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Old 6th April 2012, 08:45 PM   #81
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by Mark6 View Post
BTW, I never thought to check iTunes. Maybe I will buy the rest of episodes there.
You will now purchase episodes 1 and 2, right? Because we wouldn't like to think that you are just a freeloading scumbag...

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser
Bab5 collection ... every single dvd has a 2 minute warning telling me piracy is a crime that CANNOT be skipped.
So what? I watched every episode of Babylon5 on TV, including many hours of adverts that couldn't be skipped, and a whole week (sometimes more) between episodes! Compared to that, having to sit through a short anti-piracy message before watching each DVD was so inconsequential that I barely even remember it (and I have watched the entire Babylon5 DVD set twice).

But here's the thing - if piracy wasn't an issue then that message wouldn't even need to be there in the first place. Who do you think I blame for the inconvenience? That's right, the pirates. They are the ones who are spoiling it for the rest of us.
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Old 6th April 2012, 11:06 PM   #82
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Quote:
did the creator give YOU permission to utilize their product? No. No they didn't.
Yes, yes they did. The owners of the content understand that DVDs might be borrowed, and they judge it to be inconsequential. The bit-torrent download the owners of the content deem to be outside of how they would like their property distributed.
It's simple.
You are correct that my example might be unrealistic.
What about car rentals? The contract asks who will be driving, and who will be responsible for potential damages. Even if I assume all responsibility for my buddy to drive the rental, if he's not on the contract, I have done wrong. The rental car is not mine.
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Old 7th April 2012, 11:52 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Torrenting does make a copy. So let's say after watching it the copy is deleted. Again what is the real world difference between the two as far as HBO is concerned? Does streaming it online make a copy? I must admit I don't know enough about the differences.
In one you are receiving data from an unauthorized distribution, in the other you are not.
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Old 7th April 2012, 12:31 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
In one you are receiving data from an unauthorized distribution, in the other you are not.
And normally you would be uploading it to multiple other users at the same time
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Old 8th April 2012, 12:57 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
In one you are receiving data from an unauthorized distribution, in the other you are not.
Aside from that, (if dealing with the analogy just by itself) we would all have to have a friend that just so happens to have every DVD ever made.
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Old 8th April 2012, 02:12 AM   #86
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My take:

1. We pay a satellite tv service every month. So there is money going out. Mentally, this is a credit.
2. The shows started being cut-off. We don't get Sci-Fi channel any more, for example.

3. Money is tight, we had to step-back the content.

4. For the, almost, twelve years we have being paying unknown parties each month, I have probably watched a handful of hours of actual content. The tv is watched by others - and mostly news channels.

5. Point 4 is tricky. There is no "fine-tuning" of the content. You get a firehose or a straw. We paid for the firehose for a long time.

Now, mix it with this:

1. Tv shows and movies are part of our global culture. Like books. Our metaphors, our similes, our very languages are woven-in among their memes.

2. Those who are deprived of books and audio-visual culture are deprived. Simple. You become a "hick" or an unsophisticated person. It's not the same level, but it's the same thing as being deprived of education; or not learning English, say.
(As an example, look at how important music, and the bands that make it, are to your identity. Yes, I mean Mozart too.)

3. The access to culture is vital. To cut that off is harm. There is some further ground for mentioning human rights here too. Isolation is bad for humans.

Now, the mixture:

1. I have paid money. It has gone, over the years, to every content provider. I feel that artists have been paid.

2. I never consumed that culture in the strict means by which I paid for it.

3. I now, decades later in some cases, fetch 'culture' from the Internet and watch it. Some are shows I recall being on tv as a kid. I never saw them then, but my parents had paid for it.

4. Should I be in jail? Should I pay even more money - again?

5. Should there not be a way that those less fortunate than me can access the same culture - at no charge?


I think there is an argument for a "profit period" on cultural products. They should have a span where they are locked-down and make money for the originators. After that, they should be free.

