Was Romney a high school bully? - Page 6

BenBurch · 10th May 2012, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Well, Obama once told a girl he didn't want to be her girlfriend back when they both were in the fourth grade, so obviously he's out.

I once pretended to be sick so I could avoid going out with a girl whom friends had thrust upon me. I guess I couldn't be elected dog catcher.

NotJesus · 10th May 2012, 05:08 PM

So, Romney was a dick in high school. Probably still kind of a dick now. And he's giving evasive, possibly lying answers to questions about his youthful dickery.

And if I thought he'd implement policies that were better for the country than Obama's, I'd vote for him without hesitation.

Mycroft · 10th May 2012, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

I seriously disagree on this one.

If he had gotten into a fist fight? Meh.
If he had gotten drunk or high and arrested? Meh.
If he had egged some school rival's house? Meh.

But an armed gang assault on a gay student because he was a gay student? That rises to the bar of WTF.

Playing devil's advocate for a minute, was the kid really targeted because he was gay? Or was he targeted because his appearance was different and then called a gay pejorative because that's what high-school kids do?

Tricky · 10th May 2012, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

That and the fact that it happened 50 years ago.

Obama was born in Kenya more than 50 years ago. Have they let that go?

Tricky · 10th May 2012, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Playing devil's advocate for a minute, was the kid really targeted because he was gay? Or was he targeted because his appearance was different and then called a gay pejorative because that's what high-school kids do?

I agree with this. He was targeted for being a wierdo which may or may not have anything to do with Romney's homophobia, which may have come years later.

ANTPogo · 10th May 2012, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Tricky

I agree with this. He was targeted for being a wierdo which may or may not have anything to do with Romney's homophobia, which may have come years later.

The "Attagirl" thing kind of indicates otherwise, though.

Mycroft · 10th May 2012, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

Well I wouldn't want to be condemned for my actions in school. Like when I told the school board they had no business keeping our one openly gay male student off the cheer squad. Or like when I supported my dad in proposing a school program to keep pregnant students in school. Or when I pointed out that the school was indirectly funding a Christian Bible study club while actively suppressing a secular club. Or volunteering to help with a sober graduation party four years straight.

Yeah I sure wouldn't want to answer for all that heinous crap from my youth.

Wow. You were an impressive kid!

Kudos.

ANTPogo · 10th May 2012, 05:17 PM

There's also this:

Quote:

“I saw it with my own eyes,” said Maxwell, of the anecdote first reported by the Washington Post. Maxwell said Romney held the scissors helping to cut the hair of a student, John Lauber, who was presumed to be gay and who had long hair. “It was a hack job… clumps of hair taken off.”

Maxwell said he held the boy’s arm and leg, describing he and his friends as a “pack of dogs.”

Asked if Lauber was targeted because he was gay, as reported by the Post, Maxwell said, “We didn’t know that word in those days… but there were other words that were used. We weren’t ignorant, we just didn’t use the current names for things.

BenBurch · 10th May 2012, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

The "Attagirl" thing kind of indicates otherwise, though.

Even in the mid 70s, obviously gay guys in a public high school near Chicago were well-known to everybody and many people were nasty to them. IF he was gay or bi (do we know?) and went to the trouble of being visually distinctive, yeah, everybody knew.

Mycroft · 10th May 2012, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

The "Attagirl" thing kind of indicates otherwise, though.

Not necessarily. In my school words like "fag" and "queer" were kinda general purpose pejoratives.

ANTPogo · 10th May 2012, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Not necessarily. In my school words like "fag" and "queer" were kinda general purpose pejoratives.

See the other excerpt I posted, though. One of the other members of Romney's gang of bullies remembers the kid whose hair they cut as being targeted because he was gay.

EDIT: And as far as I know, the prevalence of "fag" and "queer" as general-purpose teenage perjoratives postdates the period Romney was in high school.

Alan · 10th May 2012, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Even in the mid 70s, obviously gay guys in a public high school near Chicago were well-known to everybody and many people were nasty to them. IF he was gay or bi (do we know?) and went to the trouble of being visually distinctive, yeah, everybody knew.

It was reported that he had later come out as gay. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-1...2/?site=sydney

Skeptic Ginger · 10th May 2012, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by mikedenk

It's never too late to go all-in for Ron Paul.

