Merged: Cold Fusion Claims

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by nathan

Both his papers (a) explained existing repeatable observations better than existing theories and (b) made falsifiable predictions about other observations that could be made. (and of course, the maths worked out)

And the same was true of his paper on Brownian motion, which explained it as a consequence of the atomic theory of matter. People these days forget that something such as that, which we take as fundamental, was still a seriously debated topic at that time.


http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/essay-brownian.htm

[nathan]

Thanks Horatius, for some reason the Brownian Motion paper never came up in my education, and I was spacing on what the 3rd paper was. Probably because BM was taught in high school and the atomic theory presented as a fact without history. Whereas SR and PEE were taught at university where theory development was important.

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by RobDegraves

I don't think this is a valid concern.

1. We already use a lot of energy, it's just not cheap, unlimited or environmentally sound. If you could come up with cheap, clean energy it would lower pollution by a lot and contribute to higher standards of living for everyone.

2. As far as heat is concerned... you can simply enough use energy to cool the planet down... assuming that the energy is plentiful enough to make that a financially sustainable process.

The more enthusiastic cryofusionists propose that cheap energy could be used to distill such an abundance of seawater that the deserts would speedily turn green. Food would be produced in huge quantities, and the new forests would absorb surplus CO2, solving the global warming problem. If such there be, that is: many Rossi fanboys are extremely right wing, and they include many athropogenic climate change deniers in their ranks.

[Cuddles]

Originally Posted by Farsight

It won't be cheap, Beelzebub.

Amazingly enough I have to agree with Farsight here. It may be based on rather silly conspiratorial thinking, but the conclusion is at least correct. Cold fusion would be clean and sustainable energy. For some reason people always seem to equate that with cheap energy, but that's just not the case. Ultimately, cold fusion would just produce heat. Other than the abundance and safety of the fuel, it's no different from any other heat source used in power stations. You still need all the other bits to actually get electricity out of it, and important factors such as the economies of scale won't magically vanish just because you've found a new kind of fuel.

It could possibly be cheaper, since after all you'd hardly need to pay anything for fuel. But you know what else you hardly need to pay anything to fuel? Nuclear fission. And hopefully soon nuclear fusion. Neither of them are especially cheap when compared to fossil fuels or some renewables.

Cold fusion would be awesome as a clean, sustainable source of energy, but there's no reason to expect it to be cheap, and certainly not free as is often claimed. You still either need to pay someone to produce energy for you, or you need to pay someone to make the things to allow you to produce energy.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Cuddles

Amazingly enough I have to agree with Farsight here. It may be based on rather silly conspiratorial thinking, but the conclusion is at least correct. Cold fusion would be clean and sustainable energy. For some reason people always seem to equate that with cheap energy, but that's just not the case. Ultimately, cold fusion would just produce heat. Other than the abundance and safety of the fuel, it's no different from any other heat source used in power stations. You still need all the other bits to actually get electricity out of it, and important factors such as the economies of scale won't magically vanish just because you've found a new kind of fuel.

It could possibly be cheaper, since after all you'd hardly need to pay anything for fuel. But you know what else you hardly need to pay anything to fuel? Nuclear fission. And hopefully soon nuclear fusion. Neither of them are especially cheap when compared to fossil fuels or some renewables.

Cold fusion would be awesome as a clean, sustainable source of energy, but there's no reason to expect it to be cheap, and certainly not free as is often claimed. You still either need to pay someone to produce energy for you, or you need to pay someone to make the things to allow you to produce energy.

True enough on a global scale, but those of us who live in cold climates would certainly stand to benefit from a free-fuel device that does nothing but produce heat. I spend a couple of thousand dollars a year on heating oil, and the furnace wasn't free either. What would one be willing to spend for a hundred thousand BTU furnace that runs on almost nothing? If it were real and if it worked, I'd pop for one tomorrow.

