Stand Your Ground (licence to kill)? - Page 16

RandFan · 6th April 2012, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by The Dark Lord

Quote:

Don't tell the police that. Remember, you were in fear of your life. Even when he was on his knees and looking the other way.

Oh, of course. He was going for the gun.

With SYG you can go hunting for pieces of **** nightly.

The Dark Lord · 6th April 2012, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Thank you. That's two. I think most people fail to understand that human empathy is not monolithic and there are people who are not opposed to summary execution and cruel and unusual punishment. I would argue to those who are opposed to taking the law into their own hands that we ought not make it easier to for people to play judge, jury and executioner without consequence.

Technically, I suppose it would be murder. But it would be easy to get away with. I would just have to say he was going for my gun or something. I wouldn't even be arrested.

If you want to change that, well, good luck on your efforts to give benefit of the doubt to some piece of **** caught in the act of rape.

RandFan · 6th April 2012, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by The Dark Lord

Technically, I suppose it would be murder. But it would be easy to get away with.

And you don't have to put up with all that military nonsense. Sounds fun and not a lot of risk.

The Dark Lord · 6th April 2012, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

And you don't have to put up with all that military nonsense. Sounds fun and not a lot of risk.

I wouldn't be do it because I think it would be fun (I don't). But because pieces of **** rapists deserve to die and because the world is better place with them dead.

RandFan · 6th April 2012, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by The Dark Lord

I wouldn't be do it because I think it would be fun (I don't). But because pieces of **** rapists deserve to die and because the world is better place with them dead.

Okay, perhaps not fun but you gotta admit it would be deeply satisfying right?

The Dark Lord · 6th April 2012, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Okay, perhaps not fun but you gotta admit it would be deeply satisfying right? I'm not encouraging criminal behavior but it would be satisfying to cruise the night killing bad people. If you could get away with it why not? You would do that wouldn't you? What about torturing them? Do you fantasize about that also?

Satisfying the sense that I would feel that I did a good thing.

And I have no desire to seek out pieces of **** to kill. But if one breaks into my *********** house and rapes someone that I care about, yeah, I am going to kill him.

RandFan · 7th April 2012, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by The Dark Lord

Satisfying the sense that I would feel that I did a good thing.

And I have no desire to seek out pieces of **** to kill. But if one breaks into my *********** house and rapes someone that I care about, yeah, I am going to kill him.

Thanks. You are probably a better person than I. I've no desire to kill anyone. I don't think killing someone is a good thing. It's probably just me though.

BTW: I edited my post with the torture and stuff because that was unfair and uncalled for. I regret having posted that and I apologize.

The Dark Lord · 7th April 2012, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Thanks. You are probably a better person than I. I've no desire to kill anyone. I don't think killing someone is a good thing. It's probably just me though.

BTW: I edited my post with the torture and stuff because that was unfair and uncalled for. I regret having posted that and I apologize.

Don't worry about it.

fuelair · 7th April 2012, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Thanks. You are probably a better person than I. I've no desire to kill anyone. I don't think killing someone is a good thing. It's probably just me though.

.

Not better or worse, just different. And, it's not just you. I think things that harm/try to harm innocent people need to be permanently removed from any place/universe where they can do that. I distinguish personhood by that standard. I do not dislike people who do not agree with that standard but I choose to operate by it - even if the innocent person doesn't wish me to. I have religious friends, I have friends who do not believe in the death penalty ( and one at least who is not big on incarceration). I have no problem with their beliefs - I like the people as people. OR: good people are good people. Their actions tend to demonstrate that whatever they believe.

fuelair · 7th April 2012, 01:51 PM

In all fairness I should add - there are also people who act in certain ways that put them in a related category: persons who I have no desire to kill BUT if they leave this plane of existence I am untroubled in any slight way by their leaving of it.

