Implications of Scottish Independence - Page 71

Ian Osborne · 23rd May 2012, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Craig B

"The nations" decided no such thing. That is the problem. They have never had the power to decide. It's the "King in Pariament" who decides, according to "English constitutional law". See my citation of Dicey in #2775 above. If we had some sort of federation of nations, founded upon a Treaty, all might be well, but we don't, because English constitutional law, it seems, is "incompatible with the existence of a fundamental compact".

So the monarch decides how the numbering system works, and you're complaining that the monarchs are wrongly numbered? If they made the call, how can they be?

Craig B · 23rd May 2012, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

So the monarch decides how the numbering system works, and you're complaining that the monarchs are wrongly numbered? If they made the call, how can they be?

So you concede that it's not in fact "up to the nations involved in unification" as you previously suggested.

The Fifer · 23rd May 2012, 12:31 PM

I have just been on facebook and there is a new so called neutral party "Vote365" page, if these people are nuetral them I'm really an englishman in disguise, almost every answer given is scotland is too poor to go it on our own.

Here is the link, see what you all think.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/vote365

Ian Osborne · 23rd May 2012, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Craig B

So you concede that it's not in fact "up to the nations involved in unification" as you previously suggested.

Well it's still up to the nations, whether the power of representation rests with parliament or the monarchy.

Do you still think that legally the numbers should've been reset, and if so, on what basis?

Craig B · 23rd May 2012, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

Well it's still up to the nations, whether the power of representation rests with parliament or the monarchy.

Do you still think that legally the numbers should've been reset, and if so, on what basis?

I don't care, because I don't support the continuation of the monarchy. But the numbering is yet another sign of the disregard for "Britain" and the Union which pervades the thinking of the English ruling classes. In truth, the UK has never been a country, in the sense in which people refer their nationality to a country. Until very recently its English inhabitants almost invariably called the country "England". This is not the result of ignorance or inadvertence. You may be aware that one of the most authoritative treatises on the Constitution of the UK was composed by Walter Bagehot in 1867. This work is called The English Constitution, and rightly so. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_English_Constitution But it was written 160 years after the Treaty of Union. The most revered commentator on the constitution of a "country" doesn't even know the name of that "country" 160 years after it was founded. Odd, no?

Germany was united in 1871, under Prussian suzerainty. Imagine the greatest German expert in the field writing on the subject of the German constitution 160 years later, i.e. in 2031, and calling the book The Prussian Constitution. How would that be received?

Rat · 24th May 2012, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by Craig B

Germany was united in 1871, under Prussian suzerainty. Imagine the greatest German expert in the field writing on the subject of the German constitution 160 years later, i.e. in 2031, and calling the book The Prussian Constitution. How would that be received?

I understand the football team of the Netherlands is often called "Holland", even by many Dutch people.

Craig B · 24th May 2012, 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by Rat

I understand the football team of the Netherlands is often called "Holland", even by many Dutch people.

I've often wondered about that. However, the Netherlands is a union of provinces, not countries. So they don't have seven international football teams. For my part, I always call the place "Netherlands". Another example is Switzerland, named after one of the original cantons, Schweiz. The official name of the country is the Helvetic Confederation, after some tribe, the Helvetii, which resided there two thousand years ago.

commandlinegamer · 24th May 2012, 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by Craig B

Until very recently its English inhabitants almost invariably called the country "England".

I think it's still perceived to be that by many people from around the world.

And it's still portrayed that way in the media, the big and small screen:

The trailer for the latest James Bond film, Skyfall, shows Daniel Craig in one scene performing word association. When the interviewer says "country", Bond responds with "England".

A few years further back, in Goldeneye, 007 and 006 affirm their commitment "For England".

Then there's the Michael Bay film, The Rock, in which a British former agent, Sean Connery, who it's made clear is from Glasgow, is at one point attacked by a baddie with the line "English prick! Did I tell you my old man was Irish?". What annoyed me most was that Big Tam didn't have a comeback for that. The guy who allegedly has "Scotland Forever" tattooed on his arm.

And in a Tony Hopkins' movie from the 70s, When Eight Bells Toll, set off the west coast of Scotland, his co-star Robert Morley, in response to hearing of some nefarious activities, exclaims "This is England!"

