Project to mine asteroids for water (and precious metals) has begun.

OnlyTellsTruths · 23rd April 2012, 10:05 PM

...and by "begun" I mean that it is just off the drawing board.

Billionaire-backed asteroid mining venture starts with space telescopes

Quote:

The venture, which is being formally unveiled Tuesday at Seattle's Museum of Flight, is sufficiently down to Earth to attract funding from such A-list investors

<snip>

"A water-rich asteroid would greatly enhance the large-scale exploration of the solar system," Anderson said in a news release. "Water has many uses in space. For instance, it would not only be used for hydration, but also would be broken down into oxygen and hydrogen, for breathable air and rocket propellant."

But why go to all the trouble, when there's so much water on Earth? "It costs on the order of $20,000 per kilogram to get a liter of water into orbit," Diamandis explained. "If you're able to buy it on orbit for one-hundredth of the cost, that would be transformative."

Asteroids also could yield precious metals such as platinum, gold and rare-earth materials — treasures that are worth bringing back to Earth. Diamandis said a single asteroid in the range of 200 to 500 meters in diameter could contain more platinum-group metals than has ever been mined in the whole of human history.

Lowpro · 23rd April 2012, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths

...and by "begun" I mean that it is just off the drawing board.

Billionaire-backed asteroid mining venture starts with space telescopes

Another one for the OTT "it's science baby" stockpile methinks?

Awesome stuff though.

BravesFan · 23rd April 2012, 10:10 PM

I'm not sure I will live to see this come to fruition (I'm almost 39) but boy does it conjure up childlike images of awesome spaceships and adventure in the heavens!!!

That's what I always loved about space, the infinite opportunities for exploration!

OnlyTellsTruths · 23rd April 2012, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Lowpro

Another one for the OTT "it's science baby" stockpile methinks?

Awesome stuff though.

I keep getting tricked by the Google News Science section! They look cool there, but when I post them here, not so much.

Lowpro · 23rd April 2012, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths

I keep getting tricked by the Google News Science section! They look cool there, but when I post them here, not so much.

Hey man I totally approve! Keep bringin' the good stuff so we don't have to search for it :P I personally have already tried:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=231702

But oh, people could care less about genes.

NewtonTrino · 23rd April 2012, 11:54 PM

Personally I think the next wave of wealth creation is going to come from things like this.

Then again a few dudes in a room got facebook to give them a billion dollars so...

kleinjahr · 24th April 2012, 12:51 PM

Before the Belters came the NEOphytes!
Good idea, hope they're successful.

OnlyTellsTruths · 25th April 2012, 03:39 AM

It seemed like every news site on the web had a version of this article today:

http://news.google.com/news/more?pz=...lJlqzkUn-gpB-M

Not sure how long that link will work.

Here's another company doing a related project on the Moon:

http://www.newsroomamerica.com/story/238648.html

X · 25th April 2012, 06:49 AM

Are they hiring?

paiute · 25th April 2012, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths

...and by "begun" I mean that it is just off the drawing board.

Reminds me of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dia...ig_as_the_Ritz

Mining water in space seems very reasonable, but grabbing a huge rock made out of any precious metal seems like a good way to make that metal instantly nonprecious.

Beerina · 25th April 2012, 07:28 AM

Let's skip the crap and jump to the conclusion.

Politician and cynics: What a waste of money. What good is it used for?

Businessman: Sir, in 20 years, you'll be taxing it.

quarky · 25th April 2012, 08:16 AM

It would be swell if platinum became less precious. Its got lots of fine uses. Same with gold. Its a pity that its mostly stashed away in brick shaped lumps or jewelry.

Both would make fine roofing material.

Checkmite · 25th April 2012, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by X

Are they hiring?

Yes.

Monketey Ghost · 25th April 2012, 09:52 AM

Will be too expensive.

Myriad · 25th April 2012, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by quarky

It would be swell if platinum became less precious. Its got lots of fine uses. Same with gold. Its a pity that its mostly stashed away in brick shaped lumps or jewelry.

Both would make fine roofing material.

And from space, they could express deliver it directly to your roof.

Madalch · 25th April 2012, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by quarky

It would be swell if platinum became less precious. Its got lots of fine uses. Same with gold. Its a pity that its mostly stashed away in brick shaped lumps or jewelry.

