Can the Kerchers and Lumumba unite with Knox and Sollecito against a common enemy?

[Mary_H]

Kerchers say report of Amanda Knox suit is bogus

"Today, Lyle Kercher, brother of the slain student, said that the reports are false."

(Unfortunately, the article doesn't say who he said it to.)

[davefoc]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Darth, read my lips.

R - U - D - Y G - U - E - D - E

If you can find any evidence that he didn't act alone, feel free to present it.

Rolfe.

Yes and please be particularly free to present it in the thread established to discuss issues like that:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...83#post7699483

[JREF2010]

Read several articles of the Lyle Kercher stating the rumors of them suing is not true. He wonders where the fanatical media comes from, he could probably ask Maresca..

"I can assure you that it's absolute nonsense," Kercher said. "I'm not even sure where these fantastical ideas come from sometimes."

[JREF2010]

I read todays article by Barbie, still pushing the guilt and exploiting the Kerchers.

All I can think of is how much harm Maresca has done to the Kerchers.
His bias and self indulgent approach has left the Kerchers in a bad way.

Its hard to believe Barbies articles anymore, maybe a video is better these days, and the words alone forgotten, remembered as too speculative, to easily misconstrued.

Like Edgardo Giobbi on film saying how he knew they were guilty before any science was involved, on film, in his own words.

Barbies interpretations are possibly too tainted.

[halides1]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

One way or another, the Kerchers would probably like to know who the hell killed their daughter, and see that party brought to justice.

Not seeing a Cold Case success on that score in twenty years, so what are the odds that they'll have their needs satisfied in the short term?

All Italians are invited to comment, as y'all know your own nation's criminal justice system, and your police, best.

In my country, not all murders are solved.

Darth Rotor,

I can tell you my explanation of the crime in one sentence having two clauses: A woman walked into a burglary in progress, and it escalated into sexual assault and murder. I wish someone whom the Kerchers trusted could see it as I see it, and then explain it to them. The Kerchers would then be in the unenviable position of having to acknowedge that the people in whom they put their trust, did not really deserve it.

[davefoc]

Originally Posted by halides1

A woman walked into a burglary in progress, and it escalated into sexual assault and murder. ...

I thought it deserved repeating.

Everything else is explained by a whacked prosecutor, a compliant police department, a forensic technician that identified too much with the prosecution and a press driven by the financial rewards of reporting on a unique and salacious crime whether it happened or not. I have not seen a shred of reliable evidence that suggests anything to contrary.

[JREF2010]

reading todays news....probably a "no" to the threads question.

as davefoc lists, all of these things have to be true for the two to be innocent.

its understandable then that many believe in the guilt, if thats the case. its very bizarre to imagine all these people from Perugia and Rome, all in different fields to all be wrong, incompetent, corrupt, or ignorant before the two can be believe d to be innocent...which might be a foundation for some hardcore-guilters..

a perfect storm of a messed up investigation....

"its harder to undo than do" comes to mind? wow....

[Rolfe]

The Innocence Project refers to it as "unbaking a cake".

Rolfe.

[JREF2010]

Waiting for Rudy to speak the truth is a long shot.

Maybe over time, the Kerchers might read and understand the science and details that lead to the acquittal.

Unbaking a cake...

[JREF2010]

This is a picture I havent seen before.
http://www.daylife.com/photo/0aUO8mE...rugia%2C+Italy

I wonder how this relationship is doing between the KErchers and the Prosecutor Migninni and Puppet Maresca.

Has anyone heard any updates on the Kercher familys impact on proceeding, or is it all determined by the Prosecutor, and Meredith's family having little say in the legal process? Reading Hellmans report the largest change is the ToD, it seems. He excluded the marginal/non-conclusive items as blob prints and the broken window it seems to me, and obviously the knife and DNA was studied more.

but will the Hellman court, Time of the Attack of 9pm, a stabbing of 9:30pm approx...,
convince the family that suffers the most?

This picture makes me wonder how close the family was to the prosecution. Or were the Kerchers taken into a face-saving ordeal, like the movie "Changeling" true story about the LAPD and the child killer?

[RandyN]

Hummm...a perfectly good non-moderated thread. This must be brought to the attention of min fuer......

