Is it wrong to tell a child that god doesn't exist? - Page 7

truethat · 1st May 2012, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

And here you have another poster offended by what you have said. I accept your apology, just for the fact that you simply don't understand how you come across to people. I have met people with your personality type before, and it is a rare one. You think you are correct about everything and that everyone also agrees with your point of view. If someone is offended, you automatically think it is that persons fault, not yours. You just simply don't know any better for lack of a better way to put it. You may mean well, but come across as completely intolerable. Others on here feel the same way as I. Perhaps one day you will realize that the things you say come across as offensive, but it's obvious that that day is not today. Regardless, apology accepted.

Not really I'm an INTP and I just don't get emotional about things the way other people do. So if I say something it's purely logical.

And btw most people in real life adore me. Believe it or not. I'm quite compassionate. I just don't equate online message boards with "real life" and tend to be more blunt.

One thing in case we cross paths again, I definitely do not think I'm always right. I often will argue the alternative view or play devils advocate and that causes confusion among some people.

But I'm very willing to admit that I'm wrong or change my mind. I've just got a gaggle of stalkers on this site who feel wronged and get kicks out of trying to pull a pile on.

TheGoldcountry · 1st May 2012, 06:04 PM

really? so if your spouse suddenly decided to indoctrinate your children with belief in the Gods of Olympus, you would voice no objections, putting faith in the cognitive skills you had taught your children?

truethat · 1st May 2012, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry

really? so if your spouse suddenly decided to indoctrinate your children with belief in the Gods of Olympus, you would voice no objections, putting faith in the cognitive skills you had taught your children?

Yep.

And actually I can prove it. LOL He did worse than that. He tried to convince them about Billy Meiers. My kids saw right through it.
That's a tough one for me to be respectful of. Grrr.

TheGoldcountry · 1st May 2012, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by truethat

Not really I'm an INTP and I just don't get emotional about things the way other people do. So if I say something it's purely logical.

And btw most people in real life adore me. Believe it or not. I'm quite compassionate. I just don't equate online message boards with "real life" and tend to be more blunt.

One thing in case we cross paths again, I definitely do not think I'm always right. I often will argue the alternative view or play devils advocate and that causes confusion among some people.

But I'm very willing to admit that I'm wrong or change my mind. I've just got a gaggle of stalkers on this site who feel wronged and get kicks out of trying to pull a pile on.

I agree with not equating message boards with real life.

You have never demonstrated (in my experience) that you never think you're wrong (I stand ready to be corrected, so don't be angry)

I've never seen you change your mind, even in the face of logic, which you proclaim to hold dear.

I don't get kicks out of piling on you. Every word I say is sincere. I hope yours are too, otherwise I would feel used.

ETA: This is on point, btw. You have proclaimed your passion for equal time regarding religious beliefs taught to children, but I would sincerely like an example when you told your child a private belief that didn't coincide with that of your spouse. (if you decline, I understand, that is a private issue)

truethat · 1st May 2012, 06:15 PM

No that's not the case although I'm probably very unusual. But my kids have always lived with diversity in their lives and it's not a big deal at all. I don't see what the big frickin' deal is with everyone else, to be honest, but then again I live in Brooklyn NY which is pretty diverse. I imagine it would be harder in the south.

tsig · 1st May 2012, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by truethat

Not really I'm an INTP and I just don't get emotional about things the way other people do. So if I say something it's purely logical.

And btw most people in real life adore me. Believe it or not. I'm quite compassionate. I just don't equate online message boards with "real life" and tend to be more blunt.

One thing in case we cross paths again, I definitely do not think I'm always right. I often will argue the alternative view or play devils advocate and that causes confusion among some people.

But I'm very willing to admit that I'm wrong or change my mind. I've just got a gaggle of stalkers on this site who feel wronged and get kicks out of trying to pull a pile on.

How can you ever be wrong if everything you say is perfectly logical?

truethat · 1st May 2012, 06:16 PM

This thread is not about ME. Could you all post on my PM page or something because this is getting rude to the OP.

Ex tsig, I used to not understand scientific method very well and I have changed my mind and learned a great deal. There are many things over time I've changed my mind on. I used to not understand transgender issues etc. I have no problem at all changing my mind. But only for logical reasons, not emotional ones.

TheGoldcountry · 1st May 2012, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

How can you ever be wrong if everything you say is perfectly logical?

In her defense, you can have logic based on unsound facts or principles. (but I don't think that's what she meant)

TheGoldcountry · 1st May 2012, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by truethat

This thread is not about ME. Could you all post on my PM page or something because this is getting rude to the OP.

Can you (or anyone here) imagine a scenario where you would feel compelled to tell your children something you held dear, and knew in your heart and mind to be true, EVEN WHEN YOU KNEW YOUR SPOUSE MIGHT DISAPPROVE?

Quad4_72 · 1st May 2012, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by truethat

This thread is not about ME. Could you all post on my PM page or something because this is getting rude to the OP.

Ex tsig, I used to not understand scientific method very well and I have changed my mind and learned a great deal. There are many things over time I've changed my mind on. I used to not understand transgender issues etc. I have no problem at all changing my mind. But only for logical reasons, not emotional ones.