Both would make fine roofing material.

Metals like rhodium, platinum, and iridium are far too useful in catalysis to become non-precious, even if enough can be brought in from space to increase the world's supply by a factor of one hundred.

RossFW · 25th April 2012, 11:06 AM

Still, we might need to teach these people what a Tautology is first:-

Quote:

"It costs on the order of $20,000 per kilogram to get a liter of water into orbit,"

I Ratant · 25th April 2012, 11:12 AM

And that old British Airways logo:
"Getting there at all is half the fun."

lopeyschools · 25th April 2012, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by paiute

Reminds me of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dia...ig_as_the_Ritz

Mining water in space seems very reasonable, but grabbing a huge rock made out of any precious metal seems like a good way to make that metal instantly nonprecious.

Nah. You just restrict supply to maximize profits. As far as I know there are no laws against space cartels.

Checkmite · 25th April 2012, 11:27 AM

I wouldn't count these folks out. Everyone is focusing on the financial heavies; but this company has managed to snag the Mars Science Laboratory's chief engineer and the Opportunity and Spirit rovers' FD as their lead project managers. These guys have proven histories of successfully building, launching, and landing things on other celestial objects.

ronin688 · 25th April 2012, 07:05 PM

I really think this is a huge moment in space exploration. I suppose it started with SpaceX actually getting into the commercial spaceflight business but this is another huge step.

Someday there will be money to be made in space and when that happens space technology and exploration will expand dramtically. It may not (probably will not) turn a profit in the near future, but the strides made in developing the technology and capabilities will be invaluble.

Think of how cost effective it was to send out explorers from Europe to scout new trade routes and discover new lands. It used to take the resources of a nation-state to get a few ships across an ocean and back. Now we can cross an ocean in a couple hours and ship things from one side of the globe to the other cheaply and efficiently.

You hit a critical mass with this sort of thing, and the plan to mine asteroids is an important step. I'm really excited about the possibilities.

quarky · 25th April 2012, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by Madalch

Metals like rhodium, platinum, and iridium are far too useful in catalysis to become non-precious, even if enough can be brought in from space to increase the world's supply by a factor of one hundred.

No doubt.
Any idea of what % of platinum mined goes to catalyst purposes, as opposed to jewelry or simply stashing it in coins and such?

OnlyTellsTruths · 25th April 2012, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by RossFW

Still, we might need to teach these people what a Tautology is first:-

Quote:

"It costs on the order of $20,000 per kilogram to get a liter of water into orbit,"

It depends on the temperature of the water.

Originally Posted by paiute

Reminds me of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dia...ig_as_the_Ritz

Mining water in space seems very reasonable, but grabbing a huge rock made out of any precious metal seems like a good way to make that metal instantly nonprecious.

Originally Posted by lopeyschools

Nah. You just restrict supply to maximize profits. As far as I know there are no laws against space cartels.

Some claim that that premise is already true; that diamonds are hoarded in London or somewhere. I'm not sure how much of a conspiracy theory that is or not. There is probably a thread on it here somewhere.

Andrew Wiggin · 25th April 2012, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths

It depends on the temperature of the water.

Yah. You have to put it in some sort of container too. I'd guesstimate that a liter of water delivered to orbit requires at least several grams of tankage per liter that also has to be delivered to orbit. If I was in the business of shipping water out of the gravity well, I'd make sure to do that calculation to great precision. A big tank stores a lot of water, but has to be heavy enough to stand up to its own weight on earth. Little bottles don't have to be nearly as strong, but you need lots of them. I bet the optimum answer looks a lot like an inflated condom in a mesh bag. Of course if it's already in orbit somewhere, and frozen solid the whole calculation is moot. Reminds me of Azimov's novella 'The Martian Way', which addressed the same sort of problem, and the novel thinking that was needed to solve it.

Madalch · 25th April 2012, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by quarky

No doubt.
Any idea of what % of platinum mined goes to catalyst purposes, as opposed to jewelry or simply stashing it in coins and such?

Couldn't give you a number, but I have heard other chemists complain about platinum being "wasted" in jewellry when it could be put to proper use for electrodes, catalysts, and crucibles.