Of course, I heard the NYT is sitting on a devastating story about the time Ron threw a pile of sand into the face of a fellow kindergartener 70 years ago.

Er..uh, Paul would let people who can't pay for health care die if someone didn't step up with charity for the person.

Newtons Bit · 10th May 2012, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

The "Attagirl" thing kind of indicates otherwise, though.

I was called "girl" in elementary school. I'm not gay.

Though my experience with that form of bullying makes Romney's behavior all the more insulting to me.

Skeptic Ginger · 10th May 2012, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by NotJesus

So, Romney was a dick in high school. Probably still kind of a dick now. And he's giving evasive, possibly lying answers to questions about his youthful dickery.

And if I thought he'd implement policies that were better for the country than Obama's, I'd vote for him without hesitation.

Just what are those policies? Got any source I can see some details beyond slogans?

NotJesus · 10th May 2012, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Just what are those policies? Got any source I can see some details beyond slogans?

Why are you asking me?

Skeptic Ginger · 10th May 2012, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Playing devil's advocate for a minute, was the kid really targeted because he was gay? Or was he targeted because his appearance was different and then called a gay pejorative because that's what high-school kids do?

Personally, given the sentiments in the US in 1965, I think the victim simply had long hair the jocks didn't like. Boys with long hair were called gay as a pejorative but gays were much more closeted then and not a real issue. The Stonewall riots didn't happen until 1969.

Skeptic Ginger · 10th May 2012, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

The "Attagirl" thing kind of indicates otherwise, though.

Not at that time. Boys with long hair were called girls but there was no actual gay connotation in most of the insults.

Alan · 10th May 2012, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

I was called "girl" in elementary school. I'm not gay.

Though my experience with that form of bullying makes Romney's behavior all the more insulting to me.

Romney says he didn't consider that this man might be gay*, so the following might not apply to his actions here. It is whether the bully thinks that their target is gay, or the bully suggests that it would be bad to be, that makes it homophobic bullying and not whether the target actually is gay.

*which comes across as heterosexist but I won't push this point.

EDIT: I don't think that you're saying otherwise now, but I thought you might have been when I wrote this.

Skeptic Ginger · 10th May 2012, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Alan

It was reported that he had later come out as gay. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-1...2/?site=sydney

That does change things. I'll accept the bullies were condemning gays as well as boys with long hair.

Quote:

Asked about the incident involving Mr Lauber - who later came out as gay and died of liver cancer in 2004

Drysdale · 10th May 2012, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

This isn't going away, trust me.

Hope not. Go Santorum!!!

Skeptic Ginger · 10th May 2012, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by NotJesus

Why are you asking me?

I thought you were suggesting it:

Quote:

And if I thought he'd implement policies that were better for the country than Obama's ...

Skeptic Ginger · 10th May 2012, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Drysdale

Hope not. Go Santorum!!!

You forgot the link.

epepke · 10th May 2012, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

So beating suspected homosexuals is OK as long as they are not homosexuals?

No. That's a rather bizarre thing to suggest.

I suppose that I should no longer be surprised at how uninterested "skeptics" are in factual judgments.

epepke · 10th May 2012, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Playing devil's advocate for a minute, was the kid really targeted because he was gay? Or was he targeted because his appearance was different and then called a gay pejorative because that's what high-school kids do?

I can definitely state from my memories of the 1970s that anybody who looked different (at least anybody male who looked different) was called a faggot. I'm pretty sure that in 1965, when long hair on men was still considered a bit of a statement, it was even more so, especially to those as conservative as Romney.

JoeTheJuggler · 10th May 2012, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

It's not the bullying of his past that really matters, it's the fact that he wants to bully homosexuals today that should really matter.

Criticizing him for the one doesn't preclude criticizing him for the other.

And again, this was an assault--more than the sort of bullying that might have been socially acceptable (or at least done by a lot of people) in the early '60s.

RandFan · 10th May 2012, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by epepke

I can definitely state from my memories of the 1970s that anybody who looked different (at least anybody male who looked different) was called a faggot. I'm pretty sure that in 1965, when long hair on men was still considered a bit of a statement, it was even more so, especially to those as conservative as Romney.