Of course we can hold out about zero hope of this scheme producing any heat except for the figurative hot air customary with such scams, but I think it's also a mistake to discount energy saving and producing schemes simply because they can't do everything at once. You can get at least a certain amount of benefit from a heat source even if you can't turn it into electricity or motion. Reallocate the gazillions of gallons of #2 oil we burn for heat, and it becomes cheaper diesel for the trucks, less dependence on foreign oil, maybe less expenditure on missiles and battleships to defend our interests, etc. etc. A little improvement is not nothing.

blah blah blah, I know. Wishes and fishes.

[PieEconomics]

Mark LeClair, former Lockheed scientist, has a diamond (the size of a postage stamp) that he claims was transmuted out of ordinary water.

Dr. Edmond Storms, formerly of Los Alamos National Laboratories, told Mark: “you triggered many kinds of very energetic nuclear reactions, not just fusion”.

Edmond D. Pope, former Naval Intelligence officer, is an adviser to Mark’s company, NanoSpire.

Mark claims his device costs just $250 to make, that it can be figured out just by reading his patents, and that he has had serious radiation poisoning from it twice.

The other-worldly, postage stamp sized diamond has been tested, along with 90 other "transmuted" elements. Even though the validity of the story as to how the samples came about has not been proven, shouldn't people at least be curious to look at the numerous physical artifacts: In addition to all those elements detected in large amounts (grams), he has a dish that originally held some transmuted elements that is etched with nuclear tracks, the device, and lab reports from the testing of samples.

I've been trying to get mainstream media to do a show about it. The series could culminate with a live demonstration. A well known skeptic could be asked to choose five scientists as observers. A $1 million prize could be awarded to the inventor, if a threshold amount of new elements are created, and excess energy created exceeds a certain ratio. This type of show would be a commercial success whether or not validity was proven (even with the media providing full funding); an important consideration in an area of investment where total loss is the norm.

[CriticalThanking]

Originally Posted by PieEconomics

Mark LeClair, former Lockheed scientist, has a diamond (the size of a postage stamp) that he claims was transmuted out of ordinary water.

He went from Hydrogen (or Oxygen or the combined molecule?) to pure Carbon with a desktop device? Really? Do you have a link (post it without the www and we will linkify it for you) or is this a story from a friend of a friend?

Quote:

Dr. Edmond Storms, formerly of Los Alamos National Laboratories, told Mark: “you triggered many kinds of very energetic nuclear reactions, not just fusion”.

That would be an understatement.

Quote:

Edmond D. Pope, former Naval Intelligence officer, is an adviser to Mark’s company, NanoSpire.

And his physics qualifications relevant to this are....?

Quote:

Mark claims his device costs just $250 to make, that it can be figured out just by reading his patents, and that he has had serious radiation poisoning from it twice.

And what hospital treated him for radiation poisoning?

Quote:

The other-worldly, postage stamp sized diamond has been tested, along with 90 other "transmuted" elements.

What independent lab tested these? Where are the published results?

Quote:

Even though the validity of the story as to how the samples came about has not been proven, shouldn't people at least be curious to look at the numerous physical artifacts: In addition to all those elements detected in large amounts (grams), he has a dish that originally held some transmuted elements that is etched with nuclear tracks, the device, and lab reports from the testing of samples.

I guess some folks could be curious. Those with even a smattering of science knowledge would probably not believe it, but they might find it interesting.

Quote:

I've been trying to get mainstream media to do a show about it. The series could culminate with a live demonstration. A well known skeptic could be asked to choose five scientists as observers. A $1 million prize could be awarded to the inventor, if a threshold amount of new elements are created, and excess energy created exceeds a certain ratio. This type of show would be a commercial success whether or not validity was proven (even with the media providing full funding); an important consideration in an area of investment where total loss is the norm.

No. This does not appear to be a paranormal claim, which is what the JREF prize is for. This appears to be crackpot science. Since you imply he has patents, he should be publishing (or demonstrating for a university so a "real" scientist could publish) this Nobel-level discovery. Screw the show. Verifiable, reproducible evidence is all that matters. Why fund a show? He could do it himself if he can make a postage stamp-sized diamond for $250. He'd be rich already (assuming he didn't go broke treating his radiation poisoning).

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by PieEconomics

Mark LeClair, former Lockheed scientist, has a diamond (the size of a postage stamp) that he claims was transmuted out of ordinary water.

