Banishing gender in Sweden

[whatthebutlersaw]

Originally Posted by Newbielayman

Well I did read the actual article. The actual article makes it pretty clear that the substitution of the word "hen" as a replacement for gender pronouns is really only one of the measures being instituted in public schools to displace sex roles. You have failed to make any mention of the other measures mentioned in the article or the clear implication in the article that these people believe sex roles are a bad thing other than to say you think it's silly; I would even go further and state that it appears to me that they believe specifically male sexual identity is a bad thing. So are you telling us the article is not accurate on what is claimed there except with respect to the language? And if it is accurate, yet, as you claim, most Swedes think it's silly, why are these measures put in place?

Dear LORD! Is everything you find in print true? I just finished reading The Book of Mormon and have been looking up articles about it and several of them claim it to be accurate. I was meaning to just brush that off but now you are telling me that if you can find a written assertion of something it invariably makes it true?

Well, I guess that's me told. I'm off to ebay to see if I can find some holy underwear.

ETA: I guess I can allevieate any conflicting messages by just deciding not to read any critique of those assertions. Is there some way of knowing ahead of time what you will agree with so you don't waste time reading anything other than what backs up my pre-conceived notions? Do you hold classes?

[icerat]

A bit late to the thread, but I vote for hän since that's pretty much what I end up saying when I (still, after 12 years here) occasionally get tongue-tied between han and hon right in the the middle of a sentence

Now I have to go off and do some study on de/dem/dom as now I'm more confused than ever .... :-/

I give it tops 30 years and English is added to the official language list in Sweden

[Helen]

Originally Posted by icerat

A bit late to the thread, but I vote for hän since that's pretty much what I end up saying when I (still, after 12 years here) occasionally get tongue-tied between han and hon right in the the middle of a sentence

So two votes for hän, I like it too. I think I'll start using it the way you do as an act of solidarity

Quote:

Now I have to go off and do some study on de/dem/dom as now I'm more confused than ever .... :-/

Not that hard really, if you can use hon/henne and han/honom, you can use de/dem. Definitely not rocket surgery...

Quote:

I give it tops 30 years and English is added to the official language list in Sweden

And finally Newbielayman will be happy!

[TubbaBlubba]

Originally Posted by Helen

So two votes for hän, I like it too. I think I'll start using it the way you do as an act of solidarity

But that means something like "direction".


You know, if it catches on it catches on. If not, it's not a sufficiently good word. I think it hinges on whether certain authorities start using it. Does Fredrik Lindström use hen?

[Helen]

As in Rydbergs "Vadan och varthän", do you mean? And the dialectal "vart ska du hän?". But there is also the Finnish hän, for hon and han. Hän is just my personal preference, and most people who use it at all seem to prefer hen.

If enough people find a use for it, it will catch on, that's how it works. Otherwise it might end up being a brief fad for some groups. I don't necessarily think anyone can do much to influence what happens, neither Språkrådet nor Fredrik Lindström.

What do you think, do you feel you need it? And do you hear/see anyone using it?

[TubbaBlubba]

I have no use for it. I only see it used by hipsters and environmental party people.

And I wouldn't underestimate the influence of language authorities.

[whatthebutlersaw]

I read a lot of forums for all sorts of various interests, from astronomy to general interests and parenting forums. I see it used by all sorts of people but in particular it seems to have been useful to those working in caring professions, such as healthcare and childcare. As far from hipsters as you can get and I'm not sure why its usage among the Green Party should in some way disqualify its use for me, since I have a use for it.

People working in professions that require privilege seek each other's advice by generalizing and de-identifying situations and cases. They have clearly found a use for hen. Previously, they would use constructions such as "h*n" and "h*n**". The fact that they have since picked up "hen" shows that the previous construction wasn't practical for various reasons. I have seen it used by people seeking legal advice, people seeking input on situations they need to handle as personal assistants to disabled people, people anonymously asking advice about their own children from teaching professionals and paediatricians.

Saying: "I have no use for it because <group I deride> uses it" isn't really an argument.

"I don't have a use for it in my daily life as I don't handle sensitive information and don't have children of my own" is a good reason for not using it yourself but trying to curb its usage by painting anyone who has a use for it with the same brush sounds a bit petulent.

