Is it wrong to tell a child that god doesn't exist?

[truethat]

Yawn with the strawman. I stated last year that the issue was respect and it's no surprise that she doesn't respect his views when he accused her of brainwashing her child.

So once again, even if you don't understand, my response to the OP is that there are bigger issues at play here. Both the husband and the wife must respect each other's views when it comes to sharing them with their child.

If he is going behind her back after she prays with the child and saying "By the way none of what mommy just told you is true, you aren't praying to anyone because God doesn't really exist!" If his child asks him to pray with him he could go get mommy and say that's something you and Mommy do. It is confusing for a child to be told one thing by one parent and another by the other parent without a frame of reference. Because he feels he is correct he feels valid.

That is very disrespectful to his wife's views and I can understand why she would get angry. There are ways to mutually share your views with your child without it turning into a pissing contest over who is really correct.

That is relative to the discussion whether you understand it or not.

[TheGoldcountry]

As far as you or I know, he didn't do a lot of the things you are suggesting. No one here is suggesting that attacking his wife directly is acceptable, yet you keep setting that up as though it was a shared conviction amongst everyone here.

I understand quite well your concerns, despite your insistence to the contrary. I just don't think that THEY EXIST.

ETA: Insisting that anyone who disagrees with you must obviously not understand your point is quite disrespectful. It's not very conducive to argument. Please don't do it to me anymore, unless your only goal in posting is to offend everyone so no one responds to your posts anymore, in which case more power to you.

[truethat]

could you stop directing your comments to me personally as you are derailing the thread. You don't believe it and that's fine. It has absolutely no bearing on my comments. We are contributing our perspectives not debating them.

[TheGoldcountry]

Originally Posted by truethat

could you stop directing your comments to me personally as you are derailing the thread. You don't believe it and that's fine. It has absolutely no bearing on my comments. We are contributing our perspectives not debating them.

My contributions have been directly on point with the OP.

You address others directly all the time, so don't hang that albatross on my neck.

eta:let's just agree to end it now, ok? I think we're at an impasse.

[Quad4_72]

I have taken the liberty to make a compilation of your impressive misunderstanding of my family situation. Every single individual (Minus one other person I think) gets the situation except you. You have posted blatant lies about things I have said and it really is not appreciated. So let's go through them, one by one.

Originally Posted by truethat

Still don't get what the big deal is except the fact that nearly every time you post about your wife the level of disrespect dripping in the posts is potent.

Provide evidence of a single time I have disrespected my wife. The only thing you have is a thread I made a year ago where the way I phrased my coming out as an atheist to her could of been interpreted as arrogant. Other then that, you have nothing except lies. As I said, I really, REALLY don't appreciate being accused of being disrespectful to my wife.

Quote:

so if you could just put aside the "beliefs" cock block mentality you might actually get over all the angst.

Provide evidence that I have a "Beliefs cock block" mentality. Just because I tell my son what I believe does not mean that I am cock blocking anything. Stop making assumptions without sufficient evidence.

Quote:

But I can't at all see how a father of a child denigrating the mother for her beliefs constantly will do anything but cause harm in the future of the child.

Provide evidence that I denigrate her beliefs constantly. This is another lie that is blatant degradation of my character and again it is extremely disrespectful to me and such a strawman does not belong in these forums.

Quote:

The first words in describe his wife as a "lazy Christian" and if I'm mistaken I apologize but I do remember another thread of his where he basically spent the entire thread trashing his wife.

Lazy Christian is not meant as degrading. It is a term to describe an individual who basically does not practice their religion but still claims Christianity. I have never called her this. This is a forum where people understand those kinds of terms, and I feel comfortable using them because for the most part, the posters know exactly what I am talking about. Also, saying that I was "trashing my wife" is the type of thing that makes people's blood boil, just so you know.

Quote:

He put this out there and a previous example that I spoke of and to me, my widdle opinion, he seems to speak of his wife with a lot of disrespect.

Nope, I don't. Again provide evidence.

Quote:

And I do believe that the palpable disrespect with which he speaks of his wife is going to be much more damaging on his son's future that sharing two different religious views in the same house.

This is going off the deep end a bit here. Again I am extremely offended that you say I am speaking of my wife with "palpable disrespect".

Quote:

But his hostility seems to be what's the hingepin in all this.

What hostility? Where is it at? Post evidence. More degradation of my character here.

