A personal dillema (quite long) - Page 2

Seismosaurus · 10th April 2012, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Enceladan

So I guess the reason I’m bringing this here is that I don’t know how to approach this. I’m going to be going against someone who is effectively an expert on the bible, apologetics, and everything else that goes along with it. At least, he’s an expert in that he’s been making this sort of thing his life, and will have ready arguments, counterpoints, and God on his side for all the handwaving defense needed if all else fails.

Perhaps the best way to approach it is not to engage in the argument? If you want to have justifications and arguments ready then that's fine, of course... but it's equally fine to simply decide not to. You are, after all, in no way required to justify yourself to others for your beliefs. A simple "I don't want to discuss it," or "whatever the arguments for and against, what it comes down to is that I no longer have faith," would save you a lot of work.

Quote:

I suppose I’ll ask if anyone has any suggestions for some quick reads (I don’t feel I have the luxury of reading a lot of books before I get cornered on this again), blogs, articles, etc., on some of the concepts like refuting biblical inerrancy, countering points on evolution that creationists constantly get wrong, and anything else that might be thought as relevant. I don’t have an issue with quoting things I’ve heard and read (because I *know* I’m going to have the bible quoted at me as if it were artillery), but I also want to at least try and better understand some things that I might use.

If you do want arguments, I like sites like this, this, and this.

Quote:

Am I wrong for feeling that I should at least make some effort to draw my line? And am I wrong for, at the same time, not wanting to fight that battle because I know that any question or point I can’t effectively counter is going to be thought of as a “point” against me and my stance on the matter? I’m aware that ultimately it won’t matter who “wins,” because I’m long past the point of anything from the bible swaying me, and I'm quite sure I won't put a dent in his armor either.

Ask yourself this : what purpose would be served by engaging them in this debate? There's nothing wrong with an honest discussion, but that's not what this sounds like. The implication seems to be that you're accountable to them for your views, that both you and they think you should either justify yourself to them or, if you can't, then you should change your beliefs.

I think you are not only right in drawing the line, but that you need to draw the line rather more firmly and tell them they're not welcome to cross it.

Scopedog · 15th April 2012, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by Enceladan

I’m going to be going against someone who is effectively an expert on the bible, apologetics, and everything else that goes along with it. At least, he’s an expert in that he’s been making this sort of thing his life, and will have ready arguments, counterpoints, and God on his side for all the handwaving defense needed if all else fails.

The way you articulated your story is wonderful and compelling. I can't offer too much advice but maybe it would help to confront him with the thought in mind that an expert on the bible is like an expert on Star Wars or Star Trek or Lord of the Rings or Dungeons and Dragons or the Twilight Trilogy. In other words, don't be intimidated and good luck!

sgtbaker · 15th April 2012, 06:19 PM

I echo everyone else; avoid the debate it's not worth it. If you do end up defending your position, the strongest stance you can have is to remember the bible is the claim. It doesn't matter how educated he is in biblical studies, the claim can never be the evidence.

Dani · 15th April 2012, 06:49 PM

Welcome to the forum, Enceladan!

If you have the time, I recommend you to watch this series of videos. I've never been a believer because my enviornment isn't especially religious (quite the contrary) but even so I was fascinated and felt like my own story was being told while I watched these videos. It's brilliantly explained, with lots of questions and answers that I'm sure you'll enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...A&feature=plcp

Here, the first video of the series:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

ETA: By the way. From what I've read, I think it's time for a little more introspection rather than debate, especially if the debate is with members of your own family, but that's up to you. These ideas take time. Use this forum as a way to polish your critical thinking skills, if you wish. If you ask me, finding your own internally consistent epistemology (the way you approach knowing stuff) is much more valuable than being an atheist, a theist or any other specific idea. You know, in order to build you need solid foundations.

RobDegraves · 15th April 2012, 06:59 PM

If you don't mind, I would like to offer a different kind of advice.

Don't avoid discussions on religious matters, but don't worry about winning or losing.

If you have a discussion on a subject and someone stumps you, that does not mean that this person is correct, though they could be. It does mean however that you have new information to examine critically. Too often we seem to think that decisions need to be taken before we have all the facts. That is what religion, and in fact most beliefs or bias, are all about.

