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Old 10th April 2012, 03:56 PM   #41
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Five Titanic myths spread by films

I have just watched Titanic: Case Closed on natgeo.

It presents scientific evidence that puts paid to the myth of the watch sleeping, Captain Lord ignoring the Titanic sinking and ignoring aldis morse signals from Titanic.

This is explained by cold water mirages and refraction.

Worth watching.
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Old 10th April 2012, 04:38 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Skwinty View Post
I have just watched Titanic: Case Closed on natgeo.

It presents scientific evidence that puts paid to the myth of the watch sleeping, Captain Lord ignoring the Titanic sinking and ignoring aldis morse signals from Titanic.

This is explained by cold water mirages and refraction.

Worth watching.
Call me skeptical. Cable TV specials aren't exactly known for presenting all the sides of an issue. There's a fair amount of evidence for the story as-is:

  • Both ships were known to be in the same area
  • Both ships saw another ship
  • Californian reported seeing the other ship firing rockets, which the Titanic is known to have done
I'd also include Lord's constant story-changing about what he saw and why he didn't do anything, but a fair case can be made that he was trying to salvage his career, dignity, and/or reputation.



There's a lot to explain away with "cold water mirages and refraction." I can accept that, under just the right conditions, a similar effect might be possible. But I gotta ask, is it likely?


I think the simpler (and thus more plausible) explanation is the story as it's known; Californian was close enough for both ships to see each other, and for reasons known only to a man long dead, opted not to do anything.
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Old 10th April 2012, 05:15 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Call me skeptical. Cable TV specials aren't exactly known for presenting all the sides of an issue. There's a fair amount of evidence for the story as-is:

  • Both ships were known to be in the same area
  • Both ships saw another ship
  • Californian reported seeing the other ship firing rockets, which the Titanic is known to have done
I'd also include Lord's constant story-changing about what he saw and why he didn't do anything, but a fair case can be made that he was trying to salvage his career, dignity, and/or reputation.



There's a lot to explain away with "cold water mirages and refraction." I can accept that, under just the right conditions, a similar effect might be possible. But I gotta ask, is it likely?


I think the simpler (and thus more plausible) explanation is the story as it's known; Californian was close enough for both ships to see each other, and for reasons known only to a man long dead, opted not to do anything.
There is also they mystery of the passing ship. The first couple of life boats were ordered to row towards a ship seen off the stern of the Titianc

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Old 10th April 2012, 07:45 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Call me skeptical. Cable TV specials aren't exactly known for presenting all the sides of an issue.

Would you say the same for the Smithsonian?

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scienc...l?device=bbery
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Old 10th April 2012, 09:30 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Skwinty View Post
Would you say the same for the Smithsonian?

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scienc...l?device=bbery
Seriously? That link is little more than a press release for the TV show. A scientific analysis it ain't.

Did you also notice how the author of the article, Tim Maltin, is himself the source material?

(And did you also notice how the title is a question, and subheader includes the words "may have?" Looks like you're more certain of Maltin's findings than Maltin is.)

I did find it cute the way Maltin refers to himself in the third person. He's the author of the article, but refers to himself like this:

Quote:
An unusual optical phenomenon explains why the Titanic struck an iceberg and received no assistance from a nearby ship, according to new research by British historian Tim Maltin. Atmospheric conditions in the area that night were ripe for super refraction, Maltin found.
Historian, eh? Not a physicist, or a meteorologist, but a historian? Well, color me convinced. I can't think of anyone more qualified to accurately reproduce the exact atmospheric and ocean conditions of a remote spot of the North Atlantic 100 years ago. That's more than enough evidence to overturn a significant chunk of the historical record.
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Old 10th April 2012, 10:41 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
They checked that and the piece of evidence needed (Prop numbers) was confirmed to be correct
In February 1912 Olympic lost a prop blade. She returned to Belfast where Harland and Wolfe installed one of the propellers made for the Titanic. So Olympic would have had one propeller with Titanic's build number.
The conspiracy nuts haven't seemed to notice this.
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Old 10th April 2012, 11:36 PM   #47
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Five Titanic myths spread by films

Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Seriously? That link is little more than a press release for the TV show. A scientific analysis it ain't.

