A Song of Ice and Fire: GRRM announces A Dance With Dragons publication date. - Page 16

dudalb · 11th April 2012, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin

Not to nitpick, but 'The Lord of The Rings' is an entire series of books. It was released as three volumes, at the insistence of the publisher, but IIRC it was written as six. Comparing the entire series to one book from the 'Song of Ice and Fire' series isn't very indicative of anything other than the willingness of fantasy fiction fans to read long books.

It was written as a single novel.. The "Six Books" was just because Tolkien wanted "Pause points" in such a long novel. That is not unusual. Tolstoy divided War And Peace into About 10 "Books",and Dickens divided A Tale Of Two Cities into Three.
Tolkien wanted LOTR published in a single volume but the publishers said that would be too expensive and risky, and that is when the decision was made for strictly finiancial reasons to bring it out in 3.
All the above is pretty well documented, Tolkien NEVER intended it to be published as Six different books.

Morrigan · 11th April 2012, 04:27 PM

Dunstan makes a good point. Another thing in favour of that is Melisandre's own POV, where she states that the purpose of her visions is often to be served as warning try to prevent them from happening.

JamesDillon · 11th April 2012, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

Originally Posted by IDB87

I have no confidence that he can pull off an ending that will do justice to the first three books.

His last two books trended negatively, as reflected in Amazon reviews. He was obviously frustrated writing this last book, as he expressed as much in the acknowledgement:

His main source of frustration with ADWD, as I understood it, was how to get out of the corner he'd written himself into with the Dany situation. I'd agree with what seems to be the consensus that his "solution" to that problem was pretty clumsy, and certainly not worth waiting 5 years for, but on the other hand he's over that hump now and can hopefully get back on track. The next book will bring all the plot threads back together and he's promised no new POV characters, so I'm hoping we'll see a return to the quality of books 1-3; at least I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for a little longer.

gumboot · 12th April 2012, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by marksman

Assuming the general political construct stays the same, her's my prediction for the King and his Court:

Morrigan · 12th April 2012, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by gumboot

Dunstan · 12th April 2012, 01:26 PM

The question of "who ends up on the Iron Throne" may not be a terribly meaningful one in the end. Given the recurring theme of power, and its various forms and uses, I really doubt we're going to see an ending in which Character X is crowned and unites the people of Westeros and peace and prosperity are restored.

Who knows whether the "Seven Kingdoms" will really remain "one" kingdom. In particular, the North has risen in rebellion twice in the last twenty years or so; will the Northern lords really be eager to bend the knee again? (Yes, I know: maybe, if their bending it to a Northerner in King's Landing.) At a minimum, whichever poor sap ends up on that chair may have at least as big a mess as Robert did, with simmering resentments and factions.

Oh, and as to

, given that Martin has drawn so much inspiration from the War of the Roses, it would be surprising if there weren't

gumboot · 12th April 2012, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Morrigan

gumboot · 12th April 2012, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Dunstan

The question of "who ends up on the Iron Throne" may not be a terribly meaningful one in the end. Given the recurring theme of power, and its various forms and uses, I really doubt we're going to see an ending in which Character X is crowned and unites the people of Westeros and peace and prosperity are restored.

Who knows whether the "Seven Kingdoms" will really remain "one" kingdom. In particular, the North has risen in rebellion twice in the last twenty years or so; will the Northern lords really be eager to bend the knee again? (Yes, I know: maybe, if their bending it to a Northerner in King's Landing.) At a minimum, whichever poor sap ends up on that chair may have at least as big a mess as Robert did, with simmering resentments and factions.

I'd personally be very disappointed if Westeros remained a united kingdom, as I don't think it's remotely plausible, and would require some pretty substantial suspensions of disbelief.

marksman · 12th April 2012, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by gumboot

marksman · 12th April 2012, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by gumboot

I'd personally be very disappointed if Westeros remained a united kingdom, as I don't think it's remotely plausible, and would require some pretty substantial suspensions of disbelief.

I agree it is unlikely, but I don't find it implausible.

Morrigan · 12th April 2012, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by gumboot

There is Targaryen precedent with multiple wives: Aegon the Conqueror had two wives (they were also his two sisters, lol).