Let's say I have a debate with someone, and he (or she) presents evidence that I didn't know existed or an argument that I cannot refute. I acknowledge the point politely (usually

), then go and research the information presented to the best of my ability. Only with actual knowledge, only with careful and deliberate thought can I base a position.

Religion tends to be a very emotional subject. Often both believers and apostates tend to have strong feelings on the subject. However, if you are looking for truth, you cannot let those emotions cloud the issue. Be honest with yourself and do your homework (which obviously you are trying to do).

A discussion is there to examine facts.

Decisions should only occur after all the facts have been looked at clearly.

Take your time.

Scopedog · 15th April 2012, 07:47 PM

Another thought that occurs to me that is worth having in mind when discussing this topic with your family: church politics. I assume that your family's church is just like any other. Its a microcosm of society and it probably has juvenile high school politics and cattiness and gossip and back-stabbing and two-facedness and hypocrisy. Your parents and sister and brother-in-law probably have rivals within the church that are literally salivating over the thought of anything going wrong in the lives of your family so they can tear them down behind their back and boast about how much more pious they are. Your family probably also understands this on some level, although they would almost certainly describe it differently. They have a vested interest in not being compromised and exposed by your actions and that will at least be a subconscious element of their reasoning.

Leumas · 15th April 2012, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by Enceladan

...

Anyway, I think I’ll conclude my post here. I know I was probably a little too general and vague about some things. I’m willing to elaborate if desired later on, especially if knowing something specific might help give a little bit of direction on how I can better handle this.

This book is IMHO the best book you could read. It is about a missionary who becomes an atheist and documents his step by step awakening.

Why I Believed: Reflections of a Former Missionary

The Kindle version is $0.99 and you do not need a Kindle device to read it. You can read it using any device (PC, Mac, iPad, Androids, Phones etc.) using the appropriate Amazon app.

The book has beautifully detailed reasoning against the apologetics that could be applied in your case and what makes it a lot more tangible is that it is from a person who used to apply the apologetics to convince himself along with others.

I think a few hours invested in reading this book would give you GREAT information to use in your own situation.

Also this book is excellent

The Christian Delusion: Why Faith Fails

Enceladan · 16th April 2012, 05:04 AM

So, now that I've had a few more days to think this over...

I agree that more introspection is necessary. I think "debate" may have been the wrong word to use, as I suppose my intent was more to draw the proverbial line and give my reasons without trying to win anyone over to my views. I'm not sure what I'd do if I actually managed to pull off a hat trick like that!

As for church politics, yes, a thousand times yes. I'm not completely certain that people are perched with spears in the trees, ready to pounce at the first sign of strife regarding me, but I do know of some occasions on other matters in the past where this has indeed been the case. Seems like there's always at least one family that has a lot of members in the church, and uses that influence to get their way. This one's not much different.

I think I've got a little bit of dissonance on the verge of full-blown ambivalence on the matter too, because I realize that, while I can't continue to be part of it or even condone it, the church is essentially my brother-in-law's livelihood. All other reasons aside, there's a realization on my part that I could very well cause issues with that.

(I'm sure some would be okay with that, but that's not really the point right now)

Leumas, I actually did pick up Why I believed a week or two ago when I saw it on sale, and started reading it this past week. I haven't finished it yet, but I'd also heartily agree and give it my endorsement. I'll take a look at the other one you suggested once I've finished it.

tsig · 16th April 2012, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by Enceladan

So, now that I've had a few more days to think this over...

I agree that more introspection is necessary. I think "debate" may have been the wrong word to use, as I suppose my intent was more to draw the proverbial line and give my reasons without trying to win anyone over to my views. I'm not sure what I'd do if I actually managed to pull off a hat trick like that!

As for church politics, yes, a thousand times yes. I'm not completely certain that people are perched with spears in the trees, ready to pounce at the first sign of strife regarding me, but I do know of some occasions on other matters in the past where this has indeed been the case. Seems like there's always at least one family that has a lot of members in the church, and uses that influence to get their way. This one's not much different.

I think I've got a little bit of dissonance on the verge of full-blown ambivalence on the matter too, because I realize that, while I can't continue to be part of it or even condone it, the church is essentially my brother-in-law's livelihood. All other reasons aside, there's a realization on my part that I could very well cause issues with that.