The world could be divided into those who pay to consume the latest and those who live five/ten years behind. They are not being abandoned in some pauper's isolation. They are not being prosecuted and fined either.

I suppose there are other mechanisms and ideas. I have never actually spoken to anyone on this subject, so this is a first-time unformed post really.


All I know is, something is rotten in the state of Trademark.
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Old 8th April 2012, 06:43 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
My take:

All I know is, something is rotten in the state of Trademark.
tl;dr - I feel entitled, so I download
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Old 8th April 2012, 07:18 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
I wished you luck because as far as the outcome to all parties there is no difference. In both cases you watched something for free. The only money the makers received is from the original DVD purchase your friend made. I could easily alter Scenario B slightly by not including downloading a torrent and only streaming it online from a 3rd party site. Now you did not break the law (I believe) and you will not potentially face tens of thousands of dollars in costs.

Just admit it. You tried to take a morally high stance when in fact your watching your friends DVD is no different financially to the creators from streaming it online for free. You got their content for free. So get off your high horse.
Try to tell me the primary reason most people download copywritten content on Bit Torrent is NOT to avoid paying for it.

Good luck.
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Old 8th April 2012, 07:23 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
tl;dr - I feel entitled, so I download
I feel so ... enrgaged.
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Old 8th April 2012, 07:49 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
tl;dr - I feel entitled, so I download
Whether you are serious or not is irrelevant. Dig underneath all the hyperbole, intellectual dishonesty and down right nonsensical excuses and I suspect your comment to be the common denominator.
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Old 8th April 2012, 09:32 AM   #91
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I wish there was a way to know if my suspiscions are generally correct: There are imaginative, enterprising people who spend their lives creating digital IP (like me) in the hopes of making a living, who tend to respect copyrights. And then there's the unwashed content consumers, aka dullards.
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Old 8th April 2012, 10:33 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I wish there was a way to know if my suspiscions are generally correct: There are imaginative, enterprising people who spend their lives creating digital IP (like me) in the hopes of making a living, who tend to respect copyrights. And then there's the unwashed content consumers, aka dullards.
While I hesitate to call folks 'dullards,' I agree with this 100%. It's a very hard concept to teach to kids who think that everything should be free, but I spend a lot of effort doing so.
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Old 8th April 2012, 04:53 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by OCaptain View Post
Try to tell me the primary reason most people download copywritten content on Bit Torrent is NOT to avoid paying for it.

Good luck.
Yes, that is a licensed use according to the seller.

However you getting a copy from someone, who is your friend is not a licensed use.

Borrowing your friends DVD, allowed, burning a copy for you, not allowed.
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Old 8th April 2012, 05:42 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I wish there was a way to know if my suspiscions are generally correct: There are imaginative, enterprising people who spend their lives creating digital IP (like me) in the hopes of making a living, who tend to respect copyrights. And then there's the unwashed content consumers, aka dullards.
I think there is quite a spectrum of consumers. Some people pirate everything and don't pay for anything. Ok, they probably weren't in the consumer pool anyway.

These days the savy IP businesses are figuring out ways to monetize the non paying consumers. Free to play games are a good example of this. There are all kinds of value that you get just from the person playing your game, whether or not you monetize that particular person. For example you can use their social media to advertise the game to their network, you can target them with advertising and of course you can entice them to actually buy something once they are hooked.

Personally I pay for the IP that I use but I can afford to do so.
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Old 9th April 2012, 06:55 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Yes, that is a licensed use according to the seller.

However you getting a copy from someone, who is your friend is not a licensed use.

