Is Higher-Level Math needed for everyone?

derchin · 27th May 2012, 10:57 AM

I had this discussion over at another forum and I asserted that it isn't necessarily needed for everyone and that everyone's careers require something else, something more specific, other than math. The member replied that higher level math is required if you actually want to achieve something.

Agree? Disagree?

crimresearch · 27th May 2012, 11:16 AM

Higher than what?

Most folks who aren't going into careers in mathemetics, et al. could still benefit from more than arithmetic skills.
Algebra and geometry for instance, and the basics of statistics.

Calculus? Not so much. That's what we've got Wolfram for...

Mehdimentio · 27th May 2012, 11:25 AM

The intellectual exercise is in itself beneficial.

I Ratant · 27th May 2012, 11:30 AM

Achieve what?
A comfortable retirement?
Municipal building named after you?
New disease with your name?
Remembered as a good person after death?
Remembered as one of the all time great mass murderers?
Math skills need not affect any of these.

baron · 27th May 2012, 11:37 AM

Self evidently this is not the case. In fact, I'd suggest that if you took X multi-millionaire business owners and compared them with X office workers on average wage, the latter group would fare better in academic and intelligence tests. This is no accident because a lack of education / opportunity and poor prospects often provides the drive to work hard, take risks and succeed.

derchin · 27th May 2012, 11:37 AM

The discussion:
http://forums.school-survival.net/sh....php?tid=25206

Bikewer · 27th May 2012, 11:47 AM

If as some suspect math skills are part of the individual "talents" one might posess, then some folks are deficient.
I am among the "innumerate", as they say.... My "basic skills" test charts look like a pretty level line in the highest percentiles... Until you get to math where a very sharp dip is observed....
I maintain that in high school, I got to Algebra I and never even learned what a "set" was. The teacher mentioned "quadratic equation" and thereafter it was all Greek to me....

Never have felt the lack. I've been in police work for 40+ years and never once in that time has my lack of math skills been the slightest hindrance.

Jorghnassen · 27th May 2012, 12:54 PM

Math skills are problem solving skills, and relate to the capability of thinking abstractly and logically. In that sense, those are important for everyone. However, for those who cannot understand that and only study it at the surface level as required by the curriculum and as it is often unfortunately taught, yeah, the "higher" level stuff is useless. Computations and epsilon-delta proofs aren't that applicable in real-life situations, and the mechanical stuff can of course be done by computers.

JJM 777 · 27th May 2012, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by derchin

higher level math is required if you actually want to achieve something.

Math is useless in MBA studies.... the boss doesn´t need to do the math himself, he just hires someone who understands math.

I imagine that there are other reasons than math itself for having it as a requirement in some studies. For example, using it to sift out mediocre logical thinkers, to get only the smartest persons to the profession in question. Of course nobody would officially admit that anything is studied for purposes other than needing the learned thing in the profession.

Soapy Sam · 27th May 2012, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Mehdimentio

The intellectual exercise is in itself beneficial.

If true, then equally true of any intellectual activity.

AlBell · 27th May 2012, 02:00 PM

Math is needed for worthwhile studies and degrees in engineering, physics, math, etc. I.E. You'd like to get a wellpaying job.

Underwater Basketweaving, black studies, feminazi studies ... no.

JJM 777 · 27th May 2012, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by AlBell

You'd like to get a wellpaying job.

=> Business Administration studies

Ladewig · 27th May 2012, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by derchin

I had this discussion over at another forum and I asserted that it isn't necessarily needed for everyone and that everyone's careers require something else, something more specific, other than math. The member replied that higher level math is required if you actually want to achieve something.

Agree? Disagree?

As others have pointed out, definitions are necessary before agreement or disagreement can take place.

quarky · 27th May 2012, 06:39 PM

Biology is chemistry, which is physics, and that's math.
Its all math, and math is what separates the men from the boys.
I use math everyday. Today, i compared the quantity of our apples to oranges. It was 0.46327.