Quote:

Ok found the thread and it's funny it's basically the exact same thread as this one with people commenting about his tone towards his wife.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...=Quad4_72+wife

Ok, what about the thread? In that very thread I even explained that the way I posted was not the way the encounter actually went down, and I even acknowledged that it sounded a little arrogant and that is not what I meant.

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

I know the way it sounds from a message board it probably sounded like I was being arrogant. But I promise you, I was not. I definitely do not want to be one of those arrogant jerk atheists. The way I said things was very casual and very passive.

Originally Posted by truethat

I understand that Quad feels brainwashed but it's hugely disrespectful to tell a parent that they are doing this.

Never ONCE did I tell my wife that she was brainwashing our child. This is a flat out lie. It may even be on the fringe of breaking your membership agreement as it is incredibly offensive.

Quote:

Yawn with the strawman. I stated last year that the issue was respect and it's no surprise that she doesn't respect his views when he accused her of brainwashing her child.

Please link me to the post where I accused my wife of brainwashing our child. You are tracking that she is not viewing these posts correct? Yes I feel that him going to church a lot when I was deployed was brainwashing, but of course I never told her this.

Basically, truehat, all of your posts in this thread have been some of the most disrespectful I have ever encountered. I have never felt offended on a forum, because it is just the internet, but you have blatantly lied about me, my wife, and my family in a public fashion, openly degrading my character. To me, your posts seem on the border of being reported as they seem to be personal attacks. I don't know where all of this hostility towards me came from, but it is unwarranted and does not belong on these forums. I have never put another poster on ignore before, even the most VILE twoofers. But none of them have ever personally attacked my family, so this may be a first.

[Quad4_72]

Thank you to all of the individuals who saw through what truehat posted as lies. Being publicly degraded with lies is definitely not what I expected from this forum, so thank you for those of you who know better.

[Minoosh]

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

The year my son spent with my parents while I was deployed is what has him completely brainwashed. Even when I try and break the world down in the simplest form, telling him how not everything teachers tell him are correct, he won't have any of it. He likes to say "Well god is invisible which is why no one can see him". I mean how do you get in a rational discussion with a five year old?

I kind of wince, because I imagine this kid going into cognitive overload. He may be too young to appreciate the logical fallacy of begging the question. The idea that there are different religions, though, that's not so hard.

By now I hope you've had a rational discussion with his other caregivers, and have settled on a simple, honest, loving message you can agree on. Daddy doesn't pray, Grandma and Grandpa do and you all love him. Right?

Don't most kids start to argue with their parents sooner or later?

[Minoosh]

Daddy's not going to pray, he's just going to think really hard about how much he loves you.

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by Minoosh

I kind of wince, because I imagine this kid going into cognitive overload. He may be too young to appreciate the logical fallacy of begging the question. The idea that there are different religions, though, that's not so hard.

By now I hope you've had a rational discussion with his other caregivers, and have settled on a simple, honest, loving message you can agree on. Daddy doesn't pray, Grandma and Grandpa do and you all love him. Right?

Don't most kids start to argue with their parents sooner or later?

There will definitely not be any cognitive overload. I have only said very minimal to him on my beliefs. His caregivers are myself and my wife. He was only with my parents while I was deployed.

[truethat]

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

As far as raising my son, I am really not sure how to address the god issue especially if my wife insists. As other posters have said, I will definitely just have to hold off on that one until I can talk to my wife more. This was honestly the first time I had ever seen her sit down and pray with him before. Seeing him fold his hands together and repeat the prayers she said made me feel very uneasy. Kids that age are SO impressionable. Even though she doesn't know it, she is brainwashing him from a very early age. That is what leads people to later in life look at others in disgust when they find out that they don't believe in god. But like I said, I must talk to my wife first.

Even if you don't exactly say this to your wife if this is how you feel it is very likely that she knows this.

And I'm not trying to criticize you or put you down. You put this online twice about the same topic and your posts "to me" seem to have a disrespectful tone towards her beliefs. So she seems to be responding in kind.

That is probably at the heart of the matter as I've already stated.


And has been noted last year, your attitude in discussion towards her seems to have been the catalyst for her starting to pray with your son in the first place. So you might want to take a look at how you are coming across.

[Dunstan]

Originally Posted by truethat

Perhaps I took "lazy Christian" as more disrespectful than he intended it but it was a red flag to me.

Interesting. Because in the other thread you linked to, you wrote (regarding the OP's wife):

Quote:

Christians like her tend to be veeeeeeeeery lazy when it comes to faith.

[truethat]

Yes, I noticed that as well when I looked it up. It was amusing to me to see that.