Borrowing your friends DVD, allowed, burning a copy for you, not allowed.
Could you clarify, because it sounds like you're saying that downloading copywritten content via the torrents IS acceptable?
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Old 9th April 2012, 10:53 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Mark6 View Post
Months ago I cancelled my cable subscription because it is blatantly not worth $100 a month to me. My family does not watch much TV, and what we do watch we get for free from the web, or for $8 a month from Netflix. This week for the first time since cancelling cable I wanted to watch something not legally available on web (including Netflix) -- Season 2 of "Game of Thrones". I went to HBO Go website, as some ads suggested I could buy the show there. That turned out not to be the case -- once you click on "Game of Thrones episode X", it takes you to a page which sells you complete HBO package. Which I emphatically do not want.

After finding that out, I installed a Bit Torrent downloader, and downloaded first and second episodes of Season Two. I would have happily paid HBO five or six dollars per episode -- which would actually bring HBO more money than buying a DVD set after season ends. But HBO is not offering shows a la carte... so screw them.
No big thing. We pay for U-Verse, but won't pay for the premium channels, because you don't get very much for the money. If I really wanted to see a show from one of them, but couldn't find a decent legit copy to watch, I'd download it in a heartbeat (OK, so it takes a little longer than that to download).

Funny thing, I read a few posts in this thread, then stopped to read an email that'd just shown up, regarding the annual Edible Books contest. The very last winning item shown.....
http://www.library.illinois.edu/edib...12gallery.html
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Old 10th April 2012, 11:21 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by OP
Why I do not feel guilty about using Bit Torrent?
Because it's analogous to sharing. If my friend borrows my copy of Game of Thrones, should they feel guilty about watching it without having purchased the set?

Weren't we told to share when we were younglings?
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Old 11th April 2012, 04:38 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Mark6, you can feel however you want, but the fact that HBO doesn't want to sell you something right away (you know it will be available by other means at some point) doesn't make it right to violate their copyright.

HBO has a business model that's worked for them a long time. When it stops working, and when contracts start running out, they'll change. One would think that when their business model supports the production of high-quality television, that should be a reason for consumers to support it, either by purchasing a subscription to their service or buying the shows through legitimate means when they become available in other formats.
So does this mean it's a good thing to get a whole subscription just to watch 1 program (not that then one should go pirate it otherwise)?
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Old 11th April 2012, 04:40 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
Whether you are serious or not is irrelevant. Dig underneath all the hyperbole, intellectual dishonesty and down right nonsensical excuses and I suspect your comment to be the common denominator.
What does it mean for one if the "nonsense" actually seems to make sense for them?
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Old 11th April 2012, 09:42 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by mike3 View Post
So does this mean it's a good thing to get a whole subscription just to watch 1 program (not that then one should go pirate it otherwise)?
I think it's ideal to pay the fees available for what you want and if the cost is too high then don't consume the content at all. Even better, communicate your dissatisfaction with the content owner. Downloading the content for free doesn't really help the situation in the long run.

Most people haven't watched everything they'd end up liking anyway - content that might indeed be available at reasonable cost. So why not skip the stuff that isn't being made available under acceptable terms and watch something else?

I feel like noting here that I don't have any strong feelings about how others violate copyright. What I do have strong feelings about are the excuses/justifications for it. Pretending that there's some nobility to it, or that somehow people are entitled to free content - apart of course from that which is offered for free from the start (network TV shows, by the way, are not) - sends absolutely the wrong message to content creators and (forgive me) to kids.
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Old 14th April 2012, 08:43 AM   #101
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So what about an out of print music album? I can't find the CD at any used record stores, it's not on itunes or ebay or Amazon but a fat lossless rip appears with seeds on Demonoid. If I download it, does this make me a criminal?
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Old 14th April 2012, 08:58 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Wirelight View Post
So what about an out of print music album? I can't find the CD at any used record stores, it's not on itunes or ebay or Amazon but a fat lossless rip appears with seeds on Demonoid. If I download it, does this make me a criminal?
Yes it is still illegal. Why is everyone struggling with this so much? You don't HAVE to have the album. You want it.
If you can't get it legally you can choose to get it illegally.
Not exactly crime of the century I agree, but the rights to it still belong to somebody else and you are choosing to ignore how they have chosen to distribute it (or when they stop distributing it) and that choice is the owners, not yours.