(I'm sure some would be okay with that, but that's not really the point right now)

Leumas, I actually did pick up Why I believed a week or two ago when I saw it on sale, and started reading it this past week. I haven't finished it yet, but I'd also heartily agree and give it my endorsement. I'll take a look at the other one you suggested once I've finished it.

It's hard to convince anyone of a fact when their paycheck depends on them not acknowledging that fact.

Leumas · 17th April 2012, 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by Enceladan

Leumas, I actually did pick up Why I believed a week or two ago when I saw it on sale, and started reading it this past week. I haven't finished it yet, but I'd also heartily agree and give it my endorsement. I'll take a look at the other one you suggested once I've finished it.

You may also enjoy watching these 22 videos (almost 3.5 hours altogether) about the deconversion of a previously quite theistic person. The videos are REALLY well done and very informative..... a very poignant story.

P.J. Denyer · 17th April 2012, 04:15 AM

Welcome to the wonderful world of JREF posting and congratulations on bootstrapping yourself out of belief under such difficult circumstances. I'm pleased to hear your parents are being so cool about it and even your sister and brother in law are still speaking to you!

I can only echo what others have said, this is your family and you have to consider if a debate will cause bad feeling and, if so, if it's worth it. Of course if your BiL and yourself can debate this subject and keep it friendly (and especially if it can be done on a mutual 'I didn't know that, can I go away, learn something about this and come back to you?' basis) then it could be very interesting and show that you're not close minded or insecure in your non belief. If you do get stumped, this is a great resource with plenty of people willing to look at the the arguments and help you rebut them.

Dani · 17th April 2012, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by Leumas

You may also enjoy watching these 22 videos (almost 3.5 hours altogether) about the deconversion of a previously quite theistic person. The videos are REALLY well done and very informative..... a very poignant story.

In fact, I mentioned it earlier. I saw those videos because you posted the link months ago in a different thread.

Leumas · 17th April 2012, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Dani

In fact, I mentioned it earlier. I saw those videos because you posted the link months ago in a different thread.

Sorry Dani... I did not see your posting.... but it is so good that it is worth posting about twice...

Leumas · 17th April 2012, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

Welcome to the wonderful world of JREF posting and congratulations on bootstrapping yourself out of belief under such difficult circumstances. I'm pleased to hear your parents are being so cool about it and even your sister and brother in law are still speaking to you!

I can only echo what others have said, this is your family and you have to consider if a debate will cause bad feeling and, if so, if it's worth it. Of course if your BiL and yourself can debate this subject and keep it friendly (and especially if it can be done on a mutual 'I didn't know that, can I go away, learn something about this and come back to you?' basis) then it could be very interesting and show that you're not close minded or insecure in your non belief. If you do get stumped, this is a great resource with plenty of people willing to look at the the arguments and help you rebut them.

And even if you do not get stumped.... it is probably quite entertaining and informative to post the points on JREF and open them for further discussion.

You might get more insight about the issues from all the people here, many of whom are impressively knowledgeable and hilariously witty to boot.

Even if you had a rebuttal yourself it might be worthwhile to see what others have to add..... just the links to other sites and citations that people do here would make the whole thing an invaluable education.... even from people who are religious.... I learn quite a lot from people who disagree with me; sometimes even more than from people who agree with me.... but only sometimes

dlorde · 17th April 2012, 02:54 PM

Enceladan, to stay on reasonable terms with the family (if that's going to be possible), you may find you need to make them aware that you understand the concerns they have and the difficulties your loss of faith will cause them; it may help to persuade them that it is not an act of explicit rejection or rebellion, simply that you have stopped believing. Letting them know you understand their position could help avoid the polarization of positions that can separate people emotionally.

RenaissanceBiker · 19th April 2012, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Enceladan

She then went on the attack, questioning me on all the things like how did I think we were created, what I thought was the purpose for life, things of that nature. I couldn’t defend myself that well against it.

The best answer to this type of question is, "I don't know and neither do you."