Picture Lumumba all fat and happy ...he is freed from jail after two weeks. Now what to do. The offers start rolling in...a huge offer from DM. He bites. He tells the truth the best that he knows anyway...dirty black, beaten, questioned by 5 or more at a time, no food, no water, no lawyer! All day...did I say no water? Did I say beaten? Yes all the words of PL describing his very own interrogation on Nov 6th, 2007.

How hard is it to imagine what happens next? Mignini calls Lumumba in for a little chat...he reminds Lumumba that it is not in his interest to accuse the police of such clearly abusive and illegal treatment. And so to place a fine point on the matter the police suddenly decide to keep Lumumbas bar closed (a crime scene they say) for months and months or until bankruptcy at least...I guess they showed that dirty black.

Now whos foolin who? The only way Lumumba comes out with the real truth is during a cross examination of himself by AK and RS lawyers who have sued him for slander (not yet but they will)and for the first time in court Lumumba must now explain why said what he said to the DM.

This is just one small issue that proves this case is more about corruption and less about incompetence....although there is plenty of both.

The extraneous sub law suits filed by Mignini also indicate a need and desire by him and his office to quiet any reporters or papers writing unfavorable articles toward the prosecutor himself or his case in general. This clearly shows that Mignini is certainly guilty of abuse of office and of power since he uses the states money to muscle the media and even the defendants and their parents into line.

That Maresca was hand picked by Mignini is well known. That these two act more like greedy yet odd twins and agree on every thought says that they never had the Kerchers in mind at all, rather that Mignini had to win this case at ANY cost and Maresca was in it for the money alone and they both used the Kerchers as pity puppets without care or concern of their feelings not really any concern for true justice. In fact they often were at odds with the truth....

Who objected to the questioning of Rudy during the appeal trial when he showed up to read his letter? Mignini and Maresca both rose to object to the defense questions...which btw Hellmann noticed and noted in his motovation report of the appeal trial.

So can these opposing forces ever join? I say no. First they do not share a common enemy. AK and RS must sue all those who have wronged them and so in court be able to cross examine those who have wronged them...for example Lumumbas lawyer called Knox a witch yet failed to provide the court of any evidence or proof of this. I think he and his client should be called to answer for this and all the other wild and untrue statements made by both.

The falsely accused have so far been unable to examine the accusers in a court...and frankly if John Kercher cant shut up by now then he too needs sued. Until they look at what they almost accomplished in jailing innocents (just one more corrupt or idiotic judge was all they needed) then there can never be healing for them...let alone finding a common enemy.

Guede is going to walk free in just a few years...the real killer will be laughing at the foolishness of the distraction caused by Mignini and company. Guede can thank him and the police for keeping the heat off him and so allow him to get a slap basically for the brutal rape and murder of an innocent young woman.

This kiss from Mignini to Kercher is not unlike Judas kissing Jesus. And enough details are known to prove that incompetence was a factor but corruption was the rule. I hope they are all called to answer for their deeds.

[Rolfe]

I don't imagine they can do anything until the acquittals are confirmed, though.

Rolfe.

[stilicho]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

....

Quote:

Quote:
Mr Kercher said he was backing a prosecution appeal because evidence showed jailed Rudy Guede, 24, did not act alone.

And the other thing he hasn't figured out is that all that evidence was discredited by the Hellmann court. It was all evidence said to suggest Knox and Sollecito were involved. And it fell apart under close and impartial examination. All he's really saying is that he still believes Massei, and does not accept Hellmann's findings. We'll see how he reacts when Hellmann's motivations report is published.

Rolfe.

You now have the answer to your important question. John Kercher wrote a book about his daughter that was released earlier this week:

http://www.amazon.com/Meredith-John-.../dp/1444742760

John avoids criticism of the handling of an ongoing case against the killers of his daughter but he amply explodes the myth that Amanda and Meredith were friends. They weren't. He knows it, his ex-wife and other children know it, and Meredith's friends know it.

The myth of their friendship has been repeated on the agonisingly unending thread but we now have confirmation that it is simply not true.

[Didaktylos]

******** - all John Kercher has proved is that he is sadly lacking in critical thinking skills.

[halides1]

Well, let's take a look at the photos on Amanda's Toshiba drive...Oh, wait, the police damaged the drive. That might not be a problem except that the police never agreed to release it to the defense, who were willing to pay for possible data retrieval. Therefore, all we have is the trial testimony, and that does not indicate anything other than normal roommate issues between the two, IMO.