Regarding Griff,

Moss · 12th April 2012, 02:38 PM

Poor Tommen and Myrcella. Those are nice kids.

JamesDillon · 12th April 2012, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by marksman

Morrigan · 12th April 2012, 08:00 PM

I don't think the Night's Watch oath ever took the fall of the Wall into account, James.

Because it has yet to happen in Westeros history. I imagine that if (when?) the Wall does fall, the oath will be meaningless, since there's nothing to guard!

JamesDillon · 12th April 2012, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by Morrigan

I don't think the Night's Watch oath ever took the fall of the Wall into account, James.

Because it has yet to happen in Westeros history. I imagine that if (when?) the Wall does fall, the oath will be meaningless, since there's nothing to guard!

I'm sure it didn't, but my point is the fall of the Wall isn't necessary for Jon to be released from his oath. Not that that wouldn't be a sufficient condition also, but there's an independently sufficient condition that's already (apparently) occurred.

Morrigan · 12th April 2012, 08:28 PM

Ahhh, sorry, I misread. I thought you were disagreeing with marksman and saying that only the member's death could release him from his oath. My bad.

marksman · 13th April 2012, 05:35 AM

Just a note, for my theory to come true here is the minimum number of people who need to die (who haven't died already)

dudalb · 13th April 2012, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Morrigan

I don't think the Night's Watch oath ever took the fall of the Wall into account, James.

Because it has yet to happen in Westeros history. I imagine that if (when?) the Wall does fall, the oath will be meaningless, since there's nothing to guard!

It depends. The Wall might be gone, but you can argue that the basic intent of the oath..to guard the people of Westeros against the threats from the far North...not only remains, but with the wall down is more vital then ever.

Myriad · 14th April 2012, 02:24 PM

Predictions? Oh goody! Judging from many of GRRM's early short SF stories, here's how it will end:

SpitfireIX · 14th April 2012, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Myriad

Predictions? Oh goody! Judging from many of GRRM's early short SF stories, here's how it will end:

Moss · 14th April 2012, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Myriad

Predictions? Oh goody! Judging from many of GRRM's early short SF stories, here's how it will end:

That doesn't sound too bad.

marksman · 15th April 2012, 06:18 AM

Yeah, I could almost accept that one.

Morrigan · 1st October 2012, 02:44 PM

http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/2012/...nquest-in.html

Cool stuff about the Targaryen conquest. I love this bit, pure GRRM:

Quote:

He [King Argilac Durrendon of Storm's End (known as Argilac the Arrogant)] offered Aegon an alliance against the ironborn, offering to seal it with the hand of his daughter, Argella, in marriage. Aegon refused, instead suggesting that Argella could marry his bastard half-brother (and closest friend), Orys Baratheon. Argilac took that as an insult and cut off the hands of Aegon's envoy, sending them back with a message that these were the only hands a bastard could expect from the Storm King.

\m/

Border Reiver · 2nd October 2012, 07:02 AM

Any clue as to when the 6th book is due out?

ZirconBlue · 2nd October 2012, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Border Reiver

Any clue as to when the 6th book is due out?

2020?

Seriously, I don't think GRRM will even speculate on a date until the book is done.

I'm hoping that since he sorted out the issues that were causing him difficulty in the last book that the next one will not take so long, but I'm an incurable optimist.

IDB87 · 2nd October 2012, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by ZirconBlue

2020?

Wow, that's generous!

ZirconBlue · 2nd October 2012, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by IDB87

Wow, that's generous!

What can I say?

Originally Posted by ZirconBlue

I'm an incurable optimist.

Robrob · 2nd October 2012, 03:29 PM

He's only 64 but in bad health. I'm crossing my fingers he's kept good notes, time-lines, talked the ending through with spouse, etc... Otherwise it's going to be an unfinished symphony.

IDB87 · 3rd October 2012, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by Robrob

He's only 64 but in bad health. I'm crossing my fingers he's kept good notes, time-lines, talked the ending through with spouse, etc... Otherwise it's going to be an unfinished symphony.

I really hope he hasn't told a single person about who Jon's parent's actually are (and that his telling the producers of the show was just a bluff), and that he has no notes that would indicate his lineage.