No one is going to force you to play with Barbies just because there is now a third pronoun for those who find a use for it.

I cringe whenever I hear someone under the age of 55 using "förvisso" because I have found it to be a sign of affecting precociousness, rather than just showing your work. (Particularly since it's usually used slightly incorrectly.) Nonetheless, it is a perfectly useful word that has its place and if I were to assume that the person using it is a pretentious twat on the only evidence of that one word, I would be very unfair, indeed.

ETA: And if anyone listened to language authorities, people wouldn't misuse "de/dem", separate words that aren't supposed to be separated or think that "varav" means the same thing as "varefter". Because, dear lord, language authorities as well as ordinary everyday users have had so many eppies over those things, that if derision worked no one would make those mistakes anymore. And yet, they do. They all do.

[TubbaBlubba]

Originally Posted by whatthebutlersaw

Saying: "I have no use for it because <group I deride> uses it" isn't really an argument.

There is no "because" in my post, and this is not a mistake.

Merely observation. I have no use for it AND the only people I have seen have been either Green Party enthusiasts or hipsters or both.

The above happens to amount of one person, as a piece of trivia. I haven't heard anyone but him use it.

[Kotatsu]

Originally Posted by whatthebutlersaw

or think that "varav" means the same thing as "varefter".

People actually do that?

On a related note:
What sort of direction does "hän" as in "hänryckt" and "vart ska du hän?" actually imply? The (perhaps very dialectal) "dän" (as in "gå dän" = "flytta dig", "gå bort", "bort med dig") means away from the speaker, similar to "dit", "där" and so on. Does "hän" imply a direction towards the speaker, as does "hit" or "här"? If so, does this apply to those cases where it is a part of the word as well, such as "hänryckt" and "hänvisa"?

Or are there several "hän", just as there are several "för"?

[Helen]

Originally Posted by Kotatsu

People actually do that?

On a related note:
What sort of direction does "hän" as in "hänryckt" and "vart ska du hän?" actually imply? The (perhaps very dialectal) "dän" (as in "gå dän" = "flytta dig", "gå bort", "bort med dig") means away from the speaker, similar to "dit", "där" and so on. Does "hän" imply a direction towards the speaker, as does "hit" or "här"? If so, does this apply to those cases where it is a part of the word as well, such as "hänryckt" and "hänvisa"?

Or are there several "hän", just as there are several "för"?

Dän and hän seem to be the same; away (bort), and the same seems to be the case for hän in hänryckt och hänvisa (though I have to admit I haven't delved that deeply). But I can't find any instance of "gå hän". Hän is of course closely related to hädan. But gå hädan is a little further away than gå dän

Oh, I did an utterly unscientific and satistically ridiculous poll; out of twelve people, working with language in one capacity or another, who I have been in contact with today, 10 have used hen (in fairly informal text), and all were willing to use it. Most were pleased to have an alternative to hon/han.

But we will see.

[TubbaBlubba]

I thought "hän" sort of implied "the direction of your destination".

[Helen]

I'm not quite sure that I understand what you mean, TubbaBlubba?

[TubbaBlubba]

Well, "Vart skall du hän?" == What is the direction of your destination?
Hänvisad - Shown direction of destination

Etc. It's not just some random direction, it's the direction you're GOING.

[Father Dagon]

Originally Posted by -Fran-

It's exaggerated. Most people here don't care (not saying if they should or not, just stating that most do, in fact, not care). And I can't see 'hen' catching on, as it sounds every bit as idiotic in Swedish as it does in English in this context. To me it doesn't even sound neutral. Considering that for exampel the possessive of She (hon) is Hennes (hers), it's so alike 'hen', it just comes across as mostly feminine anyway.

True, true. It's just a bunch of columnist modernists that are high on the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis that tries to push this piece of "progress". Haven't not even heard an IRL dismissal. Maybe because people have more important things to do. In 10 years, all this will be as forgotten as the swedish Solanas-fandom of the 00s.

However, there is a gender neutral noun in swedish; "denne" ("that one"). But that wasn't invented by the modernists, and is therefore disregarded.