Dr. Edmond Storms, formerly of Los Alamos National Laboratories, told Mark: “you triggered many kinds of very energetic nuclear reactions, not just fusion”.

Edmond D. Pope, former Naval Intelligence officer, is an adviser to Mark’s company, NanoSpire.

Mark claims his device costs just $250 to make, that it can be figured out just by reading his patents, and that he has had serious radiation poisoning from it twice.

The other-worldly, postage stamp sized diamond has been tested, along with 90 other "transmuted" elements. Even though the validity of the story as to how the samples came about has not been proven, shouldn't people at least be curious to look at the numerous physical artifacts: In addition to all those elements detected in large amounts (grams), he has a dish that originally held some transmuted elements that is etched with nuclear tracks, the device, and lab reports from the testing of samples.

I've been trying to get mainstream media to do a show about it. The series could culminate with a live demonstration. A well known skeptic could be asked to choose five scientists as observers. A $1 million prize could be awarded to the inventor, if a threshold amount of new elements are created, and excess energy created exceeds a certain ratio. This type of show would be a commercial success whether or not validity was proven (even with the media providing full funding); an important consideration in an area of investment where total loss is the norm.

Disappointment

You are promoting a story from your own blog
http://pieeconomics.blogspot.com/p/c...take-this.html


How sad and disappointing

And totally loony:
http://pesn.com/2012/04/28/9602083_N...tion_in_Water/

http://www.1888pressrelease.com/nano...pr-372884.html

ETA: Welcome to the Forum!

[CriticalThanking]

Ok - I went to the Nanospire web page. I found the press release related to this.



Every woo technology buzzword on my bingo card was filled within the first couple of paragraphs.

ETA - beaten to it by Dancing David

[ben m]

Originally Posted by PieEconomics

Mark LeClair, former Lockheed scientist, has a diamond (the size of a postage stamp) that he claims was transmuted out of ordinary water.

Mark claims his device costs just $250 to make, that it can be figured out just by reading his patents, and that he has had serious radiation poisoning from it twice.

Claim, claim, claim, claim. You can claim whatever you like, it's easy.

Quote:

The other-worldly, postage stamp sized diamond has been tested, along with 90 other "transmuted" elements. Even though the validity of the story as to how the samples came about has not been proven, shouldn't people at least be curious to look at the numerous physical artifacts: In addition to all those elements detected in large amounts (grams), he has a dish that originally held some transmuted elements that is etched with nuclear tracks, the device, and lab reports from the testing of samples.

Claims, claims, claims, claims. Why should I have to investigate "anomalies"? This isn't a Sherlock Holmes story, in which "a dish with nuclear tracks" is the only clue Moriarty left behind. If this guy has a device that actually does something, the appropriate thing to investigate is the device that does the thing, not mysterious secondary clues.

Compare to a real-world inventor. Dyson didn't put out a years' worth of "claims" regarding a purported bagless vacuum. They just started selling bagless vacuums to the public, whereupon it was obvious that they worked.

Quote:

I've been trying to get mainstream media to do a show about it. The series could culminate with a live demonstration. A well known skeptic could be asked to choose five scientists as observers. A $1 million prize could be awarded to the inventor, if a threshold amount of new elements are created, and excess energy created exceeds a certain ratio. This type of show would be a commercial success whether or not validity was proven (even with the media providing full funding); an important consideration in an area of investment where total loss is the norm.

That doesn't stand up to two seconds of thought; if Le Clair's device were for real, he doesn't need $1M from a reality show---he'd have all the money he needs from his huge supply of diamonds, rare transmutation products, and free energy, and all the publicity/validation he needs from producing an selling a device that actually works. (If, as is likely, Le Clair's device is fake, why would he agree to be unmasked on television?)

The whole "million dollar challenge" rigamarole is appropriate for people who claim personal abilities. If you claim your brain can do something weird, well, I can only test that claim with your participation and cooperation. Hence the *personal* challenge, where you set up incentives for the person to participate.