Oh god, that would be the best thing everrrrrrrrr to happen and I have no idea why.

ZirconBlue · 3rd October 2012, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by Robrob

He's only 64 but in bad health. (

Evidence?

Morrigan · 3rd October 2012, 01:07 PM

Can we have a single ASoIaF conversation that doesn't revolve around GRRM's age, health or writing slowness? -_-

Doubt · 3rd October 2012, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by Morrigan

Can we have a single ASoIaF conversation that doesn't revolve around GRRM's age, health or writing slowness? -_-

No we cannot.

IDB87 · 3rd October 2012, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Morrigan

Can we have a single ASoIaF conversation that doesn't revolve around GRRM's age, health or writing slowness? -_-

Blame Robert Jordan.

Morrigan · 4th October 2012, 11:14 AM

Meh, that #### is getting old is all.

So no one has any opinion on the cool Targaryen conquest history I posted, I take it.

IDB87 · 4th October 2012, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Morrigan

Meh, that #### is getting old is all.

Martin certainly is getting old, you're right.

Quote:

So no one has any opinion on the cool Targaryen conquest history I posted, I take it.

All it shows is that he's more interested in establishing the history of his world than finishing his novel

It is neat, though, and he's good at fleshing his world out.

Morrigan · 4th October 2012, 12:38 PM

Actually, the World of Ice and Fire was a project spearheaded by Elios and Linda of Westeros.org, not GRRM himself, but it's been taking longer than expected.

IDB87 · 4th October 2012, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Morrigan

Actually, the World of Ice and Fire was a project spearheaded by Elios and Linda of Westeros.org, not GRRM himself, but it's been taking longer than expected.

Your "Pure GRRM" caused me to assume he had written that bit.

Silly me.

Morrigan · 4th October 2012, 02:46 PM

I didn't say he didn't write it, I objected to your insinuation that he's made this project his priority over TWoW.

Robrob · 4th October 2012, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by ZirconBlue

Evidence?

Just my opinion based on observation. I would be glad to learn I am wrong about his health and life expectancy.

dogjones · 31st October 2012, 06:46 AM

He doesn't look quite as bloated as the series though.

11th April 2012, 04:27 PM	#602
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879	Dunstan makes a good point. Another thing in favour of that is Melisandre's own POV, where she states that the purpose of her visions is often to be served as warning try to prevent them from happening.
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879

11th April 2012, 04:43 PM	#603
JamesDillon Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Berkeley, CA Posts: 2,631	Originally Posted by SpitfireIX As prophesied by Maggy the Frog, Myrcella and Tommen will both be dead by the end of the books, as will Cersei, by either Tyrion's or Jaime's hand. Myrcella will be a queen at some point before she dies, though. She already was, for like five minutes, and recognized as such by a handful of people-- which is exactly how you'd expect a GRRM prophecy to screw her over. Originally Posted by IDB87 I have no confidence that he can pull off an ending that will do justice to the first three books. His last two books trended negatively, as reflected in Amazon reviews. He was obviously frustrated writing this last book, as he expressed as much in the acknowledgement: His main source of frustration with ADWD, as I understood it, was how to get out of the corner he'd written himself into with the Dany situation. I'd agree with what seems to be the consensus that his "solution" to that problem was pretty clumsy, and certainly not worth waiting 5 years for, but on the other hand he's over that hump now and can hopefully get back on track. The next book will bring all the plot threads back together and he's promised no new POV characters, so I'm hoping we'll see a return to the quality of books 1-3; at least I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for a little longer.
	__________________ "To read the bible without horror, we must undo every thing that is tender, sympathising, and benevolent in the heart of man." --Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason Last edited by JamesDillon; 11th April 2012 at 04:50 PM.