No, what was rude to the OP was making false accusations towards the OP, which in fact were not based on logic which you claim is what you always use. You really should read that long post I made about you closely, as I outlined pretty well the very disrespectful things you said about me that were not in in fact based on logic or anything that I have said.

truethat · 1st May 2012, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry

Can you (or anyone here) imagine a scenario where you would feel compelled to tell your children something you held dear, and knew in your heart and mind to be true, EVEN WHEN YOU KNEW YOUR SPOUSE MIGHT DISAPPROVE?

My spouse can disapprove up the wazooo what the heck does that have to do with anything. I don't need people to agree with me to do my thing. I don't need him to believe that Billy Miere's is a loon. Live and let live.

And Quad, part of why I tend to not GAF is that I apologized as you asked, very sincerely and you are still going on about it. So this is why I usually don't care.

But if you don't mind the derail to your thread then I will continue.

TheGoldcountry · 1st May 2012, 06:28 PM

You didn't answer my question, truethat, but I'm used to it by now.

truethat · 1st May 2012, 06:31 PM

what question, I thought I did. You stated that he didn't approve and I said, who cares what he thinks. well perhaps I've not answered clearly.

I have regularly told my kids things that their father is in complete disagreement with. Many many many many times. So to me it's a no brainer. Ex we eat bacon, they don't. He's Muslim and has a bias against Israel, don't give a damn if he does, I guess it comes down to not teaching my kids MY VIEWS but sharing whatever is out there with them and exposing them to situations that are about world views and diversity rather than trying to make sure my kid agrees with me.

I think I mentioned that earlier in the thread that a lot of parents are about teaching their kids their views rather than being willing to allow their kids to have their own views. But seriously I guess I'm lazy that's just way too much work for me.

tsig · 1st May 2012, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by truethat

Not really I'm an INTP and I just don't get emotional about things the way other people do. So if I say something it's purely logical.

And btw most people in real life adore me. Believe it or not. I'm quite compassionate. I just don't equate online message boards with "real life" and tend to be more blunt.

One thing in case we cross paths again, I definitely do not think I'm always right. I often will argue the alternative view or play devils advocate and that causes confusion among some people.

But I'm very willing to admit that I'm wrong or change my mind. I've just got a gaggle of stalkers on this site who feel wronged and get kicks out of trying to pull a pile on.

Originally Posted by truethat

My spouse can disapprove up the wazooo what the heck does that have to do with anything. I don't need people to agree with me to do my thing. I don't need him to believe that Billy Miere's is a loon. Live and let live.

And Quad, part of why I tend to not GAF is that I apologized as you asked, very sincerely and you are still going on about it. So this is why I usually don't care.

But if you don't mind the derail to your thread then I will continue.

Compassionately non caring?

Your dismissal of fellow posters as not human is not compassionate.

truethat · 1st May 2012, 06:35 PM

tsig you and your drama. LMAO I dismissed who as "not human" my you make me chuckle. Do you even realize how dramatic your posts are.

slingblade · 1st May 2012, 06:37 PM

I don't get people who are not emotional. They're dead inside.

truethat · 1st May 2012, 06:40 PM

Not really. I think there are times to get emotional and times not. In fact if you read some of my writing I think it would blow your mind how touching it could be. But when having a discussion emotions are like lies to me. Especially on a skeptic site. I've never understood the need to bring emotion into solving a problem. Emotion creates a real bias. In most cases.

Isn't this thread a good example of this? Two people warring over how they feel and what they believe and being emotionally concerned about their child and what he will believe.

Facts, in this day and age it really doesn't matter what either of them teach him any way because statistics show that more and more people do not believe the faith in which they are raised. So in the future the kid is probably not going to believe in what either of them expose him to.

The Norseman · 1st May 2012, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by truethat

My spouse can disapprove up the wazooo what the heck does that have to do with anything. I don't need people to agree with me to do my thing. I don't need him to believe that Billy Miere's is a loon. Live and let live.

And Quad, part of why I tend to not GAF is that I apologized as you asked, very sincerely and you are still going on about it. So this is why I usually don't care.

But if you don't mind the derail to your thread then I will continue.

Except we're not talking about a simple case of spousal disagreement. We're talking about a spousal disagreement with his wife apparently willing to withhold affection or other 'punishments' because of her disagreement of his viewpoints.

I wonder if it's enough to make the marriage untenable for her, at least; I'd be sorry to hear of it, but after having to file for divorce myself, I can see that it's possibly the better choice to make. I'm taking Quad's position here, not because it's a "guys vs. gals" thing, but because he seems much more open-minded than she does.

If the roles were reversed, I'd be advising more acceptance and open-mindedness on his behalf.

truethat · 1st May 2012, 07:00 PM

Well she did tell him she wished she knew he was atheist before she married him. So it seems like a really big deal to her. If she can't respect his views then divorce might be the better option.

The Norseman · 1st May 2012, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by truethat

Well she did tell him she wished she knew he was atheist before she married him. So it seems like a really big deal to her. If she can't respect his views then divorce might be the better option.

He wasn't an atheist when/before they married; he achieved enlightenment (my words) afterward.

Since that sort of thing isn't probably common, it can be a dealbreaker. Anecdotally, my divorce wasn't spurred by anything like that, but it still took me about six months before the thought became conscious and it took me over a year afterward to get over the guilt I felt for doing so, even though everyone who knew our situation had supported me in the decision.