I'm not sure what argument you are trying to make. Are you suggesting that Romney be judged by the light of his times? If so I reject that. Bullying was wrong and thinking homosexuality was immoral didn't justify bullying. Like Romney I grew up a Mormon and and I also grew up in the 70s, it was quite clear in Sunday School that such behavior was immoral. Mormons who suffered persecution for decades didn't have an "it's okay to beat people who are different than you" rule.

Howie Felterbush · 10th May 2012, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

As far as I am concerned, this disqualifies the man to hold high office of any sort.

Didn't the fact that he's a Republican already take care of that?

shuize · 10th May 2012, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

I once pretended to be sick so I could avoid going out with a girl whom friends had thrust upon me. I guess I couldn't be elected dog catcher.

I once climbed out a window when faced with a similar situation.

But I was 11 at the time.

Tricky · 10th May 2012, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

I was called "girl" in elementary school. I'm not gay.

Me too. It had more about being small and weak than anything sexual. But that was elementary school, not the upper grades.

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

Though my experience with that form of bullying makes Romney's behavior all the more insulting to me.

The fact that Romney engaged in bullying of any kind is revolting to me. I was quite the prankster in school, but I never did anything to humiliate another student. I can't imagine doing it. Most of my stuff was just "WTF" kind of pranks. Messing with people's minds.

Tsukasa Buddha · 10th May 2012, 06:42 PM

I don't care about character or past bad acts, what bothers me is the response to those acts, even by the person today. I greatly dislike that people are so quick to shrug away pretty serious assault as "pranks" and "boys stuff". Even people who take it somewhat more seriously give it the less offensive moniker of "bullying". It is depressing that after the awareness movements not too long ago people are still using the same excusing language and tones.

Unabogie · 10th May 2012, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Tricky

Me too. It had more about being small and weak than anything sexual. But that was elementary school, not the upper grades.

The fact that Romney engaged in bullying of any kind is revolting to me. I was quite the prankster in school, but I never did anything to humiliate another student. I can't imagine doing it. Most of my stuff was just "WTF" kind of pranks. Messing with people's minds.

In the article, they describe one of Mitt's pranks as dressing up as a cop and sneaking up on his friends who were with girls (although, now that I typed that, were they really his friends if they didn't recognize him? Maybe it was dark? I digress...) but I think that's actually kind of funny. No one got hurt, it's something a teenager would do, etc.

The incident with the scissors is horrifying. It just seems like such a gross violation of someone to hold them down and alter them somehow. What's more personal than my hair? Who has the right to cut it besides me? And his weird reaction today makes it worse. He seems to feel nothing about what he did. It's just a distraction. He sees no shame and feels no true remorse. I just don't understand this guy.

ANTPogo · 10th May 2012, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

The incident with the scissors is horrifying. It just seems like such a gross violation of someone to hold them down and alter them somehow. What's more personal than my hair? Who has the right to cut it besides me? And his weird reaction today makes it worse. He seems to feel nothing about what he did. It's just a distraction. He sees no shame and feels no true remorse. I just don't understand this guy.

Yeah. It's disturbingly...sociopathic.

Tricky · 10th May 2012, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Yeah. It's disturbingly...sociopathic.

But it fits in with his MO. "I will destroy my enemies, and I don't care what it does to them."

shemp · 10th May 2012, 07:01 PM

But did he eat any dog meat?

fishbob · 10th May 2012, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by applecorped

By that standard please advise a clean candidate.

No matter how I parse this, it does not convey meaning. Please clarify.

fishbob · 10th May 2012, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Playing devil's advocate for a minute, was the kid really targeted because he was gay? Or was he targeted because his appearance was different and then called a gay pejorative because that's what high-school kids do?

What is the difference?

Tsukasa Buddha · 10th May 2012, 07:13 PM

Here's GLSEN's take on why this matters:

Quote:

NEW YORK, May 10, 2012 - The Gay, Lesbian & Straight Education Network (GLSEN) calls on Republican Presidential candidate Mitt Romney to clarify his position on efforts to prevent bullying, harassment and assault in schools after revelations regarding his own behavior as a student led to a dismissive "apology" for his participation in an assault on a gay student.

...