Can you guess how many apples and oranges we have?

Skeptic Ginger · 27th May 2012, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

Math is useless in MBA studies.... the boss doesn´t need to do the math himself, he just hires someone who understands math.

I imagine that there are other reasons than math itself for having it as a requirement in some studies. For example, using it to sift out mediocre logical thinkers, to get only the smartest persons to the profession in question. Of course nobody would officially admit that anything is studied for purposes other than needing the learned thing in the profession.

I'm not sure I get your meaning here. Are you saying math is necessary but you can hire someone to do it?

h.g.Whiz · 27th May 2012, 07:50 PM

As necessary as it is for everyone to understand advanced medicine. It would be nice.

Beelzebuddy · 27th May 2012, 08:10 PM

Depends on how you define higher math.

College-level statistics is what I'd consider the bare minimum for everyone. Otherwise they won't have the critical thinking skills to recognize when someone is lying to them through numbers. When the TV says three out of four doctors recommend Colgate, we need more people privately wondering which four doctors they asked.

A bit of Bayes would do the public good as well. The numbers and formula themselves are inconsequential, it's the ability to handle uncertainty the public could stand to get more of.

Modified · 27th May 2012, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

Depends on how you define higher math.

College-level statistics is what I'd consider the bare minimum for everyone. Otherwise they won't have the critical thinking skills to recognize when someone is lying to them through numbers. When the TV says three out of four doctors recommend Colgate, we need more people privately wondering which four doctors they asked.

I'm not sure stats would help you with that one. You need reading comprehension to realize that "recommend" does not mean "exclusively recommend".

JJM 777 · 27th May 2012, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Are you saying math is necessary but you can hire someone to do it?

Key words: Business Intelligence, Data Mining, a huge database and an army of SQL nerds.

Leading a larger company is based on reading daily (or hourly, depends on the business field) simple A4 size reports about various profitability and performance factors, and reacting to it in time.

The reports are simple. The SQL and math behind them is not. But it is not the CEO who designs the SQL and math, he never sees any of the code.

Olowkow · 27th May 2012, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by quarky

Biology is chemistry, which is physics, and that's math.
Its all math, and math is what separates the men from the boys.
I use math everyday. Today, i compared the quantity of our apples to oranges. It was 0.46327.

Can you guess how many apples and oranges we have?

Sure, but that would be like comparing apples to oranges.

I wish I had taken calculus. Algebra, trig and many memorized formulas got me through, but calculus, that just plum eluded me.

xtifr · 28th May 2012, 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

College-level statistics is what I'd consider the bare minimum for everyone. Otherwise they won't have the critical thinking skills to recognize when someone is lying to them through numbers. When the TV says three out of four doctors recommend Colgate, we need more people privately wondering which four doctors they asked.

Exactly this. When my young cousin (a generation younger) was complaining about her high-school math class, I made this exact same point to her: statistics may be boring, but it's really good to know at least enough to know when they're lying to you. She thought about that for a moment, and said, "good point." Which is an awfully positive response from a high-school student. Especially when talking to an adult who's recommending study.

DazzaD · 28th May 2012, 05:11 AM

Higher Level Mathematics isnt needed by everyone ... but I think I could make the case that the higher the level of your understanding of mathematics (notice understanding... not actually getting a grade in the course) than the bigger the payoff/potential payoff in all walks of life.

So I mean that the extra couple of years at university studying mathematics can be very beneficial over the course of your life...

If we were to somehow work out a "bang for your buck" type calculation, whereby we looked at how educated in mathematics you were and how successful, generally, in life/business you were, I would expect mathematics to rate very highly compared to other traditional school subjects.

Leaving aside the specifics of the subject matter, the way in which you are taught to think, analyse, rationalise, plan, follow through, explain, prove, be thorough, be precise, be rough, estimate etc are extremely useful skills that are generally applicable in a wide variety of situations.