In other words, it was the hardest thing I ever did in my entire life, but it was the best for both of us. The only issue is that she and I never had kids together.

TheGoldcountry · 1st May 2012, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by truethat

Not really. I think there are times to get emotional and times not. In fact if you read some of my writing I think it would blow your mind how touching it could be. But when having a discussion emotions are like lies to me. Especially on a skeptic site. I've never understood the need to bring emotion into solving a problem. Emotion creates a real bias. In most cases.

Isn't this thread a good example of this? Two people warring over how they feel and what they believe and being emotionally concerned about their child and what he will believe.

Facts, in this day and age it really doesn't matter what either of them teach him any way because statistics show that more and more people do not believe the faith in which they are raised. So in the future the kid is probably not going to believe in what either of them expose him to.

truethat, I am now trying to understand your point of view. I was obsessed with my own, I admit. But you are not being logical. you are shifting your main point, depending on whom to which you are responding. Perhaps we should all take a breather? It's a difficult subject, and in the end I don't think we have helped quad.

truethat · 1st May 2012, 08:01 PM

I think you should start a new thread if you want to discuss what you brought up because this thread is specific to Quad's experience.

TheGoldcountry · 1st May 2012, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by truethat

Well she did tell him she wished she knew he was atheist before she married him. So it seems like a really big deal to her. If she can't respect his views then divorce might be the better option.

truethat, earlier you said that the animosity and argumentative attitude between the parents was the most important issue here. I'm not sure you're wrong, but quad wants a suggestion, not an end to his marriage

TheGoldcountry · 1st May 2012, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by truethat

I think you should start a new thread if you want to discuss what you brought up because this thread is specific to Quad's experience.

quad's experience is very close to home with me. the two most loved people in my life are religious, I am not. not equal to quad, but close. how do I express my views without betraying the trust of another? (and you have still never answered my question)

truethat · 1st May 2012, 08:12 PM

I guess I don't understand your question. Why would you expressing your views have anything to do with betraying the trust of another. I'm not understanding what you mean?

Btw I started another thread about what I thought you were saying, but apparently that wasn't it.

TheGoldcountry · 1st May 2012, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by truethat

I guess I don't understand your question. Why would you expressing your views have anything to do with betraying the trust of another. I'm not understanding what you mean?

Btw I started another thread about what I thought you were saying, but apparently that wasn't it.

I am very close to my sister. I don't "push" too hard with her kids, but they are both adults now. Would I be betraying my sister by simply stating what I think?

What is the link? I went off on a tangent, but don't just dismiss me. send a PM

Caper · 1st May 2012, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by llwyd

I had this coming bit unexpectedly a couple of weeks ago as we haven't really talked about these issues to our 5 year old, but he came suddenly with this during our Sunday walk: "Daddy, is Grandfather in heaven with God?" (My father passed away a year before our son was born.) I answered that I hope so, and that some people believe that after you die you go to heaven, but some don't. He then asked what I believe, and I said that I don't really know (but didn't mention that I think it's highly unlikely, unfortunately). I wondered who had talked to him about God and heaven, probably his Grandmother. Children are strange people though, you never know what's going on in those little heads...

That's my favorite answer. My kid is under 1... I think that's what I'll tell him.... actually... that's what I hope too.

truethat · 1st May 2012, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry

I am very close to my sister. I don't "push" too hard with her kids, but they are both adults now. Would I be betraying my sister by simply stating what I think?

It's sad to me that you even ask that question. I guess I'm biased that our family is the way it is. Why in the world would stating your beliefs be a betrayal of your sister. My sister is religious, my other sister is Wiccan and my other sister is Atheist. We all have our views. But I remember when my one Wiccan sister didn't want to celebrate Christmas any more but felt so leery about letting us all know. It shocked me that she would care.

When it comes to children I can understand that people get scared about what their kids are exposed to. But between you and your sister you should definitely tell her. And if they are adults then it's fine. If she loves you she will probably treat you as sort of a Prodigal son on a journey that will eventually find your way back to God. In some way this has been a helpful idea to support when I'm dealing with very religious friends.

Even though I know it's total BS if I care about the person it allows me to share my observations and ideas with them without them feeling like I'm trying to convert them and without me getting their need to debate like crazy.

The other major difference is that I'm pretty well versed in the Bible and have done my graduate thesis on the OT and even go into seminary as an atheist (don't know if you know) and so I'm much more prepared to discuss the bible and religion than they usually are, so I might not have to contend with them throwing lots of crap in my direction.

It's very important to be honest about how you feel about yourself, how you feel about YOUR BELIEFS, but far too many ******** out there seem to think that's also a right be honest about how you feel about THEM and THEIR BELIEFS and this usually has disastrous results.

Hope that answers your question.

TheGoldcountry · 1st May 2012, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by truethat

It's sad to me that you even ask that question. I guess I'm biased that our family is the way it is.
Hope that answers your question.

What does that mean?

truethat · 1st May 2012, 08:35 PM

It means your question doesn't even register to me because none of us in my family have the same religious beliefs, it would never even occur to me that this was a problem.

Quad4_72 · 2nd May 2012, 04:35 AM

Originally Posted by truethat

Well she did tell him she wished she knew he was atheist before she married him. So it seems like a really big deal to her. If she can't respect his views then divorce might be the better option.