12th April 2012, 12:39 PM	#604
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,127	Originally Posted by marksman Assuming the general political construct stays the same, her's my prediction for the King and his Court: This is the one I'm probably most wrong about, but it's fun to speculate. Crownlands: Jon "Snow" The North: Rickon Stark, with Davos Seaworth as his Hand The Iron Islands: Asha Greyjoy, installed in a kangaroo moot by Stannis when the other Greyjoys are killed in the coming Winter. (I really hope Theon dies already.) The Riverlands: Old Walder dies, a Walder Civil War ensues. Edmure Tully is released from Lannister dungeons and takes over. Vale of Arryn: Harrold Hardyng (and his wife Alayne, aka Sansa Stark) Westerlands: Tyrion Lannister, last of the Lannisters Reach: Samwell Tarly(!). The Tyrells are slain, Sam's father makes his play, then dies, and Jon has Sam reclaim his throne. Stormlands: Daenaerys Targaryen. The Barratheons are dead, and the seat devolves to her when Jon turns it down to lead the Crownlands. When Jon and Daenarys pass, the Stormlands will be made part of the Crownlands. Dorne: Doran Martell survives the war, with Trystane as heir. He chooses to marry Myrcella Hill (formerly Myrcella Barratheon), even though she is stripped of her Barratheon name and revealed to be the product of Jamie and Cersei's incest. I don't see how Jon could possibly be granted the throne ahead of Daenaerys considering A) He's a bastard B) He's sworn to the Night's Watch C) She's older D) She has dragons
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

12th April 2012, 12:50 PM	#605
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879	Originally Posted by gumboot I don't see how Jon could possibly be granted the throne ahead of Daenaerys considering A) He's a bastard B) He's sworn to the Night's Watch C) She's older D) She has dragons A) If R+L=J is true, and R married L in secret, then he's not a bastard. B) True. Well, he was, until he was Caesar'ed... C) No, she's not. Regardless of who the mother is, Rhaella gave birth to Daenerys on Dragonstone after Ned brought Jon home to Winterfell. Not that it matters in the line of succession, though. If Jon is Rhaegar's trueborn son, he has the better claim than Daenerys, according to the law. Of course, even if he is as such, if Griff/Aegon is ALSO Rhaegar's son, then Aegon is the true heir... D) True. We all thought Jon Stark/Targaryen would be the Song of Ice and Fire, and possibly inherit the throne, but with the assassination, I now very much doubt it. Even if Melisandre revives him or he turns into a Coldhands-type of wight, well, I just can't imagine an undead guy on the Iron Throne at the end. Jon's role will either be more significant, or he's really the true heir (assuming Griff-Aegon is a fake) and it will be the ultimate irony that he can't inherit or do anything beyond turning into a zombie. Haha. Aegon bothers me though. I sincerely hope he's a fake, these hidden Targs have got to stop... and it would severely screw up Daenerys's claim. Sure, she has dragons, but all along she's been motivated by the notion of reclaiming her birthright, and she's a fairly righteous girl. If Aegon pops in to make that irrelevant, she'd be an hypocrite to not step aside. Assuming, of course, that Aegon can prove his identity. Not sure how he'd do that, silver hair and purple hair are uncommon but not necessarily proof of Targaryen heritage (let alone being a trueborn son of Rhaegar).
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879

12th April 2012, 01:26 PM	#606
Dunstan Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sunnyvale Trailer Park Posts: 4,292	The question of "who ends up on the Iron Throne" may not be a terribly meaningful one in the end. Given the recurring theme of power, and its various forms and uses, I really doubt we're going to see an ending in which Character X is crowned and unites the people of Westeros and peace and prosperity are restored. Who knows whether the "Seven Kingdoms" will really remain "one" kingdom. In particular, the North has risen in rebellion twice in the last twenty years or so; will the Northern lords really be eager to bend the knee again? (Yes, I know: maybe, if their bending it to a Northerner in King's Landing.) At a minimum, whichever poor sap ends up on that chair may have at least as big a mess as Robert did, with simmering resentments and factions. Oh, and as to the legitimacy of Griff , given that Martin has drawn so much inspiration from the War of the Roses, it would be surprising if there weren't a fake claimant or two.

11th April 2012, 02:46 PM	#601
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,848	Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin Not to nitpick, but 'The Lord of The Rings' is an entire series of books. It was released as three volumes, at the insistence of the publisher, but IIRC it was written as six. Comparing the entire series to one book from the 'Song of Ice and Fire' series isn't very indicative of anything other than the willingness of fantasy fiction fans to read long books. It was written as a single novel.. The "Six Books" was just because Tolkien wanted "Pause points" in such a long novel. That is not unusual. Tolstoy divided War And Peace into About 10 "Books",and Dickens divided A Tale Of Two Cities into Three. Tolkien wanted LOTR published in a single volume but the publishers said that would be too expensive and risky, and that is when the decision was made for strictly finiancial reasons to bring it out in 3. All the above is pretty well documented, Tolkien NEVER intended it to be published as Six different books.