[Minoosh]

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

There will definitely not be any cognitive overload. I have only said very minimal to him on my beliefs. His caregivers are myself and my wife. He was only with my parents while I was deployed.

My grandparents actually thought Sunday school was a sin. Maybe not a burn-in-hell-proposition but definitely on the wrong track.

My second post above is a way of saying, it's a possible answer if the bedtime prayers come up again. It sounds like you and your wife have it covered.

The "if I die before I wake" line was enough to make me ditch that particular prayer as a child. Counting my blessings at the end of the day is a technique I have used as an adult.

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by truethat

Even if you don't exactly say this to your wife if this is how you feel it is very likely that she knows this.

And I'm not trying to criticize you or put you down. You put this online twice about the same topic and your posts "to me" seem to have a disrespectful tone towards her beliefs. So she seems to be responding in kind.

That is probably at the heart of the matter as I've already stated.


And has been noted last year, your attitude in discussion towards her seems to have been the catalyst for her starting to pray with your son in the first place. So you might want to take a look at how you are coming across.

No, actually, I don't need to take a look at how I am coming across, as I KNOW how I am coming across (I am the one there, remember?). You are making assumptions that do not add up with what I have posted here. Everyone else in the thread gets it accept you. You have made me out to be some wife belittling monster.

ETA: These other thread is a different topic then this one, so please don't lie and say there are two threads about the same topic. You also still need to provide evidence that I am disrespectful towards my wife.

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by Dunstan

Interesting. Because in the other thread you linked to, you wrote (regarding the OP's wife):

Now that is VERY interesting right there. Lol at the hypocrisy.

[MarkCorrigan]

Oh good, TT is back to make totally invalid and nasty assumptions about someone then whine about how everyone else is misreading her and how she's clearly right.

So onto the OP: Dude, you're totally in the right here. While you do absolutely have to compromise in discussions like this, there's a big difference between "compromise" and "not actually be allowed to say anything." I can't say I'm a super marriage expert and goodness knows it might make things worse, but how about when you do have the talk with her, letting your wife see things from your point of view?

Maybe ask her how she would feel if, when your son asked the two of you a religious question, you stated your opinion and then attempted to force her to stay silent on the matter? She quite possibly doesn't even realise that's what she's doing. A lot of people can't actually see any situation from anyone else's perspective naturally.

[truethat]

You could admit that you did accuse your wife of brainwashing your child instead of dumping it on me.

Also I do agree that you know how you come across because you are there. Of course and as well it is often hard to convey how you really speak by writing online. (Believe me I'm well aware of that)

However based on the post last year you said she got upset after your conversation and it was then that she started praying with your son.

It may well be that she sees you as an incredible threat to his faith. I am assuming you are often deployed and then come back. Well imagine it from her perspective. Everything is coming along nicely then you come back for a while and try to undue everything she's done with your son, even your parents have done. Don't you think that if she feels you are a threat to her beliefs she's going to come on even stronger every time you come home?

My prediction last year seems pretty much like what happened.

[slingblade]

The inability to give up and shut up is strong in this one.

[truethat]

takes one to know one! :P

[tsig]

Originally Posted by truethat

Slingblade you know damn well when I'm wrong I admit it. And pretty quickly btw, unlike you waiting over a year to apologize to me.

He put this out there and a previous example that I spoke of and to me, my widdle opinion, he seems to speak of his wife with a lot of disrespect.

The question is how two different religious views can co parent. I have done so with my kids and it's worked out fine.

I do believe that sharing my perspective is helpful. And I do believe that the palpable disrespect with which he speaks of his wife is going to be much more damaging on his son's future that sharing two different religious views in the same house.

I know many families with differing religious views in the same house, Christian and Jewish, Catholic and Jewish, Baptist and Catholic, Atheist and Jewish, Muslim and Christian, Muslim and Atheist, Atheist and Buddhist, Buddhist and Muslim etc etc etc.

It's very rare in fact these days not to know someone with different religious views in the same house.

And that usually is not that big of a deal to children. What is a problem is when parents treat the other parent's views with derision and disrespect.

So get off my back.

Citation?

His wife disrespects his belief and you don't seem to have a problem with that.

[truethat]

Sure I do. I've mentioned already. What part of "when PARENTS (that means more than one so in a typical case there are two parents, the mom and the dad) treat the other parent's .....etc"


http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...83#post7883083

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by truethat

You could admit that you did accuse your wife of brainwashing your child instead of dumping it on me.