[TubbaBlubba]

Originally Posted by Father Dagon

True, true. It's just a bunch of columnist modernists that are high on the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis that tries to push this piece of "progress". Haven't not even heard an IRL dismissal. Maybe because people have more important things to do. In 10 years, all this will be as forgotten as the swedish Solanas-fandom of the 00s.

However, there is a gender neutral noun in swedish; "denne" ("that one"). But that wasn't invented by the modernists, and is therefore disregarded.

I am inclined to agree.

[Helen]

Originally Posted by Father Dagon

True, true. It's just a bunch of columnist modernists that are high on the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis that tries to push this piece of "progress". Haven't not even heard an IRL dismissal. Maybe because people have more important things to do. In 10 years, all this will be as forgotten as the swedish Solanas-fandom of the 00s.

However, there is a gender neutral noun in swedish; "denne" ("that one"). But that wasn't invented by the modernists, and is therefore disregarded.

Bit of a problem though; "denne" is not gender neutral ("denna" is, on the other hand). "Denna" is sometimes an option, and often used in those cases, but most of the time it is far too formal.

But again, the users will decide.

(TubbaBlubba, both hän and dän are dialectal variations of hädan and dädan, hädan means away from here - vik hädan, for instance, dädan away from there, and hän and dän follow the same pattern.)

[TubbaBlubba]

Originally Posted by Helen

(TubbaBlubba, both hän and dän are dialectal variations of hädan and dädan, hädan means away from here - vik hädan, for instance, dädan away from there, and hän and dän follow the same pattern.)

Ah, so it's equivalent to "hence" and "thence".

[Helen]

Yes, although the Swedish words are not as versatile any longer, sadly! Perhaps they have been, and we turned out not to need them any longer... But "get thee hence" is of course "vik hädan" in Swedish.

[Father Dagon]

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba

I am inclined to agree.

:brofist:

However, one columnist, Fridah Jönsson in Metro, called b.s. on "hen".

And the dialect in Närke uses "han" (him) instead of "that one" for inanimate objects. E.g. If someone's holding a jar of jam, you can ask that person to open him. And Närke doesn't seem that different from the rest of Sweden.

[Father Dagon]

Originally Posted by Father Dagon

And the dialect in Närke uses "han" (him) instead of "that one" for inanimate objects. E.g. If someone's holding a jar of jam, you can ask that person to open him. And Närke doesn't seem that different from the rest of Sweden.

Oh, sorry! "Han" is "he". "Him" is "honom". I thought that "him" sounded better. But that just proves that language is a living thing and can't be controlled by dictates.

[Craig4]

I can't wait to see how they incorporate this into sex education.

[Helen]

Incorporate what? Our need for a gender-neutral pronoun? We ususally don't discuss pronouns, or other clause elements, much in that way at all in our sex education. Prepositions may be mentioned quite a lot, but no real discussion as such about their grammatical properties.

[Craig4]

Oh come on; there's some sketch comedy gold in this. A teacher standing in front of the class explaining sex without reference to gender. It could be as great as "Who's on First" or "The Dead Parrot Sketch".

[Helen]

An unconventional idea, I know, but why not read the thread?

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by Helen

An unconventional idea, I know, but why not read the thread?

Where did you get the idea that I hadn't?

[Helen]

Originally Posted by Craig4

Where did you get the idea that I hadn't?

From your posts. You seem to think that we are getting rid of our gender-specific pronouns, which we are not. All that has happened is that some goups have suggested that we add a gender-neutral one. It is not meant to replace any other pronouns, and no one will be forced to use it.

[Kotatsu]

Originally Posted by Father Dagon

However, one columnist, Fridah Jönsson in Metro, called b.s. on "hen".

And as usual, the quality of the columns in Metro reflect the price you pay for them.

Originally Posted by Father Dagon

And the dialect in Närke uses "hen" (him) instead of "that one" for inanimate objects. E.g. If someone's holding a jar of jam, you can ask that person to open him. And Närke doesn't seem that different from the rest of Sweden.

Same in Småland, though I would say that I use "hon" more often than "han" for inanimate objects.

[TubbaBlubba]

I only do that for a couple of objects... The time of the day is a "hon", for instance. ("Vad är hon?")

[Father Dagon]

Originally Posted by Kotatsu

And as usual, the quality of the columns in Metro reflect the price you pay for them.