12th April 2012, 01:34 PM	#607
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,127	Originally Posted by Morrigan A) If R+L=J is true, and R married L in secret, then he's not a bastard. B) True. Well, he was, until he was Caesar'ed... C) No, she's not. Regardless of who the mother is, Rhaella gave birth to Daenerys on Dragonstone after Ned brought Jon home to Winterfell. Not that it matters in the line of succession, though. If Jon is Rhaegar's trueborn son, he has the better claim than Daenerys, according to the law. Of course, even if he is as such, if Griff/Aegon is ALSO Rhaegar's son, then Aegon is the true heir... D) True. We all thought Jon Stark/Targaryen would be the Song of Ice and Fire, and possibly inherit the throne, but with the assassination, I now very much doubt it. Even if Melisandre revives him or he turns into a Coldhands-type of wight, well, I just can't imagine an undead guy on the Iron Throne at the end. Jon's role will either be more significant, or he's really the true heir (assuming Griff-Aegon is a fake) and it will be the ultimate irony that he can't inherit or do anything beyond turning into a zombie. Haha. Aegon bothers me though. I sincerely hope he's a fake, these hidden Targs have got to stop... and it would severely screw up Daenerys's claim. Sure, she has dragons, but all along she's been motivated by the notion of reclaiming her birthright, and she's a fairly righteous girl. If Aegon pops in to make that irrelevant, she'd be an hypocrite to not step aside. Assuming, of course, that Aegon can prove his identity. Not sure how he'd do that, silver hair and purple hair are uncommon but not necessarily proof of Targaryen heritage (let alone being a trueborn son of Rhaegar). I actually realised after I posted the mistake with the Daenerys/Jon age/lineage thing, but Rhaegar was married to Elia of Dorne already and there's no indication that the land allows multiple wives, so he couldn't have legally wed Lyanna could he? As to the hidden Targ... that probably pissed me off more than anything else in the entire latest book because it honestly felt like Martin threw it in there to deal with the fact he'd written Daenerys into a corner. Maybe he really did cleverly foreshadow it from the beginning (I'd have to re-read) but I don't think so... Having said that, I don't think he's a pretender; Varys outright states that it's Aegon and to my mind it would be a total reversal of Varys' character to support a fake Targ. (There's also no logical reason for Varys to have lied to Kevan Lannister, given he's dying).
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

12th April 2012, 01:36 PM	#608
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,127	Originally Posted by Dunstan The question of "who ends up on the Iron Throne" may not be a terribly meaningful one in the end. Given the recurring theme of power, and its various forms and uses, I really doubt we're going to see an ending in which Character X is crowned and unites the people of Westeros and peace and prosperity are restored. Who knows whether the "Seven Kingdoms" will really remain "one" kingdom. In particular, the North has risen in rebellion twice in the last twenty years or so; will the Northern lords really be eager to bend the knee again? (Yes, I know: maybe, if their bending it to a Northerner in King's Landing.) At a minimum, whichever poor sap ends up on that chair may have at least as big a mess as Robert did, with simmering resentments and factions. I'd personally be very disappointed if Westeros remained a united kingdom, as I don't think it's remotely plausible, and would require some pretty substantial suspensions of disbelief.
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

12th April 2012, 01:48 PM	#609
marksman Reality Checker Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 5,003	Originally Posted by gumboot I don't see how Jon could possibly be granted the throne ahead of Daenaerys considering A) He's a bastard B) He's sworn to the Night's Watch C) She's older D) She has dragons A) He is the Azor Ahai, which is good enough for the followers of R'hollor. The right of conquest (and enough Targaryen blood) will make it okay with everyone else. Robert Barratheon got crowned with less justification. B) I don't think the vow survives the fall of the Wall. Alternately, the Ahor Azai is reborn shorn of oaths. It's not hard to justify. C) See A. He beats her in battle (see D, below), seduces her, marries her and makes her Queen (and cures her infertility). Now their heir will be the indisputable rightful king. D) He's the Azor Ahai. And I suspect by the time the dragons show up, he'll be able to warg one. Alternately, he can get a hold of the Dragon Horn, warg a man to blow it and die, and be recognized as the dragons' true master.