Divorce is definitely not anywhere in the mix of options. The disagreement has not came close to anything like that. When I first told her I didn't believe in god, she was simply surprised by it and said what she did because it came as a shock. I was also surprised by her reaction because before then I was never a practicing christian and I always sort of told her I don't really do religion anymore. I guess it had never clicked in her mind that I could possibly not believe in god at some point. Since then, she has accepted what I believe, except when it comes to voicing my beliefs to our children.

IDB87 · 2nd May 2012, 07:21 AM

Quad,

Any update on this situation (apologies, I may have missed it if you posted ITT)? Have you spoken to your wife, or had any dialogue about it outside of this forum?

*ETA

Looks like I just missed it. So, it seems you're at an impasse with regards to what you specifically tell your own son? Yikes. Do you think it's possible to "wear her down", so to speak? The lack of compromise on her end is a bit disturbing.

Quad4_72 · 2nd May 2012, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by IDB87

Quad,

Any update on this situation (apologies, I may have missed it if you posted ITT)? Have you spoken to your wife, or had any dialogue about it outside of this forum?

*ETA

Looks like I just missed it. So, it seems you're at an impasse with regards to what you specifically tell your own son? Yikes. Do you think it's possible to "wear her down", so to speak? The lack of compromise on her end is a bit disturbing.

We still have not had an actual sit down about the subject. The only other run in since the OP was when she did the whole "Talk to the hand" thing when my son brought up a religious subject.

One thing that was encouraging to me though was yesterday my son came up and asked me who made the world and I told him that actually the best theory we have on the matter is the big bang theory and I gave him a watered down version of that and how the Earth was formed. He seemed excited about it then smiled and ran off somewhere. So I think that is a good sign.

TheGoldcountry · 2nd May 2012, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

We still have not had an actual sit down about the subject. The only other run in since the OP was when she did the whole "Talk to the hand" thing when my son brought up a religious subject.

One thing that was encouraging to me though was yesterday my son came up and asked me who made the world and I told him that actually the best theory we have on the matter is the big bang theory and I gave him a watered down version of that and how the Earth was formed. He seemed excited about it then smiled and ran off somewhere. So I think that is a good sign.

Good. That sincerely makes me happy. But, if he comes back and has heavy questions, what will you do then?

Quad4_72 · 2nd May 2012, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry

Good. That sincerely makes me happy. But, if he comes back and has heavy questions, what will you do then?

I will tell him exactly what I believe, as I have always done.

godless dave · 2nd May 2012, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by truethat

and godless dave you must not have kids if you don't think kids will pick up on this kind of thing without "reading about it on a message board."

What kind of thing? That he is sometimes annoyed with his spouse? That describes 100% of parents.

godless dave · 2nd May 2012, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by truethat

The Goldcountry I do not treat my ex husband as if he is "brainwashed" and trying to "brainwash" my kid.

That to me is very disrespectful. I understand that Quad feels brainwashed but it's hugely disrespectful to tell a parent that they are doing this.

You have some funny ideas about respect. "Respect" does not mean "never say anything bad about anybody".

ratcat · 3rd May 2012, 03:39 PM

I admit I have not read the entire thread, but quite a lot of it. Personally I always asked my kids questions. Does praying make you feel better? Does God answer you? Did you know there are lots of different religions? And I never hesitated to say "I don't know" and "I don't think anyone else does either" when asked questions about the meaning of life, what happens when we die etc.

Rasmus · 3rd May 2012, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by ratcat

I admit I have not read the entire thread, but quite a lot of it. Personally I always asked my kids questions. Does praying make you feel better? Does God answer you? Did you know there are lots of different religions? And I never hesitated to say "I don't know" and "I don't think anyone else does either" when asked questions about the meaning of life, what happens when we die etc.

When you die, you become worm food.

There, now you know, too.

ratcat · 3rd May 2012, 04:21 PM

I'm not sure that worms will successfully infiltrate the burial vault and continue into the casket to get at my presumably unappetizing embalmed body, but I understand your point; most here feel that death is the end to all consciousness. I do too. I would still prefer an "I don't know" to this question from a child when considering the other options of a heaven fairy tale, or a pretty scary lights out answer. Did you have any ideas on the meaning of life question? Or the simple "why are we here?" Remember you're talking to a child here.

1st May 2012, 06:03 PM	#241
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	Originally Posted by Quad4_72 And here you have another poster offended by what you have said. I accept your apology, just for the fact that you simply don't understand how you come across to people. I have met people with your personality type before, and it is a rare one. You think you are correct about everything and that everyone also agrees with your point of view. If someone is offended, you automatically think it is that persons fault, not yours. You just simply don't know any better for lack of a better way to put it. You may mean well, but come across as completely intolerable. Others on here feel the same way as I. Perhaps one day you will realize that the things you say come across as offensive, but it's obvious that that day is not today. Regardless, apology accepted. Not really I'm an INTP and I just don't get emotional about things the way other people do. So if I say something it's purely logical. And btw most people in real life adore me. Believe it or not. I'm quite compassionate. I just don't equate online message boards with "real life" and tend to be more blunt. One thing in case we cross paths again, I definitely do not think I'm always right. I often will argue the alternative view or play devils advocate and that causes confusion among some people. But I'm very willing to admit that I'm wrong or change my mind. I've just got a gaggle of stalkers on this site who feel wronged and get kicks out of trying to pull a pile on.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	__________________ “Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain

1st May 2012, 06:04 PM	#242
TheGoldcountry Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1,530	really? so if your spouse suddenly decided to indoctrinate your children with belief in the Gods of Olympus, you would voice no objections, putting faith in the cognitive skills you had taught your children?
	__________________ Not exactly, I'm talking about something I don't know about, if its there then it is what I am talking about and thats not nothing. -punshhh I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten

1st May 2012, 06:06 PM	#243
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry really? so if your spouse suddenly decided to indoctrinate your children with belief in the Gods of Olympus, you would voice no objections, putting faith in the cognitive skills you had taught your children? Yep. And actually I can prove it. LOL He did worse than that. He tried to convince them about Billy Meiers. My kids saw right through it. That's a tough one for me to be respectful of. Grrr.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	__________________ “Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain Last edited by truethat; 1st May 2012 at 06:08 PM.

1st May 2012, 06:09 PM	#244
TheGoldcountry Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1,530	Originally Posted by truethat Not really I'm an INTP and I just don't get emotional about things the way other people do. So if I say something it's purely logical. And btw most people in real life adore me. Believe it or not. I'm quite compassionate. I just don't equate online message boards with "real life" and tend to be more blunt. One thing in case we cross paths again, I definitely do not think I'm always right. I often will argue the alternative view or play devils advocate and that causes confusion among some people. But I'm very willing to admit that I'm wrong or change my mind. I've just got a gaggle of stalkers on this site who feel wronged and get kicks out of trying to pull a pile on. I agree with not equating message boards with real life. You have never demonstrated (in my experience) that you never think you're wrong (I stand ready to be corrected, so don't be angry) I've never seen you change your mind, even in the face of logic, which you proclaim to hold dear. I don't get kicks out of piling on you. Every word I say is sincere. I hope yours are too, otherwise I would feel used. ETA: This is on point, btw. You have proclaimed your passion for equal time regarding religious beliefs taught to children, but I would sincerely like an example when you told your child a private belief that didn't coincide with that of your spouse. (if you decline, I understand, that is a private issue)
	__________________ Not exactly, I'm talking about something I don't know about, if its there then it is what I am talking about and thats not nothing. -punshhh I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten Last edited by TheGoldcountry; 1st May 2012 at 06:13 PM.

1st May 2012, 06:15 PM	#245
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	No that's not the case although I'm probably very unusual. But my kids have always lived with diversity in their lives and it's not a big deal at all. I don't see what the big frickin' deal is with everyone else, to be honest, but then again I live in Brooklyn NY which is pretty diverse. I imagine it would be harder in the south.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	__________________ “Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain

1st May 2012, 06:15 PM	#246
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,700	Originally Posted by truethat Not really I'm an INTP and I just don't get emotional about things the way other people do. So if I say something it's purely logical. And btw most people in real life adore me. Believe it or not. I'm quite compassionate. I just don't equate online message boards with "real life" and tend to be more blunt. One thing in case we cross paths again, I definitely do not think I'm always right. I often will argue the alternative view or play devils advocate and that causes confusion among some people. But I'm very willing to admit that I'm wrong or change my mind. I've just got a gaggle of stalkers on this site who feel wronged and get kicks out of trying to pull a pile on. How can you ever be wrong if everything you say is perfectly logical?

1st May 2012, 06:16 PM	#247
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	This thread is not about ME. Could you all post on my PM page or something because this is getting rude to the OP. Ex tsig, I used to not understand scientific method very well and I have changed my mind and learned a great deal. There are many things over time I've changed my mind on. I used to not understand transgender issues etc. I have no problem at all changing my mind. But only for logical reasons, not emotional ones.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	__________________ “Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain Last edited by truethat; 1st May 2012 at 06:18 PM.

1st May 2012, 06:17 PM	#248
TheGoldcountry Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1,530	Originally Posted by tsig How can you ever be wrong if everything you say is perfectly logical? In her defense, you can have logic based on unsound facts or principles. (but I don't think that's what she meant)
	__________________ Not exactly, I'm talking about something I don't know about, if its there then it is what I am talking about and thats not nothing. -punshhh I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten

1st May 2012, 06:19 PM	#249
TheGoldcountry Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1,530	Originally Posted by truethat This thread is not about ME. Could you all post on my PM page or something because this is getting rude to the OP. Can you (or anyone here) imagine a scenario where you would feel compelled to tell your children something you held dear, and knew in your heart and mind to be true, EVEN WHEN YOU KNEW YOUR SPOUSE MIGHT DISAPPROVE?
	__________________ Not exactly, I'm talking about something I don't know about, if its there then it is what I am talking about and thats not nothing. -punshhh I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten

1st May 2012, 06:20 PM	#250
Quad4_72 AI-EE-YAH! Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: USA Posts: 5,830	Originally Posted by truethat This thread is not about ME. Could you all post on my PM page or something because this is getting rude to the OP. Ex tsig, I used to not understand scientific method very well and I have changed my mind and learned a great deal. There are many things over time I've changed my mind on. I used to not understand transgender issues etc. I have no problem at all changing my mind. But only for logical reasons, not emotional ones. No, what was rude to the OP was making false accusations towards the OP, which in fact were not based on logic which you claim is what you always use. You really should read that long post I made about you closely, as I outlined pretty well the very disrespectful things you said about me that were not in in fact based on logic or anything that I have said.
	__________________ Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken

1st May 2012, 06:24 PM	#251
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry Can you (or anyone here) imagine a scenario where you would feel compelled to tell your children something you held dear, and knew in your heart and mind to be true, EVEN WHEN YOU KNEW YOUR SPOUSE MIGHT DISAPPROVE? My spouse can disapprove up the wazooo what the heck does that have to do with anything. I don't need people to agree with me to do my thing. I don't need him to believe that Billy Miere's is a loon. Live and let live. And Quad, part of why I tend to not GAF is that I apologized as you asked, very sincerely and you are still going on about it. So this is why I usually don't care. But if you don't mind the derail to your thread then I will continue.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	__________________ “Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain

1st May 2012, 06:28 PM	#252
TheGoldcountry Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1,530	You didn't answer my question, truethat, but I'm used to it by now.
	__________________ Not exactly, I'm talking about something I don't know about, if its there then it is what I am talking about and thats not nothing. -punshhh I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten

1st May 2012, 06:31 PM	#253
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	what question, I thought I did. You stated that he didn't approve and I said, who cares what he thinks. well perhaps I've not answered clearly. I have regularly told my kids things that their father is in complete disagreement with. Many many many many times. So to me it's a no brainer. Ex we eat bacon, they don't. He's Muslim and has a bias against Israel, don't give a damn if he does, I guess it comes down to not teaching my kids MY VIEWS but sharing whatever is out there with them and exposing them to situations that are about world views and diversity rather than trying to make sure my kid agrees with me. I think I mentioned that earlier in the thread that a lot of parents are about teaching their kids their views rather than being willing to allow their kids to have their own views. But seriously I guess I'm lazy that's just way too much work for me.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	__________________ “Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain Last edited by truethat; 1st May 2012 at 06:35 PM.

1st May 2012, 06:34 PM	#254
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,700	Originally Posted by truethat Not really I'm an INTP and I just don't get emotional about things the way other people do. So if I say something it's purely logical. And btw most people in real life adore me. Believe it or not. I'm quite compassionate. I just don't equate online message boards with "real life" and tend to be more blunt. One thing in case we cross paths again, I definitely do not think I'm always right. I often will argue the alternative view or play devils advocate and that causes confusion among some people. But I'm very willing to admit that I'm wrong or change my mind. I've just got a gaggle of stalkers on this site who feel wronged and get kicks out of trying to pull a pile on. Originally Posted by truethat My spouse can disapprove up the wazooo what the heck does that have to do with anything. I don't need people to agree with me to do my thing. I don't need him to believe that Billy Miere's is a loon. Live and let live. And Quad, part of why I tend to not GAF is that I apologized as you asked, very sincerely and you are still going on about it. So this is why I usually don't care. But if you don't mind the derail to your thread then I will continue. Compassionately non caring? Your dismissal of fellow posters as not human is not compassionate.

1st May 2012, 06:35 PM	#255
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	tsig you and your drama. LMAO I dismissed who as "not human" my you make me chuckle. Do you even realize how dramatic your posts are.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	__________________ “Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain

1st May 2012, 06:37 PM	#256
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	I don't get people who are not emotional. They're dead inside.
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642

1st May 2012, 06:40 PM	#257
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	Not really. I think there are times to get emotional and times not. In fact if you read some of my writing I think it would blow your mind how touching it could be. But when having a discussion emotions are like lies to me. Especially on a skeptic site. I've never understood the need to bring emotion into solving a problem. Emotion creates a real bias. In most cases. Isn't this thread a good example of this? Two people warring over how they feel and what they believe and being emotionally concerned about their child and what he will believe. Facts, in this day and age it really doesn't matter what either of them teach him any way because statistics show that more and more people do not believe the faith in which they are raised. So in the future the kid is probably not going to believe in what either of them expose him to.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	__________________ “Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain Last edited by truethat; 1st May 2012 at 06:46 PM.

1st May 2012, 06:51 PM	#258
The Norseman I Void Warranties Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: The Treasure Valley Posts: 3,236	Originally Posted by truethat My spouse can disapprove up the wazooo what the heck does that have to do with anything. I don't need people to agree with me to do my thing. I don't need him to believe that Billy Miere's is a loon. Live and let live. And Quad, part of why I tend to not GAF is that I apologized as you asked, very sincerely and you are still going on about it. So this is why I usually don't care. But if you don't mind the derail to your thread then I will continue. Except we're not talking about a simple case of spousal disagreement. We're talking about a spousal disagreement with his wife apparently willing to withhold affection or other 'punishments' because of her disagreement of his viewpoints. I wonder if it's enough to make the marriage untenable for her, at least; I'd be sorry to hear of it, but after having to file for divorce myself, I can see that it's possibly the better choice to make. I'm taking Quad's position here, not because it's a "guys vs. gals" thing, but because he seems much more open-minded than she does. If the roles were reversed, I'd be advising more acceptance and open-mindedness on his behalf.
	__________________ "I have always thought that a wild animal never looks so well as when some obstacle of pronounced durability is between us." "Sticking the flounce is the hardest move in forum gymnastics." -tsig