Does everyone here still do it? Possibly, but at least most would accept it is illegal. The defences that it's somehow morally right or okay because it's a bit like borrowing, just aren't valid.
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Old 14th April 2012, 09:22 AM   #103
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Quote:
You don't HAVE to have the album. You want it.
And I would buy because I want it but I cannot because of a business decision. I'm just going to say, like the OP, I don't have one shred of guilt about grabbing something off bittorrent if it's not available to purchase.

And how does the argument of them (RIAA) losing a sale apply when the album hasn't been available in years?
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Old 14th April 2012, 09:25 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Wirelight View Post
And how does the argument of them (RIAA) losing a sale apply when the album hasn't been available in years?
The person you are replying to didn't make that argument. Neither are a lot of other people.
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Old 14th April 2012, 09:28 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
1. Have you ever watched a friends dvd of a movie or tv show?

2. Please explain to me the differences in the real world effects on all parties in the following two scenarios.

Scenario A: Your friend buys a dvd of The Matrix. He watches it, and tells you it is awesome and you should see it. You go over to his house and watch the dvd with him.

Scenario B: Your friend buys a dvd of The Matrix. He watches it, and tells you it is awesome and you should see it. You go online and watch the movie without paying for it via torrent or streaming from a 3rd party site.

Good luck.
With regard to this example there are a few reasons why it is difference.

In Scenario one only one copy and it must physically be where the viewer is. Only one person owns it or can use it at any one time (so the amont of people who an watch that DVD is physically limited).

You may think The Matrix is great. Maybe you'd like to watch it again some time. Scenario A encourages you to buy your own copy so you can do so. Always going to your friends whenever you want to watch it is not as convenient as having your own copy (so you are paying for the act of owning a copy you can view whenever you want). If couse your friend might lend/give you his copy but then he doesn't have it to watch when he wants.

But far more importantly in scenario 2 one copy can be distributed to thousands of people. That's why companies have no issue with people lending their DVDs to a friend, but there is an issue with them copying the DVD and making it available to anyone in the world. Te thousand people could download from that one ripped copy that was ought for 10 pounds.
Clearly Scenario B has a significant financial impact on the profits of the company, whereas Scenario A has a vastly smaller impact (ten thousand copies fewer sold versus one copy fewer sold).

Making these shows and films costs money. Therefore it is the creators right to choose how to distribute it, not anyone else's.

So the third reason is - that's what copyright law states and how the owners have chosen to dstribute it.
Don't like that? Fine, then don't watch the programme. That's your choice. You don't have a human right to be given the next Matrix film for free.

Finally, fourthly, your friend won't own every film you want to see. Bittorrent probably will. Without Bittorrent if you don't know anyone who owns those films/programmes you want to watch then you'd have to go and legally get them. Bittorrent removes that requirement and thus removes that income for the companies.

If you choose to ignore this and download an llegal copy, fine, but I don't understand how people believe a 'legal' or 'moral' defence can be made just because they want to watch something, but don't want to pay for it (and don't knw someone they can borrow it from).
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Old 14th April 2012, 09:32 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Wirelight View Post
And I would buy because I want it but I cannot because of a business decision. I'm just going to say, like the OP, I don't have one shred of guilt about grabbing something off bittorrent if it's not available to purchase.
Well that's fine. As has been said before many people may not feel guilt about doing something illegal.
That doesnt alter the fact that it is illegal.
You not feeling guilty about it doesn't make it somehow legal again.
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Old 14th April 2012, 09:37 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Wirelight View Post
And I would buy because I want it but I cannot because of a business decision. I'm just going to say, like the OP, I don't have one shred of guilt about grabbing something off bittorrent if it's not available to purchase.