"This is deeply troubling behavior on the part of an individual in Governor Mitt Romney's position. Romney's so-called apology for his past actions sheds new light on his disturbing track record on bullying and suicide prevention while Governor of Massachusetts," GLSEN Executive Director Dr. Eliza Byard said. "Far from being 'hijinks' or a 'prank,' Romney's behavior toward his high school classmate amounted to harassment and assault. And GLSEN remembers all too well Romney's troubling record while he was Governor of Massachusetts on programs designed to protect LGBT youth and prevent youth suicide. Nearly one in five lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender students will be assaulted at school this year. What would Mr. Romney propose to do as President to address this horrifying reality?

"It is critical that Mr. Romney make clear how he would approach these issues as President. Would he again seek to end important measures initiated by a previous administration, as he did in MA? Would he support the efforts of Congress to address these issues through endorsement of the Safe Schools Improvement Act and Student Non-Discrimination Act?"

To learn more, please read GLSEN's one-page policy resource explaining both pieces of federal legislation.

While Governor of Massachusetts, Romney threatened to eliminate the state's LGBT Youth Commission, which was established through an executive order by Republican Governor William Weld. The Legislature had to scramble to pass a law to keep it alive.

GLSEN's 2009 National School Climate Survey found that 84.6% of LGBT students experienced harassment at school in the past year, 18.8% were assaulted and 61.1% felt unsafe at school because of their sexual orientation.

The bipartisan Safe Schools Improvement Act would require all public schools to enact anti-bullying policies that include protections based on the characteristics of students most often targeted for bullying, including bullying based on race, religion, sexual orientation and gender identity.

The bipartisan Student Non-Discrimination Act would make discrimination in schools based on sexual orientation or gender identity against the law.

Linky.

I Ratant · 10th May 2012, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by NotJesus

So, Romney was a dick in high school. Probably still kind of a dick now. And he's giving evasive, possibly lying answers to questions about his youthful dickery.

And if I thought he'd implement policies that were better for the country than Obama's, I'd vote for him without hesitation.

.
I wonder if -that- incident was not enough different from -all the others- Mitt did so as to not stand out in his memory....

tyr_13 · 10th May 2012, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by shemp

But did he eat any dog meat?

Naw, but he made a kid with a lisp eat dog ****. Good times.

10th May 2012, 05:08 PM	#201
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,089	Originally Posted by ANTPogo Well, Obama once told a girl he didn't want to be her girlfriend back when they both were in the fourth grade, so obviously he's out. I once pretended to be sick so I could avoid going out with a girl whom friends had thrust upon me. I guess I couldn't be elected dog catcher.
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10th May 2012, 05:08 PM	#202
NotJesus Unsaviory Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: LA Posts: 5,462	So, Romney was a dick in high school. Probably still kind of a dick now. And he's giving evasive, possibly lying answers to questions about his youthful dickery. And if I thought he'd implement policies that were better for the country than Obama's, I'd vote for him without hesitation.
	__________________ I have now reread what I've just written, and I see that I'm much more intelligent than what I've written. How does it come about that what an intelligent man expresses is much stupider than what remains inside him? -Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Adolescent

10th May 2012, 05:11 PM	#203
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,103	Originally Posted by BenBurch I seriously disagree on this one. If he had gotten into a fist fight? Meh. If he had gotten drunk or high and arrested? Meh. If he had egged some school rival's house? Meh. But an armed gang assault on a gay student because he was a gay student? That rises to the bar of WTF. Playing devil's advocate for a minute, was the kid really targeted because he was gay? Or was he targeted because his appearance was different and then called a gay pejorative because that's what high-school kids do?
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

10th May 2012, 05:15 PM	#206
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,295	Originally Posted by Tricky I agree with this. He was targeted for being a wierdo which may or may not have anything to do with Romney's homophobia, which may have come years later. The "Attagirl" thing kind of indicates otherwise, though.
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris

10th May 2012, 05:16 PM	#207
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,103	Originally Posted by Travis Well I wouldn't want to be condemned for my actions in school. Like when I told the school board they had no business keeping our one openly gay male student off the cheer squad. Or like when I supported my dad in proposing a school program to keep pregnant students in school. Or when I pointed out that the school was indirectly funding a Christian Bible study club while actively suppressing a secular club. Or volunteering to help with a sober graduation party four years straight. Yeah I sure wouldn't want to answer for all that heinous crap from my youth. Wow. You were an impressive kid! Kudos.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

10th May 2012, 05:12 PM	#204
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,345	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer That and the fact that it happened *50 years* ago. Obama was born in Kenya more than 50 years ago. Have they let that go?