1st May 2012, 07:00 PM	#259
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	Well she did tell him she wished she knew he was atheist before she married him. So it seems like a really big deal to her. If she can't respect his views then divorce might be the better option.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	__________________ “Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain

1st May 2012, 07:12 PM	#260
The Norseman I Void Warranties Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: The Treasure Valley Posts: 3,236	Originally Posted by truethat Well she did tell him she wished she knew he was atheist before she married him. So it seems like a really big deal to her. If she can't respect his views then divorce might be the better option. He wasn't an atheist when/before they married; he achieved enlightenment (my words) afterward. Since that sort of thing isn't probably common, it can be a dealbreaker. Anecdotally, my divorce wasn't spurred by anything like that, but it still took me about six months before the thought became conscious and it took me over a year afterward to get over the guilt I felt for doing so, even though everyone who knew our situation had supported me in the decision. In other words, it was the hardest thing I ever did in my entire life, but it was the best for both of us. The only issue is that she and I never had kids together.
	__________________ "I have always thought that a wild animal never looks so well as when some obstacle of pronounced durability is between us." "Sticking the flounce is the hardest move in forum gymnastics." -tsig

1st May 2012, 07:59 PM	#261
TheGoldcountry Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1,530	Originally Posted by truethat Not really. I think there are times to get emotional and times not. In fact if you read some of my writing I think it would blow your mind how touching it could be. But when having a discussion emotions are like lies to me. Especially on a skeptic site. I've never understood the need to bring emotion into solving a problem. Emotion creates a real bias. In most cases. Isn't this thread a good example of this? Two people warring over how they feel and what they believe and being emotionally concerned about their child and what he will believe. Facts, in this day and age it really doesn't matter what either of them teach him any way because statistics show that more and more people do not believe the faith in which they are raised. So in the future the kid is probably not going to believe in what either of them expose him to. truethat, I am now trying to understand your point of view. I was obsessed with my own, I admit. But you are not being logical. you are shifting your main point, depending on whom to which you are responding. Perhaps we should all take a breather? It's a difficult subject, and in the end I don't think we have helped quad.
	__________________ Not exactly, I'm talking about something I don't know about, if its there then it is what I am talking about and thats not nothing. -punshhh I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten

1st May 2012, 08:01 PM	#262
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	I think you should start a new thread if you want to discuss what you brought up because this thread is specific to Quad's experience.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	__________________ “Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain

1st May 2012, 08:02 PM	#263
TheGoldcountry Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1,530	Originally Posted by truethat Well she did tell him she wished she knew he was atheist before she married him. So it seems like a really big deal to her. If she can't respect his views then divorce might be the better option. truethat, earlier you said that the animosity and argumentative attitude between the parents was the most important issue here. I'm not sure you're wrong, but quad wants a suggestion, not an end to his marriage
	__________________ Not exactly, I'm talking about something I don't know about, if its there then it is what I am talking about and thats not nothing. -punshhh I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten

1st May 2012, 08:05 PM	#264
TheGoldcountry Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1,530	Originally Posted by truethat I think you should start a new thread if you want to discuss what you brought up because this thread is specific to Quad's experience. quad's experience is very close to home with me. the two most loved people in my life are religious, I am not. not equal to quad, but close. how do I express my views without betraying the trust of another? (and you have still never answered my question)
	__________________ Not exactly, I'm talking about something I don't know about, if its there then it is what I am talking about and thats not nothing. -punshhh I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten

1st May 2012, 08:12 PM	#265
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	I guess I don't understand your question. Why would you expressing your views have anything to do with betraying the trust of another. I'm not understanding what you mean? Btw I started another thread about what I thought you were saying, but apparently that wasn't it.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	__________________ “Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain

1st May 2012, 08:16 PM	#266
TheGoldcountry Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1,530	Originally Posted by truethat I guess I don't understand your question. Why would you expressing your views have anything to do with betraying the trust of another. I'm not understanding what you mean? Btw I started another thread about what I thought you were saying, but apparently that wasn't it. I am very close to my sister. I don't "push" too hard with her kids, but they are both adults now. Would I be betraying my sister by simply stating what I think? What is the link? I went off on a tangent, but don't just dismiss me. send a PM
	__________________ Not exactly, I'm talking about something I don't know about, if its there then it is what I am talking about and thats not nothing. -punshhh I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten Last edited by TheGoldcountry; 1st May 2012 at 08:17 PM.

1st May 2012, 08:22 PM	#267
Caper Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,946	Originally Posted by llwyd I had this coming bit unexpectedly a couple of weeks ago as we haven't really talked about these issues to our 5 year old, but he came suddenly with this during our Sunday walk: "Daddy, is Grandfather in heaven with God?" (My father passed away a year before our son was born.) I answered that I hope so, and that some people believe that after you die you go to heaven, but some don't. He then asked what I believe, and I said that I don't really know (but didn't mention that I think it's highly unlikely, unfortunately). I wondered who had talked to him about God and heaven, probably his Grandmother. Children are strange people though, you never know what's going on in those little heads... That's my favorite answer. My kid is under 1... I think that's what I'll tell him.... actually... that's what I hope too.
Caper Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,946