10th April 2012, 01:10 PM	#41
Seismosaurus Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Banbury Posts: 3,551	Originally Posted by Enceladan So I guess the reason I’m bringing this here is that I don’t know how to approach this. I’m going to be going against someone who is effectively an expert on the bible, apologetics, and everything else that goes along with it. At least, he’s an expert in that he’s been making this sort of thing his life, and will have ready arguments, counterpoints, and God on his side for all the handwaving defense needed if all else fails. Perhaps the best way to approach it is not to engage in the argument? If you want to have justifications and arguments ready then that's fine, of course... but it's equally fine to simply decide not to. You are, after all, in no way required to justify yourself to others for your beliefs. A simple "I don't want to discuss it," or "whatever the arguments for and against, what it comes down to is that I no longer have faith," would save you a lot of work. Quote: I suppose I’ll ask if anyone has any suggestions for some quick reads (I don’t feel I have the luxury of reading a lot of books before I get cornered on this again), blogs, articles, etc., on some of the concepts like refuting biblical inerrancy, countering points on evolution that creationists constantly get wrong, and anything else that might be thought as relevant. I don’t have an issue with quoting things I’ve heard and read (because I know I’m going to have the bible quoted at me as if it were artillery), but I also want to at least try and better understand some things that I might use. If you do want arguments, I like sites like this, this, and this. Quote: Am I wrong for feeling that I should at least make some effort to draw my line? And am I wrong for, at the same time, not wanting to fight that battle because I know that any question or point I can’t effectively counter is going to be thought of as a “point” against me and my stance on the matter? I’m aware that ultimately it won’t matter who “wins,” because I’m long past the point of anything from the bible swaying me, and I'm quite sure I won't put a dent in his armor either. Ask yourself this : what purpose would be served by engaging them in this debate? There's nothing wrong with an honest discussion, but that's not what this sounds like. The implication seems to be that you're accountable to them for your views, that both you and they think you should either justify yourself to them or, if you can't, then you should change your beliefs. I think you are not only right in drawing the line, but that you need to draw the line rather more firmly and tell them they're not welcome to cross it.
	__________________ Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal She carries beauty in her soul Last edited by Seismosaurus; 10th April 2012 at 01:11 PM.

15th April 2012, 06:04 PM	#42
Scopedog Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 285	Originally Posted by Enceladan I’m going to be going against someone who is effectively an expert on the bible, apologetics, and everything else that goes along with it. At least, he’s an expert in that he’s been making this sort of thing his life, and will have ready arguments, counterpoints, and God on his side for all the handwaving defense needed if all else fails. The way you articulated your story is wonderful and compelling. I can't offer too much advice but maybe it would help to confront him with the thought in mind that an expert on the bible is like an expert on Star Wars or Star Trek or Lord of the Rings or Dungeons and Dragons or the Twilight Trilogy. In other words, don't be intimidated and good luck!
Scopedog Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 285

15th April 2012, 06:19 PM	#43
sgtbaker Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 5,551	I echo everyone else; avoid the debate it's not worth it. If you do end up defending your position, the strongest stance you can have is to remember the bible is the claim. It doesn't matter how educated he is in biblical studies, the claim can never be the evidence.
sgtbaker Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 5,551

15th April 2012, 06:59 PM	#45
RobDegraves Muse Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 787	If you don't mind, I would like to offer a different kind of advice. Don't avoid discussions on religious matters, but don't worry about winning or losing. If you have a discussion on a subject and someone stumps you, that does not mean that this person is correct, though they could be. It does mean however that you have new information to examine critically. Too often we seem to think that decisions need to be taken before we have all the facts. That is what religion, and in fact most beliefs or bias, are all about. Let's say I have a debate with someone, and he (or she) presents evidence that I didn't know existed or an argument that I cannot refute. I acknowledge the point politely (usually ), then go and research the information presented to the best of my ability. Only with actual knowledge, only with careful and deliberate thought can I base a position. Religion tends to be a very emotional subject. Often both believers and apostates tend to have strong feelings on the subject. However, if you are looking for truth, you cannot let those emotions cloud the issue. Be honest with yourself and do your homework (which obviously you are trying to do). A discussion is there to examine facts. Decisions should only occur after all the facts have been looked at clearly. Take your time.
RobDegraves Muse Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 787	Last edited by RobDegraves; 15th April 2012 at 07:00 PM.