For rhodium, wiki says, "The element's major use (about 81% of world rhodium production) is as one of the catalysts in the three-way catalytic converters of automobiles."

Madalch · 25th April 2012, 11:34 PM

Also from wiki: Of the 239 tonnes of platinum sold in 2006, 130 tonnes were used for vehicle emissions control devices, 49 tonnes for jewelry, 13.3 tonnes in electronics, and 11.2 tonnes in the chemical industry as a catalyst. The remaining 35.5 tonnes went to various other minor applications, such as electrodes, anticancer drugs, oxygen sensors, spark plugs and turbine engines.

Travis · 26th April 2012, 01:10 AM

Something I'd like answered: how do they get these masses of metal down to Earth?

To me, finding them, harvesting them and then transporting them to Earth is the easy part. Getting it all through our atmosphere and through our big gravity well until it is safely on the ground seems like the hard part.

BravesFan · 26th April 2012, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

Something I'd like answered: how do they get these masses of metal down to Earth?

To me, finding them, harvesting them and then transporting them to Earth is the easy part. Getting it all through our atmosphere and through our big gravity well until it is safely on the ground seems like the hard part.

i reckon they will break them down and encapsulate them and fly them through the atmosphere inside the ships. They might even have vehicles designed to do nothing else but run transport sorties day after day

Andrew Wiggin · 26th April 2012, 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

Something I'd like answered: how do they get these masses of metal down to Earth?

To me, finding them, harvesting them and then transporting them to Earth is the easy part. Getting it all through our atmosphere and through our big gravity well until it is safely on the ground seems like the hard part.

If you didn't care about getting them down intact and can afford to waste a bit of metal, just buy a big open stretch of desert someplace, dig a big conical pit and drop meteors into it. (the pit might even be self digging, but the first few meteors would have higher losses. After the pit gets deep enough, most of the splatter gets intercepted by the walls) After a year of bombardment of one particular place, bring in conventional mining equipment to dig out the metal, and move the bombardment area to another patch of desert.

rjh01 · 26th April 2012, 01:50 AM

Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin

If you didn't care about getting them down intact and can afford to waste a bit of metal, just buy a big open stretch of desert someplace, dig a big conical pit and drop meteors into it. (the pit might even be self digging, but the first few meteors would have higher losses. After the pit gets deep enough, most of the splatter gets intercepted by the walls) After a year of bombardment of one particular place, bring in conventional mining equipment to dig out the metal, and move the bombardment area to another patch of desert.

Might scatter a load of dust into the air. This would have several side effects, such as cooling of the lower atmosphere.

nvidiot · 26th April 2012, 02:11 AM

How do you legally claim an asteroid?

Andrew Wiggin · 26th April 2012, 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by nvidiot

How do you legally claim an asteroid?

Hey, ya'all. That's MY asteroid!

nvidiot · 26th April 2012, 02:23 AM

Two miners from different corporations land on the same rock, one minutes before the other, but the later one starts mining operations first. Who owns the resource?

I don't know if it's possible to claim solar system bodies, but their legal department will have a good time.

Andrew Wiggin · 26th April 2012, 02:30 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

Might scatter a load of dust into the air. This would have several side effects, such as cooling of the lower atmosphere.

I can think of some technical workarounds. Make the hole really deep, and roof it over with thin plastic sheeting, patched between drops? Big fans to make a downdraft in the hole? Water spray to entrain dust and make it rain back out? It's worth tinkering with.

Another possibility might be to put a manufacturing facility in orbit, and make some pretty conventional reentry vehicles (the flat bottomed cone type we used before the space shuttle) out of platinum-iridium alloy, with foamed rock and carbon ablative heat shields. You wouldn't need much in the way of a parachute because it's unmanned and you're just going to throw it into a smelter when it lands. All it needs to do is slow down enough not to shed metal mass in the atmosphere and not to vaporize itself or the ground when it lands. The guidance computers we used on those early reentry capsules could probably be replicated on a single chip these days.

Rasmus · 26th April 2012, 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by nvidiot

How do you legally claim an asteroid?

You stick a flag into it, I guess...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrate...al_real_estate

As I understand it: You don't.

Andrew Wiggin · 26th April 2012, 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by nvidiot

Two miners from different corporations land on the same rock, one minutes before the other, but the later one starts mining operations first. Who owns the resource?