Also I think we may need to distinguish between successfully using it in real life and how much money you earn. I would like to think I am very good at using and applying my mathematics skills in real life, both in my personal life and my professional life. But then I am a mathematics teacher. That means my level of 'success' in regards my position and salary give a false impression. I choose to be at my 'lower' level with my 'lower' salary because that is what my passion is.

As mentioned earlier, I dont think you need much past a basic school education in order to become 'rich and successful'...but it cant hurt!

DazzaD · 28th May 2012, 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by Modified

I'm not sure stats would help you with that one. You need reading comprehension to realize that "recommend" does not mean "exclusively recommend".

Sample size

There is a world of difference between 3 out of 4

and

75 out of 100

and

750 out of 1000

If you were selective, sneaky, mainpulative etc you could probably get 3 out of just 4 doctors to agree to almost anything...

Bikewer · 28th May 2012, 05:38 AM

Some years ago I read a book titled "Innumeracy" which was not so much about the lack of individual math skills but rather the dreadful use of math by the news and the media in general.
News stories are constantly referring to various statistics and percentiles and so on without mentioning the raw figures at all.
As a result, you get headlines such as the one that ran locally some years ago...."County Homicides Up 100%!"
They were, too. We had one the year previously, and we'd had two the year of the article...

The political massaging of statistical information is of course, legendary.

arthwollipot · 28th May 2012, 05:41 AM

Obviously, lots of people get along just fine in well-paying jobs with only basic arithmetic.

quarky · 28th May 2012, 06:24 AM

In the U.S., one needs to know some basic units of measurement...like the 'football field'.

AlBell · 28th May 2012, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Obviously, lots of people get along just fine in well-paying jobs with only basic arithmetic.

It's a new world jobwise in the US since 2008. Junk degrees have great difficulty unless flipping burgers or the like is what was wanted.

arthwollipot · 28th May 2012, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by AlBell

It's a new world jobwise in the US since 2008. Junk degrees have great difficulty unless flipping burgers or the like is what was wanted.

Well, I hate to resort to personal anecdotes, but I'm in a well-paying job with no degree whatsoever. But I'm not in the US.

JJM 777 · 28th May 2012, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by quarky

In the U.S., one needs to know some basic units of measurement...like the 'football field'.

And shape concepts such as the "ball".

And anatomical concepts such as "foot".

But wait...

I Ratant · 28th May 2012, 08:55 AM

Some instances where foot and ball come together are very painful!

Modified · 28th May 2012, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by DazzaD

Sample size

But that's not the real deception here. Each dentist "would recommend" dozens of toothpastes, not just one. They never state "four out of five doctors/dentists recommend brand X", it's always some general category that includes brand X, such as "sugarless gum for their patients who chew gum", or it's "would recommend brand X", meaning that brand X is one of many they would recommend.

DazzaD · 28th May 2012, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Modified

But that's not the real deception here. Each dentist "would recommend" dozens of toothpastes, not just one. They never state "four out of five doctors/dentists recommend brand X", it's always some general category that includes brand X, such as "sugarless gum for their patients who chew gum", or it's "would recommend brand X", meaning that brand X is one of many they would recommend.

Oh I am not saying you are wrong and highlighting the (mis)use of the English language and the poor science is something I do as a matter of course when I teach stats.

I was merely playing devil's advocate and trying to show where maths is directly relevent to the question.

jojonete · 28th May 2012, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by quarky

Biology is chemistry, which is physics, and that's math.
Its all math, and math is what separates the men from the boys.

From http://xkcd.com/435/

Originally Posted by quarky

I use math everyday. Today, i compared the quantity of our apples to oranges. It was 0.46327.

Can you guess how many apples and oranges we have?

227 apples and 490 oranges?

Either you have a lot of apples and oranges, or I missed something.

quarky · 28th May 2012, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by jojonete

From http://xkcd.com/435/
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/purity.png

227 apples and 490 oranges?

Either you have a lot of apples and oranges, or I missed something.

yes. ratios don't define quantities. I might have 10 times that amount, for instance. But I was mostly just being a jerk, and frankly, didn't do the math myself.

jeez,

You aren't, like a nerd, or something?