Well, in that column she hit the head of the nail.

And in general, I think that all these newspeak and identity politics issues is just an ersatz for the lack of a functional work market. Good old-fashioned education and work doesn't pay off as much as it used to do. So if you can't advance your status in the "material" world, at least you can in the "immaterial" world.

Originally Posted by Kotatsu

Same in Småland, though I would say that I use "hon" more often than "han" for inanimate objects.

Interesting. And in general, boats are "hon".

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba

I only do that for a couple of objects... The time of the day is a "hon", for instance. ("Vad är hon?")

But isn't "hon" refering to the clock itself?

[TubbaBlubba]

Originally Posted by Father Dagon

But isn't "hon" refering to the clock itself?

I'm not sure, I thought about that a few times while typing the post as well.

[Jorghnassen]

They want to ban gender in Sweden? This is what happens when you ban gender in Sweden!

[RhodyDave]

Gender isn't a 'problem' which needs to be corrected. The social implications and inequities can't be addressed by conventions of language. Education, reforms, and legislation can address the injustices.

[whatthebutlersaw]

Originally Posted by RhodyDave

Gender isn't a 'problem' which needs to be corrected. The social implications and inequities can't be addressed by conventions of language. Education, reforms, and legislation can address the injustices.

Have reading threads fallen completely out of fashion?

[whatthebutlersaw]

Originally Posted by Helen

Dän and hän seem to be the same; away (bort), and the same seems to be the case for hän in hänryckt och hänvisa (though I have to admit I haven't delved that deeply). But I can't find any instance of "gå hän". Hän is of course closely related to hädan. But gå hädan is a little further away than gå dän

Oh, I did an utterly unscientific and satistically ridiculous poll; out of twelve people, working with language in one capacity or another, who I have been in contact with today, 10 have used hen (in fairly informal text), and all were willing to use it. Most were pleased to have an alternative to hon/han.

But we will see.

I don't have a written example but my father would use the construct "Gå hän!" Dialect background: He grew up in rural Gästrikland with a mother who sported Dalmål and a father who spake Jamtska. My mother - who was third generation in the same area - doesn't use "hän" or "dän" and never did. The same goes for her sisters, her mother and grandmother. Since it's probably not tied to the area he grew up in, my dad likely picked it up from either parent although I'm not sure which one. Dalarna or Jämtland.

Pops would differentiate between "dän" and "hän" thusly - "Gå dän!" meant "Get out of the way!" (Or "Knô daj!", to Tubba) while "Gå hän!" in his usage, I'm sorry to say, meant "Go to hell!" or - more politely -"Get as far away from me as possible!"

I still hear "Gå dän" from Hälsingar, even in the younger generations. (Oddly enough, the people I know tend to use "gå dän!" more often when telling a dog to leave something alone, than when they address another person. It is possible they try to drop a bit of dialect when they get utsocknes visitors and unconsciously revert to what they are used to when talking to their dogs.)

[mike3]

Quote:

Ironically, in the effort to free Swedish children from so-called normative behavior, gender-neutral proponents are also subjecting them to a whole set of new rules and new norms as certain forms of play become taboo, language becomes regulated, and children's interactions and attitudes are closely observed by teachers. One Swedish school got rid of its toy cars because boys "gender-coded" them and ascribed the cars higher status than other toys. Another preschool removed "free playtime" from its schedule because, as a pedagogue at the school put it, when children play freely "stereotypical gender patterns are born and cemented. In free play there is hierarchy, exclusion, and the seed to bullying." And so every detail of children's interactions gets micromanaged by concerned adults, who end up problematizing minute aspects of children's lives, from how they form friendships to what games they play and what songs they sing.

What are the consequences of not doing this, anyway? Does allowing more "freedom" on this truly inevitably lead to terrible gender discrimination and the kinds of centuries of hurt women have suffered throughout history? I.e. without this, women are going to get the s**t sack and it's inevitable? Period? Is there solid evidence that if boys are allowed to play freely with cars, then they'll inevitably become woman-hating misogynists?

