Moderated: Money

[Tomtomkent]

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

And it's still a looney thing to say. Utopia is not an advance unless you are evil and want to murder people, enslave them and steal babies from their mothers like they do in your "advance" society. This is why we don't let burger flippers determine economic policies.

Kind of the point i am trying to encourage Gaetan to address. Adopting the system described in Utopia is very different from just getting rid of money. If More is a spiritual leader and Utopia is a model society then surely we need to adopt all aspects of the model, not the one Gatean likes.

The model conflicts with Gaetans rambling. It would mean self sufficient nations with closed borders, slaves, and brutality. Not an end to world hunger. Not a distribution of food.

[RoboTimbo]

Originally Posted by Tomtomkent

Kind of the point i am trying to encourage Gaetan to address. Adopting the system described in Utopia is very different from just getting rid of money. If More is a spiritual leader and Utopia is a model society then surely we need to adopt all aspects of the model, not the one Gatean likes.

The model conflicts with Gaetans rambling. It would mean self sufficient nations with closed borders, slaves, and brutality. Not an end to world hunger. Not a distribution of food.

He hasn't displayed much consistency in addressing points, just restating his beliefs.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

I told you, what i point out in that book is the no money system and that's what we should adopt, and i said that this book was an advance compared with what we had in the world at the time the book was written, yes i would say that Thomas More was a spiritual leader in his period of time.

Get this through your skull: you are asserting, not demonstrating.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by Tomtomkent

Kind of the point i am trying to encourage Gaetan to address. Adopting the system described in Utopia is very different from just getting rid of money. If More is a spiritual leader and Utopia is a model society then surely we need to adopt all aspects of the model, not the one Gatean likes.

The model conflicts with Gaetans rambling. It would mean self sufficient nations with closed borders, slaves, and brutality. Not an end to world hunger. Not a distribution of food.

I want to make this clear if you don't understand:

I want to abolish money, prison, borders between countries but conserning Thomas More about balance of cities, it is not that bad, just look Mexico but i am against to do it against the free will of peoples.

[RoboTimbo]

You want to abolish civilization against the free will of peoples because either you're evil or you just don't know what you're talking about. This is why we don't put burger flippers in charge of anything more than asking if someone wants fries with that.

[Dinwar]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

I want to abolish money, prison, borders between countries but conserning Thomas More about balance of cities, it is not that bad,

So you're against borders between countries, but in favor of ruthless enforcement of borders between cities and the countryside. Because THAT makes sense.

Quote:

but i am against to do it against the free will of peoples.

The first thing you've said that makes sense.

Doing this--ANY of your proposals--is against my will. Thus, you can't. Problem solved.

[MIKILLINI]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

We discussed about it before, equity is an abstract value because it depends of abstract factors. What i discuss are real things, the value you put on something is an illusion. So equity is just an evil illusion, stay in what is true.

Wrong. Equity is no more of an illusion than trading favors for other people. Both have a value that is real. If you build me a house, do you expect anything from me in return? Even if your belief is that I will obligingly do something to return the favor, it's still an expectation of value. Expectations are real, it's equitable; That's not an illusion.
You just don't want to associate yourself with what you perceive to be evil (Your incorrect interpretation of the Bible) so you changed equity to free will/no money. The illusion here is your perception.

[Tomtomkent]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

I want to make this clear if you don't understand:

I want to abolish money, prison, borders between countries but conserning Thomas More about balance of cities, it is not that bad, just look Mexico but i am against to do it against the free will of peoples.

Well here's a fun game. We now know your view on some of his policies.

You agree with the moneyless aspect.
You agree with "the balance in cities" which would be population distribution and internal passports. You think it is not so bad to forcibly remove children from their parents and savagely punish those who travel between towns with out permission. How you can agree to this once you abolish borders is illogical. Where will you send the outcasts too?

You disagree with the key aspect, the closed borders.
You make no comment on slavery.
You make no comment on removal of individualism.
You make no comment on forced labour rosters.

You agree with two aspects of the philosophy, disagree with one, and make no comment on three, or two if by "abolishing prison" you mean you accept slavery as moral.


Not much of a spiritual leader at all.

[Joecool]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

I want to make this clear if you don't understand:

I want to abolish money, prison, borders between countries but conserning Thomas More about balance of cities, it is not that bad, just look Mexico but i am against to do it against the free will of peoples.

You want to abolish borders such as in Mexico? Do you know anything about Jaurez Mexico. where drug lords rule the city and they can't hire and keep a police chief?

With no prison, you'll have pedophiles and rapists walking the streets?

With your religious overtones, it sounds like you think your "Utopia" is really heaven (not everyone believes) where people are not greedy, where work is shared, everyone has what they want and need, and everyone cooperates. If you are talking about no money in heaven, that is one thing. If you are talking about the real world, there is no way the world will accept a no money system. This forum alone is proof of that.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

I want to make this clear if you don't understand:

I want to abolish money, prison, borders between countries but conserning Thomas More about balance of cities, it is not that bad, just look Mexico but i am against to do it against the free will of peoples.