Maybe, it's just me. I'm suspicious of nationalism, and yet stuff like that still bugs me.

Rolfe · 24th May 2012, 03:39 AM

It's true that the aspect of Scotland being invisible does contribute to the way people feel. I think that was behind what Winnie Ewing said when she was first elected as an MEP.

"Stop the world, Scotland wants to get on!"

Rolfe.

Rolfe · 24th May 2012, 03:55 AM

Interesting discussion.

How to win independence with one picture

(Sorry about the size of the picture - the owner is encouraging hotlinking to it but he has made it awfully big.)

Rolfe.

Seismosaurus · 25th May 2012, 04:47 AM

Hmmm. If 14 million people get 139 MPs, then 5 million should only have 49. Seems that Scotland is considerably over-represented.

Craig B · 25th May 2012, 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by Seismosaurus

Hmmm. If 14 million people get 139 MPs, then 5 million should only have 49. Seems that Scotland is considerably over-represented.

Infinitely over-represented. The most appropriate total of Scottish MPs in Westminster is zero.

Skepticemea · 25th May 2012, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by Craig B

Infinitely over-represented. The most appropriate total of Scottish MPs in Westminster is zero.

So no representation at all? Obvious troll is obvious.

Craig B · 25th May 2012, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Skepticemea

So no representation at all? Obvious troll is obvious.

No troll. How can you think that? Representation of the people of Scotland should be in a Scottish parliament. Already, on account of the amount of governance taken up by the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh since 1997, the number of Scottish MPs has been reduced, from 72 down to the present number. That's fair. But as I want to see Scotland independent, I want ALL governance to be by the Scottish Parliament, so the just and fair figure for Westminster would be zero. Slovak voters no longer send members to a parliament in Prague. It's the same principle.

England has no parliament. That means that Scots MPs in Westminster can vote on English internal issues, but English MPs have no say in local Scottish matters. This is causing just indignation among English voters, and it simply can't go on.

Last of the Fraggles · 25th May 2012, 01:12 PM

http://www.yesscotland.net/

Yes campaign is underway.

Rat · 25th May 2012, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles

http://www.yesscotland.net/

Yes campaign is underway.

Weird opening sentence there. Don't know whether they don't know how to punctuate, or if my reading comprehension is a bit overrefreshed.

Soapy Sam · 25th May 2012, 01:54 PM

I'm not sure I see what you mean, Rat. Can you clarify?

Soapy Sam · 25th May 2012, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by commandlinegamer

Maybe, it's just me. I'm suspicious of nationalism, and yet stuff like that still bugs me.

Aye, me too. I think they're more to be pitied than scolded though.
It is annoying. I just don't think it's annoying enough to tear up the union over.

Rat · 25th May 2012, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

I'm not sure I see what you mean, Rat. Can you clarify?

I would just expect either a new sentence or, more likely, a semicolon before "that is". It just reads oddly to me, but probably wasn't worth remarking on.

Soapy Sam · 25th May 2012, 02:53 PM

Strange. I clicked the link to see what you meant. When I clicked it again now, it took me to a quite different page.
You mean the line that starts "Being independent"? Yes, it is a bit awkward.

Rat · 25th May 2012, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

Strange. I clicked the link to see what you meant. When I clicked it again now, it took me to a quite different page.
You mean the line that starts "Being independent"? Yes, it is a bit awkward.

And now when I click it, I get another page again. Most peculiar.

Tsukasa Buddha · 25th May 2012, 04:39 PM

They've already started their anglophobia with the (lack of an) Oxford comma!

The Fifer · 26th May 2012, 02:18 AM

The first page reconises your ip number so that the next time to click on the link you are taken to the next page. I think it is to stop multiple signing.

Francesca R · 26th May 2012, 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Nobody in their right mind would want to join the Euro right now.

Originally Posted by Francesca R

Why do you think that is?

Anyone have a response to this?

Craig B · 26th May 2012, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by Francesca R

Anyone have a response to this?

The instability of the Greek and Spanish economies is a sufficient reason for at least awaiting to see what happens in the medium term before making any decision to adopt the Euro. Frankly I'm against it. Previous monetary unions in Europe were based on precious metals, but the Euro is a paper currency issued by a bank which doesn't fully control the economies of the member states. And I am not suggesting that it assume such full control - I'd rather abandon the Euro, convenient though it may be.