Also I do agree that you know how you come across because you are there. Of course and as well it is often hard to convey how you really speak by writing online. (Believe me I'm well aware of that)

However based on the post last year you said she got upset after your conversation and it was then that she started praying with your son.

It may well be that she sees you as an incredible threat to his faith. I am assuming you are often deployed and then come back. Well imagine it from her perspective. Everything is coming along nicely then you come back for a while and try to undue everything she's done with your son, even your parents have done. Don't you think that if she feels you are a threat to her beliefs she's going to come on even stronger every time you come home?

My prediction last year seems pretty much like what happened.

This is all complete insanity. Start providing evidence for your claims or stop making them. Again, you are the ONLY one making the outlandish claims about my character.

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Oh good, TT is back to make totally invalid and nasty assumptions about someone then whine about how everyone else is misreading her and how she's clearly right.

So onto the OP: Dude, you're totally in the right here. While you do absolutely have to compromise in discussions like this, there's a big difference between "compromise" and "not actually be allowed to say anything." I can't say I'm a super marriage expert and goodness knows it might make things worse, but how about when you do have the talk with her, letting your wife see things from your point of view?

Maybe ask her how she would feel if, when your son asked the two of you a religious question, you stated your opinion and then attempted to force her to stay silent on the matter? She quite possibly doesn't even realise that's what she's doing. A lot of people can't actually see any situation from anyone else's perspective naturally.

Thank you for the useful advice. Nice change of pace from the many derogatory posts TT has made about myself.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by truethat

Ok found the thread and it's funny it's basically the exact same thread as this one with people commenting about his tone towards his wife.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...=Quad4_72+wife

The Goldcountry I do not treat my ex husband as if he is "brainwashed" and trying to "brainwash" my kid.

That to me is very disrespectful. I understand that Quad feels brainwashed but it's hugely disrespectful to tell a parent that they are doing this. And it's clear he feels this way. If he does she's going to pick up on it.

It's same issue that he talked about last year. So obviously it's not to do with the religious beliefs.

I told my kids about all religious beliefs etc. But actually at such a young age it's not that big of a deal. The child has plenty of time to learn. This is not about the child or the religious beliefs IMO. It's about a new atheist being disrespectful to his believer wife.

Right that's why churches don't have youth studies.

[truethat]

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

This is all complete insanity. Start providing evidence for your claims or stop making them. Again, you are the ONLY one making the outlandish claims about my character.

I am not making outlandish claims about your character. I'm pointing out how you might be coming across.

Earlier you stated that you never said that your wife was brainwashing your child. Then I quoted you and you totally ignored it. Well I won't comment again because I see that you just want support.

However my comments were posted with the intention of giving advice.

Good luck to you.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

Thank you to all of the individuals who saw through what truehat posted as lies. Being publicly degraded with lies is definitely not what I expected from this forum, so thank you for those of you who know better.

Truethat is an "atheist" who never sees anything wrong with Christians but thinks that expressing disbelief is religious bashing so it probably wasn't anything personal.

[truethat]

That's not true. It's utterly ridiculous. LOL But it truly wasn't anything personal. I just don't get why people are so emotional about what they and other people believe. It's not that hard to understand that most people believe in God. They aren't crazy brainwashed evil people. They are just people. I'd rather focus my energies on people who corrupt or use this belief system to do harm.

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by truethat

I am not making outlandish claims about your character. I'm pointing out how you might be coming across.

Earlier you stated that you never said that your wife was brainwashing your child. Then I quoted you and you totally ignored it. Well I won't comment again because I see that you just want support.

However my comments were posted with the intention of giving advice.

Good luck to you.

What you have posted about me in this thread warrants an apology. If said apology is not given, that's fine. You will just be the first poster to have ever gone on my ignore list, on any forum I have ever been a part of.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by truethat

However my comments were posted with the intention of giving advice.

Good luck to you.

Like when you told me I deserved to be bullied?


No worries about the advice Quad, but I bear no liability if it ends up going horribly wrong. I bear all credit if it goes well.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by truethat

Yes, I noticed that as well when I looked it up. It was amusing to me to see that.

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

Now that is VERY interesting right there. Lol at the hypocrisy.

Just amusing.

[truethat]

I apologize for how you have interpreted my statements as I did not mean them that way.

To be clear I meant "It is obvious to me on here from things you posted that you do not respect your wife's beliefs at all. You are the one asking for advice so I can only address you. If she was posting I'd be telling her the same thing. It is very important to treat your spouse with respect even if you don't agree with his views. Not just religious but political and whatnot. When you don't respect the views it comes across very clearly to the spouse and also to the child. Down the line this will have far more of a negative impact than the issues at hand now."