15th April 2012, 07:47 PM	#46
Scopedog Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 285	Another thought that occurs to me that is worth having in mind when discussing this topic with your family: church politics. I assume that your family's church is just like any other. Its a microcosm of society and it probably has juvenile high school politics and cattiness and gossip and back-stabbing and two-facedness and hypocrisy. Your parents and sister and brother-in-law probably have rivals within the church that are literally salivating over the thought of anything going wrong in the lives of your family so they can tear them down behind their back and boast about how much more pious they are. Your family probably also understands this on some level, although they would almost certainly describe it differently. They have a vested interest in not being compromised and exposed by your actions and that will at least be a subconscious element of their reasoning.
Scopedog Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 285

15th April 2012, 11:46 PM	#47
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	Originally Posted by Enceladan ... Anyway, I think I’ll conclude my post here. I know I was probably a little too general and vague about some things. I’m willing to elaborate if desired later on, especially if knowing something specific might help give a little bit of direction on how I can better handle this. This book is IMHO the best book you could read. It is about a missionary who becomes an atheist and documents his step by step awakening. *Why I Believed: Reflections of a Former Missionary* The Kindle version is $0.99 and you do not need a Kindle device to read it. You can read it using any device (PC, Mac, iPad, Androids, Phones etc.) using the *appropriate Amazon app. The book has beautifully detailed reasoning against the apologetics that could be applied in your case and what makes it a lot more tangible is that it is from a person who used to apply the apologetics to convince himself along with others. I think a few hours invested in reading this book would give you GREAT information to use in your own situation. Also this book is excellent The Christian Delusion: Why Faith Fails*
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	__________________ "I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't." - Jules Renard "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own." - Thomas Jefferson Last edited by Leumas; 16th April 2012 at 12:00 AM.

16th April 2012, 05:04 AM	#48
Enceladan New Blood Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 20	So, now that I've had a few more days to think this over... I agree that more introspection is necessary. I think "debate" may have been the wrong word to use, as I suppose my intent was more to draw the proverbial line and give my reasons without trying to win anyone over to my views. I'm not sure what I'd do if I actually managed to pull off a hat trick like that! As for church politics, yes, a thousand times yes. I'm not completely certain that people are perched with spears in the trees, ready to pounce at the first sign of strife regarding me, but I do know of some occasions on other matters in the past where this has indeed been the case. Seems like there's always at least one family that has a lot of members in the church, and uses that influence to get their way. This one's not much different. I think I've got a little bit of dissonance on the verge of full-blown ambivalence on the matter too, because I realize that, while I can't continue to be part of it or even condone it, the church is essentially my brother-in-law's livelihood. All other reasons aside, there's a realization on my part that I could very well cause issues with that. (I'm sure some would be okay with that, but that's not really the point right now) Leumas, I actually did pick up Why I believed a week or two ago when I saw it on sale, and started reading it this past week. I haven't finished it yet, but I'd also heartily agree and give it my endorsement. I'll take a look at the other one you suggested once I've finished it.
Enceladan New Blood Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 20

16th April 2012, 06:14 AM	#49
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,804	Originally Posted by Enceladan So, now that I've had a few more days to think this over... I agree that more introspection is necessary. I think "debate" may have been the wrong word to use, as I suppose my intent was more to draw the proverbial line and give my reasons without trying to win anyone over to my views. I'm not sure what I'd do if I actually managed to pull off a hat trick like that! As for church politics, yes, a thousand times yes. I'm not completely certain that people are perched with spears in the trees, ready to pounce at the first sign of strife regarding me, but I do know of some occasions on other matters in the past where this has indeed been the case. Seems like there's always at least one family that has a lot of members in the church, and uses that influence to get their way. This one's not much different. I think I've got a little bit of dissonance on the verge of full-blown ambivalence on the matter too, because I realize that, while I can't continue to be part of it or even condone it, the church is essentially my brother-in-law's livelihood. All other reasons aside, there's a realization on my part that I could very well cause issues with that. (I'm sure some would be okay with that, but that's not really the point right now) Leumas, I actually did pick up Why I believed a week or two ago when I saw it on sale, and started reading it this past week. I haven't finished it yet, but I'd also heartily agree and give it my endorsement. I'll take a look at the other one you suggested once I've finished it. It's hard to convince anyone of a fact when their paycheck depends on them not acknowledging that fact.

17th April 2012, 01:37 AM	#50
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	Originally Posted by Enceladan Leumas, I actually did pick up Why I believed a week or two ago when I saw it on sale, and started reading it this past week. I haven't finished it yet, but I'd also heartily agree and give it my endorsement. I'll take a look at the other one you suggested once I've finished it. You may also enjoy watching *these 22 videos* (almost 3.5 hours altogether) about the deconversion of a previously quite theistic person. The videos are REALLY well done and very informative..... a very poignant story.
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	__________________ "I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't." - Jules Renard "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own." - Thomas Jefferson Last edited by Leumas; 17th April 2012 at 01:39 AM.