Did you also notice how the author of the article, Tim Maltin, is himself the source material?

(And did you also notice how the title is a question, and subheader includes the words "may have?" Looks like you're more certain of Maltin's findings than Maltin is.)

I did find it cute the way Maltin refers to himself in the third person. He's the author of the article, but refers to himself like this:

Historian, eh? Not a physicist, or a meteorologist, but a historian? Well, color me convinced. I can't think of anyone more qualified to accurately reproduce the exact atmospheric and ocean conditions of a remote spot of the North Atlantic 100 years ago. That's more than enough evidence to overturn a significant chunk of the historical record.



The article I read on my mobile (6 pages) has Charles Floyd as the writer.

His name appears on each page. Why shouldn't a historian research maritime logs from the time of the incident.

If I am not mistaken, the Bremen log reflects many reports of refraction in the area at the same location and time, as do many of the passengers.

I think this was the ship that sailed through the flotsam and dead bodies.

Did you see the NatGeo documentary?

What evidence do you present that concludes that the watch on Titanic was asleep on duty and that Lord said **** them we are not stopping tp look for survivors?

It is easy and sensationalism to blame the dead guy and not consider reasonable doubt offered by the cold water mirage and refraction theory.
Apparently the phenomona is quite common where cold and warm water meet.

http://finland.fi/public/default.asp...&culture=en-US
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Old 11th April 2012, 01:53 AM   #48
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Old 11th April 2012, 02:00 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Skwinty View Post
I have just watched Titanic: Case Closed on natgeo.

It presents scientific evidence that puts paid to the myth of the watch sleeping, Captain Lord ignoring the Titanic sinking and ignoring aldis morse signals from Titanic.

This is explained by cold water mirages and refraction.

Worth watching.
Did it cover the idea that it was the Titanic's attempt to avoid striking the iceberg that doomed her? That a head-on (or at least bow on) hit would have caused less damage and allowed the ship to survive, in a similar way to the Niagra?
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Old 11th April 2012, 02:06 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Did it cover the idea that it was the Titanic's attempt to avoid striking the iceberg that doomed her? That a head-on (or at least bow on) hit would have caused less damage and allowed the ship to survive, in a similar way to the Niagra?

Yes it did and made exactly the same observation you make.

The idea of faulty rivets was also disputed.
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Old 11th April 2012, 03:00 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Skwinty View Post
Yes it did and made exactly the same observation you make.

The idea of faulty rivets was also disputed.
Thanks, I must have a look for it.
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Old 11th April 2012, 03:07 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
  • Both ships were known to be in the same area
  • Californian reported seeing the other ship firing rockets, which the Titanic is known to have done

I think the simpler (and thus more plausible) explanation is the story as it's known; Californian was close enough for both ships to see each other, and for reasons known only to a man long dead, opted not to do anything.
Largely, I agree with you but on two points above wasn't it, (1)found that RMS Titanic was found 30 miles away from where she reported she was (which is why it took so long to locate the wreck?) and hence lord thought that he saw only a "small ship"? And (2) The firing of rockets was common place on cruise liners at the time and was NOT considered a distress sign.

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Old 11th April 2012, 04:28 AM   #53
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Here is a link to Natgeo's list of facts.

http://natgeotv.com.au/tv/titanic-10...se-closed.aspx

I am currently watching Titanic: The final word with James Cameron.

Another aspect of Titanic, all of it fascinating.

I would like to know what Len Goodman has to say.
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Old 11th April 2012, 05:13 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Skwinty View Post
The article I read on my mobile (6 pages) has Charles Floyd as the writer.
Floyd did the illustrations.



Quote:
His name appears on each page. Why shouldn't a historian research maritime logs from the time of the incident.
Who said he shouldn't?