Rolfe · 26th May 2012, 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by Seismosaurus

Hmmm. If 14 million people get 139 MPs, then 5 million should only have 49. Seems that Scotland is considerably over-represented.

Scotland used to have 72 MPs. This over-representation was written into the Treaty of Union as compensation for losing our independent parliament. Recently Westminster has been moving to eliminate that discrepancy, and in fact there will only by 50 Scottish constituencies contested in 2015.

I agree with Craig. The Scottish representation in London should be increased from 59 MPs to no MPs and one ambassador.

Skepticemea, Craig wasn't trolling. Craig was agreeing with us.

Rolfe.

Francesca R · 26th May 2012, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by Craig B

The instability of the Greek and Spanish economies is a sufficient reason for at least awaiting to see what happens in the medium term before making any decision to adopt the Euro.

It's been in existence for 13.5 years; I think this is "what happens in the medium term".

In most basic terms the distress in the euro-zone results because it is very difficult to run a monetary union without a fiscal union, and many people think the latter is not possible without some federally unified polity as well. I don't think many disagree with this diagnosis--what they tend to disagree over whether it is worth expending effort to get over the difficulties or whether to scrap it.

Yet this--monetary union without fiscal union--is exactly where an independent Scotland would be, either in a currency union with the rest of the UK or with the Euro-zone. It might not even be a monetary union with the rest of the UK--if the Bank of England, post-independence, operated monetary policy for the UK excluding Scotland (which is what it would do in the absence of a monetary union treaty)--then that's probably still more adverse for the Scottish economy.

The Greek and Spanish economies are not particularly unstable compared to the rest of Europe--unless you lock them into a currency union (and no fiscal union) with other economies with which their economic make-up is not so compatible. Post independence, and assuming an oil-territory split in line with nationalists' preference, IIRC hydrocarbons would make up 18% of Scottish GDP, and less than a couple of percent of UK ex Scotland. There are other differences too. I don't see why the arrangement would work better than it has for the EMU-17.

Quote:

Frankly I'm against it. Previous monetary unions in Europe were based on precious metals, but the Euro is a paper currency issued by a bank which doesn't fully control the economies of the member states. And I am not suggesting that it assume such full control - I'd rather abandon the Euro, convenient though it may be.

In that case, assuming you're pro-independence, you should favour the introduction of a Scottish pound that floats free of the UK one.

Craig B · 26th May 2012, 08:14 AM

Francesca R

I have no absolute preference. Links with sterling or the Euro, or a new currency; these things will require to be determined in the course of the movement towards independence, and of course the choices are determined in large part by decisions made by other agencies. What I can say is that I would not give up the idea of independence because the decision on a future currency has not been made.

Interesting history with regard to Ireland, by the way. Although it was united with Britain in 1801, its currency remained in use until 1826. Although it seceded from the UK in 1922, it had no currency of its own until 1928, and pegged its currency with sterling until 1979.

Francesca R · 26th May 2012, 08:35 AM

Currency pegs can theoretically last indefinitely, if the economy doing the pegging is not very different from the one it pegs to (I think there is a good argument that Scotland would be quite different. Not just the much higher petro-sensitivity, also the preference for higher public spending over time--although this difference could narrow from either nation's side). Or, if the pegging economy does not mind adopting the policies of the one it pegs to whenever economic divergences create market pressures (I doubt that sounds appealing to pro-independence Scots)

Nobody requires you to give up the idea of independence until/unless the currency question is resolved. Your response does, nonetheless, indicate avoidance of consideration of this particular economic issue.

As I understand things, floating/undecided folks would likely make their call on the basis of whether they were economically better or worse off though. I doubt that debate is going to happen much via preaching to the converted (on either side) about other things.

Craig B · 26th May 2012, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by Francesca R

Nobody requires you to give up the idea of independence until/unless the currency question is resolved. Your response does, nonetheless, indicate avoidance of consideration of this particular economic issue.

I have considered it often and profoundly, but I haven't resolved the issue yet.