[RoseMontague]

Originally Posted by stilicho

You now have the answer to your important question. John Kercher wrote a book about his daughter that was released earlier this week:

http://www.amazon.com/Meredith-John-.../dp/1444742760

John avoids criticism of the handling of an ongoing case against the killers of his daughter but he amply explodes the myth that Amanda and Meredith were friends. They weren't. He knows it, his ex-wife and other children know it, and Meredith's friends know it.

The myth of their friendship has been repeated on the agonisingly unending thread but we now have confirmation that it is simply not true.

The myth is that they were enemies or that they didn't like each other. The indications are that it was a developing friendship. They attended a concert together as well as the chocolate festival, they went out for dinner together and to bars, they also exchanged friendly text messages. These are not the actions of people that dislike each other.

In my opinion the seven British virgins were simply jealous of this brash American that was developing a friendship with Meredith and they thought her behavior after the murder was not properly respectful. The very minor things about cleaning the toilet and leaving a vibrator on the sink are just pure minor silliness designed to justify their anti-Amanda feelings.

[RoseMontague]

Originally Posted by Didaktylos

******** - all John Kercher has proved is that he is sadly lacking in critical thinking skills.

That was shown when he laid out his case for guilt in an earlier article.

[Skind]

Originally Posted by stilicho

The myth of their friendship has been repeated on the agonisingly unending thread but we now have confirmation that it is simply not true.

No, no we don't. What we have is the father of the victim claiming that the person he thinks is the murderer was not 'friends' with the victim - yet the reasons he lists are indistinguishable from petty 'roomie' squabbles (and are incredibly mild compared to some I've known).

His contemporary claims about the friendship have been quoted either here or elsewhere, and they contradict his current claims - as do the interviews of Merediths boyfriend, and Merediths known behaviour towards Knox in her final weeks.

The idea that they were NOT 'friends' in the 'roomie' sense was exploded by: John Kerchers reported claims at the time, Merediths own boyfriend, Merediths own behaviour.

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by RoseMontague

In my opinion the seven British virgins were simply jealous of this brash American that was developing a friendship with Meredith and they thought her behavior after the murder was not properly respectful. The very minor things about cleaning the toilet and leaving a vibrator on the sink are just pure minor silliness designed to justify their anti-Amanda feelings.

Perhaps the way to read this is the idea that good friends share vibrators.

With that in mind, it might be left in the sink after having washed it, or before washing it, as good friends would clean a shared vibrator after use in consideration for her friend.

Then again, since I know nothing of vibrator protocol, I would by default presume that it has similarities to toothbrush protocol (you don't usually share your toothbrush, do you?) so the above might be a serious case of "no, not at all likely."

This leaves open the possibility that a shared vibrator is evidence to support "they were considerate to one another" even if "BFF" status had not yet been achieved.

[Matthew Best]

Please try harder.

[Antony]

Originally Posted by stilicho

John avoids criticism of the handling of an ongoing case against the killers of his daughter ...

John Kercher suffered an unimaginable loss and has been led up the garden path by a legal "advisor" working hand-in-glove with a prosecutor desparate to win regardless of justice.

People often react irrationally in his situation. What's your excuse?

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally Posted by Antony

John Kercher suffered an unimaginable loss ....

Actually he didn't..

Uncountable people have lost loved ones through violent and other circumstances, so John Kercher's experience is in no way unique ..

Why the drama ?

[RoseMontague]

I understand that Mr. Kercher has brought up long discredited rumors of a bleach receipt and waiting for the cops with mop and bucket in hand as evidence of guilt. If true, then there is no hope for the OP of this thread to become a reality. Sad, really.

[halides1]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Perhaps the way to read this is the idea that good friends share vibrators.

Darth Rotor,

The vibrator in question was a joke gift. From what I recall of Robyn Butterworth's testimony, she had to be shown where to look for the plastic bag with the condoms and the toy vibrator. The bag was under the sink, and I doubt that Meredith was shocked by the contents of the bag. Amanda recalled Meredith asking her for condoms on one occasion (Meredith had a boyfriend named Giacomo).

[halides1]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

Actually he didn't..