Quote:
What evidence do you present that concludes that the watch on Titanic was asleep on duty and that Lord said **** them we are not stopping tp look for survivors?
Two things:

  • I didn't claim that the watch on (I assume you mean) California was asleep on duty. Lord was asleep, but after seventeen hours on duty you're allowed to do that. The wireless operator was also asleep, but off-duty. (Nobody woke him up, either.) Californian was a small vessel that didn't have 24/7 wireless staffing.
  • I didn't claim that Lord said "**** them we are not stopping for survivors." In fact, Californian did join the rescue effort, the next morning.
I'd thank you to not put words in my mouth. At no point have I attributed any malice or laziness on the part of Californian or Stanley Lord.

Quote:
It is easy and sensationalism to blame the dead guy
It's not "sensationalism" to go with what has been the historical record for the past century. And mind you, Lord didn't die until the 1960s; it's not like he never had an opportunity to defend himself against these accusations.

Quote:
and not consider reasonable doubt offered by the cold water mirage and refraction theory.
Again, you put words in my mouth. Let's review what I actually said, mkay?

Originally Posted by Cleon
I can accept that, under just the right conditions, a similar effect might be possible. But I gotta ask, is it likely?

I think the simpler (and thus more plausible) explanation is the story as it's known; Californian was close enough for both ships to see each other, and for reasons known only to a man long dead, opted not to do anything.
Your original claim was that the new claims "put paid" to the story as is traditionally known. Sorry, but no. It might be an intriguing possibility, but conclusive? Not by a long shot. There's still a lot to explain away.
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Old 11th April 2012, 05:20 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Largely, I agree with you but on two points above wasn't it, (1)found that RMS Titanic was found 30 miles away from where she reported she was (which is why it took so long to locate the wreck?) and hence lord thought that he saw only a "small ship"?
For various reasons, the exact positions of both ships aren't known.

Quote:
And (2) The firing of rockets was common place on cruise liners at the time and was NOT considered a distress sign.
Firing rockets wasn't commonplace, but it also wasn't a usual distress signal.

My point is that Californian saw flares, and Titanic as known to have fired them. I'm not making any claims about what Californian thought the rockets meant, only that they saw them.
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Old 11th April 2012, 05:27 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Your original claim was that the new claims "put paid" to the story as is traditionally known. Sorry, but no. It might be an intriguing possibility, but conclusive? Not by a long shot. There's still a lot to explain away.

BA in American and European history here. +1
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Old 11th April 2012, 05:28 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Skwinty View Post
Here is a link to Natgeo's list of facts.

http://natgeotv.com.au/tv/titanic-10...se-closed.aspx
Interesting.

Quote:
These conditions indicate that Titanic could have been in the midst of a cold water mirage.

...

However, the hot and cold air could have caused a mirage, distorting the sea, and raising up the horizon behind the iceberg, cloaking it.

...

What Capitan Stanley Lord saw that night could have been affected by refraction, distorting the ship so that it didn't look anything like Titanic at all.

...

Due to the conditions, the iceberg that damaged Titanic could have been effectively invisible for 20 minutes.
Putting together a list of "could have beens" is not the same thing as "putting paid."

Standard fare for cable TV specials, though; a bunch of "could haves" and "might haves," then using them to form a conclusion with minimal (if any) dissenting arguments.
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Old 11th April 2012, 05:54 AM   #58
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A not so prominent myth, maybe from a computer game instead of a movie, but I have heard it expressed by a couple of people; is that a young artist named Adolf Hitler was shipping some paintings to New York for his big break-through art show.
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Old 11th April 2012, 06:00 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by kedo1981 View Post
A not so prominent myth, maybe from a computer game instead of a movie, but I have heard it expressed by a couple of people; is that a young artist named Adolf Hitler was shipping some paintings to New York for his big break-through art show.
in 1912 Hitler was a penniless artist living in Vienna and working on his anti-semitism, he didn't have any money until 1913