Soapy Sam · 26th May 2012, 11:51 AM

I suggest an independent currency.
The Petrogroat.
It shall bear the likeness of a wind turbine on one side and a portrait of Eck on t'other.
The post of senior financial officer in the Indiegov shall be entitled "Heid hauder o' the Sporran".

Rolfe · 26th May 2012, 01:52 PM

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

Soapy, you're behind the ties. We are now on stage 3.

Rolfe.

Soapy Sam · 26th May 2012, 02:48 PM

ties?

Isn't one supposed to be behind one's tie?

That's an interesting one liner. I wonder how often it's true?

I'll be honest, even putting aside my preferences, I don't think you will win .

I think you might lose for the wrong reasons though, which would be a shame.

The Fifer · 27th May 2012, 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

I suggest an independent currency.
The Petrogroat.
It shall bear the likeness of a wind turbine on one side and a portrait of Eck on t'other.
The post of senior financial officer in the Indiegov shall be entitled "Heid hauder o' the Sporran".

I prefer the Muckle it has 100 Mickles,you know many a mickle makes a muckle. The symbol for this would be an Capitol "A" with a thistle along side it.

Rolfe · 27th May 2012, 03:42 AM

I just don't think sneering and belittling is much of an argument, and I find it quite sad when the sneering and belittling is being done by Scots themselves. There are plenty countries around not significantly bigger than Scotland (either by population or land area) and with no greater resources than Scotland. Why is the very idea of Scotland as an independent state a subject for mockery?

Get some actual arguments.

Oh, and blind assertions that the referendum will be lost ain't a substitute for argument either.

Rolfe.

Soapy Sam · 27th May 2012, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by The Fifer

I prefer the Muckle it has 100 Mickles,you know many a mickle makes a muckle. The symbol for this would be an Capitol "A" with a thistle along side it.

As I understand it, "Mickle" and "muckle" are the same thing.
Mony a pickle mak a mickle.

Soapy Sam · 27th May 2012, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I just don't think sneering and belittling is much of an argument, and I find it quite sad when the sneering and belittling is being done by Scots themselves. There are plenty countries around not significantly bigger than Scotland (either by population or land area) and with no greater resources than Scotland. Why is the very idea of Scotland as an independent state a subject for mockery?

Get some actual arguments.

Oh, and blind assertions that the referendum will be lost ain't a substitute for argument either.

Rolfe.

I find it sad when light humour is characterised as "sneering and belittling."

I accept there has been sneering and belittling in the press and from MPs and the like - and I agree that's not a legitimate criticism- and I even accept that this can get very annoying- I've said myself that Cameron's dimmer attacks are more likely to make a separatist of me than anything Salmond has to say- but we don't have to be totally po-faced about things surely? If there's one thing Scots truly are good at, it's laughing at ourselves. Sometimes, indeed, too good.

- and is "I'll be honest, even putting aside my preferences, I don't think you will win ." a "blind assertion"? Truly? Not an opinion just like yours?

Rolfe · 27th May 2012, 02:48 PM

Sorry, but your "light humour" is in fact indistinguishable from the sneering and belittling I have read all too much of over the past year.

Rolfe.

Francesca R · 27th May 2012, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Get some actual arguments.

That's a bit rich. You have not responded to the economic arguments I brought up here, right after acknowledging that the economic/financial issue is likely to be what sways undecided voters. Substituting that debate with appeals against the tyranny of westminster is probably not the best tactic to carry a referendum.

funk de fino · 28th May 2012, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by Francesca R

It's been in existence for 13.5 years; I think this is "what happens in the medium term".

That would be a once in a lifetime global financial collapse then?

Yes, lets all plan based on that happening every 13 years. Your sideshow is obvious.

23rd May 2012, 11:55 AM	#2801
Ian Osborne JREF Kid Tagger Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Wiltshire Posts: 6,383	Originally Posted by Craig B "The nations" decided no such thing. That is the problem. They have never had the power to decide. It's the "King in Pariament" who decides, according to "English constitutional law". See my citation of Dicey in #2775 above. If we had some sort of federation of nations, founded upon a Treaty, all might be well, but we don't, because English constitutional law, it seems, is "incompatible with the existence of a fundamental compact". So the monarch decides how the numbering system works, and you're complaining that the monarchs are wrongly numbered? If they made the call, how can they be?
	__________________ "Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine "The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan

23rd May 2012, 12:21 PM	#2802
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,923	Originally Posted by Ian Osborne So the monarch decides how the numbering system works, and you're complaining that the monarchs are wrongly numbered? If they made the call, how can they be? So you concede that it's not in fact "up to the nations involved in unification" as you previously suggested.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,923

23rd May 2012, 12:31 PM	#2803
The Fifer Scholar Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Fife, Scotland. Posts: 80	I have just been on facebook and there is a new so called neutral party "Vote365" page, if these people are nuetral them I'm really an englishman in disguise, almost every answer given is scotland is too poor to go it on our own. Here is the link, see what you all think. http://www.facebook.com/#!/vote365
	__________________ William.... I tried to keep my head down and not be noticed but Scotland needs me.

23rd May 2012, 12:53 PM	#2804
Ian Osborne JREF Kid Tagger Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Wiltshire Posts: 6,383	Originally Posted by Craig B So you concede that it's not in fact "up to the nations involved in unification" as you previously suggested. Well it's still up to the nations, whether the power of representation rests with parliament or the monarchy. Do you still think that legally the numbers should've been reset, and if so, on what basis?
	__________________ "Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine "The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan

23rd May 2012, 10:33 PM	#2805
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,923	Originally Posted by Ian Osborne Well it's still up to the nations, whether the power of representation rests with parliament or the monarchy. Do you still think that legally the numbers should've been reset, and if so, on what basis? I don't care, because I don't support the continuation of the monarchy. But the numbering is yet another sign of the disregard for "Britain" and the Union which pervades the thinking of the English ruling classes. In truth, the UK has never been a country, in the sense in which people refer their nationality to a country. Until very recently its English inhabitants almost invariably called the country "England". This is not the result of ignorance or inadvertence. You may be aware that one of the most authoritative treatises on the Constitution of the UK was composed by Walter Bagehot in 1867. This work is called The English Constitution, and rightly so. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_English_Constitution But it was written 160 years after the Treaty of Union. The most revered commentator on the constitution of a "country" doesn't even know the name of that "country" 160 years after it was founded. Odd, no? Germany was united in 1871, under Prussian suzerainty. Imagine the greatest German expert in the field writing on the subject of the German constitution 160 years later, i.e. in 2031, and calling the book The Prussian Constitution. How would that be received?
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,923

24th May 2012, 12:33 AM	#2806
Rat Not bored. Never bored. Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Leicester, UK Posts: 7,051	Originally Posted by Craig B Germany was united in 1871, under Prussian suzerainty. Imagine the greatest German expert in the field writing on the subject of the German constitution 160 years later, i.e. in 2031, and calling the book The Prussian Constitution. How would that be received? I understand the football team of the Netherlands is often called "Holland", even by many Dutch people.
	__________________ "Man muß den Menschen vor allem nach seinen Lastern beurteilen. Tugenden können vorgetäuscht sein. Laster sind echt." - Klaus Kinski UKLS 1988- Sitting on the fence throwing stones at both sides.

24th May 2012, 01:01 AM	#2807
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,923	Originally Posted by Rat I understand the football team of the Netherlands is often called "Holland", even by many Dutch people. I've often wondered about that. However, the Netherlands is a union of provinces, not countries. So they don't have seven international football teams. For my part, I always call the place "Netherlands". Another example is Switzerland, named after one of the original cantons, Schweiz. The official name of the country is the Helvetic Confederation, after some tribe, the Helvetii, which resided there two thousand years ago.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,923