1st May 2012, 08:22 PM	#268
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry I am very close to my sister. I don't "push" too hard with her kids, but they are both adults now. Would I be betraying my sister by simply stating what I think? It's sad to me that you even ask that question. I guess I'm biased that our family is the way it is. Why in the world would stating your beliefs be a betrayal of your sister. My sister is religious, my other sister is Wiccan and my other sister is Atheist. We all have our views. But I remember when my one Wiccan sister didn't want to celebrate Christmas any more but felt so leery about letting us all know. It shocked me that she would care. When it comes to children I can understand that people get scared about what their kids are exposed to. But between you and your sister you should definitely tell her. And if they are adults then it's fine. If she loves you she will probably treat you as sort of a Prodigal son on a journey that will eventually find your way back to God. In some way this has been a helpful idea to support when I'm dealing with very religious friends. Even though I know it's total BS if I care about the person it allows me to share my observations and ideas with them without them feeling like I'm trying to convert them and without me getting their need to debate like crazy. The other major difference is that I'm pretty well versed in the Bible and have done my graduate thesis on the OT and even go into seminary as an atheist (don't know if you know) and so I'm much more prepared to discuss the bible and religion than they usually are, so I might not have to contend with them throwing lots of crap in my direction. It's very important to be honest about how you feel about yourself, how you feel about YOUR BELIEFS, but far too many ******** out there seem to think that's also a right be honest about how you feel about THEM and THEIR BELIEFS and this usually has disastrous results. Hope that answers your question.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	__________________ “Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain

1st May 2012, 08:34 PM	#269
TheGoldcountry Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1,530	Originally Posted by truethat It's sad to me that you even ask that question. I guess I'm biased that our family is the way it is. Hope that answers your question. What does that mean?
	__________________ Not exactly, I'm talking about something I don't know about, if its there then it is what I am talking about and thats not nothing. -punshhh I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten

1st May 2012, 08:35 PM	#270
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	It means your question doesn't even register to me because none of us in my family have the same religious beliefs, it would never even occur to me that this was a problem.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	__________________ “Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain

2nd May 2012, 04:35 AM	#271
Quad4_72 AI-EE-YAH! Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: USA Posts: 5,830	Originally Posted by truethat Well she did tell him she wished she knew he was atheist before she married him. So it seems like a really big deal to her. If she can't respect his views then divorce might be the better option. Divorce is definitely not anywhere in the mix of options. The disagreement has not came close to anything like that. When I first told her I didn't believe in god, she was simply surprised by it and said what she did because it came as a shock. I was also surprised by her reaction because before then I was never a practicing christian and I always sort of told her I don't really do religion anymore. I guess it had never clicked in her mind that I could possibly not believe in god at some point. Since then, she has accepted what I believe, except when it comes to voicing my beliefs to our children.
	__________________ Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken

2nd May 2012, 07:21 AM	#272
IDB87 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: In the Grass Posts: 3,414	Quad, Any update on this situation (apologies, I may have missed it if you posted ITT)? Have you spoken to your wife, or had any dialogue about it outside of this forum? *ETA Looks like I just missed it. So, it seems you're at an impasse with regards to what you specifically tell your own son? Yikes. Do you think it's possible to "wear her down", so to speak? The lack of compromise on her end is a bit disturbing.
	__________________ It's guaranteed I'm overreacting. Last edited by IDB87; 2nd May 2012 at 07:23 AM.

2nd May 2012, 07:40 AM	#273
Quad4_72 AI-EE-YAH! Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: USA Posts: 5,830	Originally Posted by IDB87 Quad, Any update on this situation (apologies, I may have missed it if you posted ITT)? Have you spoken to your wife, or had any dialogue about it outside of this forum? *ETA Looks like I just missed it. So, it seems you're at an impasse with regards to what you specifically tell your own son? Yikes. Do you think it's possible to "wear her down", so to speak? The lack of compromise on her end is a bit disturbing. We still have not had an actual sit down about the subject. The only other run in since the OP was when she did the whole "Talk to the hand" thing when my son brought up a religious subject. One thing that was encouraging to me though was yesterday my son came up and asked me who made the world and I told him that actually the best theory we have on the matter is the big bang theory and I gave him a watered down version of that and how the Earth was formed. He seemed excited about it then smiled and ran off somewhere. So I think that is a good sign.
	__________________ Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken

2nd May 2012, 08:20 AM	#274
TheGoldcountry Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1,530	Originally Posted by Quad4_72 We still have not had an actual sit down about the subject. The only other run in since the OP was when she did the whole "Talk to the hand" thing when my son brought up a religious subject. One thing that was encouraging to me though was yesterday my son came up and asked me who made the world and I told him that actually the best theory we have on the matter is the big bang theory and I gave him a watered down version of that and how the Earth was formed. He seemed excited about it then smiled and ran off somewhere. So I think that is a good sign. Good. That sincerely makes me happy. But, if he comes back and has heavy questions, what will you do then?
	__________________ Not exactly, I'm talking about something I don't know about, if its there then it is what I am talking about and thats not nothing. -punshhh I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten

2nd May 2012, 08:45 AM	#275
Quad4_72 AI-EE-YAH! Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: USA Posts: 5,830	Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry Good. That sincerely makes me happy. But, if he comes back and has heavy questions, what will you do then? I will tell him exactly what I believe, as I have always done.
	__________________ Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken