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Old 11th April 2012, 05:08 PM   #1881
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
You still haven't explained what you exactly mean by "it".
What do you think we have been talking about?
Here's a great answer.

Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
Of course, the thousand year reign comes at the end of all the horrors predicted in Revelation; after the four horsemen of the apocalypse have gone out to wreak destruction, after the star Wormwood has fallen into the sea, after most of the human race has been annihilated, and so on. It also takes place after the seven years of tribulation, the reign of the Beast, people being forced to take the mark of the Beast, etc.

Thus, that which must take place "soon" doesn't conflict with the millennial kingdom. The setting up of that kingdom would have been only seven years or so down the road from when John of Patmos penned his revelation.

This fits with the prediction Jesus supposedly gave in the "Little Apocalypse," also called the "Olivet Discourse" (Mark 13:30):

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things be done.

"All these things" include the sun and moon being darkened, stars falling from the sky, the Son of man appearing in the clouds and the angels gathering in the elect (Mk. 13:24 - 27). The usual dodge Christian apologists resort to this is brought up is to assert that "generation" (Gr. genaea) actually should be read as "people" (Gr. genos). Thus, this people," i.e. the Jews, will not pass away until these things happen. In other words, the only way to make the Bible prophecy "true" is to make the Bible not say what it actually says.
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Old 11th April 2012, 05:09 PM   #1882
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
DOC: Why do you even care when the end will come?
This daft Rapture idea?
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Old 11th April 2012, 05:11 PM   #1883
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Doc, why do you take seriously the ramblings of a man who obviously wrote Revelation under the influence of some powerful hallucinogenic? Either that or he was just plain crazy.
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Old 11th April 2012, 06:02 PM   #1884
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
You still haven't explained what you exactly mean by "it".
Prescient that I recently quoted William Jefferson Clinton in this thread!
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Old 11th April 2012, 06:04 PM   #1885
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Prescient that I recently quoted William Jefferson Clinton in this thread!
As evidenced earlier, DOC has a hard time with pronouns. He needs to believe they are ambiguous in order to support his belief systems.
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Old 11th April 2012, 06:58 PM   #1886
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
As evidenced earlier, DOC has a hard time with pronouns. He needs to believe they are ambiguous in order to support his belief systems.
Has anyone ever actually seen DOC and Bill Clinton in the same place at the same time?

I mean, is the following not "DOC-worthy"?

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true."

Spooky, eh?
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Old 11th April 2012, 07:07 PM   #1887
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
It doesn't say will start soon, it says will come to pass soon. A thousand year reign can not come to pass soon so this implies the come to pass shortly applies to other things such such as things John wrote will happen to the 7 churches he immediately started to talk about.
You haven't read my #1862, have you? Please do so, and tell me why I am mistaken. I have said that a thousand year reign can "come to pass" soon. Refute me if you want to go on saying it can't.

The best treatment of Revelation by any commentator may be found here, along with a similar take on other books of the Bible. http://www.bricktestament.com/
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Old 11th April 2012, 08:13 PM   #1888
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
It doesn't say will start soon, it says will come to pass soon. A thousand year reign can not come to pass soon so this implies the come to pass shortly applies to other things such such as things John wrote will happen to the 7 churches he immediately started to talk about.
Even if we were to allow this goal post to be shifted unchallenged those things never came to pass for the 7 Churches. However "All these things shall soon come to pass" seems pretty straight-forward to me.

Originally Posted by DOC
Plus the fact Christ said go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
Sure. Why don't you try sharing the gospel with a hungry gator and report back to us how interested they are in hearing it?

Originally Posted by DOC
There are millions of people living today who have never heard the gospel.
[sarcasm]Oh gee if only someone would invent a magical communications tool that connect billions of living breathing humans together so they could share thoughts and ideas over vast distances even in third world countries like the Internet does.[/sarcasm]