RandFan · 7th April 2012, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by fuelair

Not better or worse, just different. And, it's not just you. I think things that harm/try to harm innocent people need to be permanently removed from any place/universe where they can do that. I distinguish personhood by that standard. I do not dislike people who do not agree with that standard but I choose to operate by it - even if the innocent person doesn't wish me to. I have religious friends, I have friends who do not believe in the death penalty ( and one at least who is not big on incarceration). I have no problem with their beliefs - I like the people as people. OR: good people are good people. Their actions tend to demonstrate that whatever they believe.

Originally Posted by fuelair

In all fairness I should add - there are also people who act in certain ways that put them in a related category: persons who I have no desire to kill BUT if they leave this plane of existence I am untroubled in any slight way by their leaving of it.

The "better than" comment was rhetorical on my part. I know better. I was being snarky. And yeah, I understand that people are different. I've been studying mind sciences and human behavior for sometime. It's important to note that such sentiments are in part genetic predisposition but they are very much also environmental. I can accept that people are different but I also understand that change is possible. I've changed much of my perspective. I've had thoughts of revenge. It's not beyond me. I think that was my default when I was younger.

Having learned about the criminal mind and and learning about the difference between retributive justice and restorative justice, and the effects of South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission, I don't typically think that way anymore. I subscribe to Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's thesis that evil resides in all of our hearts. This idea that a person is either good or bad and that he or she deserves death for committing a crime I find irrational. It doesn't appeal to the better angels of our nature.

BStrong · 7th April 2012, 07:05 PM

My prediction, fwiw.

Zimmerman is going to end up being indicted, for second degree murder or manslaughter, SYG or not.

The one question I would really like to see answered at this point is how many of the previous 46 calls that Zimmerman made to 911 resulted in arrest, or resulted in an actual criminal investigation.

Xulld · 9th April 2012, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Kestrel

It's interesting how burglars running across Joe Horn's lawn gets twisted into running at Joe Horn.

Did you see it? Is there some place I can watch what happened for myself?

So far all I can go on is the detective who was sitting in his car who watched it, and what he said.

Originally Posted by Kestrel

So Texas does allow the use of deadly force to protect properly. Otherwise Joe Horn the idiot with a shotgun would have been charged with manslaughter.

The claim made earlier that various Supreme Court cases had found Texas statute 9.42 unconstitutional doesn't hold up.

Why would it have gone to court, and why would the detectives testimony have mattered if you can kill over property?

BStrong · 11th April 2012, 03:23 PM

Looks like I was right.

Cylinder · 25th May 2012, 06:16 PM

It's really more a castle doctrine issue, but....

Boulder DA: No charges against homeowner who shot intruder, CU student Zoey Ripple, 21

Quote:

Citing the "make my day" law, officials announced Thursday that no charges will be filed against the man who shot Zoey Ripple, 21, after police say she drunkenly entered his home early Wednesday.

The Boulder County District Attorney's Office said prosecutors will decide in the next few days whether to file any trespassing or other charges against Ripple, who is listed as a University of Colorado student majoring in speech, language and hearing sciences.

...

Police said the husband and wife were in bed when they heard noises outside their exterior bedroom door at 3:30 a.m. Wednesday. The screen door was closed but unlocked.

In the darkness, they shouted to warn the intruder to leave and that they had a gun, but Ripple continued walking through the bedroom, and Justice fired one shot, police said.

When the homeowners turned on the lights, they saw Ripple on the floor with a gunshot wound to her hip and called 911, police said. They said they did not recognize her as anyone they knew.

Semi-hot coed, blindly drunk, headed for your bed...and you go for your handgun???

Oh, wait, the signifigant other was there...

bynmdsue · 25th May 2012, 06:33 PM

I think they can pass on the trepassing charges, she's hopefully learned her lesson.