24th May 2012, 01:25 AM	#2808
commandlinegamer Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mazes of Menace Posts: 5,891	Originally Posted by Craig B Until very recently its English inhabitants almost invariably called the country "England". I think it's still perceived to be that by many people from around the world. And it's still portrayed that way in the media, the big and small screen: The trailer for the latest James Bond film, Skyfall, shows Daniel Craig in one scene performing word association. When the interviewer says "country", Bond responds with "England". A few years further back, in Goldeneye, 007 and 006 affirm their commitment "For England". Then there's the Michael Bay film, The Rock, in which a British former agent, Sean Connery, who it's made clear is from Glasgow, is at one point attacked by a baddie with the line "English prick! Did I tell you my old man was Irish?". What annoyed me most was that Big Tam didn't have a comeback for that. The guy who allegedly has "Scotland Forever" tattooed on his arm. And in a Tony Hopkins' movie from the 70s, When Eight Bells Toll, set off the west coast of Scotland, his co-star Robert Morley, in response to hearing of some nefarious activities, exclaims "This is England!" Maybe, it's just me. I'm suspicious of nationalism, and yet stuff like that still bugs me.
	__________________ He bade me take any rug in the house. Last edited by commandlinegamer; 24th May 2012 at 01:28 AM.

24th May 2012, 03:39 AM	#2809
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,325	It's true that the aspect of Scotland being invisible does contribute to the way people feel. I think that was behind what Winnie Ewing said when she was first elected as an MEP. "Stop the world, Scotland wants to get on!" Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

24th May 2012, 03:55 AM	#2810
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,325	Interesting discussion. How to win independence with one picture (Sorry about the size of the picture - the owner is encouraging hotlinking to it but he has made it awfully big.) Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. Last edited by Rolfe; 24th May 2012 at 03:57 AM.

25th May 2012, 04:47 AM	#2811
Seismosaurus Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Banbury Posts: 3,543	Hmmm. If 14 million people get 139 MPs, then 5 million should only have 49. Seems that Scotland is considerably over-represented.
	__________________ Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal She carries beauty in her soul

25th May 2012, 05:39 AM	#2812
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,923	Originally Posted by Seismosaurus Hmmm. If 14 million people get 139 MPs, then 5 million should only have 49. Seems that Scotland is considerably over-represented. Infinitely over-represented. The most appropriate total of Scottish MPs in Westminster is zero.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,923

25th May 2012, 08:19 AM	#2813
Skepticemea Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: London, UK Posts: 2,277	Originally Posted by Craig B Infinitely over-represented. The most appropriate total of Scottish MPs in Westminster is zero. So no representation at all? Obvious troll is obvious.
	__________________ Eat ****, coprophage!

25th May 2012, 08:35 AM	#2814
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,923	Originally Posted by Skepticemea So no representation at all? Obvious troll is obvious. No troll. How can you think that? Representation of the people of Scotland should be in a Scottish parliament. Already, on account of the amount of governance taken up by the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh since 1997, the number of Scottish MPs has been reduced, from 72 down to the present number. That's fair. But as I want to see Scotland independent, I want ALL governance to be by the Scottish Parliament, so the just and fair figure for Westminster would be zero. Slovak voters no longer send members to a parliament in Prague. It's the same principle. England has no parliament. That means that Scots MPs in Westminster can vote on English internal issues, but English MPs have no say in local Scottish matters. This is causing just indignation among English voters, and it simply can't go on.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,923

25th May 2012, 01:12 PM	#2815
Last of the Fraggles Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,355	http://www.yesscotland.net/ Yes campaign is underway.

25th May 2012, 01:20 PM	#2816
Rat Not bored. Never bored. Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Leicester, UK Posts: 7,051	Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles http://www.yesscotland.net/ Yes campaign is underway. Weird opening sentence there. Don't know whether they don't know how to punctuate, or if my reading comprehension is a bit overrefreshed.
	__________________ "Man muß den Menschen vor allem nach seinen Lastern beurteilen. Tugenden können vorgetäuscht sein. Laster sind echt." - Klaus Kinski UKLS 1988- Sitting on the fence throwing stones at both sides.

25th May 2012, 01:54 PM	#2817
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	I'm not sure I see what you mean, Rat. Can you clarify?
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

25th May 2012, 02:14 PM	#2818
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Originally Posted by commandlinegamer Maybe, it's just me. I'm suspicious of nationalism, and yet stuff like that still bugs me. Aye, me too. I think they're more to be pitied than scolded though. It is annoying. I just don't think it's annoying enough to tear up the union over.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

25th May 2012, 02:22 PM	#2819
Rat Not bored. Never bored. Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Leicester, UK Posts: 7,051	Originally Posted by Soapy Sam I'm not sure I see what you mean, Rat. Can you clarify? I would just expect either a new sentence or, more likely, a semicolon before "that is". It just reads oddly to me, but probably wasn't worth remarking on.
	__________________ "Man muß den Menschen vor allem nach seinen Lastern beurteilen. Tugenden können vorgetäuscht sein. Laster sind echt." - Klaus Kinski UKLS 1988- Sitting on the fence throwing stones at both sides.