Originally Posted by game plot from Titanic: Adventure Out of Time
The number of objects the player recovers before escaping the ship affects the final cut scene and how history plays out. If the player obtains all the objects, history is altered with World War I, the Russian Revolution, and World War II never occurring — without The Rubáiyát or the diamonds, the Black Hand is not financed and their plan to assassinate Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria (which would have sparked World War I) backfires. The painting Barbicon was going to trade in to Zeitel was actually painted by Adolf Hitler, and its fame after it is recovered from the sinking causes Hitler to become a famous artist, averting World War II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic...re_Out_of_Time

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Old 11th April 2012, 06:29 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
In February 1912 Olympic lost a prop blade. She returned to Belfast where Harland and Wolfe installed one of the propellers made for the Titanic. So Olympic would have had one propeller with Titanic's build number.
The conspiracy nuts haven't seemed to notice this.
When they dived the Titanic they found the numbers matched up with the swap. I am too lazy right now to look it up, but in the day there was a conspiracy book on the topic. It was a shame actually because the rest of the book was extremely well done, even reprinted large slabs of the US inquiry
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Old 11th April 2012, 06:34 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Floyd did the illustrations.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...572dd8eb4a.jpg

Who said he shouldn't?

Two things:

[list][*]I didn't claim that the watch on (I assume you mean) California was asleep on duty. Lord was asleep, but after seventeen hours on duty you're allowed to do that. The wireless operator was also asleep, but off-duty. (Nobody woke him up, either.) Californian was a small vessel that didn't have 24/7 wireless staffing.
It is important to be aware Marconi operators back then were sub-contracted by the Marconi company so for for Lord to wake him would have created an added expense for possibly no real good reason. Something all captains are conscious of.
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Old 11th April 2012, 06:46 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
It is important to be aware Marconi operators back then were sub-contracted by the Marconi company so for for Lord to wake him would have created an added expense for possibly no real good reason. Something all captains are conscious of.
Huh. I didn't actually know that. Makes sense, though.
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Old 11th April 2012, 08:35 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
In February 1912 Olympic lost a prop blade. She returned to Belfast where Harland and Wolfe installed one of the propellers made for the Titanic. So Olympic would have had one propeller with Titanic's build number.
The conspiracy nuts haven't seemed to notice this.

Did Titanic have four blades on her center propellar or three?
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Old 11th April 2012, 09:02 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
For various reasons, the exact positions of both ships aren't known.
Titanic was about 2 nautical miles from land when it hit the iceburg.
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Old 11th April 2012, 09:10 AM   #65
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Caught a few minutes of a PBS show on Titanic last night. Apparently as the ship was sinking White Star fired everyone on board. Some crew survived and Woolworth's let them work the counter to raise money.
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Old 11th April 2012, 09:31 AM   #66
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Old 11th April 2012, 12:04 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by azzthom View Post
Dammit... You are correct. The sister ship was Olympic. The third, and largest, of the three ships was Brittanic. She became a hospital ship in World War I, and sank after striking a mine.

Olympic had been badly damaged in a collision, and the myth began that Titanic was actually Olympic, and she had been sent off to sink in some sort of insurance scam. As another poster pointed out, the screw numbers were examined and showed the idea to be nonsense.

On a slightly related note, is this woman a jinx?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violet_Jessop
Did the owner admit to having said "Pull it."?
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Old 11th April 2012, 01:24 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Did the owner admit to having said "Pull it."?

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Old 11th April 2012, 04:49 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Brattus View Post
Who cares about the stupid ship and dead people.
The magic of the Titanic has always been the make believe love story done to a Celine Dion song.

The rest is just boring junk.
I'll bet they sunk themselves so they could give James Cameron a good backdrop for the beautiful story of Jack and Rose.

You people need to get your facts right!
No kidding. I love that movie. The sex I had after seeing it in the theater was amazing.
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Old 11th April 2012, 09:12 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by four elevener View Post
Did Titanic have four blades on her center propellar or three?
Four blades on the center prop, three on the outboards.
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:41 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
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Old 12th April 2012, 02:02 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Caught a few minutes of a PBS show on Titanic last night. Apparently as the ship was sinking White Star fired everyone on board.
Standard practice at the time, and for many years subsequently. It became such a bone of contention during the Second World War - with the shipping company stopping crew wages as soon as a torpedo slammed into the ship - that the government stepped in and created the national Merchant Navy Reserve Pool to co-ordinate and support the workforce.