(insert smiley icon of your choice here.)

Ray Brady · 28th May 2012, 01:21 PM

I think what is needed is more education on what higher-level math is for. Not everyone needs to know Calculus, but it would be worthwhile for most people to understand what the practical applications are. I suspect most students of high school trigonometry would be hard pressed to name what professions actually use that particular discipline.

quarky · 28th May 2012, 02:44 PM

Construction workers should know some trig and solid geometry. It may be the lack of that that causes such boring home construction, and so much waste.
Most people have no idea how much rain falls on their roof in an average year, much less how many gallons in a cubic foot of water and so on. Its a stunning disconnect, yet, I suppose its of little consequence. They can't name five wild plants near their home, or six insects.

I Ratant · 28th May 2012, 05:09 PM

I'd run out of names just for each Wild Mustard plant I see every day. We got acres of them.
And the dragonflies... They're so flitty, difficult to name each of them.

DevilsAdvocate · 28th May 2012, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by quarky

yes. ratios don't define quantities. I might have 10 times that amount, for instance. But I was mostly just being a jerk, and frankly, didn't do the math myself.

jeez,

You aren't, like a nerd, or something?

(insert smiley icon of your choice here.)

The solution is quite simple. 0.46327 is 46327/10000. So you have 46327 apples and 10000 oranges. Or, as you mention, those amounts times any whole integer. No calculus, trigonometry, or geometry. I’m not sure that is even algebra.

I choose this smiley:

quarky · 28th May 2012, 08:11 PM

Apples to oranges. Diamonds to dust.

marplots · 28th May 2012, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by quarky

yes. ratios don't define quantities. I might have 10 times that amount, for instance. But I was mostly just being a jerk, and frankly, didn't do the math myself.

I immediately understood that you had just one orange and a partially eaten apple. 'Cause things I see in my head are real.

27th May 2012, 10:57 AM	#1
derchin Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Here Posts: 324	Is Higher-Level Math needed for everyone? I had this discussion over at another forum and I asserted that it isn't necessarily needed for everyone and that everyone's careers require something else, something more specific, other than math. The member replied that higher level math is required if you actually want to achieve something. Agree? Disagree?
	__________________ "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall in an open sewer and die." —Mel Brooks

27th May 2012, 11:16 AM	#2
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Higher than what? Most folks who aren't going into careers in mathemetics, et al. could still benefit from more than arithmetic skills. Algebra and geometry for instance, and the basics of statistics. Calculus? Not so much. That's what we've got Wolfram for...
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Last edited by crimresearch; 27th May 2012 at 11:18 AM.

27th May 2012, 11:25 AM	#3
Mehdimentio Thinker Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Sweden Posts: 161	The intellectual exercise is in itself beneficial.
	__________________ "Picture all experts as if they were mammals." - Christopher Hitchens

27th May 2012, 11:37 AM	#5
baron Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Hill Posts: 1,910	Self evidently this is not the case. In fact, I'd suggest that if you took X multi-millionaire business owners and compared them with X office workers on average wage, the latter group would fare better in academic and intelligence tests. This is no accident because a lack of education / opportunity and poor prospects often provides the drive to work hard, take risks and succeed.
	__________________

27th May 2012, 11:37 AM	#6
derchin Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Here Posts: 324	The discussion: http://forums.school-survival.net/sh....php?tid=25206
	__________________ "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall in an open sewer and die." —Mel Brooks

27th May 2012, 11:30 AM	#4
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Achieve what? A comfortable retirement? Municipal building named after you? New disease with your name? Remembered as a good person after death? Remembered as one of the all time great mass murderers? Math skills need not affect any of these.