And how does the argument of them (RIAA) losing a sale apply when the album hasn't been available in years?
The may be planning to rerelease at a later date in conjunction with a tour, or some new marketing cmpaign, or the cost of distributing may be greater than any revenue they would receive, maybe they are choosing to distribute the album through a smaller company to help it start up, maybe the rights have been bough as part of a new TV Show and the plan to release as a tie-in. Maybe it even IS available but you havent stumbled across where to buy it (like the OP).
Who knows. Could be any one of a hundred business reasons. But again the decision is the owners' to make.
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Old 15th April 2012, 01:13 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Wirelight View Post
So what about an out of print music album? I can't find the CD at any used record stores, it's not on itunes or ebay or Amazon but a fat lossless rip appears with seeds on Demonoid. If I download it, does this make me a criminal?
Maybe. It means you probably broke the law.

And I think the laws suck. It's absurd that we are still at a point where it's illegal to download all sorts of older content.
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Old 17th April 2012, 07:41 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Mark6 View Post
Correct. HBO will only sell an entire subscription. 95% of which I do not want. How would you feel if you went to a supermarket for two pounds of beef, and were told "Sorry, we only sell a whole steer"?
But because of this it is now ok to go steal two pounds of beef? That's the part I don't get.
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Old 17th April 2012, 07:56 AM   #110
Almo
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Originally Posted by IDB87 View Post
Because it's analogous to sharing. If my friend borrows my copy of Game of Thrones, should they feel guilty about watching it without having purchased the set?

Weren't we told to share when we were younglings?
It's not even remotely analogous. If your friend borrows your copy of Game of Thrones, you cannot watch it while they have it.
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Old 17th April 2012, 07:57 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Almo View Post
But because of this it is now ok to go steal two pounds of beef? That's the part I don't get.
That's not the same.

Someone buys two pounds of beef - they then (through SCIENCE!) replicate the beef and give it away for free. OP takes the free two pounds of beef, and does what they will with it.

How is that stealing? OP wasn't going to buy the original beef, and the person who did buy it gave a copy of the original away for free.
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Old 17th April 2012, 08:40 AM   #112
TheL8Elvis
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Originally Posted by IDB87 View Post
That's not the same.

Someone buys two pounds of beef - they then (through SCIENCE!) replicate the beef and give it away for free. OP takes the free two pounds of beef, and does what they will with it.

How is that stealing? OP wasn't going to buy the original beef, and the person who did buy it gave a copy of the original away for free.
It's not stealing. It's copyright infringement. Most people in this thread have been fairly careful to make that distinction.
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Old 17th April 2012, 09:33 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
It's not stealing. It's copyright infringement. Most people in this thread have been fairly careful to make that distinction.
I know that. I was pointing it out to the person who didn't get it.

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Old 17th April 2012, 01:42 PM   #114
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I'm lucky in that I can afford to buy the stuff I like. Occasionally I'll infringe, largely in cases where I can't find a legit source (eg I spent a long time tracking down an Oz retailer who sold the DVD of 1900 and bought it). Is it legal? No. Am I ok with it? Yes because usually I've tried to pay and it's a victimless crime - until such time as the owner releases the content I want.
An interesting discussion of some of the issues http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2...ke-beating.ars
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Old 17th April 2012, 02:50 PM   #115
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file sharing

I have seen many recordings of unavailable(or out of print) audio and I am sure video too is out there. I believe life is too short. Any preservation is ok to me but not when used to distribute pirated (wholesale type) material with box and graphics. The quality seems to be low tho(depending on uploader)...unless one has high speed connections and apps to improve download.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 01:50 AM   #116
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I wonder... we downloaded Game of Thrones when season 1 was running, but we had every intention of getting the blu-rays whenever they'd come out. I knew 100% that I would buy them, and I did. I will do the same with all future seasons.