Originally Posted by DOC
And the official recognized bible of the church was not determined until 398 A.D. at the Council of Carthage by hundreds of bishops. This is about 300 years after John wrote Revelation. Those bishops could have simply dropped Revelation from the bible if they were concerned about the "come to pass shortly" wording written 300 years earlier. They must have not been that concerned because the many bishops chose to include Revelation as part of the official cannon of the Church.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here but didn't Revelation almost didn't make it into the Bible?
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Last edited by Mudcat; 11th April 2012 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 11th April 2012, 08:35 PM   #1889
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here but didn't Revelation almost didn't make it into the Bible?
Eastern Orthodoxy appears to have been reluctant to accept Revelation. It was finally defined as part of the Eastern canon at the Synod of Jerusalem in 1672. However, it is not present in the Orthodox lectionary, from which passages are read during church services. It is the only NT book omitted in this way.
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Old 11th April 2012, 11:35 PM   #1890
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We don't need to limit ourselves to Revelation 1 to find a soon or a shortly. Here's the NIV version of Chapter 22. What are these words supposed to mean, DOC, if not what they clearly say?
Quote:
6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.” 7 “Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.” ... 12 “Look, I am coming soon! ... "
And when you've explained that, please tell us how a prophecy of stars falling out of the sky can be reconciled with current knowledge of the sizes and distances of the stars.
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:45 AM   #1891
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Plus the fact Christ said go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. There are millions of people living today who have never heard the gospel. There is an implication there that the end will not happen until every person alive has at least had a chance to hear the gospel.

And if this is the case, since there are more people being born all the time, the prophecy can never be fulfilled.

Well done.
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Old 12th April 2012, 03:07 AM   #1892
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
And if this is the case, since there are more people being born all the time, the prophecy can never be fulfilled.

Well done.
The population here in Belgium is increasing, religion is in decline so there are less people to preach the gospel nonsense so yes, the prophecy can never be fulfilled. Well done again Doc, you keep coming up with reasons why no prophecy has been fulfilled or ever will be fulfilled.
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Old 12th April 2012, 05:03 AM   #1893
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
There are millions of people living today who have never heard the gospel.
...and there are billions who have, and have rejected it, either preferring another mythology or none at all.

What do those billions have in store for them in the end times? I assume a benevolent God has something nice planned!
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Old 12th April 2012, 05:10 AM   #1894
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
And if this is the case, since there are more people being born all the time, the prophecy can never be fulfilled.

Well done.
Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is:

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
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Old 12th April 2012, 05:17 AM   #1895
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
...and there are billions who have {heard the gospel}, and have rejected it, either preferring another mythology or none at all...
I doubt billions have heard the gospel and rejected it.
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Old 12th April 2012, 05:19 AM   #1896
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
...and then the end will come.
The end of what???

I watched an interesting DOCumentary called "Waiting For Armageddon". Available streaming on NetFlix.

Pretty sad the potential that has been squandered over the years by generations sure the end was nigh...

...and was wrong again and again and again...
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Old 12th April 2012, 05:25 AM   #1897
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
I doubt billions have heard the gospel and rejected it.
How many Hindus and Muslims have lived in the past? How many atheists? How many adherents of other religions?
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Old 12th April 2012, 05:26 AM   #1898
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is:

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
So we can be sure that the end will never come. The gospel has been preached all over the world. You are so good at shooting yourself in the foot.

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Old 12th April 2012, 05:44 AM   #1899
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is:

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
In other words, the book of revelation contradicts another book of the bible's prophecy.
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Old 12th April 2012, 05:50 AM   #1900
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Has anyone ever actually seen DOC and Bill Clinton in the same place at the same time?

I mean, is the following not "DOC-worthy"?

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true."

Spooky, eh?
in defense of Clinton, I actually understand what he was going for here. He was talking about whether the statement "There is nothing going on between me and ms lewinsky" could be truthful if he was not carrying on an affair with her at the time he said that, even if he had done so in the past. A dishonest thing to say, to be sure, but not as logic-chopping as it is made out.
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Old 12th April 2012, 05:53 AM   #1901
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
I doubt billions have heard the gospel and rejected it.
2/3rd of the world are something other than christian. the current world population is somewhere around 6.8 billion people. That means 4.5 billion people are in this world are something other than christian.

In order for your "Doubt" to be validated, you would have to assume that less than 22% of those people (1billion or few) had actually heard the gospels.

Given the wide spread nature of missionaries and christian churches throughout the world, such a claim is laughable.
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Old 12th April 2012, 05:53 AM   #1902
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
I doubt billions have heard the gospel and rejected it.
I doubt your doubt.

How about another category in the poll: I have heard the gospel and rejected it?

I'll go first.

Just 999,999,999 to go for the first billion!
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Old 12th April 2012, 06:02 AM   #1903
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is:

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

You were using "every person alive [not having] had a chance to hear the gospel" as an excuse for the failure of the specific prophecy that a thousand year reign would soon come to pass. If your argument is correct, then the thousand year reign can never come to pass, because more people are always being born, and thus there will always be some who have not yet heard the gospel.

Either your excuse is not valid, or you have yourself demonstrated that the prophecy can never be fulfilled.
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Old 12th April 2012, 06:05 AM   #1904
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
2/3rd of the world are something other than christian. the current world population is somewhere around 6.8 billion people. That means 4.5 billion people are in this world are something other than christian.