12th April 2012, 02:04 PM	#610
marksman Reality Checker Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 5,003	Originally Posted by gumboot I'd personally be very disappointed if Westeros remained a united kingdom, as I don't think it's remotely plausible, and would require some pretty substantial suspensions of disbelief. I agree it is unlikely, but I don't find it implausible. Right now, you have four factions: Daenarys, Lannister, Aegon, and Stannis. You have seven kingdoms to conquer. If we posit a marriage of Daenarys and Jon, and if Stannis and Aegon die, things can fall neatly into place. Westerlands: Varys is eliminating the Lannisters, and Tyrion will be with Daenarys. Cersei, Tommen, and Myrcella will die (as has been prophesied). Jaime remains a Kingsguard. North: Rickon becomes Lord of the North, and pledged to his brother Jon Iron Islands: Victarion pledges them to Daenarys Dorne: ready to pledge itself to any Targaryen Vale: Sansa ends up married to the Lord of the Vale (Harrold Hardyng), and delivers the Vale to Jon. Stormlands: On Stannis and Aegon's deaths they devolve to Daenarys Reach: The Tyrells remain the lone hold-out. When Tommen dies, any claims they had on the Crown die with him and they are shrewd enough to see the wind blowing in Jon and Daenarys' favor. Heck, I can see them building an alliance with the Red Priests favoring Jon Snow, thus pitting the Reach, North, and Vale against the Westerlands, Stormlands, Dorne, and Iron Islands, which is resolved with Jon and Daenarys' wedding.

12th April 2012, 02:27 PM	#611
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879	Originally Posted by gumboot I actually realised after I posted the mistake with the Daenerys/Jon age/lineage thing, but Rhaegar was married to Elia of Dorne already and there's no indication that the land allows multiple wives, so he couldn't have legally wed Lyanna could he? There is Targaryen precedent with multiple wives: Aegon the Conqueror had two wives (they were also his two sisters, lol). Regarding Griff, I remember nothing in the text that really foreshadows Aegon's appearance beyond the baby-switch with Gilly's and Mance's sons, but I don't think GRRM came up with it out of the blue. Years ago, people theorized that Varys had switched Aegon with another baby and that Gregor had bashed the switched baby's head instead of Aegon's. Babies are hard to tell apart, and moreso if their heads are bashed... but there was no proof. Until someone asked GRRM in an interview if Rhaegar's children were really all dead. He replied that Ser Amory Lorch had really dragged Rhaenys out of her bed and killed her. But he said nothing about Aegon. People then speculated that it was confirmation Aegon was alive, but I always thought Martin was just trolling them... guess not. [source: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1106/ -- dated 2000!]
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879	Last edited by Morrigan; 12th April 2012 at 02:36 PM.

12th April 2012, 02:38 PM	#612
Moss Dramatocrat Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Heiligsblechle country Posts: 3,229	Poor Tommen and Myrcella. Those are nice kids.

12th April 2012, 05:30 PM	#613
JamesDillon Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Berkeley, CA Posts: 2,631	Originally Posted by marksman B) I don't think the vow survives the fall of the Wall. Alternately, the Ahor Azai is reborn shorn of oaths. It's not hard to justify. "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death." Which happened at the end of ADWD; once he's resurrected by Melisandre he's free from his oath, which is consistent with the general theme that every character who returns from death leaves their previous identity behind.
	__________________ "To read the bible without horror, we must undo every thing that is tender, sympathising, and benevolent in the heart of man." --Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

12th April 2012, 08:00 PM	#614
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879	I don't think the Night's Watch oath ever took the fall of the Wall into account, James. Because it has yet to happen in Westeros history. I imagine that if (when?) the Wall does fall, the oath will be meaningless, since there's nothing to guard!
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879

12th April 2012, 08:05 PM	#615
JamesDillon Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Berkeley, CA Posts: 2,631	Originally Posted by Morrigan I don't think the Night's Watch oath ever took the fall of the Wall into account, James. Because it has yet to happen in Westeros history. I imagine that if (when?) the Wall does fall, the oath will be meaningless, since there's nothing to guard! I'm sure it didn't, but my point is the fall of the Wall isn't necessary for Jon to be released from his oath. Not that that wouldn't be a sufficient condition also, but there's an independently sufficient condition that's already (apparently) occurred.
	__________________ "To read the bible without horror, we must undo every thing that is tender, sympathising, and benevolent in the heart of man." --Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason Last edited by JamesDillon; 12th April 2012 at 08:07 PM.