17th April 2012, 04:15 AM	#51
P.J. Denyer Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,159	Welcome to the wonderful world of JREF posting and congratulations on bootstrapping yourself out of belief under such difficult circumstances. I'm pleased to hear your parents are being so cool about it and even your sister and brother in law are still speaking to you! I can only echo what others have said, this is your family and you have to consider if a debate will cause bad feeling and, if so, if it's worth it. Of course if your BiL and yourself can debate this subject and keep it friendly (and especially if it can be done on a mutual 'I didn't know that, can I go away, learn something about this and come back to you?' basis) then it could be very interesting and show that you're not close minded or insecure in your non belief. If you do get stumped, this is a great resource with plenty of people willing to look at the the arguments and help you rebut them.

17th April 2012, 07:07 AM	#52
Dani Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Barcelona, Spain Posts: 1,146	Originally Posted by Leumas You may also enjoy watching *these 22 videos* (almost 3.5 hours altogether) about the deconversion of a previously quite theistic person. The videos are REALLY well done and very informative..... a very poignant story. In fact, I mentioned it earlier. I saw those videos because you posted the link months ago in a different thread.
	__________________ Don't hesitate to correct my English. You will do me a favor.

17th April 2012, 02:14 PM	#53
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	Originally Posted by Dani In fact, I mentioned it earlier. I saw those videos because you posted the link months ago in a different thread. Sorry Dani... I did not see your posting.... but it is so good that it is worth posting about twice...
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	__________________ "I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't." - Jules Renard "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own." - Thomas Jefferson Last edited by Leumas; 17th April 2012 at 02:59 PM.

17th April 2012, 02:32 PM	#54
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer Welcome to the wonderful world of JREF posting and congratulations on bootstrapping yourself out of belief under such difficult circumstances. I'm pleased to hear your parents are being so cool about it and even your sister and brother in law are still speaking to you! I can only echo what others have said, this is your family and you have to consider if a debate will cause bad feeling and, if so, if it's worth it. Of course if your BiL and yourself can debate this subject and keep it friendly (and especially if it can be done on a mutual 'I didn't know that, can I go away, learn something about this and come back to you?' basis) then it could be very interesting and show that you're not close minded or insecure in your non belief. If you do get stumped, this is a great resource with plenty of people willing to look at the the arguments and help you rebut them. And even if you do not get stumped.... it is probably quite entertaining and informative to post the points on JREF and open them for further discussion. You might get more insight about the issues from all the people here, many of whom are impressively knowledgeable and hilariously witty to boot. Even if you had a rebuttal yourself it might be worthwhile to see what others have to add..... just the links to other sites and citations that people do here would make the whole thing an invaluable education.... even from people who are religious.... I learn quite a lot from people who disagree with me; sometimes even more than from people who agree with me.... but only sometimes
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	__________________ "I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't." - Jules Renard "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own." - Thomas Jefferson Last edited by Leumas; 17th April 2012 at 02:34 PM.

17th April 2012, 02:54 PM	#55
dlorde Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,647	Enceladan, to stay on reasonable terms with the family (if that's going to be possible), you may find you need to make them aware that you understand the concerns they have and the difficulties your loss of faith will cause them; it may help to persuade them that it is not an act of explicit rejection or rebellion, simply that you have stopped believing. Letting them know you understand their position could help avoid the polarization of positions that can separate people emotionally.
dlorde Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,647	__________________ Simple probability tells us that we should expect coincidences, and simple psychology tells us that we'll remember the ones we notice...

19th April 2012, 12:48 PM	#56
RenaissanceBiker Eats shoots and leaves. Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: South Carolina Posts: 6,810	Originally Posted by Enceladan She then went on the attack, questioning me on all the things like how did I think we were created, what I thought was the purpose for life, things of that nature. I couldn’t defend myself that well against it. The best answer to this type of question is, "I don't know and neither do you."
	__________________ "Truth does not contradict truth." - St. Augustine "Faith often contradicts faith. Therefore faith is not an indication of truth." - RenaissanceBiker