27th May 2012, 11:47 AM	#7
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,522	If as some suspect math skills are part of the individual "talents" one might posess, then some folks are deficient. I am among the "innumerate", as they say.... My "basic skills" test charts look like a pretty level line in the highest percentiles... Until you get to math where a very sharp dip is observed.... I maintain that in high school, I got to Algebra I and never even learned what a "set" was. The teacher mentioned "quadratic equation" and thereafter it was all Greek to me.... Never have felt the lack. I've been in police work for 40+ years and never once in that time has my lack of math skills been the slightest hindrance.

27th May 2012, 12:54 PM	#8
Jorghnassen Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The realm of ideas Posts: 3,881	Math skills are problem solving skills, and relate to the capability of thinking abstractly and logically. In that sense, those are important for everyone. However, for those who cannot understand that and only study it at the surface level as required by the curriculum and as it is often unfortunately taught, yeah, the "higher" level stuff is useless. Computations and epsilon-delta proofs aren't that applicable in real-life situations, and the mechanical stuff can of course be done by computers.
	__________________ "Help control the local pet population: teach your dog abstinence." -Stephen Colbert "My dad believed laughter is the best medicine. Which is why several of us died of tuberculosis."- Unknown source, heard from Grey Delisle on Rob Paulsen's podcast

27th May 2012, 01:14 PM	#9
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	Originally Posted by derchin higher level math is required if you actually want to achieve something. Math is useless in MBA studies.... the boss doesn´t need to do the math himself, he just hires someone who understands math. I imagine that there are other reasons than math itself for having it as a requirement in some studies. For example, using it to sift out mediocre logical thinkers, to get only the smartest persons to the profession in question. Of course nobody would officially admit that anything is studied for purposes other than needing the learned thing in the profession.

27th May 2012, 01:47 PM	#10
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Originally Posted by Mehdimentio The intellectual exercise is in itself beneficial. If true, then equally true of any intellectual activity.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

27th May 2012, 02:00 PM	#11
AlBell Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,490	Math is needed for worthwhile studies and degrees in engineering, physics, math, etc. I.E. You'd like to get a wellpaying job. Underwater Basketweaving, black studies, feminazi studies ... no.
AlBell Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,490

27th May 2012, 02:14 PM	#12
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	Originally Posted by AlBell You'd like to get a wellpaying job. => Business Administration studies

27th May 2012, 06:28 PM	#13
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,798	Originally Posted by derchin I had this discussion over at another forum and I asserted that it isn't necessarily needed for everyone and that everyone's careers require something else, something more specific, other than math. The member replied that higher level math is required if you actually want to achieve something. Agree? Disagree? As others have pointed out, definitions are necessary before agreement or disagreement can take place.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

27th May 2012, 06:39 PM	#14
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	Biology is chemistry, which is physics, and that's math. Its all math, and math is what separates the men from the boys. I use math everyday. Today, i compared the quantity of our apples to oranges. It was 0.46327. Can you guess how many apples and oranges we have?
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

27th May 2012, 07:36 PM	#15
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,536	Originally Posted by JJM 777 Math is useless in MBA studies.... the boss doesn´t need to do the math himself, he just hires someone who understands math. I imagine that there are other reasons than math itself for having it as a requirement in some studies. For example, using it to sift out mediocre logical thinkers, to get only the smartest persons to the profession in question. Of course nobody would officially admit that anything is studied for purposes other than needing the learned thing in the profession. I'm not sure I get your meaning here. Are you saying math is necessary but you can hire someone to do it?
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27th May 2012, 07:50 PM	#16
h.g.Whiz Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Egoville Posts: 3,082	As necessary as it is for everyone to understand advanced medicine. It would be nice.
	__________________ Reading this sentence is ineluctable.

27th May 2012, 08:10 PM	#17
Beelzebuddy Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,715	Depends on how you define higher math. College-level statistics is what I'd consider the bare minimum for everyone. Otherwise they won't have the critical thinking skills to recognize when someone is lying to them through numbers. When the TV says three out of four doctors recommend Colgate, we need more people privately wondering which four doctors they asked. A bit of Bayes would do the public good as well. The numbers and formula themselves are inconsequential, it's the ability to handle uncertainty the public could stand to get more of.