12th April 2012, 08:28 PM	#616
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879	Ahhh, sorry, I misread. I thought you were disagreeing with marksman and saying that only the member's death could release him from his oath. My bad.
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879

13th April 2012, 05:35 AM	#617
marksman Reality Checker Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 5,003	Just a note, for my theory to come true here is the minimum number of people who need to die (who haven't died already) Stannis Barratheon Shireen Barratheon (who has greyscale) Aegon Targaryen Cersei Barratheon nee Lannister (fated to die) Tommen Barratheon (fated to die) Myrcella Barratheon (fated to die) Petyr Baelish Robert Arryn (sickly child) Roose Bolton Ramsay Snow Euron Greyjoy Walder Frey

13th April 2012, 03:52 PM	#618
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,848	Originally Posted by Morrigan I don't think the Night's Watch oath ever took the fall of the Wall into account, James. Because it has yet to happen in Westeros history. I imagine that if (when?) the Wall does fall, the oath will be meaningless, since there's nothing to guard! It depends. The Wall might be gone, but you can argue that the basic intent of the oath..to guard the people of Westeros against the threats from the far North...not only remains, but with the wall down is more vital then ever.

14th April 2012, 02:24 PM	#619
Myriad Hyperthetical Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 8,206	Predictions? Oh goody! Judging from many of GRRM's early short SF stories, here's how it will end: Everybody dies. The last surviving Stark, Arya, changes the family motto to "Told Ya So!" just before succumbing. A week later, the last survivors of all, Tyrion and Tysha, barred in the throne room of King's Landing with dwindling food and water while the ~~zombie~~ ice wight horde pounds on the doors, commit mutual suicide by having sex on the Iron Throne.
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14th April 2012, 02:38 PM	#620
SpitfireIX Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA Posts: 2,829	Originally Posted by Myriad Predictions? Oh goody! Judging from many of GRRM's early short SF stories, here's how it will end: Everybody dies. The last surviving Stark, Arya, changes the family motto to "Told Ya So!" just before succumbing. A week later, the last survivors of all, Tyrion and Tysha, barred in the throne room of King's Landing with dwindling food and water while the ~~zombie~~ ice wight horde pounds on the doors, commit mutual suicide by having sex on the Iron Throne.
	__________________ Handy responses to conspiracy theorists' claims: 1) "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." --Charles Babbage 2) "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." --Wolfgang Pauli 3) "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya

14th April 2012, 02:49 PM	#621
Moss Dramatocrat Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Heiligsblechle country Posts: 3,229	Originally Posted by Myriad Predictions? Oh goody! Judging from many of GRRM's early short SF stories, here's how it will end: Everybody dies. The last surviving Stark, Arya, changes the family motto to "Told Ya So!" just before succumbing. A week later, the last survivors of all, Tyrion and Tysha, barred in the throne room of King's Landing with dwindling food and water while the ~~zombie~~ ice wight horde pounds on the doors, commit mutual suicide by having sex on the Iron Throne. That doesn't sound too bad.

15th April 2012, 06:18 AM	#622
marksman Reality Checker Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 5,003	Yeah, I could almost accept that one.