Is it still "wrong" (I'm not asking if it's illegal, I don't care one bit about that :P) to download a TV series that you know in advance you'll purchase on hard disc? I really don't think so. I got to watch the show a bit in advance, but no one was deprived of a sale.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 02:57 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post
I wonder... we downloaded Game of Thrones when season 1 was running, but we had every intention of getting the blu-rays whenever they'd come out. I knew 100% that I would buy them, and I did. I will do the same with all future seasons.

Is it still "wrong" (I'm not asking if it's illegal, I don't care one bit about that :P) to download a TV series that you know in advance you'll purchase on hard disc? I really don't think so. I got to watch the show a bit in advance, but no one was deprived of a sale.
Yup, I do the same as you, and feel more justified as the show takes some weeks (or months, or years depending on the show) to make it to Australia. Plus I already have a HBO subscription (through Foxtel) so nobody is losing money. I will certainly buy the blu-rays when they come out.

Technically guilty, but I don't feel so.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 03:55 AM   #118
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I think it is obviously wrong to use bittorrent, and people, including me, will use a variety of rationales for their own situation.
My rather convoluted rationale is that as a UK citizen it is impossible to watch on tv, or online, or to pay via itunes ephermeral shows such as Letterman, Daily show with Jon Stewart, the Colbert report or Bill Mayer. Also very often we can't even see snippets on websites like the Hufffington Post.
Downloading is technically wrong in the above example, but I really do not care.
2nd situation: I do pay for a Sky satellite subscription so can watch HBO shows as bought for Sky Atlantic. Sometimes I have the urge to watch the show the day before, so I download. Has the advantages of often leaving out ads. Timewise, Sky now try to show the shows almost immediately after U.S. showing, so really I don't have a great excuse there. Another, smaller station shows Dexter, but a few months later. I am sorry to say that under the "I am paying my subscription so am not really getting it for free" argument I watch that too with Bittorrent. This is less good ethically as ( and actually this applies to the U.S. chat shows too) I am depriving the makers or the broadcasters of the advertising that otherwise I would be subjected too that might influence me, and I am enabling others who may not have paid anything to upload from my computer via bittorrent.
Then wholly wrong would be the odd film that one doesn't really rate too much (otherwise I would see in the cinema or buy on dvd). There is obviously no justification for this, except again in my view for the odd Woody Allen film that looks as if it will never be released in the UK.
Basically, one can't deny the law, or the principles behind it, but the makers of these programmes would do themselves a favour by enabling easy access at a competitive price.
But with the exception of chat shows etc, the responsible thing would be to buy the box sets at some point when the price was acceptable and avoid forums which discuss the plots.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 07:46 AM   #119
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it is not illegal to download tv shows so why not
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Old 22nd April 2012, 08:12 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Mark6 View Post
I cancelled my cable subscription because it is blatantly not worth $100 a month
100 USD per month sounds a lot for television. Even more so because I assume American television to waste a lot of the viewers´time with advertisements. At least one would assume to get ad-free 100% content for such a sum of money.

In Finland I pay 20 EUR per month as a compulsory television ownership tax, which funds the two free national totally ad-free channels, plus some 10 other free ad-funded channels.

(The television tax is a self-reported tax, people report that they own a television and then pay it monthly. Inspectors randomly knock the doors of homes which have not reported owning a television, but they have no right to actually step in and inspect the home, they just hope that the person admits at the door having a television, which often happens too. I didn´t pay the tax in early adulthood, because the sum felt injustly high for a student´s income level. The tax is quite popularly left unpaid by students, and to some extent also by the unemployed.)

Then I pay another 20 EUR per month for a Russian Internet television provider, for some 50 channels and a streaming library of some 300 latest Hollywood movies. A more typical Finnish person pays 40 EUR per month for a commercial television package and streaming movie library aimed for a Finnish audience.

I do my share of illegal streaming too, when FC Barcelona play a match in some tournament which the Russian Football 1 channel doesn´t show. Then I simply go to a Russian forum where people share links to not very legal live streams of sport television channels.

Last edited by JJM 777; 22nd April 2012 at 08:23 AM.
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