25th May 2012, 02:53 PM	#2820
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Strange. I clicked the link to see what you meant. When I clicked it again now, it took me to a quite different page. You mean the line that starts "Being independent"? Yes, it is a bit awkward.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

25th May 2012, 02:56 PM	#2821
Rat Not bored. Never bored. Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Leicester, UK Posts: 7,051	Originally Posted by Soapy Sam Strange. I clicked the link to see what you meant. When I clicked it again now, it took me to a quite different page. You mean the line that starts "Being independent"? Yes, it is a bit awkward. And now when I click it, I get another page again. Most peculiar.
	__________________ "Man muß den Menschen vor allem nach seinen Lastern beurteilen. Tugenden können vorgetäuscht sein. Laster sind echt." - Klaus Kinski UKLS 1988- Sitting on the fence throwing stones at both sides.

25th May 2012, 04:39 PM	#2822
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,899	They've already started their anglophobia with the (lack of an) Oxford comma!
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

26th May 2012, 02:18 AM	#2823
The Fifer Scholar Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Fife, Scotland. Posts: 80	The first page reconises your ip number so that the next time to click on the link you are taken to the next page. I think it is to stop multiple signing.
	__________________ William.... I tried to keep my head down and not be noticed but Scotland needs me.

26th May 2012, 02:24 AM	#2824
Francesca R Girl Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London EC1 Posts: 11,825	Originally Posted by Rolfe Nobody in their right mind would want to join the Euro right now. Originally Posted by Francesca R Why do you think that is? Anyone have a response to this?

26th May 2012, 03:27 AM	#2825
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,923	Originally Posted by Francesca R Anyone have a response to this? The instability of the Greek and Spanish economies is a sufficient reason for at least awaiting to see what happens in the medium term before making any decision to adopt the Euro. Frankly I'm against it. Previous monetary unions in Europe were based on precious metals, but the Euro is a paper currency issued by a bank which doesn't fully control the economies of the member states. And I am not suggesting that it assume such full control - I'd rather abandon the Euro, convenient though it may be.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,923

26th May 2012, 04:17 AM	#2826
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,325	Originally Posted by Seismosaurus Hmmm. If 14 million people get 139 MPs, then 5 million should only have 49. Seems that Scotland is considerably over-represented. Scotland used to have 72 MPs. This over-representation was written into the Treaty of Union as compensation for losing our independent parliament. Recently Westminster has been moving to eliminate that discrepancy, and in fact there will only by 50 Scottish constituencies contested in 2015. I agree with Craig. The Scottish representation in London should be increased from 59 MPs to no MPs and one ambassador. Skepticemea, Craig wasn't trolling. Craig was agreeing with us. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

26th May 2012, 06:09 AM	#2827
Francesca R Girl Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London EC1 Posts: 11,825	Originally Posted by Craig B The instability of the Greek and Spanish economies is a sufficient reason for at least awaiting to see what happens in the medium term before making any decision to adopt the Euro. It's been in existence for 13.5 years; I think this is "what happens in the medium term". In most basic terms the distress in the euro-zone results because it is very difficult to run a monetary union without a fiscal union, and many people think the latter is not possible without some federally unified polity as well. I don't think many disagree with this diagnosis--what they tend to disagree over whether it is worth expending effort to get over the difficulties or whether to scrap it. Yet this--monetary union without fiscal union--is exactly where an independent Scotland would be, either in a currency union with the rest of the UK or with the Euro-zone. It might not even be a monetary union with the rest of the UK--if the Bank of England, post-independence, operated monetary policy for the UK excluding Scotland (which is what it would do in the absence of a monetary union treaty)--then that's probably still more adverse for the Scottish economy. The Greek and Spanish economies are not particularly unstable compared to the rest of Europe--unless you lock them into a currency union (and no fiscal union) with other economies with which their economic make-up is not so compatible. Post independence, and assuming an oil-territory split in line with nationalists' preference, IIRC hydrocarbons would make up 18% of Scottish GDP, and less than a couple of percent of UK ex Scotland. There are other differences too. I don't see why the arrangement would work better than it has for the EMU-17. Quote: Frankly I'm against it. Previous monetary unions in Europe were based on precious metals, but the Euro is a paper currency issued by a bank which doesn't fully control the economies of the member states. And I am not suggesting that it assume such full control - I'd rather abandon the Euro, convenient though it may be. In that case, assuming you're pro-independence, you should favour the introduction of a Scottish pound that floats free of the UK one.
	Last edited by Francesca R; 26th May 2012 at 06:11 AM.