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Old 12th April 2012, 03:15 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
Four blades on the center prop, three on the outboards.

That's what I've always thought, however, my roomate tells me there are no known photographs of her center prop. Is this true? I did a quick search and couldn't find anything. The often-circulated photograph of the men standing below a ship's (Titanic/Olympic ??) propellars are said to be of Titanic, however, the folks at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum (who own the original photograph) stated to me in a personal email that it's actually the Olympic in dry dock ten years after Titanic sank.
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Old 12th April 2012, 08:53 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Those can't be real, can they?
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Old 12th April 2012, 11:33 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Standard practice at the time, and for many years subsequently. It became such a bone of contention during the Second World War - with the shipping company stopping crew wages as soon as a torpedo slammed into the ship - that the government stepped in and created the national Merchant Navy Reserve Pool to co-ordinate and support the workforce.
That was a common practice even before the age of steam. You fell from the rigging, the time of you hit the deck was noted.....your wages stopped
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Old 12th April 2012, 11:34 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by four elevener View Post
That's what I've always thought, however, my roomate tells me there are no known photographs of her center prop. Is this true? I did a quick search and couldn't find anything. The often-circulated photograph of the men standing below a ship's (Titanic/Olympic ??) propellars are said to be of Titanic, however, the folks at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum (who own the original photograph) stated to me in a personal email that it's actually the Olympic in dry dock ten years after Titanic sank.
Thats the only photo I have seen of the props. Didn't really matter because we know from the earlier incident the props were interchangable
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Old 12th April 2012, 07:29 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by four elevener View Post
That's what I've always thought, however, my roomate tells me there are no known photographs of her center prop. Is this true? I did a quick search and couldn't find anything. The often-circulated photograph of the men standing below a ship's (Titanic/Olympic ??) propellars are said to be of Titanic, however, the folks at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum (who own the original photograph) stated to me in a personal email that it's actually the Olympic in dry dock ten years after Titanic sank.
I was surprised to find that there is a controversy about this. On some basic searching I couldn't find an unambiguous photo of Titanic with the center prop clearly visible. I did find contemporary press reports, and the Board of Transport inspection that refers to the center prop being four bladed. Both the reporters, and the inspectors at the launching could be expected to mention if the ship was not as described, but that doesn't prove it.
I should have said, "To the best of my knowledge...".
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Old 12th April 2012, 09:59 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Standard practice at the time, and for many years subsequently. It became such a bone of contention during the Second World War - with the shipping company stopping crew wages as soon as a torpedo slammed into the ship - that the government stepped in and created the national Merchant Navy Reserve Pool to co-ordinate and support the workforce.
In a recent documentary in the UK they interviewed the Grand Niece of one of the musicians in the band who hadn't paid for his band uniform before the ship sailed so they billed his family for the uniform, she produced the letter demanding the payment.
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Old 13th April 2012, 06:50 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Baldric View Post
In a recent documentary in the UK they interviewed the Grand Niece of one of the musicians in the band who hadn't paid for his band uniform before the ship sailed so they billed his family for the uniform, she produced the letter demanding the payment.

The band members were actually employed by a contractor, C. W. & F. N. Black, except they each received one shilling a month directly from White Star so that they could legally be treated as crewmembers. The contractor sent the demand for payment. See here.
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Old 16th April 2012, 11:56 AM   #80
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I never heard about this fire before ... true?

Quote:
COAL BUNKER FIRE
The story regarding a fire in one of Titanic's massive coal bunkers is indeed true. The fire is believed to have been burning when Titanic left Belfast, and it was not until two or three days later that it was finally extinguished, this being done by teams of firemen and trimmers digging out almost all of the coal to enable the seat of the fire to be doused. Some Titanic scholars believe that the intense heat of the fire could have led to some parts of the hull to be seriously weakened, and actually assisted in the break-up and sinking of the vessel. source
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