27th May 2012, 08:31 PM	#18
Modified Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SW Florida Posts: 4,062	Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy Depends on how you define higher math. College-level statistics is what I'd consider the bare minimum for everyone. Otherwise they won't have the critical thinking skills to recognize when someone is lying to them through numbers. When the TV says three out of four doctors recommend Colgate, we need more people privately wondering which four doctors they asked. I'm not sure stats would help you with that one. You need reading comprehension to realize that "recommend" does not mean "exclusively recommend".

27th May 2012, 09:16 PM	#19
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Are you saying math is necessary but you can hire someone to do it? Key words: Business Intelligence, Data Mining, a huge database and an army of SQL nerds. Leading a larger company is based on reading daily (or hourly, depends on the business field) simple A4 size reports about various profitability and performance factors, and reacting to it in time. The reports are simple. The SQL and math behind them is not. But it is not the CEO who designs the SQL and math, he never sees any of the code.

27th May 2012, 09:22 PM	#20
Olowkow Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,797	Originally Posted by quarky Biology is chemistry, which is physics, and that's math. Its all math, and math is what separates the men from the boys. I use math everyday. Today, i compared the quantity of our apples to oranges. It was 0.46327. Can you guess how many apples and oranges we have? Sure, but that would be like comparing apples to oranges. I wish I had taken calculus. Algebra, trig and many memorized formulas got me through, but calculus, that just plum eluded me.
Olowkow Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,797	__________________ Our remedies oft in ourselves do lie, which we ascribe to heaven. --Shakespeare

28th May 2012, 02:57 AM	#21
xtifr Muse Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Sol III Posts: 563	Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy College-level statistics is what I'd consider the bare minimum for everyone. Otherwise they won't have the critical thinking skills to recognize when someone is lying to them through numbers. When the TV says three out of four doctors recommend Colgate, we need more people privately wondering which four doctors they asked. Exactly this. When my young cousin (a generation younger) was complaining about her high-school math class, I made this exact same point to her: statistics may be boring, but it's really good to know at least enough to know when they're lying to you. She thought about that for a moment, and said, "good point." Which is an awfully positive response from a high-school student. Especially when talking to an adult who's recommending study.
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28th May 2012, 05:11 AM	#22
DazzaD Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Romford Posts: 303	Higher Level Mathematics isnt needed by everyone ... but I think I could make the case that the higher the level of your understanding of mathematics (notice understanding... not actually getting a grade in the course) than the bigger the payoff/potential payoff in all walks of life. So I mean that the extra couple of years at university studying mathematics can be very beneficial over the course of your life... If we were to somehow work out a "bang for your buck" type calculation, whereby we looked at how educated in mathematics you were and how successful, generally, in life/business you were, I would expect mathematics to rate very highly compared to other traditional school subjects. Leaving aside the specifics of the subject matter, the way in which you are taught to think, analyse, rationalise, plan, follow through, explain, prove, be thorough, be precise, be rough, estimate etc are extremely useful skills that are generally applicable in a wide variety of situations. Also I think we may need to distinguish between successfully using it in real life and how much money you earn. I would like to think I am very good at using and applying my mathematics skills in real life, both in my personal life and my professional life. But then I am a mathematics teacher. That means my level of 'success' in regards my position and salary give a false impression. I choose to be at my 'lower' level with my 'lower' salary because that is what my passion is. As mentioned earlier, I dont think you need much past a basic school education in order to become 'rich and successful'...but it cant hurt!

28th May 2012, 05:14 AM	#23
DazzaD Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Romford Posts: 303	Originally Posted by Modified I'm not sure stats would help you with that one. You need reading comprehension to realize that "recommend" does not mean "exclusively recommend". Sample size There is a world of difference between 3 out of 4 and 75 out of 100 and 750 out of 1000 If you were selective, sneaky, mainpulative etc you could probably get 3 out of just 4 doctors to agree to almost anything...