In order for your "Doubt" to be validated, you would have to assume that less than 22% of those people (1billion or few) had actually heard the gospels.

Given the wide spread nature of missionaries and christian churches throughout the world, such a claim is laughable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_missionaries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...aries_in_China

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...aries_in_India

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...c_Missionaries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...aries_in_China

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuit_China_missions
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Old 12th April 2012, 06:47 AM   #1905
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DOC, why did you go off-topic and bring up a prophecy that even you agree has not been fulfilled?

Have you given up trying to defend ones that you believe actually have been?

I don't blame you.
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Old 12th April 2012, 07:37 AM   #1906
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is:

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
OK - so when did this prophecy get fulfilled?
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Old 12th April 2012, 08:09 AM   #1907
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is:

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
So what you're saying is that the only thing preventing the end of the world is the fact that there are peoples out there, like the Sentinelese, who will never hear the gospel because they'll kill those who attempt to arrive on their land?
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Old 12th April 2012, 08:23 AM   #1908
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Maybe the Christians could do like the Mormons, reading people into the book of the dead so that they can receive the gospel posthumously.
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Old 12th April 2012, 09:27 AM   #1909
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is:

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Why stop there? The prophetic words continue in later verses of that chapter, and a time limit is set:
Quote:
34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
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Old 12th April 2012, 10:00 AM   #1910
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
So what you're saying is that the only thing preventing the end of the world is the fact that there are peoples out there, like the Sentinelese, who will never hear the gospel because they'll kill those who attempt to arrive on their land?
We often hear many people pop into DOC's train wrecks, and ask why people even bother to participate, but you know what, I love 'em.

Thanks Wildy, I've learnt something new today. Thanks for the link.

I'f DOC's god has revealed herself to the Sentinelese, I'll be a believer. If not and they have a different god, then why is theirs any less important than yours DOC?
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Old 12th April 2012, 10:38 AM   #1911
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6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The furthest stars from the Earth are billions of light years away. If the end times are starting soon Doc, it will take them a long time to fall to Earth, even traveling at the speed of light. Observation tells us that no stars are moving en masse towards the Earth so the end time will not be coming anytime soon.
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Old 12th April 2012, 10:40 AM   #1912
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Observation tells us that no stars are moving en masse towards the Earth so the end time will not be coming anytime soon.
Depends on your definition of "soon", doesn't it?
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Old 12th April 2012, 10:42 AM   #1913
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Originally Posted by Lamuella View Post
in defense of Clinton, I actually understand what he was going for here. He was talking about whether the statement "There is nothing going on between me and ms lewinsky" could be truthful if he was not carrying on an affair with her at the time he said that, even if he had done so in the past. A dishonest thing to say, to be sure, but not as logic-chopping as it is made out.
I've always had sincere admiration for that line. Two huge spheres of steel with a mind and mouth behind them. I didn't like the dishonesty, but admired the chutzpah.
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Old 12th April 2012, 10:45 AM   #1914
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Depends on your definition of "soon", doesn't it?
It is similar to the difference between "will" and "shall". "Soon" is conveniently qualitative.
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Old 12th April 2012, 10:51 AM   #1915
dafydd
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Depends on your definition of "soon", doesn't it?
The biblical ''soon'' seems to be anytime between tomorrow and the next 14 billion years.
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Old 12th April 2012, 11:21 AM   #1916
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The furthest stars from the Earth are billions of light years away. If the end times are starting soon Doc, it will take them a long time to fall to Earth, even traveling at the speed of light. Observation tells us that no stars are moving en masse towards the Earth so the end time will not be coming anytime soon.
And even if they were moving in that direction, it would be like a myriad footballs falling on to a mote of dust.
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Old 12th April 2012, 11:53 AM   #1917
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
And even if they were moving in that direction, it would be like a myriad footballs falling on to a mote of dust.
Yes, there are stars that are millions of times bigger than the Earth, but drug addled John didn't know that. I wonder why god didn't tell him?
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Old 12th April 2012, 12:01 PM   #1918
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Even if we were to allow this goal post to be shifted unchallenged those things never came to pass for the 7 Churches. However "All these things shall soon come to pass" seems pretty straight-forward to me.
Which verse in Revelation says "All these things shall soon come to pass" and what translation are you using.
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Old 12th April 2012, 12:05 PM   #1919
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Here DOC - ?

I had an extra.
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Old 12th April 2012, 12:14 PM   #1920
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Which verse in Revelation says "All these things shall soon come to pass" and what translation are you using.
When can I expect the stars to fall on me?
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