Uncountable people have lost loved ones through violent and other circumstances, so John Kercher's experience is in no way unique ..

Why the drama ?

Skeptical Greg,

I respectfully submit that only those parents who have lost children have a full understanding of Mr. Kercher's pain. He gets a pass from me, but his beliefs and arguments do not.

[Bill Williams]

Originally Posted by halides1

Skeptica Greg,

I respectfully submit that only those parents who have lost children have a full understanding of Mr. Kercher's pain. He gets a pass from me, but his beliefs and arguments do not.

Amen and amen.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally Posted by halides1

Skeptica Greg,

I respectfully submit that only those parents who have lost children have a full understanding of Mr. Kercher's pain. He gets a pass from me, but his beliefs and arguments do not.

Then his pain is not ' unimaginable '. is it ?

Which is what I addressed..

[RandyN]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

Then his pain is not ' unimaginable '. is it ?

Which is what I addressed..

At this point Mr Kercher must take some responsibility for his continued deluded pain. Not the very real pain of having suffered the unnatural death of a child...that is real and inconsolable. Kerchers departure from reality is in his blind acceptance of long ago disproved issues.

Kerchers book which was suppose to be a remembrance of his daughter barely gets past one page without mention of AK or RS....and so he becomes exactly what he claimed to rail against. The poor man has been driven almost insane by Maresca and Mignini. He will most likely die thinking that a group murdered his daughter...when it was simply a robbery gone wrong...poor man. But at some point one must realize what is most likely or at least ponder that scenario. Kercher never will though. He thinks MK was a karate expert able to fend off a man almost twice her weight. That is delusional. He thinks two knives were used. That is delusional. He thinks the DNA evidence is sound...etc... poor man.

[Antony]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

Then his pain is not ' unimaginable '. is it ?

Which is what I addressed..

Sadly, it's true that there was nothing unique or exceptional about this murder. One of the baffling features of this case is the way the horrible nature of the tragedy suffered by the Kercher family has been used as an argument that the injustice against AK and RS should not be challenged. I still stand by my use of the word "unimaginable" - only a parent who has lost a child in tragic circumstances can understand what they have been through.

But that wasn't the point I was making. Stilicho refers to "the ongoing case against the killers of his daughter", which is the same irrational view as the one that John Kercher regrettably still clings to. JK has the excuse of being a bereaved parent (and furthermore having his grief exploited by an unscrupulous lawyer); Stilicho and the other PMF cultists have no such excuse.

[JREF2010]

If the kitchen knife is eventually understood and fully believed to be false evidence, by the Kerchers, then the murder weapon becomes less sensational, and the evidence changes.

C&V were not only neutral participants, they did the obvious and the blade was not cleaned, there was no blood near the handle nor under it, not even a pico gram.

So if the Kerchers can accept this solid fact, then the evidence of the murder weapon is the blood pattern on the bedsheet.

A paradigm shift, from the kitchen knife to the murder weapon evidence now the pattern on the bedsheet, which was found a few inches from Merediths purse, where Rudys DNA was found on, and the area surrounded only by Rudys Nike prints.

Arline said , theres only the evidence in the end, or something like that. So she at least seems to be open to the science and in this piece of evidence , the obvious. (imo), the kitchen knife was not just made marginal it was absolutely removed.

So yes, Antony, I agree the horrific event, but also the circus that was created by the media and Migninni's belief, but also very strange forensic work , like not testing the area of the knife handle for years.

[halides1]

I commented on the Gregory Taylor case in the main Knox/Sollecito thread with respect to forensics. Taylor was exonerated after spending 17 years behind bars. This thread seems the more appropriate place for a portion of David Zucchino's article.
[quote] Taylor hugged Yolanda Littlejohn, the slain prostitute's sister. Littlejohn has said Taylor was innocent and had helped with his defense. She visited him in prison to tell him she believed in him.

"This is a person who lost a member of her family," Taylor said. "How many people could look at this case objectively and think they might have the wrong person?"

He paused and added: "I don't think I could've done that." [endquote]

[JREF2010]

Halides, interesting piece. On some specifics at east in Italy they are awarded the higher level appeals as normal process, seems the chances are low in the US to get a second chance in court. The best system is probably somewhere in the middle of the two systems. 17yrs in prison for something you didnt do, what a "reality tv show nightmare".