26th May 2012, 08:14 AM	#2828
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,923	Francesca R I have no absolute preference. Links with sterling or the Euro, or a new currency; these things will require to be determined in the course of the movement towards independence, and of course the choices are determined in large part by decisions made by other agencies. What I can say is that I would not give up the idea of independence because the decision on a future currency has not been made. Interesting history with regard to Ireland, by the way. Although it was united with Britain in 1801, its currency remained in use until 1826. Although it seceded from the UK in 1922, it had no currency of its own until 1928, and pegged its currency with sterling until 1979.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,923

26th May 2012, 08:35 AM	#2829
Francesca R Girl Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London EC1 Posts: 11,825	Currency pegs can theoretically last indefinitely, if the economy doing the pegging is not very different from the one it pegs to (I think there is a good argument that Scotland would be quite different. Not just the much higher petro-sensitivity, also the preference for higher public spending over time--although this difference could narrow from either nation's side). Or, if the pegging economy does not mind adopting the policies of the one it pegs to whenever economic divergences create market pressures (I doubt that sounds appealing to pro-independence Scots) Nobody requires you to give up the idea of independence until/unless the currency question is resolved. Your response does, nonetheless, indicate avoidance of consideration of this particular economic issue. As I understand things, floating/undecided folks would likely make their call on the basis of whether they were economically better or worse off though. I doubt that debate is going to happen much via preaching to the converted (on either side) about other things.
	Last edited by Francesca R; 26th May 2012 at 08:37 AM.

26th May 2012, 09:16 AM	#2830
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,923	Originally Posted by Francesca R Nobody requires you to give up the idea of independence until/unless the currency question is resolved. Your response does, nonetheless, indicate avoidance of consideration of this particular economic issue. I have considered it often and profoundly, but I haven't resolved the issue yet.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,923

26th May 2012, 11:51 AM	#2831
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	I suggest an independent currency. The Petrogroat. It shall bear the likeness of a wind turbine on one side and a portrait of Eck on t'other. The post of senior financial officer in the Indiegov shall be entitled "Heid hauder o' the Sporran".
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

26th May 2012, 01:52 PM	#2832
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,325	First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. Soapy, you're behind the ties. We are now on stage 3. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

26th May 2012, 02:48 PM	#2833
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	ties? Isn't one supposed to be behind one's tie? That's an interesting one liner. I wonder how often it's true? I'll be honest, even putting aside my preferences, I don't think you will win . I think you might lose for the wrong reasons though, which would be a shame.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

27th May 2012, 02:14 AM	#2834
The Fifer Scholar Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Fife, Scotland. Posts: 80	Originally Posted by Soapy Sam I suggest an independent currency. The Petrogroat. It shall bear the likeness of a wind turbine on one side and a portrait of Eck on t'other. The post of senior financial officer in the Indiegov shall be entitled "Heid hauder o' the Sporran". I prefer the Muckle it has 100 Mickles,you know many a mickle makes a muckle. The symbol for this would be an Capitol "A" with a thistle along side it.
	__________________ William.... I tried to keep my head down and not be noticed but Scotland needs me.

27th May 2012, 03:42 AM	#2835
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,325	I just don't think sneering and belittling is much of an argument, and I find it quite sad when the sneering and belittling is being done by Scots themselves. There are plenty countries around not significantly bigger than Scotland (either by population or land area) and with no greater resources than Scotland. Why is the very idea of Scotland as an independent state a subject for mockery? Get some actual arguments. Oh, and blind assertions that the referendum will be lost ain't a substitute for argument either. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.