So you want to abolish everything mankind has done in the last few tens of thousands of years, and you don't see a problem with that ?

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by MIKILLINI

Wrong. Equity is no more of an illusion than trading favors for other people. Both have a value that is real. If you build me a house, do you expect anything from me in return? Even if your belief is that I will obligingly do something to return the favor, it's still an expectation of value. Expectations are real, it's equitable; That's not an illusion.
You just don't want to associate yourself with what you perceive to be evil (Your incorrect interpretation of the Bible) so you changed equity to free will/no money. The illusion here is your perception.

We discussed about it before, a worker in china gets paid $1 an hour to build a TV, a guy in US gets paid $15 so what is the fair price for this work, YOU DON'T KNOW, it got to be free. You build it for free and you expect that people do the same for you for others goods. Equity or justice are an illusion, for 7 billion people there are 7 billion fair price for a good.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

We discussed about it before, a worker in china gets paid $1 an hour to build a TV, a guy in US gets paid $15 so what is the fair price for this work, YOU DON'T KNOW, it got to be free.

The difference is, the guy in China pays 15 times less for his stuff, too.

Quote:

You build it for free and you expect that people do the same for you for others goods. Equity or justice are an illusion, for 7 billion people there are 7 billion fair price for a good.

The problem with your utopia, Gaétan, is that you simply expect people to work for free, completely ignoring that people do not, historically, work for free most of the time, unless they really really love what they do, which is seldom the case. Do you understand this ?

[RoboTimbo]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

We discussed about it before, a worker in china gets paid $1 an hour to build a TV, a guy in US gets paid $15 so what is the fair price for this work, YOU DON'T KNOW, it got to be free. You build it for free and you expect that people do the same for you for others goods. Equity or justice are an illusion, for 7 billion people there are 7 billion fair price for a good.

Good, you seem to understand that price is relative, as it should be. What does a pair of pants cost in Chine? It's relative to their wage, you say? Good for you! You just learned an object lesson!

[MIKILLINI]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

We discussed about it before, a worker in china gets paid $1 an hour to build a TV, a guy in US gets paid $15 so what is the fair price for this work, YOU DON'T KNOW, it got to be free. You build it for free and you expect that people do the same for you for others goods. Equity or justice are an illusion, for 7 billion people there are 7 billion fair price for a good.

They don't make TVs in the US anymore Gaetan. See? You have expectations of other people to trade work for your work: It's a value you depend on for your no money system..which is an expectation, an equity of labor for labor. You say if one DOES NOT return the favor, then they will be ignored. This means you will no longer do any labor for them, unless they "pay up" with their own "equitable labor" to make things more "equal".
That's no illusion, but a fact you argue for.

[Dinwar]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

so what is the fair price for this work, YOU DON'T KNOW, it got to be free.

Because I can't state a universal answer to a question that's situationally depenant, therefore we must abandon that system?

What's the proper dose of chemotherapy drugs? If you can't give me one single answer, we must obviously give up modern medicine. Obviously the people getting better on chemotherapy are merely deluded fools.

Quote:

You build it for free and you expect that people do the same for you for others goods.

Except that such a system can only function if no one violates it. It's simply not robust. Money creates a vastly superior system, in that the system ACTUALLY AND DEMONSTRABLY WORKS.

Quote:

Equity or justice are an illusion, for 7 billion people there are 7 billion fair price for a good.

That doesn't mean that equity is an illusion; it simply means that people have different hierarchies of value. That's a GOOD THING--without precisely that, all exchanges would be impossible. How could you trade? You'd either be defrauding someone, or simply breaking even. The differences in our hierarchies of value allow you and me to trade and BOTH OF US to come out ahead.

[Tomtomkent]

Gaeten. Why do you think more TVs made in China than the US?
Why do houses cost different prices in different towns let alone in different countries?

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by MIKILLINI

They don't make TVs in the US anymore Gaetan. See? You have expectations of other people to trade work for your work: It's a value you depend on for your no money system..which is an expectation, an equity of labor for labor. You say if one DOES NOT return the favor, then they will be ignored. This means you will no longer do any labor for them, unless they "pay up" with their own "equitable labor" to make things more "equal".
That's no illusion, but a fact you argue for.

No it doesn't mean that, if some people don't work we got to live with it but i think all people will find something to do for others and there will be a lot less unemployed people.

[RoboTimbo]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

No it doesn't mean that, if some people don't work we got to live with it but i think all people will find something to do for others and there will be a lot less unemployed people.

You are incorrect. A large majority of people will not work when there is no incentive to do so. What would have ever made you think otherwise? It's already been explained to you dozens of times. What part is confusing for you?