Dyson didn't withhold their vacuums from testing until lured in with a "challenge". They just sold working vacuums, and gave them to reviewers, and because they worked more people bought them.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by CriticalThanking

Ok - I went to the Nanospire web page. I found the press release related to this.



Every woo technology buzzword on my bingo card was filled within the first couple of paragraphs.

ETA - beaten to it by Dancing David

I forgot my bingo card!

[PieEconomics]

All good points.

This began when I emailed NanoSpire a set of questions, like I send to many other small companies. What I got back was shocking: bizarre stories about experiments, and complicated allegations involving many other parties. It's all detailed on another page of my blog.

None of it set well with me. Then I realized, all that I need to do is to be completely non-assuming, even naive (but holding tightly onto my wallet), and make this public, really public, and the definitive truth will all come out. And we're almost there.

We're in the age of the internet now; it's a whole new ballgame.

[Dancing David]

I find their lack of details disturbing. -Darth Sceptic

[catsmate1]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

I forgot my bingo card!

Here you go.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by catsmate1

Here you go.

[leonAzul]

Originally Posted by CriticalThanking

Ok - I went to the Nanospire web page. I found the press release related to this.



Every woo technology buzzword on my bingo card was filled within the first couple of paragraphs.

But does it blend?

[PieEconomics]

Oh, if anything there may be too many details; just read this transcript (google: PESN NanoSpire transcript).

Last year, Steve Krivit, who has come down really hard against some well known cold fusion contenders, listened to nonstop details from LeClair, who commented: "Steven allowed me to legally record the three hour long interview he had with me... At the tail end of the interview, Steven exclaims, “You did it, your really #%@ing did it!!!”... I will be glad to provide relevant excerpts from the transcript to protect my reputation and a full description of our work to a serious journalist, willing to showcase the tremendous discoveries I have made." (google: newenergytimes issue 36 letters).

I *hope* that LeClair's story proves out; I can dream.

[Dancing David]

You *hope* with no basis in reality.

Oh whoopee doodle, so Steve Krivit says he thinks there is LENR, no data, no evidence.

http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/...ue-36-letters/

Sorry, that is just silly

[Craig B]

From LeClair's response to Krivit, New Energy Times.

Quote:

We saw the presence of nearly every element in the periodic table imbedded into a diamond matrix covering the core of the experiment. The transmuted particles were so radioactive they cooked the clear plastic dishes they were placed in after the experiment. This stopped a week after the experiment, a clear sign of short-lived isotopes, the mass spec anaysis confirmed this. Mass spec is the gold standard and showed the transmuted particles followed supernova isotope ratios (All 80 or so ratios were close to one) and none resembled earthly abundances. All of this is hard to rationally explain as other than being generated by nuclear fusion. There were other many other profound effects we observed that were not subtle as well and equally hard to explain. The experiment gave off powerful crested cnoid de Broglie Matter wave soliton wave packages that were doubly periodic and followed the Jacobi Elliptic functions exactly, mostly in the form of large doubly-periodic vortices. Hundreds of wave trains and vortices appeared everywhere and are permanently burned into walls, objects and trees surrounding the lab.

I'm no physicist. Does this stuff mean anything? If vortices are permanently burned into objects and trees, could samples of these things be obtained?

[catsmate1]

Originally Posted by Craig B

From LeClair's response to Krivit, New Energy Times. I'm no physicist. Does this stuff mean anything? If vortices are permanently burned into objects and trees, could samples of these things be obtained?

It's utter nonsense.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Craig B

From LeClair's response to Krivit, New Energy Times.

Quote:

We saw the presence of nearly every element in the periodic table imbedded into a diamond matrix covering the core of the experiment.

So he is saying they created a diamond out of water, or that they had a cover made of diamond?
The only way to tell is to vaporize the diamond and run it through the mass spectrometer.

Quote:

The transmuted particles were so radioactive they cooked the clear plastic dishes they were placed in after the experiment.

And fried you and gave you radiation poisoning?

Quote:

This stopped a week after the experiment, a clear sign of short-lived isotopes,

Long enough to fry you guys, hey did you happen to see a Geiger counter?