10th May 2012, 05:14 PM	#205
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,345	Originally Posted by Mycroft Playing devil's advocate for a minute, was the kid really targeted because he was gay? Or was he targeted because his appearance was different and then called a gay pejorative because that's what high-school kids do? I agree with this. He was targeted for being a wierdo which may or may not have anything to do with Romney's homophobia, which may have come years later.

10th May 2012, 05:17 PM	#208
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,295	There's also this: Quote: “I saw it with my own eyes,” said Maxwell, of the anecdote first reported by the Washington Post. Maxwell said Romney held the scissors helping to cut the hair of a student, John Lauber, who was presumed to be gay and who had long hair. “It was a hack job… clumps of hair taken off.” Maxwell said he held the boy’s arm and leg, describing he and his friends as a “pack of dogs.” Asked if Lauber was targeted because he was gay, as reported by the Post, Maxwell said, “We didn’t know that word in those days… but there were other words that were used. We weren’t ignorant, we just didn’t use the current names for things.
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris

10th May 2012, 05:18 PM	#209
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,089	Originally Posted by ANTPogo The "Attagirl" thing kind of indicates otherwise, though. Even in the mid 70s, obviously gay guys in a public high school near Chicago were well-known to everybody and many people were nasty to them. IF he was gay or bi (do we know?) and went to the trouble of being visually distinctive, yeah, everybody knew.
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10th May 2012, 05:31 PM	#210
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,103	Originally Posted by ANTPogo The "Attagirl" thing kind of indicates otherwise, though. Not necessarily. In my school words like "fag" and "queer" were kinda general purpose pejoratives.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

10th May 2012, 05:33 PM	#211
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,295	Originally Posted by Mycroft Not necessarily. In my school words like "fag" and "queer" were kinda general purpose pejoratives. See the other excerpt I posted, though. One of the other members of Romney's gang of bullies remembers the kid whose hair they cut as being targeted because he was gay. EDIT: And as far as I know, the prevalence of "fag" and "queer" as general-purpose teenage perjoratives postdates the period Romney was in high school.
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris Last edited by ANTPogo; 10th May 2012 at 05:34 PM.

10th May 2012, 05:33 PM	#212
Alan Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 3,651	Originally Posted by BenBurch Even in the mid 70s, obviously gay guys in a public high school near Chicago were well-known to everybody and many people were nasty to them. IF he was gay or bi (do we know?) and went to the trouble of being visually distinctive, yeah, everybody knew. It was reported that he had later come out as gay. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-1...2/?site=sydney

10th May 2012, 05:36 PM	#213
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,507	Originally Posted by mikedenk It's never too late to go all-in for Ron Paul. Of course, I heard the NYT is sitting on a devastating story about the time Ron threw a pile of sand into the face of a fellow kindergartener 70 years ago. Er..uh, Paul would let people who can't pay for health care die if someone didn't step up with charity for the person.
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10th May 2012, 05:36 PM	#214
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,879	Originally Posted by ANTPogo The "Attagirl" thing kind of indicates otherwise, though. I was called "girl" in elementary school. I'm not gay. Though my experience with that form of bullying makes Romney's behavior all the more insulting to me.
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,879	__________________ "Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein My website.

10th May 2012, 05:38 PM	#215
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,507	Originally Posted by NotJesus So, Romney was a dick in high school. Probably still kind of a dick now. And he's giving evasive, possibly lying answers to questions about his youthful dickery. And if I thought he'd implement policies that were better for the country than Obama's, I'd vote for him without hesitation. Just what are those policies? Got any source I can see some details beyond slogans?
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

10th May 2012, 05:41 PM	#216
NotJesus Unsaviory Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: LA Posts: 5,462	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Just what are those policies? Got any source I can see some details beyond slogans? Why are you asking me?
	__________________ I have now reread what I've just written, and I see that I'm much more intelligent than what I've written. How does it come about that what an intelligent man expresses is much stupider than what remains inside him? -Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Adolescent