[Joecool]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

No it doesn't mean that, if some people don't work we got to live with it but i think all people will find something to do for others and there will be a lot less unemployed people.

Yes, I will play golf for a living while you clean toilets and slaughter livestock for my dinner. Is that how it works?

[Dinwar]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

No it doesn't mean that, if some people don't work we got to live with it but i think all people will find something to do for others and there will be a lot less unemployed people.

"...and I base this on nothing."

After pages and pages and pages and PAGES and pages of your ramblings, your latest argument is "You were all right, some people may decide to do nothing"? That's almost disapointing. Particularly since you fail to see why that would be destructive to your system.

[MIKILLINI]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Why would refuse to work for others when others work for you. If you don't work for others, we ignore you.

YOU SAID THIS ↑ But then....

Originally Posted by Gaetan

No it doesn't mean that, if some people don't work we got to live with it but i think all people will find something to do for others and there will be a lot less unemployed people.

Trying to escape the "trading labor for labor as equity" now is to late for you Gaetan. You argue that expectations have value in your system, and although some people will be obliged to trade their "value" to avoid an imbalance, this imbalance will never equal out. Unemployment will be much, much higher than it is now.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by MIKILLINI

YOU SAID THIS ↑ But then....



Trying to escape the "trading labor for labor as equity" now is to late for you Gaetan. You argue that expectations have value in your system, and although some people will be obliged to trade their "value" to avoid an imbalance, this imbalance will never equal out. Unemployment will be much, much higher than it is now.

The difference between your system and mine, among other things, is in the obligation. In my system there is no obligation, your free, in your satanic system there is always obligation, if you don't work, you don't eat unless a good Samaritain help you, if you can't pay, you can't eat, unless someone help you and give you the food for free. With your system there is an evil tax on you, with mine none.

[RoboTimbo]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

The difference between your system and mine, among other things, is in the obligation. In my system there is no obligation, your free, in your satanic system

Still pushing your looney religion in this thread, I see.

Quote:

there is always obligation, if you don't work, you don't eat unless a good Samaritain help you, if you can't pay, you can't eat, unless someone help you and give you the food for free.

You don't seem to be aware of the various funded social programs and welfare systems. Do you live in a country with no social programs?

In your system, you said you would ignore people who don't contribute. They would starve to death, shunned by one and all. You are only giving lip service to everything being free. In your looney system there is obligation, you just don't understand or recognize it. In your looney system, everything costs, you just don't understand or recognize it.

[RoboTimbo]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

With your system there is an evil tax on you

Still pushing your looney religion in this thread, I see.

Quote:

with mine none.

With yours, there is no civilization. Everyone is hunter/gatherer, the few thousand who are still alive who haven't been brutally killed.

[MIKILLINI]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

The difference between your system and mine, among other things, is in the obligation. In my system there is no obligation, your free, in your satanic system there is always obligation, if you don't work, you don't eat unless a good Samaritain help you, if you can't pay, you can't eat, unless someone help you and give you the food for free. With your system there is an evil tax on you, with mine none.

You can't hide from what you have already stated Gaetan. In your system, if you don't do anything you die, simple as that. Unless a good Samaritan helps you out. hmmm... No difference there.
I don't see any socialized programs in your system (That thing where the "evil" tax money is used). You will need more good Samaritans than the "evil" system.

In your system there is obligation to trade labor for labor because each person's skills will determine who will have to work harder for more popular "in demand" type of products. Your setting up a scenario of potential animosity among this group of people. They will feel the "imbalance"

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by MIKILLINI

You can't hide from what you have already stated Gaetan. In your system, if you don't do anything you die, simple as that. Unless a good Samaritan helps you out. hmmm... No difference there.

You don't understand, MY SYSTEM IS BASED ON GOOD SAMARITAN.

Quote:

I don't see any socialized programs in your system (That thing where the "evil" tax money is used). You will need more good Samaritans than the "evil" system.

My system is pure socialism and you don't see any socialised programs. When i talk about tax, i talk about obligation, an obligation is nothing else than an evil tax.

[RoboTimbo]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

You don't understand, MY SYSTEM IS BASED ON GOOD SAMARITAN.

Ah now I see where you're making your mistake. Not everyone will be a good Samaritan. Almost none, in fact.

Quote:

My system is pure socialism and you don't see any socialised programs. When i talk about tax, i talk about obligation, an obligation is nothing else than an evil tax.

Still wedging your looney religion in, I see. Your system is pure lunacy. When we talk about tax, we talk about funding programs for the benefit of the community. Why would anyone see that as evil?

[Joecool]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

You don't understand, MY SYSTEM IS BASED ON GOOD SAMARITAN.

My system is pure socialism and you don't see any socialised programs. When i talk about tax, i talk about obligation, an obligation is nothing else than an evil tax.