Quote:

the mass spec anaysis confirmed this.

It showed what, usually there are percentages.

Quote:

Mass spec is the gold standard and showed the transmuted particles followed supernova isotope ratios (All 80 or so ratios were close to one) and none resembled earthly abundances.

There were 80 elements in the diamond?

Quote:

All of this is hard to rationally explain as other than being generated by nuclear fusion.

Maybe story telling.

Quote:

There were other many other profound effects we observed that were not subtle as well and equally hard to explain. The experiment gave off powerful crested cnoid de Broglie Matter wave soliton wave packages that were doubly periodic

Gibberish to hide behind?

Psychosis?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_wave


This is loony, they are are talking about QM solutions for matter. They say they measured this how?

This looks like QUANTUM WOO

Quote:

and followed the Jacobi Elliptic functions exactly, mostly in the form of large doubly-periodic vortices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobi_elliptic_functions

So they showed a cyclical nature, at what frequency exactly?

Quote:

Hundreds of wave trains and vortices appeared everywhere and are permanently burned into walls, objects and trees surrounding the lab.

Originally Posted by Craig B

I'm no physicist. Does this stuff mean anything? If vortices are permanently burned into objects and trees, could samples of these things be obtained?

Um this is tale telling and likely a scam or psychosis, they would have been fried to death.

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

So he is saying they created a diamond out of water, or that they had a cover made of diamond?

Maybe it's a diamond "of the first water". As to Rossi and his e-cat, that started this flap, the Italian authorities have now spoken in terms that have dissuaded Rossi from setting up his alleged "factory" there. So it's to be in the USA, which will be of renewed interest to the Florida Board of Radiation Control; or "Sweden". We'll see how long he can keep the Sweden story going. See http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/05/ro...ant-for-italy/ for more details. Even the most crazy of the cryofusionists are giving up on Rossi!

[Akuma Tennou]

you used to laugh at rossi but now it's over. look at this and repent

http://pesn.com/2012/06/30/9602121_Solid_State_E-Cat/

Quote:

Actually, I am in the USA, close to 20 reactors working above 600 Celsius. We must collect at least 20 000 hours of test. This is not sweating: this is vaporizing, as correctly the snakes say.
Soon (weeks) we will publish the report of the high temperature reactor validation.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

source: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physic...comment-262258
the report will be validated by a "third party"
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/07/ro...rature-e-cats/

poe-y enough?

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Akuma Tennou

you used to laugh at rossi but now it's over. look at this and repent
http://pesn.com/2012/06/30/9602121_S..._600dC_300.jpg
http://pesn.com/2012/06/30/9602121_Solid_State_E-Cat/


source: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physic...comment-262258
the report will be validated by a "third party"
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/07/ro...rature-e-cats/

poe-y enough?

If they have enough strippers and booze at the party it's sure to be validated.

[trebor]

The levels of self delusion in that link are high...

Quote:

...but I do not think Andrea Rossi has any reason to be dishonest with us about this issue.

Quote:

The E-Cat keeps on getting better and better!

[Aepervius]

The story on that scam is still going on ?

Oh wait, the steorn scam is still going on, so why not this one.

I wonder how rossi "explain away" his own statement ti US authorities there is no radioactive reactor built or sold on US soil....

[Horatius]

Quote:

When first introduced to the world, Andrea Rossi's E-Cat required a flow of water to remain stable, even at low temperatures. Now, he has developed a new "solid state" high temperature model that is stable at temperatures even higher than 600C -- with no cooling needed!

By Hank Mills
Pure Energy Systems News

I'm off to Stundie this!

[leonAzul]

Originally Posted by tsig

If they have enough strippers and booze at the party it's sure to be validated.

Nominated

[Craig B]

Quote:

Soon (weeks) we will publish the report of the high temperature reactor validation.

Thus spake Rossi. Last time he promised a statement, he did so just after an earthquake in Bologna, and then used the damage caused by that event as an excuse for postponing it. I look forward to the ingenious excuse he will resort to this time to keep the suckers hanging on in there.

[Craig B]

Remove repeated post.