10th May 2012, 05:42 PM	#217
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,507	Originally Posted by Mycroft Playing devil's advocate for a minute, was the kid really targeted because he was gay? Or was he targeted because his appearance was different and then called a gay pejorative because that's what high-school kids do? Personally, given the sentiments in the US in 1965, I think the victim simply had long hair the jocks didn't like. Boys with long hair were called gay as a pejorative but gays were much more closeted then and not a real issue. The Stonewall riots didn't happen until 1969.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

10th May 2012, 05:43 PM	#218
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,507	Originally Posted by ANTPogo The "Attagirl" thing kind of indicates otherwise, though. Not at that time. Boys with long hair were called girls but there was no actual gay connotation in most of the insults.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

10th May 2012, 05:45 PM	#219
Alan Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 3,651	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit I was called "girl" in elementary school. I'm not gay. Though my experience with that form of bullying makes Romney's behavior all the more insulting to me. Romney says he didn't consider that this man might be gay, so the following might not apply to his actions here. It is whether the bully thinks that their target is gay, or the bully suggests that it would be bad to be, that makes it homophobic bullying and not whether the target actually is gay. which comes across as heterosexist but I won't push this point. EDIT: I don't think that you're saying otherwise now, but I thought you might have been when I wrote this.
	Last edited by Alan; 10th May 2012 at 05:52 PM.

10th May 2012, 05:46 PM	#220
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,507	Originally Posted by Alan It was reported that he had later come out as gay. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-1...2/?site=sydney That does change things. I'll accept the bullies were condemning gays as well as boys with long hair. Quote: Asked about the incident involving Mr Lauber - who later came out as gay and died of liver cancer in 2004
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

10th May 2012, 05:47 PM	#221
Drysdale Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,017	Originally Posted by BenBurch This isn't going away, trust me. Hope not. Go Santorum!!!

10th May 2012, 05:48 PM	#222
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,507	Originally Posted by NotJesus Why are you asking me? I thought you were suggesting it: Quote: And if I thought he'd implement policies that were better for the country than Obama's ...
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

10th May 2012, 05:49 PM	#223
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,507	Originally Posted by Drysdale Hope not. Go Santorum!!! You forgot the link.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

10th May 2012, 06:07 PM	#224
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle So beating suspected homosexuals is OK as long as they are not homosexuals? No. That's a rather bizarre thing to suggest. I suppose that I should no longer be surprised at how uninterested "skeptics" are in factual judgments.
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	__________________ "It probably came from a sticky dark planet far, far away." - Godzilla versus Hedora "There's no evidence that the 9-11 attacks (whoever did them) were deliberately attacking civilians. On the contrary the targets appear to have been chosen as military." -DavidByron

10th May 2012, 06:10 PM	#225
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	Originally Posted by Mycroft Playing devil's advocate for a minute, was the kid really targeted because he was gay? Or was he targeted because his appearance was different and then called a gay pejorative because that's what high-school kids do? I can definitely state from my memories of the 1970s that anybody who looked different (at least anybody male who looked different) was called a faggot. I'm pretty sure that in 1965, when long hair on men was still considered a bit of a statement, it was even more so, especially to those as conservative as Romney.
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	__________________ "It probably came from a sticky dark planet far, far away." - Godzilla versus Hedora "There's no evidence that the 9-11 attacks (whoever did them) were deliberately attacking civilians. On the contrary the targets appear to have been chosen as military." -DavidByron

10th May 2012, 06:16 PM	#226
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,667	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken It's not the bullying of his past that really matters, it's the fact that he wants to bully homosexuals today that should really matter. Criticizing him for the one doesn't preclude criticizing him for the other. And again, this was an assault--more than the sort of bullying that might have been socially acceptable (or at least done by a lot of people) in the early '60s.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

10th May 2012, 06:19 PM	#227
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,096	Originally Posted by epepke I can definitely state from my memories of the 1970s that anybody who looked different (at least anybody male who looked different) was called a faggot. I'm pretty sure that in 1965, when long hair on men was still considered a bit of a statement, it was even more so, especially to those as conservative as Romney. I'm not sure what argument you are trying to make. Are you suggesting that Romney be judged by the light of his times? If so I reject that. Bullying was wrong and thinking homosexuality was immoral didn't justify bullying. Like Romney I grew up a Mormon and and I also grew up in the 70s, it was quite clear in Sunday School that such behavior was immoral. Mormons who suffered persecution for decades didn't have an "it's okay to beat people who are different than you" rule.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