I don't know if it's possible to claim solar system bodies, but their legal department will have a good time.

I think legally it would be a lot simpler to just move the rock, drop it on land you already own, and then mine the land. The ownership then becomes pretty obvious. The only precedent we have for actually marking an extraterrestrial body are the flags the USA put on the moon, but the russians followed that up with a grenade, its shell made of prefragmented claim markers, each one engraved with the hammer and sickle. A bit harder to recover or obliterate that sort of mark than to disappear a few flags.

ETA the russians dropped their grenade on the moon from their 'luna 2' mission, before we planted a flag. I guess that makes it even more a grey area.

OnlyTellsTruths · 26th April 2012, 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin

If you didn't care about getting them down intact and can afford to waste a bit of metal, just buy a big open stretch of desert someplace, dig a big conical pit and drop meteors into it. (the pit might even be self digging, but the first few meteors would have higher losses. After the pit gets deep enough, most of the splatter gets intercepted by the walls) After a year of bombardment of one particular place, bring in conventional mining equipment to dig out the metal, and move the bombardment area to another patch of desert.

I seriously doubt hitting a target from space with "meteors" is easy or even possible. Unless this pit you are talking about is tens of thousands of square miles.

Rasmus · 26th April 2012, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Yes.

Squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

My inner 6 year old is telling me to apply immediately.
My inner 30-something year old is trying to come up with a rationalization still...

Beerina · 26th April 2012, 04:46 AM

Originally Posted by nvidiot

How do you legally claim an asteroid?

This is well-defined historically. You go there and plant your flag on it.

The arrogant assumption that this is all owned by peoples of Earth, and therefore may be carved up by the power hungry in exchange for "donations" by businessmen in exchange for getting the officials back out of the way is humanity's historical Fail.

DO NOT ASSUME THAT IS THE CURRENT, OR PROPER, STATE OF THINGS.

punshhh · 26th April 2012, 05:33 AM

Has it occurred to anyone that these lumps of rock cause mass extinction events?
Quite a liability.

23rd April 2012, 10:05 PM	#1
OnlyTellsTruths Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,784	Project to mine asteroids for water (and precious metals) has begun. ...and by "begun" I mean that it is just off the drawing board. Billionaire-backed asteroid mining venture starts with space telescopes Quote: The venture, which is being formally unveiled Tuesday at Seattle's Museum of Flight, is sufficiently down to Earth to attract funding from such A-list investors <snip> "A water-rich asteroid would greatly enhance the large-scale exploration of the solar system," Anderson said in a news release. "Water has many uses in space. For instance, it would not only be used for hydration, but also would be broken down into oxygen and hydrogen, for breathable air and rocket propellant." But why go to all the trouble, when there's so much water on Earth? "It costs on the order of $20,000 per kilogram to get a liter of water into orbit," Diamandis explained. "If you're able to buy it on orbit for one-hundredth of the cost, that would be transformative." Asteroids also could yield precious metals such as platinum, gold and rare-earth materials — treasures that are worth bringing back to Earth. Diamandis said a single asteroid in the range of 200 to 500 meters in diameter could contain more platinum-group metals than has ever been mined in the whole of human history.
OnlyTellsTruths Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,784	__________________ ________________________

23rd April 2012, 10:08 PM	#2
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,520	Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths ...and by "begun" I mean that it is just off the drawing board. Billionaire-backed asteroid mining venture starts with space telescopes Another one for the OTT "it's science baby" stockpile methinks? Awesome stuff though.
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers

23rd April 2012, 10:16 PM	#4
OnlyTellsTruths Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,784	Originally Posted by Lowpro Another one for the OTT "it's science baby" stockpile methinks? Awesome stuff though. I keep getting tricked by the Google News Science section! They look cool there, but when I post them here, not so much.
OnlyTellsTruths Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,784	__________________ ________________________

23rd April 2012, 10:27 PM	#5
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,520	Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths I keep getting tricked by the Google News Science section! They look cool there, but when I post them here, not so much. Hey man I totally approve! Keep bringin' the good stuff so we don't have to search for it :P I personally have already tried: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=231702 But oh, people could care less about genes.
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers

24th April 2012, 12:51 PM	#7
kleinjahr Thinker Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 235	Before the Belters came the NEOphytes! Good idea, hope they're successful.
kleinjahr Thinker Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 235

23rd April 2012, 10:10 PM	#3
BravesFan Banned Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Ocean Springs, Ms Posts: 1,784	I'm not sure I will live to see this come to fruition (I'm almost 39) but boy does it conjure up childlike images of awesome spaceships and adventure in the heavens!!! That's what I always loved about space, the infinite opportunities for exploration!