1st October 2012, 02:44 PM	#623
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879	http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/2012/...nquest-in.html Cool stuff about the Targaryen conquest. I love this bit, pure GRRM: Quote: He [King Argilac Durrendon of Storm's End (known as Argilac the Arrogant)] offered Aegon an alliance against the ironborn, offering to seal it with the hand of his daughter, Argella, in marriage. Aegon refused, instead suggesting that Argella could marry his bastard half-brother (and closest friend), Orys Baratheon. Argilac took that as an insult and cut off the hands of Aegon's envoy, sending them back with a message that these were the only hands a bastard could expect from the Storm King. \m/
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879

2nd October 2012, 07:02 AM	#624
Border Reiver Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 2,188	Any clue as to when the 6th book is due out?
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2nd October 2012, 10:18 AM	#625
ZirconBlue Sole Survivor of L-Town Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Wilson, North Carolina, USA, Earth Posts: 11,330	Originally Posted by Border Reiver Any clue as to when the 6th book is due out? 2020? Seriously, I don't think GRRM will even speculate on a date until the book is done. I'm hoping that since he sorted out the issues that were causing him difficulty in the last book that the next one will not take so long, but I'm an incurable optimist.
	__________________ Religion and sex are powerplays. Manipulate the people for the money they pay. Selling skin, selling God The numbers look the same on their credit cards.

2nd October 2012, 11:45 AM	#626
IDB87 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: In the Grass Posts: 3,416	Originally Posted by ZirconBlue 2020? Wow, that's generous!
	__________________ It's guaranteed I'm overreacting.

2nd October 2012, 01:39 PM	#627
ZirconBlue Sole Survivor of L-Town Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Wilson, North Carolina, USA, Earth Posts: 11,330	Originally Posted by IDB87 Wow, that's generous! What can I say? Originally Posted by ZirconBlue I'm an incurable optimist.
	__________________ Religion and sex are powerplays. Manipulate the people for the money they pay. Selling skin, selling God The numbers look the same on their credit cards.

2nd October 2012, 03:29 PM	#628
Robrob Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,660	He's only 64 but in bad health. I'm crossing my fingers he's kept good notes, time-lines, talked the ending through with spouse, etc... Otherwise it's going to be an unfinished symphony.
Robrob Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,660

3rd October 2012, 06:53 AM	#629
IDB87 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: In the Grass Posts: 3,416	Originally Posted by Robrob He's only 64 but in bad health. I'm crossing my fingers he's kept good notes, time-lines, talked the ending through with spouse, etc... Otherwise it's going to be an unfinished symphony. I really hope he hasn't told a single person about who Jon's parent's actually are (and that his telling the producers of the show was just a bluff), and that he has no notes that would indicate his lineage. Oh god, that would be the best thing everrrrrrrrr to happen and I have no idea why.
	__________________ It's guaranteed I'm overreacting.

3rd October 2012, 08:30 AM	#630
ZirconBlue Sole Survivor of L-Town Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Wilson, North Carolina, USA, Earth Posts: 11,330	Originally Posted by Robrob He's only 64 but in bad health. ( Evidence?
	__________________ Religion and sex are powerplays. Manipulate the people for the money they pay. Selling skin, selling God The numbers look the same on their credit cards.

3rd October 2012, 01:07 PM	#631
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879	Can we have a single ASoIaF conversation that doesn't revolve around GRRM's age, health or writing slowness? -_-
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879

3rd October 2012, 01:11 PM	#632
Doubt Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 5,444	Originally Posted by Morrigan Can we have a single ASoIaF conversation that doesn't revolve around GRRM's age, health or writing slowness? -_- No we cannot.
Doubt Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 5,444	__________________ Doubt world tour locations: Mostly home for now. No international travel scheduled other than the Galapagos trip in March. Disclaimer: Not a high energy scientist!

3rd October 2012, 01:12 PM	#633
IDB87 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: In the Grass Posts: 3,416	Originally Posted by Morrigan Can we have a single ASoIaF conversation that doesn't revolve around GRRM's age, health or writing slowness? -_- Blame Robert Jordan.
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4th October 2012, 11:14 AM	#634
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879	Meh, that #### is getting old is all. So no one has any opinion on the cool Targaryen conquest history I posted, I take it.
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879

4th October 2012, 12:08 PM	#635
IDB87 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: In the Grass Posts: 3,416	Originally Posted by Morrigan Meh, that #### is getting old is all. Martin certainly is getting old, you're right. Quote: So no one has any opinion on the cool Targaryen conquest history I posted, I take it. All it shows is that he's more interested in establishing the history of his world than finishing his novel It is neat, though, and he's good at fleshing his world out.
	__________________ It's guaranteed I'm overreacting.