[BenBurch]

Originally Posted by tsig

If they have enough strippers and booze at the party it's sure to be validated.

I look forward to my invitation!

[Akuma Tennou]

industrial sales have begun!
http://ecat.com/ecat-products

[Kid Eager]

Originally Posted by Akuma Tennou

industrial sales have begun!
http://ecat.com/ecat-products

Hmmmmm.... if you look at the technical data for the 1MW unit, it claims a 1MW *thermal* output from an average 167kW *electrical* input.

Fine, I guess, but does it include a mechanism for converting the claimed 1MW thermal output into something useful like, suppose, electricity??? ...and if so, what's the resultant output after taking conversion inefficiencies into account?

ETA - also, I note it needs water feed - I wonder if the power to the pumps (if applicable) is covered in the energy budget.

Also ETA - I can also see a problem here with the advertised performance data. It talks about "1MW" thermal output, but nowhere does it seem to frame that in the form of a *rate* of power output (ie kWH).

If I were a cynic, I would suspect the 1MW in thermal output to be produced after 10 hours of 167kW electrical input, as the specs are somewhat incomplete and misleading

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Akuma Tennou

industrial sales have begun!
http://ecat.com/ecat-products

Um, yeah and the third party measurements, the measurements at all?

[Horatius]

Quote:

Operation and Maintenance Cost $1/MWhr

[TjW]

Originally Posted by Kid Eager

Hmmmmm.... if you look at the technical data for the 1MW unit, it claims a 1MW *thermal* output from an average 167kW *electrical* input.

Fine, I guess, but does it include a mechanism for converting the claimed 1MW thermal output into something useful like, suppose, electricity??? ...and if so, what's the resultant output after taking conversion inefficiencies into account?

ETA - also, I note it needs water feed - I wonder if the power to the pumps (if applicable) is covered in the energy budget.

Also ETA - I can also see a problem here with the advertised performance data. It talks about "1MW" thermal output, but nowhere does it seem to frame that in the form of a *rate* of power output (ie kWH).

If I were a cynic, I would suspect the 1MW in thermal output to be produced after 10 hours of 167kW electrical input, as the specs are somewhat incomplete and misleading

No, power is inherently a rate. A watt is one joule per second. A kilowatt is 1000 joules per second. A kWH is a unit of energy. It takes the 1000 joules/sec and multiplies it by the 3600 seconds/1 hour, so a kWH is 3,600,000 joules.

That's not to defend it, but the units are consistent.

[Kid Eager]

Originally Posted by TjW

No, power is inherently a rate. A watt is one joule per second. A kilowatt is 1000 joules per second. A kWH is a unit of energy. It takes the 1000 joules/sec and multiplies it by the 3600 seconds/1 hour, so a kWH is 3,600,000 joules.

That's not to defend it, but the units are consistent.

oops, my bad. I offer JREF the use of my Ferrari as penance!

I still think they are being a bit sneaky with the way they depict the stats, though - or is that more me being more clueless than I thought?

[TjW]

Well here's a goodie -- the fuel costs will be negligible. Wait, what?! I thought you put in electricity and got out heat. Now there's a fuel involved, too? Isn't that new, or have I just not been following it closely enough.

[nathan]

Originally Posted by Akuma Tennou

industrial sales have begun!
http://ecat.com/ecat-products

Originally Posted by ecat site

sign-ups for pre-orders ... there will be regularly updates in the specifications ... sign-up is not binding and no payment will be necessary until a final order is agreed upon

No sales have begun at all. The specifications will change. Why do people think 'pre-order' is a word? Why am I watching this movie again?

[Akuma Tennou]

Originally Posted by nathan

No sales have begun at all. The specifications will change. Why do people think 'pre-order' is a word? Why am I watching this movie again?

errrr why spoiling the fun? think like a loony

Quote:

For sale now

that's the only thing they'll read
the guru himself says it

Quote:

The industrial version of the E-Cat is already for sale

source: http://www.freeenergysystems.com/And..._E-Cat_Part_1/

the only thing that annoys me is that i must wait 4 months to see a moment of clarity in some believers... but it'll be soooo fun