23rd April 2012, 11:54 PM	#6
NewtonTrino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bothell, WA Posts: 3,782	Personally I think the next wave of wealth creation is going to come from things like this. Then again a few dudes in a room got facebook to give them a billion dollars so...

25th April 2012, 03:39 AM	#8
OnlyTellsTruths Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,784	It seemed like every news site on the web had a version of this article today: http://news.google.com/news/more?pz=...lJlqzkUn-gpB-M Not sure how long that link will work. Here's another company doing a related project on the Moon: http://www.newsroomamerica.com/story/238648.html
OnlyTellsTruths Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,784	__________________ ________________________

25th April 2012, 06:49 AM	#9
X Slide Rulez 4 Life Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Launching the army, waiting for Hok to commit her forces (then the moles strike...) Posts: 4,082	Are they hiring?
	__________________ It is sad that this is necessary: Argumentum Ad Hominem: "You are wrong because you are ugly." Not Ad-Hom: "You are wrong and you are ugly." [X's posts are] ...as good as having 24 hours of Justin Bieber piped into your ears! - kmortis

25th April 2012, 07:19 AM	#10
paiute Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Smack in the middle of a de Broglie wavelength. Posts: 1,140	Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths ...and by "begun" I mean that it is just off the drawing board. Reminds me of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dia...ig_as_the_Ritz Mining water in space seems very reasonable, but grabbing a huge rock made out of any precious metal seems like a good way to make that metal instantly nonprecious.
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25th April 2012, 07:28 AM	#11
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Let's skip the crap and jump to the conclusion. Politician and cynics: What a waste of money. What good is it used for? Businessman: Sir, in 20 years, you'll be taxing it.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

25th April 2012, 08:16 AM	#12
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	It would be swell if platinum became less precious. Its got lots of fine uses. Same with gold. Its a pity that its mostly stashed away in brick shaped lumps or jewelry. Both would make fine roofing material.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

25th April 2012, 09:46 AM	#13
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,879	Originally Posted by X Are they hiring? Yes.
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25th April 2012, 09:52 AM	#14
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,807	Will be too expensive.
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25th April 2012, 10:19 AM	#15
Myriad Hyperthetical Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 8,198	Originally Posted by quarky It would be swell if platinum became less precious. Its got lots of fine uses. Same with gold. Its a pity that its mostly stashed away in brick shaped lumps or jewelry. Both would make fine roofing material. And from space, they could express deliver it directly to your roof.
	__________________ The cosmos is a vast Loom, with time the warp and space the weft. We are all fruit of the Loom, unaware.

25th April 2012, 10:27 AM	#16
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,701	Originally Posted by quarky It would be swell if platinum became less precious. Its got lots of fine uses. Same with gold. Its a pity that its mostly stashed away in brick shaped lumps or jewelry. Both would make fine roofing material. Metals like rhodium, platinum, and iridium are far too useful in catalysis to become non-precious, even if enough can be brought in from space to increase the world's supply by a factor of one hundred.
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25th April 2012, 11:06 AM	#17
RossFW Muse Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 843	Still, we might need to teach these people what a Tautology is first:- Quote: "It costs on the order of $20,000 per kilogram to get a liter of water into orbit,"
RossFW Muse Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 843

25th April 2012, 11:12 AM	#18
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	And that old British Airways logo: "Getting there at all is half the fun."

25th April 2012, 11:20 AM	#19
lopeyschools Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: West Coast - BC Posts: 372	Originally Posted by paiute Reminds me of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dia...ig_as_the_Ritz Mining water in space seems very reasonable, but grabbing a huge rock made out of any precious metal seems like a good way to make that metal instantly nonprecious. Nah. You just restrict supply to maximize profits. As far as I know there are no laws against space cartels.