6th April 2012, 10:45 PM	#601
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by The Dark Lord Quote: Don't tell the police that. Remember, you were in fear of your life. Even when he was on his knees and looking the other way. Oh, of course. He was going for the gun. With SYG you can go hunting for pieces of **** nightly.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

6th April 2012, 10:50 PM	#602
The Dark Lord Suspended Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,860	Originally Posted by RandFan Thank you. That's two. I think most people fail to understand that human empathy is not monolithic and there are people who are not opposed to summary execution and cruel and unusual punishment. I would argue to those who are opposed to taking the law into their own hands that we ought not make it easier to for people to play judge, jury and executioner without consequence. Technically, I suppose it would be murder. But it would be easy to get away with. I would just have to say he was going for my gun or something. I wouldn't even be arrested. If you want to change that, well, good luck on your efforts to give benefit of the doubt to some piece of **** caught in the act of rape.
The Dark Lord Suspended Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,860

6th April 2012, 11:03 PM	#603
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by The Dark Lord Technically, I suppose it would be murder. But it would be easy to get away with. And you don't have to put up with all that military nonsense. Sounds fun and not a lot of risk.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

6th April 2012, 11:30 PM	#604
The Dark Lord Suspended Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,860	Originally Posted by RandFan And you don't have to put up with all that military nonsense. Sounds fun and not a lot of risk. I wouldn't be do it because I think it would be fun (I don't). But because pieces of **** rapists deserve to die and because the world is better place with them dead.
The Dark Lord Suspended Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,860

6th April 2012, 11:54 PM	#605
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by The Dark Lord I wouldn't be do it because I think it would be fun (I don't). But because pieces of **** rapists deserve to die and because the world is better place with them dead. Okay, perhaps not fun but you gotta admit it would be deeply satisfying right?
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith Last edited by RandFan; 6th April 2012 at 11:58 PM.

6th April 2012, 11:59 PM	#606
The Dark Lord Suspended Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,860	Originally Posted by RandFan Okay, perhaps not fun but you gotta admit it would be deeply satisfying right? I'm not encouraging criminal behavior but it would be satisfying to cruise the night killing bad people. If you could get away with it why not? You would do that wouldn't you? What about torturing them? Do you fantasize about that also? Satisfying the sense that I would feel that I did a good thing. And I have no desire to seek out pieces of ** to kill. But if one breaks into my ********* house and rapes someone that I care about, yeah, I am going to kill him.
The Dark Lord Suspended Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,860

7th April 2012, 12:14 AM	#607
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by The Dark Lord Satisfying the sense that I would feel that I did a good thing. And I have no desire to seek out pieces of ** to kill. But if one breaks into my ********* house and rapes someone that I care about, yeah, I am going to kill him. Thanks. You are probably a better person than I. I've no desire to kill anyone. I don't think killing someone is a good thing. It's probably just me though. BTW: I edited my post with the torture and stuff because that was unfair and uncalled for. I regret having posted that and I apologize.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

7th April 2012, 12:21 AM	#608
The Dark Lord Suspended Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,860	Originally Posted by RandFan Thanks. You are probably a better person than I. I've no desire to kill anyone. I don't think killing someone is a good thing. It's probably just me though. BTW: I edited my post with the torture and stuff because that was unfair and uncalled for. I regret having posted that and I apologize. Don't worry about it.
The Dark Lord Suspended Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,860

7th April 2012, 01:48 PM	#609
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,881	Originally Posted by RandFan Thanks. You are probably a better person than I. I've no desire to kill anyone. I don't think killing someone is a good thing. It's probably just me though. . Not better or worse, just different. And, it's not just you. I think things that harm/try to harm innocent people need to be permanently removed from any place/universe where they can do that. I distinguish personhood by that standard. I do not dislike people who do not agree with that standard but I choose to operate by it - even if the innocent person doesn't wish me to. I have religious friends, I have friends who do not believe in the death penalty ( and one at least who is not big on incarceration). I have no problem with their beliefs - I like the people as people. OR: good people are good people. Their actions tend to demonstrate that whatever they believe.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,881	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

7th April 2012, 01:51 PM	#610
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,881	In all fairness I should add - there are also people who act in certain ways that put them in a related category: persons who I have no desire to kill BUT if they leave this plane of existence I am untroubled in any slight way by their leaving of it.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,881	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

