Jewish burial practices
  • the definitive radiocarbon dating
  • the textile analysis
  • the belief of contemporary church figures that it was a fake, even indicating a local bishop questioned the artist who created the shroud
  • the pigment analyses, microscopical and chemical
  • the iconographic similarity to other religious art of the period
  • the ease with which the shroud has been replicated using period methods
  • the lack of correspondence of the image on the cloth to that which would result from it being used as a shroud
De Wesselow should leave science to scientists.
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Old 8th April 2012, 10:05 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Yep, one of my fundy friends has already posted about it on Facebook.
In a positive way? That surprises me a bit because, as Avery Dashwood said, this theory has something to annoy everyone. For Christians, it denies the physical resurrection, which is pretty crucial to Christian belief. In addition, it is contradicted by the gospels: not only did Thomas rummage about in the wounds, Mary spoke to but didn't immediately recognize Jesus. Finally it assumes that the Marys and the apostles were complete and utter idiots who couldn't tell the difference between a sheet and a person.
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Old 8th April 2012, 10:35 AM   #13
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Do we really need another thread about this silly sheet?
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Old 8th April 2012, 10:44 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
I thought the point of Easter was that Jesus was, in fact, resurrected in the flesh.

It was conquering of actual death by reversing the death process -- not just guaranteeing a blue ghosty of you popping up next to Yoda if you were good. Heck, IIRC, according to standard Christian faith, your loved ones aren't in Heaven, yet. They're still dead in the ground. Eventually, the End Times come, and the graves give up all their dead, and the seas give up all their dead, and you all go stand before The Big Book and get sorted.


I mean, Jesus rams this point home by making Doubting Thomas feel the wounds the Roman soldiers made. Everyone knows your blue ghosty is healed of mortal wounds, missing limbs, and so on. No, this was actual, physical resurrection.
"Jesus had a tough life. I read about that guy. Jesus is the only guy that ever came back from the dead that didn't scare the **** out of everybody!"

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Old 8th April 2012, 10:55 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
I thought the point of Easter was that Jesus was, in fact, resurrected in the flesh.

It was conquering of actual death by reversing the death process -- not just guaranteeing a blue ghosty of you popping up next to Yoda if you were good. Heck, IIRC, according to standard Christian faith, your loved ones aren't in Heaven, yet. They're still dead in the ground. Eventually, the End Times come, and the graves give up all their dead, and the seas give up all their dead, and you all go stand before The Big Book and get sorted.


I mean, Jesus rams this point home by making Doubting Thomas feel the wounds the Roman soldiers made. Everyone knows your blue ghosty is healed of mortal wounds, missing limbs, and so on. No, this was actual, physical resurrection.
With the smell that line is going to put off I feel for the poor bastard at the end of it.
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Old 8th April 2012, 11:23 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Lucian View Post
In a positive way? That surprises me a bit because, as Avery Dashwood said, this theory has something to annoy everyone. For Christians, it denies the physical resurrection, which is pretty crucial to Christian belief. In addition, it is contradicted by the gospels: not only did Thomas rummage about in the wounds, Mary spoke to but didn't immediately recognize Jesus. Finally it assumes that the Marys and the apostles were complete and utter idiots who couldn't tell the difference between a sheet and a person.
You realize, of course, that actually thinking logically and cohesively about claims that seem to support their beliefs is not exactly one of the most prevalent traits in fundies? Any and all arguments for Creationism, especially the young earth varieties, for example, are clear and ever present examples. That an otherwise somewhat intelligent fundy would throw idiocy at me like the "NASA proved the Bible" claim as if it was fact... just demonstrates the bad side of confirmation bias and annoying tricks that are often ingrained in fundamentalism, all over again.
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Old 8th April 2012, 12:04 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...244f3a45a2.jpg
I wonder will our resident shroudie bring up this book? It seems to contradict some of his beliefs.........
Anyway I assume, not having read the book, that it comprehensively answers the reasons why rational people accept the shroud is a medieval fake:
  • the lack of evidence it existed prior to ~1355
  • the incompatibility of the shroud with usual Jewish burial practices
  • the definitive radiocarbon dating
  • the textile analysis
  • the belief of contemporary church figures that it was a fake, even indicating a local bishop questioned the artist who created the shroud
  • the pigment analyses, microscopical and chemical
  • the iconographic similarity to other religious art of the period
  • the ease with which the shroud has been replicated using period methods
  • the lack of correspondence of the image on the cloth to that which would result from it being used as a shroud
De Wesselow should leave science to scientists.
Yeah, particularly the radiocarbon dating. Once it demonstrated the medieval time frame of the cloth itself, that should have been the end of it. While the shroudies immediately attacked the tests, once their findings were made public, you just know they would have hailed them as great science had the carbon dating showed a first century origin.
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Old 8th April 2012, 02:32 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
Yeah, particularly the radiocarbon dating. Once it demonstrated the medieval time frame of the cloth itself, that should have been the end of it. While the shroudies immediately attacked the tests, once their findings were made public, you just know they would have hailed them as great science had the carbon dating showed a first century origin.
Saw this bloke interviewed on the Telly yesterday. He did sound a lot like our resident "Shroudie". He even mentioned Rogers and neglected to mention the carbon dating.