25th April 2012, 11:27 AM	#20
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,879	I wouldn't count these folks out. Everyone is focusing on the financial heavies; but this company has managed to snag the Mars Science Laboratory's chief engineer and the Opportunity and Spirit rovers' FD as their lead project managers. These guys have proven histories of successfully building, launching, and landing things on other celestial objects.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

25th April 2012, 07:05 PM	#21
ronin688 Thinker Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Posts: 151	I really think this is a huge moment in space exploration. I suppose it started with SpaceX actually getting into the commercial spaceflight business but this is another huge step. Someday there will be money to be made in space and when that happens space technology and exploration will expand dramtically. It may not (probably will not) turn a profit in the near future, but the strides made in developing the technology and capabilities will be invaluble. Think of how cost effective it was to send out explorers from Europe to scout new trade routes and discover new lands. It used to take the resources of a nation-state to get a few ships across an ocean and back. Now we can cross an ocean in a couple hours and ship things from one side of the globe to the other cheaply and efficiently. You hit a critical mass with this sort of thing, and the plan to mine asteroids is an important step. I'm really excited about the possibilities.
	__________________ "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Salvor Hardin

25th April 2012, 08:38 PM	#22
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	Originally Posted by Madalch Metals like rhodium, platinum, and iridium are far too useful in catalysis to become non-precious, even if enough can be brought in from space to increase the world's supply by a factor of one hundred. No doubt. Any idea of what % of platinum mined goes to catalyst purposes, as opposed to jewelry or simply stashing it in coins and such?
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

25th April 2012, 08:56 PM	#23
OnlyTellsTruths Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,784	Originally Posted by RossFW Still, we might need to teach these people what a Tautology is first:- Quote: "It costs on the order of $20,000 per kilogram to get a liter of water into orbit," It depends on the temperature of the water. Originally Posted by paiute Reminds me of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dia...ig_as_the_Ritz Mining water in space seems very reasonable, but grabbing a huge rock made out of any precious metal seems like a good way to make that metal instantly nonprecious. Originally Posted by lopeyschools Nah. You just restrict supply to maximize profits. As far as I know there are no laws against space cartels. Some claim that that premise is already true; that diamonds are hoarded in London or somewhere. I'm not sure how much of a conspiracy theory that is or not. There is probably a thread on it here somewhere.
OnlyTellsTruths Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,784	__________________ ________________________

25th April 2012, 09:10 PM	#24
Andrew Wiggin Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: A small planet named for its dirt. You'll find it filed under 'mostly harmless' Posts: 2,914	Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths It depends on the temperature of the water. Yah. You have to put it in some sort of container too. I'd guesstimate that a liter of water delivered to orbit requires at least several grams of tankage per liter that also has to be delivered to orbit. If I was in the business of shipping water out of the gravity well, I'd make sure to do that calculation to great precision. A big tank stores a lot of water, but has to be heavy enough to stand up to its own weight on earth. Little bottles don't have to be nearly as strong, but you need lots of them. I bet the optimum answer looks a lot like an inflated condom in a mesh bag. Of course if it's already in orbit somewhere, and frozen solid the whole calculation is moot. Reminds me of Azimov's novella 'The Martian Way', which addressed the same sort of problem, and the novel thinking that was needed to solve it.
	__________________ "Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world." - Arthur Schopenhauer "New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells

25th April 2012, 09:27 PM	#25
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,701	Originally Posted by quarky No doubt. Any idea of what % of platinum mined goes to catalyst purposes, as opposed to jewelry or simply stashing it in coins and such? Couldn't give you a number, but I have heard other chemists complain about platinum being "wasted" in jewellry when it could be put to proper use for electrodes, catalysts, and crucibles. For rhodium, wiki says, "The element's major use (about 81% of world rhodium production) is as one of the catalysts in the three-way catalytic converters of automobiles."
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25th April 2012, 11:34 PM	#26
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,701	Also from wiki: Of the 239 tonnes of platinum sold in 2006, 130 tonnes were used for vehicle emissions control devices, 49 tonnes for jewelry, 13.3 tonnes in electronics, and 11.2 tonnes in the chemical industry as a catalyst. The remaining 35.5 tonnes went to various other minor applications, such as electrodes, anticancer drugs, oxygen sensors, spark plugs and turbine engines.
	__________________ As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker

26th April 2012, 01:10 AM	#27
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,937	Something I'd like answered: how do they get these masses of metal down to Earth? To me, finding them, harvesting them and then transporting them to Earth is the easy part. Getting it all through our atmosphere and through our big gravity well until it is safely on the ground seems like the hard part.
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26th April 2012, 01:18 AM	#28
BravesFan Banned Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Ocean Springs, Ms Posts: 1,784	Originally Posted by Travis Something I'd like answered: how do they get these masses of metal down to Earth? To me, finding them, harvesting them and then transporting them to Earth is the easy part. Getting it all through our atmosphere and through our big gravity well until it is safely on the ground seems like the hard part. i reckon they will break them down and encapsulate them and fly them through the atmosphere inside the ships. They might even have vehicles designed to do nothing else but run transport sorties day after day

26th April 2012, 01:33 AM	#29
Andrew Wiggin Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: A small planet named for its dirt. You'll find it filed under 'mostly harmless' Posts: 2,914	Originally Posted by Travis Something I'd like answered: how do they get these masses of metal down to Earth? To me, finding them, harvesting them and then transporting them to Earth is the easy part. Getting it all through our atmosphere and through our big gravity well until it is safely on the ground seems like the hard part. If you didn't care about getting them down intact and can afford to waste a bit of metal, just buy a big open stretch of desert someplace, dig a big conical pit and drop meteors into it. (the pit might even be self digging, but the first few meteors would have higher losses. After the pit gets deep enough, most of the splatter gets intercepted by the walls) After a year of bombardment of one particular place, bring in conventional mining equipment to dig out the metal, and move the bombardment area to another patch of desert.
	__________________ "Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world." - Arthur Schopenhauer "New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells

26th April 2012, 01:50 AM	#30
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,172	Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin If you didn't care about getting them down intact and can afford to waste a bit of metal, just buy a big open stretch of desert someplace, dig a big conical pit and drop meteors into it. (the pit might even be self digging, but the first few meteors would have higher losses. After the pit gets deep enough, most of the splatter gets intercepted by the walls) After a year of bombardment of one particular place, bring in conventional mining equipment to dig out the metal, and move the bombardment area to another patch of desert. Might scatter a load of dust into the air. This would have several side effects, such as cooling of the lower atmosphere.
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26th April 2012, 02:11 AM	#31
nvidiot Botanical Jedi Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,793	How do you legally claim an asteroid?
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26th April 2012, 02:20 AM	#32
Andrew Wiggin Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: A small planet named for its dirt. You'll find it filed under 'mostly harmless' Posts: 2,914	Originally Posted by nvidiot How do you legally claim an asteroid? Hey, ya'all. That's MY asteroid!
	__________________ "Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world." - Arthur Schopenhauer "New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells

26th April 2012, 02:23 AM	#33
nvidiot Botanical Jedi Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,793	Two miners from different corporations land on the same rock, one minutes before the other, but the later one starts mining operations first. Who owns the resource? I don't know if it's possible to claim solar system bodies, but their legal department will have a good time.
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26th April 2012, 02:30 AM	#34
Andrew Wiggin Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: A small planet named for its dirt. You'll find it filed under 'mostly harmless' Posts: 2,914	Originally Posted by rjh01 Might scatter a load of dust into the air. This would have several side effects, such as cooling of the lower atmosphere. I can think of some technical workarounds. Make the hole really deep, and roof it over with thin plastic sheeting, patched between drops? Big fans to make a downdraft in the hole? Water spray to entrain dust and make it rain back out? It's worth tinkering with. Another possibility might be to put a manufacturing facility in orbit, and make some pretty conventional reentry vehicles (the flat bottomed cone type we used before the space shuttle) out of platinum-iridium alloy, with foamed rock and carbon ablative heat shields. You wouldn't need much in the way of a parachute because it's unmanned and you're just going to throw it into a smelter when it lands. All it needs to do is slow down enough not to shed metal mass in the atmosphere and not to vaporize itself or the ground when it lands. The guidance computers we used on those early reentry capsules could probably be replicated on a single chip these days.
	__________________ "Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world." - Arthur Schopenhauer "New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells

26th April 2012, 02:35 AM	#35
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by nvidiot How do you legally claim an asteroid? You stick a flag into it, I guess... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrate...al_real_estate As I understand it: You don't.
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