28th May 2012, 05:38 AM	#24
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,522	Some years ago I read a book titled "Innumeracy" which was not so much about the lack of individual math skills but rather the dreadful use of math by the news and the media in general. News stories are constantly referring to various statistics and percentiles and so on without mentioning the raw figures at all. As a result, you get headlines such as the one that ran locally some years ago...."County Homicides Up 100%!" They were, too. We had one the year previously, and we'd had two the year of the article... The political massaging of statistical information is of course, legendary.

28th May 2012, 05:41 AM	#25
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 42,988	Obviously, lots of people get along just fine in well-paying jobs with only basic arithmetic.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

28th May 2012, 06:24 AM	#26
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	In the U.S., one needs to know some basic units of measurement...like the 'football field'.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

28th May 2012, 07:45 AM	#27
AlBell Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,490	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Obviously, lots of people get along just fine in well-paying jobs with only basic arithmetic. It's a new world jobwise in the US since 2008. Junk degrees have great difficulty unless flipping burgers or the like is what was wanted.
AlBell Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,490

28th May 2012, 07:49 AM	#28
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 42,988	Originally Posted by AlBell It's a new world jobwise in the US since 2008. Junk degrees have great difficulty unless flipping burgers or the like is what was wanted. Well, I hate to resort to personal anecdotes, but I'm in a well-paying job with no degree whatsoever. But I'm not in the US.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

28th May 2012, 08:48 AM	#29
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	Originally Posted by quarky In the U.S., one needs to know some basic units of measurement...like the 'football field'. And shape concepts such as the "ball". And anatomical concepts such as "foot". But wait...

28th May 2012, 08:55 AM	#30
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Some instances where foot and ball come together are very painful!

28th May 2012, 10:01 AM	#31
Modified Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SW Florida Posts: 4,062	Originally Posted by DazzaD Sample size But that's not the real deception here. Each dentist "would recommend" dozens of toothpastes, not just one. They never state "four out of five doctors/dentists recommend brand X", it's always some general category that includes brand X, such as "sugarless gum for their patients who chew gum", or it's "would recommend brand X", meaning that brand X is one of many they would recommend.

28th May 2012, 11:55 AM	#32
DazzaD Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Romford Posts: 303	Originally Posted by Modified But that's not the real deception here. Each dentist "would recommend" dozens of toothpastes, not just one. They never state "four out of five doctors/dentists recommend brand X", it's always some general category that includes brand X, such as "sugarless gum for their patients who chew gum", or it's "would recommend brand X", meaning that brand X is one of many they would recommend. Oh I am not saying you are wrong and highlighting the (mis)use of the English language and the poor science is something I do as a matter of course when I teach stats. I was merely playing devil's advocate and trying to show where maths is directly relevent to the question.

28th May 2012, 12:18 PM	#33
jojonete Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 149	Originally Posted by quarky Biology is chemistry, which is physics, and that's math. Its all math, and math is what separates the men from the boys. From http://xkcd.com/435/ Originally Posted by quarky I use math everyday. Today, i compared the quantity of our apples to oranges. It was 0.46327. Can you guess how many apples and oranges we have? 227 apples and 490 oranges? Either you have a lot of apples and oranges, or I missed something.
jojonete Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 149

28th May 2012, 12:51 PM	#34
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	Originally Posted by jojonete From http://xkcd.com/435/ http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/purity.png 227 apples and 490 oranges? Either you have a lot of apples and oranges, or I missed something. yes. ratios don't define quantities. I might have 10 times that amount, for instance. But I was mostly just being a jerk, and frankly, didn't do the math myself. jeez, You aren't, like a nerd, or something? (insert smiley icon of your choice here.)
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

28th May 2012, 01:21 PM	#35
Ray Brady Muse Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 579	I think what is needed is more education on what higher-level math is for. Not everyone needs to know Calculus, but it would be worthwhile for most people to understand what the practical applications are. I suspect most students of high school trigonometry would be hard pressed to name what professions actually use that particular discipline.
Ray Brady Muse Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 579