I found a clip of the interview:

http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/weekend-sunrise/

You might have to scroll down to find the relevant clip.
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Old 8th April 2012, 02:47 PM   #19
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Read the article. Everything in it could be true yet the Shroud still be a fake. Yes the article is nothing but speculation.
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Old 8th April 2012, 03:24 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Right, as we all know, nobody in the 13th or 14th century could have known this and faked it. Yeah, sure.
I don't understand this part about faking wrist wounds, there was no need for fakery as the nails through wrists concept of crucifixion was textually documented and heavily publicised 200 years earlier, by the church, thats the same church that owns the shroud of Turin, not as shroudies would have you believe affiliated with any of the artists involved with wrists through palms depictions which were all based on the bibles description of the risen christ with wounded hands.


hey wait, the infallibible got it wrong.

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Old 8th April 2012, 03:37 PM   #21
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Can I rent the shroud by the time of my death? Just three days.
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Old 8th April 2012, 04:36 PM   #22
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How well do you think a big beach towel printed as the shroud would sell? I'd buy one.
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Old 8th April 2012, 04:39 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Redtail View Post
I thought the point of Easter was ham... Which is odd since he was Jewish...
Ham.......and Eggs.



























and Bacon!!
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Old 8th April 2012, 04:44 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Ausmerican View Post
How well do you think a big beach towel printed as the shroud would sell? I'd buy one.
Simpsons did it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_the_Vigilante
Quote:
Flanders tells Homer that his Shroud of Turin beach towels were stolen during one of the burglaries.
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Old 8th April 2012, 05:14 PM   #25
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Simpsons did it Simpsons did it Simpsons did it
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Old 9th April 2012, 07:04 PM   #26
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If the shroud is real, then Jesus dyed for our sins.
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Old 9th April 2012, 08:34 PM   #27
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Old 9th April 2012, 08:45 PM   #28
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On a bit of a tangent:

Quote:
But now here's the provocative part: De Wesselow's take on the resurrection - what he says happened on Easter Day when Mary Magdalene and two other women went to Jesus' tomb:

"They go to the body, they lift off the cloth, and they notice this strange shadowy form on the cloth itself," he said. "Immediately, they would have had this perception of it as a living presence in the tomb with Jesus."
One of the biggest problems with Christian scriptures is that the several accounts of "Easter" morning don't match up. This is supposed to be the single most important event to all of Christianity (don't say it was the crucifixion, because that wasn't at all novel), and the actual Gospel accounts can't even agree on what exactly took place that morning (or what morning it was or even who was there).
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Old 9th April 2012, 08:52 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
On a bit of a tangent:

One of the biggest problems with Christian scriptures is that the several accounts of "Easter" morning don't match up. This is supposed to be the single most important event to all of Christianity (don't say it was the crucifixion, because that wasn't at all novel), and the actual Gospel accounts can't even agree on what exactly took place that morning (or what morning it was or even who was there).
This ^

A careful reading of the canonical Gospels shows this pretty clearly. And THIS is the event the supposed authenticity of the shroud is based upon?

Not very impressive. Barely yawn-worthy, in fact.
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Old 9th April 2012, 11:02 PM   #30
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Quote:

"They go to the body, they lift off the cloth, and they notice this strange shadowy form on the cloth itself," he said. "Immediately, they would have had this perception of it as a living presence in the tomb with Jesus."
Only if they'd eaten or smoked something really quite extraordinary for breakfast that morning, IMO.
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Old 9th April 2012, 11:14 PM   #31
Craig B
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Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,216
Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Only if they'd eaten or smoked something really quite extraordinary for breakfast that morning, IMO.
This supplies some support - otherwise lacking - for Allegro's "Jesus was a magic mushroom" theory.
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