So that is what I meant to say. If my way of saying this didn't come across (and I can concede that it may not as it's not the first time I've had this problem) I apologize very sincerely.

But that is really what I meant to say.


Also to MCorrigan I didn't say that but you took it that way. That's OT so revive the thread if you wish to continue your whining there.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by truethat

That's not true. It's utterly ridiculous. LOL But it truly wasn't anything personal. I just don't get why people are so emotional about what they and other people believe. It's not that hard to understand that most people believe in God. They aren't crazy brainwashed evil people. They are just people. I'd rather focus my energies on people who corrupt or use this belief system to do harm.

Like turning a son against his father?

[truethat]

really. LMAO ok let me let you atheist task force workers get down to solving that drama. Because I didn't get that at all from anything he posted.

[Paul2]

Time for a new thread on religious brainwashing!

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...59#post8248759

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by truethat

really. LMAO ok let me let you atheist task force workers get down to solving that drama. Because I didn't get that at all from anything he posted.

Yet you seem to be the only one.

Odd that isn't it?

[tsig]

Originally Posted by truethat

I apologize for how you have interpreted my statements as I did not mean them that way.

To be clear I meant "It is obvious to me on here from things you posted that you do not respect your wife's beliefs at all. You are the one asking for advice so I can only address you. If she was posting I'd be telling her the same thing. It is very important to treat your spouse with respect even if you don't agree with his views. Not just religious but political and whatnot. When you don't respect the views it comes across very clearly to the spouse and also to the child. Down the line this will have far more of a negative impact than the issues at hand now."

So that is what I meant to say. If my way of saying this didn't come across (and I can concede that it may not as it's not the first time I've had this problem) I apologize very sincerely.

But that is really what I meant to say.


Also to MCorrigan I didn't say that but you took it that way. That's OT so revive the thread if you wish to continue your whining there.

It wasn't obvious to the rest of us. You still are saying that religious belief automatically gets respect but the other view doesn't.

[truethat]

tsig I'm only going to try one more time.

When he stated that he believed that his wife was brainwashing his child I am not the only one that took it as disrespect.

In addition when she became outraged that he told his son his beliefs, I am not the only one that took it as disrespect.

In a marriage it is important for parents to respect the other parent's point of view. Not doing so will have a long term effect on the child. There are many parents that have more than one religion in the home, respecting the other's view is key.

If this still doesn't make sense to you then I give up.


Note, if she was here asking for advice I'd be giving her the exact same advice. The comments were directed towards him since he is the one who is here.

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by truethat

I apologize for how you have interpreted my statements as I did not mean them that way.

To be clear I meant "It is obvious to me on here from things you posted that you do not respect your wife's beliefs at all. You are the one asking for advice so I can only address you. If she was posting I'd be telling her the same thing. It is very important to treat your spouse with respect even if you don't agree with his views. Not just religious but political and whatnot. When you don't respect the views it comes across very clearly to the spouse and also to the child. Down the line this will have far more of a negative impact than the issues at hand now."

So that is what I meant to say. If my way of saying this didn't come across (and I can concede that it may not as it's not the first time I've had this problem) I apologize very sincerely.

But that is really what I meant to say.


Also to MCorrigan I didn't say that but you took it that way. That's OT so revive the thread if you wish to continue your whining there.

And here you have another poster offended by what you have said. I accept your apology, just for the fact that you simply don't understand how you come across to people. I have met people with your personality type before, and it is a rare one. You think you are correct about everything and that everyone also agrees with your point of view. If someone is offended, you automatically think it is that persons fault, not yours. You just simply don't know any better for lack of a better way to put it. You may mean well, but come across as completely intolerable. Others on here feel the same way as I. Perhaps one day you will realize that the things you say come across as offensive, but it's obvious that that day is not today. Regardless, apology accepted.

[TheGoldcountry]

Originally Posted by truethat

I just don't get why people are so emotional about what they and other people believe.

Because when family is involved, you can't just ignore what they believe, not if you care about them and love them. My sister and I have different feelings about the matter, and we accept that. But that is as adults, and after years of discussion. It's not that simple with children, despite your blithe objections that they will learn on their own.

[truethat]

really? You and everyone on this site basically had to learn on their own. You weren't downloaded information and much of what you were taught you challenged. If you raise an intelligent child it should be a non issue.