Your system is based on fantasy. Sure, there are some good Samaritans around, but there are just as many criminals. How do you propose to deal with criminals?

While you think you can just make them slaves, that in itself is also a flawed idea. The more likely scenario will be brutal deaths and barbarity, which is what everyone has been telling you for the last 78 pages.

[Dinwar]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

The difference between your system and mine, among other things, is in the obligation. In my system there is no obligation, your free, in your satanic system there is always obligation, if you don't work, you don't eat unless a good Samaritain help you, if you can't pay, you can't eat, unless someone help you and give you the food for free. With your system there is an evil tax on you, with mine none.

What you're ignoring is that THE NATURE OF REALITY dictates that if you don't work, you don't eat. All money does is make it a bit more abstract. Good Samaritans only exist in systems with surplus, as any attempt to evade reality will inevitably do--you can only ignore reality so long as you have a buffer. Your system would inevitably lead to the loss of any surplus. Thus, no Good Samaritans.

Quote:

My system is pure socialism and you don't see any socialised programs. When i talk about tax, i talk about obligation, an obligation is nothing else than an evil tax.

Remember that little line, "Render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's"? You're now contradicting your own god--not generally a good idea.

More significantly, you're ignoring the fact that most obligations people have are VOLUNTARY. A mortgage is a voluntary agreement. So is a credit card. So is an auto loan. Some of them are stupid agreements, sure--but no one puts a gun to your head and forces you to sign. What you're talking about destroying isn't taxation, but the concept of personal responsibility. THAT is why your system will fail--without personal responsibility there won't be enough surplus to generate Good Samaritans, because there's no obligation to generate a surplus.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by Joecool

Your system is based on fantasy. Sure, there are some good Samaritans around, but there are just as many criminals. How do you propose to deal with criminals?

Under a no money system, there will be no criminel since there will be no profit to make out of crime.

[RoboTimbo]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Under a no money system, there will be no criminel since there will be no profit to make out of crime.

But you said that in your society there would be police and judges. What would be the purpose of those if there is no crime?

[Joecool]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Under a no money system, there will be no criminel since there will be no profit to make out of crime.

Sure there will be. Have you ever heard of vandalism? Some people just do destructive things for fun. Even under your no money system, there will be marauders and thugs. To think everyone will be a Samaritan is pure foolishness.

[MIKILLINI]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

You don't understand, MY SYSTEM IS BASED ON GOOD SAMARITAN.

I already know what your system is based on. It doesn't diminish the fact this remains an obligatory system, something you fail to understand.

You also failed to address what I said earlier: There will be an imbalance based upon what skill/ability each person has available. Some groups of people will be over-burdened from the constant demand, creating animosity which could potentially turn into resentment. What do you suppose happens next? There will always be an imbalance with your system, no matter how you spin it.

[Tomtomkent]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Under a no money system, there will be no criminel since there will be no profit to make out of crime.

Rape, child abuse, vandalism, bullying. Are these high profit crimes?

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

The difference between your system and mine, among other things, is in the obligation. In my system there is no obligation, your free, in your satanic system there is always obligation, if you don't work, you don't eat unless a good Samaritain help you, if you can't pay, you can't eat, unless someone help you and give you the food for free. With your system there is an evil tax on you, with mine none.

I don't know why I bother, since you won't read this.

1) In your system, people will steal without consequence.

2) Obligation is not a bad thing. Freedom isn't the freedom to do whatever the hell you want.

3) You don't understand money.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

You don't seem to be aware of the various funded social programs and welfare systems. Do you live in a country with no social programs?

From his name I gather he's from Québec, which is the most socialist province of a pretty socialist country, so I have no idea what he's talking about, since I'm from there, too.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

if you don't work, you don't eat unless a good Samaritain help you.

And then...

Originally Posted by Gaetan

You don't understand, MY SYSTEM IS BASED ON GOOD SAMARITAN.

I thought that depending on samaritans was evil ?

Quote:

My system is pure socialism and you don't see any socialised programs. When i talk about tax, i talk about obligation, an obligation is nothing else than an evil tax.

Yes, I understand that you don't want to pay for other people's welfare, nor do you want to work for your privileges. That much is evident.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Under a no money system, there will be no criminel since there will be no profit to make out of crime.

Of course there is. When you kill someone, do you get money from it ? Of course not. There is still incentive for many crimes including theft, because stuff is actually still valuable.

Trust me: if you manage to install a no-money system, people will go back to bartering for a while and then once again money will appear because it's human nature. You're ignoring the reality of human existence with your proposal.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

You don't seem to be aware of the various funded social programs and welfare systems. Do you live in a country with no social programs?

He lives in a modern European country.

[RoboTimbo]

Originally Posted by dafydd

He lives in a modern European country.

Modern European countries have caves too.