[whatthebutlersaw]

Originally Posted by mike3

What are the consequences of not doing this, anyway? Does allowing more "freedom" on this truly inevitably lead to terrible gender discrimination and the kinds of centuries of hurt women have suffered throughout history? I.e. without this, women are going to get the s**t sack and it's inevitable? Period? Is there solid evidence that if boys are allowed to play freely with cars, then they'll inevitably become woman-hating misogynists?

Here's a novel idea! How about going back and reading the thread?

That way you'd know that the article in the OP is a complete fabrication and nothing with the implications you are worrying about actually is happening. I'm thinking whoever wrote that article is also Santorum's fact checker.

[RhodyDave]

Wow, whatthebutlersaw - unnecessary aggression much? I read some of the thread, mainly the first several posts, but didn't read everything and apparently missed that the OP was a fraud.

Sorry for ruining your day by not dedicating all of my free time to making sure I didn't miss every bit of minutiae in this thread. Thanks, though, for your considerate and kind reply to my post.

[whatthebutlersaw]

Originally Posted by RhodyDave

Wow, whatthebutlersaw - unnecessary aggression much? I read some of the thread, mainly the first several posts, but didn't read everything and apparently missed that the OP was a fraud.

If by "aggression" you mean "pointing out that reading aids understanding" then I wouldn't call it unnecessary. It is actually useful advice.

Please point to the aggression in the post to which you are responding. What are the aggression markers?

Is it possible that you are overreacting to being corrected?

Quote:

Sorry for ruining your day by not dedicating all of my free time to making sure I didn't miss every bit of minutiae in this thread. Thanks, though, for your considerate and kind reply to my post.

Thank you for your concern. However, it takes a lot more than random people with poor reading comprehension and critical thinking skills on the internet to ruin my day. This response may or may not match your sense of your own importance. I take no responsibility for this.

[Helen]

Originally Posted by whatthebutlersaw

I don't have a written example but my father would use the construct "Gå hän!" Dialect background: He grew up in rural Gästrikland with a mother who sported Dalmål and a father who spake Jamtska. My mother - who was third generation in the same area - doesn't use "hän" or "dän" and never did. The same goes for her sisters, her mother and grandmother. Since it's probably not tied to the area he grew up in, my dad likely picked it up from either parent although I'm not sure which one. Dalarna or Jämtland.

Pops would differentiate between "dän" and "hän" thusly - "Gå dän!" meant "Get out of the way!" (Or "Knô daj!", to Tubba) while "Gå hän!" in his usage, I'm sorry to say, meant "Go to hell!" or - more politely -"Get as far away from me as possible!"

I still hear "Gå dän" from Hälsingar, even in the younger generations. (Oddly enough, the people I know tend to use "gå dän!" more often when telling a dog to leave something alone, than when they address another person. It is possible they try to drop a bit of dialect when they get utsocknes visitors and unconsciously revert to what they are used to when talking to their dogs.)

Thanks, wtbs, very interesting! How nice that the meaning of "hän" is reminiscent of "vik hädan, Satan", I love that. Made my day! (You can't be too choosy if you want your day made at my age. Although I suspect it would have made my day 20 years ago as well...)

And people often revert to their dialectal origins when talking to dogs and children; I suspect it's because it's our most personal language, the one from our own childhood, and that is why it's used in very informal and intimate moments.

RhodyDay, I don't see any aggression either, only a suggestion that reading the thread might clear up a few misconceptions.

[Kotatsu]

Originally Posted by whatthebutlersaw

I still hear "Gå dän" from Hälsingar, even in the younger generations. (Oddly enough, the people I know tend to use "gå dän!" more often when telling a dog to leave something alone, than when they address another person. It is possible they try to drop a bit of dialect when they get utsocknes visitors and unconsciously revert to what they are used to when talking to their dogs.)

It's also very common in the Jönköping area, and possibly in other parts of Småland. I use it all the time, for people as well as for my cats. Sometimes, people don't understand the word, and inescapably the cats don't care.

I have a prescriptionist aunt who hates the word because it is not a "proper word". She is the kind of person who stopped opposing the usage of the word when my mother pointed out to her that it is actually in SAOB. Misinformed prescriptionists that can be silenced that easily is the best kind of prescriptionists.

(Incidentally, for those following this thread, my thesis defense went very well, so as soon as I've sorted out some books and some red tape, I'll be the person on this forum with the most recent Ph.D.!)