7th April 2012, 06:21 PM	#611
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by fuelair Not better or worse, just different. And, it's not just you. I think things that harm/try to harm innocent people need to be permanently removed from any place/universe where they can do that. I distinguish personhood by that standard. I do not dislike people who do not agree with that standard but I choose to operate by it - even if the innocent person doesn't wish me to. I have religious friends, I have friends who do not believe in the death penalty ( and one at least who is not big on incarceration). I have no problem with their beliefs - I like the people as people. OR: good people are good people. Their actions tend to demonstrate that whatever they believe. Originally Posted by fuelair In all fairness I should add - there are also people who act in certain ways that put them in a related category: persons who I have no desire to kill BUT if they leave this plane of existence I am untroubled in any slight way by their leaving of it. The "better than" comment was rhetorical on my part. I know better. I was being snarky. And yeah, I understand that people are different. I've been studying mind sciences and human behavior for sometime. It's important to note that such sentiments are in part genetic predisposition but they are very much also environmental. I can accept that people are different but I also understand that change is possible. I've changed much of my perspective. I've had thoughts of revenge. It's not beyond me. I think that was my default when I was younger. Having learned about the criminal mind and and learning about the difference between retributive justice and restorative justice, and the effects of South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission, I don't typically think that way anymore. I subscribe to Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's thesis that evil resides in all of our hearts. This idea that a person is either good or bad and that he or she deserves death for committing a crime I find irrational. It doesn't appeal to the better angels of our nature.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith Last edited by RandFan; 7th April 2012 at 06:23 PM.

7th April 2012, 07:05 PM	#612
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 3,781	My prediction, fwiw. Zimmerman is going to end up being indicted, for second degree murder or manslaughter, SYG or not. The one question I would really like to see answered at this point is how many of the previous 46 calls that Zimmerman made to 911 resulted in arrest, or resulted in an actual criminal investigation.

9th April 2012, 10:09 AM	#613
Xulld Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 1,102	Originally Posted by Kestrel It's interesting how burglars running across Joe Horn's lawn gets twisted into running at Joe Horn. Did you see it? Is there some place I can watch what happened for myself? So far all I can go on is the detective who was sitting in his car who watched it, and what he said. Originally Posted by Kestrel So Texas does allow the use of deadly force to protect properly. Otherwise Joe Horn the idiot with a shotgun would have been charged with manslaughter. The claim made earlier that various Supreme Court cases had found Texas statute 9.42 unconstitutional doesn't hold up. Why would it have gone to court, and why would the detectives testimony have mattered if you can kill over property?
	Last edited by Xulld; 9th April 2012 at 10:13 AM.

11th April 2012, 03:23 PM	#614
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 3,781	Looks like I was right.

25th May 2012, 06:16 PM	#615
Cylinder Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,834	It's really more a castle doctrine issue, but.... Boulder DA: No charges against homeowner who shot intruder, CU student Zoey Ripple, 21 Quote: Citing the "make my day" law, officials announced Thursday that no charges will be filed against the man who shot Zoey Ripple, 21, after police say she drunkenly entered his home early Wednesday. The Boulder County District Attorney's Office said prosecutors will decide in the next few days whether to file any trespassing or other charges against Ripple, who is listed as a University of Colorado student majoring in speech, language and hearing sciences. ... Police said the husband and wife were in bed when they heard noises outside their exterior bedroom door at 3:30 a.m. Wednesday. The screen door was closed but unlocked. In the darkness, they shouted to warn the intruder to leave and that they had a gun, but Ripple continued walking through the bedroom, and Justice fired one shot, police said. When the homeowners turned on the lights, they saw Ripple on the floor with a gunshot wound to her hip and called 911, police said. They said they did not recognize her as anyone they knew. Semi-hot coed, blindly drunk, headed for your bed...and you go for your handgun??? Oh, wait, the signifigant other was there...
	__________________ If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed ; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves. - Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm

25th May 2012, 06:33 PM	#616
bynmdsue Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,385	I think they can pass on the trepassing charges, she's hopefully learned her lesson.