10th May 2012, 06:19 PM	#228
Howie Felterbush Bow Tie Daddy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In the twilight, singing all the old lullabies Posts: 5,333	Originally Posted by BenBurch As far as I am concerned, this disqualifies the man to hold high office of any sort. Didn't the fact that he's a Republican already take care of that?
	__________________ "Don't be too offended by the likes of him - I hear he doesn't even own ascots." -JoeyDonuts "I must be more tired than I thought. Howie, you are starting to make sense." -MG1962 "You're a mean old evil cynic. And mean." Halfcentaur

10th May 2012, 06:21 PM	#229
shuize Master Poster Join Date: May 2002 Location: Japan Posts: 2,305	Originally Posted by BenBurch I once pretended to be sick so I could avoid going out with a girl whom friends had thrust upon me. I guess I couldn't be elected dog catcher. I once climbed out a window when faced with a similar situation. But I was 11 at the time.

10th May 2012, 06:27 PM	#230
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,345	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit I was called "girl" in elementary school. I'm not gay. Me too. It had more about being small and weak than anything sexual. But that was elementary school, not the upper grades. Originally Posted by Newtons Bit Though my experience with that form of bullying makes Romney's behavior all the more insulting to me. The fact that Romney engaged in bullying of any kind is revolting to me. I was quite the prankster in school, but I never did anything to humiliate another student. I can't imagine doing it. Most of my stuff was just "WTF" kind of pranks. Messing with people's minds.

10th May 2012, 06:42 PM	#231
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,883	I don't care about character or past bad acts, what bothers me is the response to those acts, even by the person today. I greatly dislike that people are so quick to shrug away pretty serious assault as "pranks" and "boys stuff". Even people who take it somewhat more seriously give it the less offensive moniker of "bullying". It is depressing that after the awareness movements not too long ago people are still using the same excusing language and tones.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

10th May 2012, 06:43 PM	#232
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,840	Originally Posted by Tricky Me too. It had more about being small and weak than anything sexual. But that was elementary school, not the upper grades. The fact that Romney engaged in bullying of any kind is revolting to me. I was quite the prankster in school, but I never did anything to humiliate another student. I can't imagine doing it. Most of my stuff was just "WTF" kind of pranks. Messing with people's minds. In the article, they describe one of Mitt's pranks as dressing up as a cop and sneaking up on his friends who were with girls (although, now that I typed that, were they really his friends if they didn't recognize him? Maybe it was dark? I digress...) but I think that's actually kind of funny. No one got hurt, it's something a teenager would do, etc. The incident with the scissors is horrifying. It just seems like such a gross violation of someone to hold them down and alter them somehow. What's more personal than my hair? Who has the right to cut it besides me? And his weird reaction today makes it worse. He seems to feel nothing about what he did. It's just a distraction. He sees no shame and feels no true remorse. I just don't understand this guy.

10th May 2012, 06:56 PM	#233
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,295	Originally Posted by Unabogie The incident with the scissors is horrifying. It just seems like such a gross violation of someone to hold them down and alter them somehow. What's more personal than my hair? Who has the right to cut it besides me? And his weird reaction today makes it worse. He seems to feel nothing about what he did. It's just a distraction. He sees no shame and feels no true remorse. I just don't understand this guy. Yeah. It's disturbingly...sociopathic.
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris

10th May 2012, 06:59 PM	#234
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,345	Originally Posted by ANTPogo Yeah. It's disturbingly...sociopathic. But it fits in with his MO. "I will destroy my enemies, and I don't care what it does to them."

10th May 2012, 07:01 PM	#235
shemp Timothy, Timothy, where on earth did you go? Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: trapped in a cave-in with Joe Posts: 12,884	But did he eat any dog meat?
	__________________ Church on Sunday, sleep and nod Tryin' to duck the wrath of God Preacher's fillin' us with fright Tryin' to tell us what he thinks is right He really got to be some kind of nut (I can't use it!) Tryin' to make it real - compared to what?