Suicide

derchin · 27th May 2012, 05:28 PM

*Opinions?

*Is it cowardly?

*Is it wrong to put someone out of their pain and misery?

*Is Assisted Suicide murder?

*Is suicide ever justifiable?

*When it comes to suicide who's the selfish one: The family and friends or the person trying to kill themselves?

Bad Lieutenant · 27th May 2012, 05:42 PM

For some extremely severe physical ailments, suicide and assisted suicide are justifiable. Kamikaze pilots were dying for a cause so some military suicides seem justified too. Under any other circumstances suicide is a psychotic, pessimistic, miserable, defeatest mistake.

Mycroft · 27th May 2012, 06:46 PM

If you're sacrificing yourself for something greater, the proverbial soldier throwing himself on the grenade to save his platoon, that's one thing. If it's an end-of-life thing where you are terminal and have nothing to look forward to except weeks or months of pain, then assisted suicide is understandable.

For other reasons, though, it's a permanent fix to a temporary problem. A choice made by people who almost by definition are not in a state of mind to make a rational choice.

fuelair · 27th May 2012, 07:00 PM

Not necessarily.

No - if they are in agreement or not able to respond.

Only legally -in some places.

Often.

Depends - and quite possibly none of those noted.

Caper · 27th May 2012, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by Bad Lieutenant

For some extremely severe physical ailments, suicide and assisted suicide are justifiable. Kamikaze pilots were dying for a cause so some military suicides seem justified too. Under any other circumstances suicide is a psychotic, pessimistic, miserable, defeatest mistake.

I agree.

I also find we as a society, glorify suicide a little to much. I do to, to tell you the truth. That is when I here about these stories about kids hanging themselves because they are being bullied, I feel just awful. Then I watch the you tube tribute videos.. and all the other stuff..... But I wonder how much of this creates more kids willing to kill themselves.

The Central Scrutinizer · 27th May 2012, 07:27 PM

It's painless, at least that's what I've been told.

Brainster · 27th May 2012, 07:28 PM

It can be justified by a painful and terminal illness, but I suspect that only accounts for a small fraction of all suicides. If it comes about as a result of business or romantic failure or juvenile angst, it's cowardly and vile. Suicides sometimes tell themselves how sorry they will make everybody when they are gone, but they don't really realize how bad it will be. As someone who has been close to two people who killed themselves in non-illness situations I have very little sympathy for suicides and a great deal for those they leave behind.

TragicMonkey · 27th May 2012, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by derchin

*Opinions?

*Is it cowardly?

*Is it wrong to put someone out of their pain and misery?

*Is Assisted Suicide murder?

*Is suicide ever justifiable?

*When it comes to suicide who's the selfish one: The family and friends or the person trying to kill themselves?

Ending one's own existence is the most personal of personal choices. I wish nobody ever faced circumstances that would lead them to make such a choice, but if they do I do not presume to judge them. Whether it is "wrong" or "selfish" doesn't signify in the slightest, in the face of the kind of hell one must be experiencing to do such a thing.

Mehdimentio · 27th May 2012, 07:42 PM

It's not a matter of cowardice if you consider it to be your only emergency exit from what you experience as a mental hellfire that is as permanent as it is painful.
What makes any depressive disorder so damn problematic and self-perpetuating is that they prohibit the person that is affected of snapping out of the delusion that the disease is bound to persist, even though this is rarely the case (as we have been shown by the effectiveness of the treatments of depression). It is to be concluded that no person actually WANTS his life to end. The death wish in itself is superficial. What it essentially boils down to is disease, which contrary to the person's perception of the situation can be treated to the point of satisfaction.

Starthinker · 27th May 2012, 09:33 PM

A lot of the attitudes in this thread are boiling my blood. Until you've been there, you really have no idea what it's like. Don't project your attitudes, experience, and beliefs into a situation you have never experienced.

I've come a long way, and to this day I still have that vacuum cleaner.

Brainster · 27th May 2012, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by Starthinker

A lot of the attitudes in this thread are boiling my blood. Until you've been there, you really have no idea what it's like. Don't project your attitudes, experience, and beliefs into a situation you have never experienced.

And I never will, because I know how crappy it is for everybody else. Perhaps you not having experienced it from that side means that you don't have that perspective, just as I don't have yours.

Tsukasa Buddha · 27th May 2012, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by Brainster

It can be justified by a painful and terminal illness, but I suspect that only accounts for a small fraction of all suicides. If it comes about as a result of business or romantic failure or juvenile angst, it's cowardly and vile. Suicides sometimes tell themselves how sorry they will make everybody when they are gone, but they don't really realize how bad it will be. As someone who has been close to two people who killed themselves in non-illness situations I have very little sympathy for suicides and a great deal for those they leave behind.

You didn't justify the leap from "it hurts the family/friends" to "it is cowardly, vile, and not worthy of sympathy". I've never seen why we should encourage people to live just for another's benefit. It is an idea usually argued against. Everyone has different breaking points depending on their mental health and coping skills.

Kamikazes are an example of unjustified, I would say, if you look at the conditioning they went through.

MontagK505 · 27th May 2012, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by Brainster

It can be justified by a painful and terminal illness, but I suspect that only accounts for a small fraction of all suicides. If it comes about as a result of business or romantic failure or juvenile angst, it's cowardly and vile. Suicides sometimes tell themselves how sorry they will make everybody when they are gone, but they don't really realize how bad it will be. As someone who has been close to two people who killed themselves in non-illness situations I have very little sympathy for suicides and a great deal for those they leave behind.

You might give some thought that some people commit suicide partially because they don't think anybody would care if they were gone.

In some cases the desire to commit suicide simply comes about because a persons perceived problems are overwhelming their ability to cope. If I found myself in this state, being accused of cowardice would hardly improve the situation.

Mycroft · 27th May 2012, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

... Everyone has different breaking points depending on their mental health and coping skills.

I think the problem here is that depression is a mental illness and can be treated. Suicide is the wrong answer not because it doesn't stop the pain, but because there are better ways to stop the pain.

Lukraak_Sisser · 27th May 2012, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by derchin

*Opinions?

*Is it cowardly?

*Is it wrong to put someone out of their pain and misery?

*Is Assisted Suicide murder?

*Is suicide ever justifiable?

*When it comes to suicide who's the selfish one: The family and friends or the person trying to kill themselves?

Depends on the situation.

Not if they themselves want it and there is no medical option that would actually end the pain and misery

Not if agreed upon by the patient

Yes

I've found that they tend to agree, but in the end, the only one with true authority over your life is yourself

Of course you seem to be talking only about assisted suicide, not the type where a physically healthy person has emotional problems that seem unsurmountable and jumps off a building and the like.

angrysoba · 27th May 2012, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by derchin

*Opinions?

*Is it cowardly?

*Is it wrong to put someone out of their pain and misery?

*Is Assisted Suicide murder?

*Is suicide ever justifiable?

*When it comes to suicide who's the selfish one: The family and friends or the person trying to kill themselves?

As lame as it may sound I think the answer is, "it depends..."

Generally, I don't know why people use the word "cowardly" to describe suicide but I suppose it is possible for suicide to be a cowardly option. I don't think that characterizes most suicides though. I think it can be reckless and irresponsible if you have loved ones and dependents.

I don't know why you ask if it is wrong to put someone out of their pain and misery. Most of the time we don't want people to be in pain and misery so I think the question is a little loaded. Assisted suicide isn't murder, in my opinion, if the person in question is terminally ill and in considerable pain and incapable of ending their own life.

Is suicide ever justifiable (or perhaps understandable)? I think yes, some examples have already been given. Presumably even suicide bombing can be justifiable if, for example, you are blowing up Hitler in his lair.

Well, why would it be true that one party or another is selfish when it comes to suicide?

angrysoba · 27th May 2012, 10:48 PM

Actually, there is a form of suicide which I almost always deplore and that is of a number of people here in Japan who choose to end it all by jumping in front of a train. It seems to be wildly popular among the suicide community.

Lowpro · 28th May 2012, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by derchin

*Opinions?

*Is it cowardly?

*Is it wrong to put someone out of their pain and misery?

*Is Assisted Suicide murder?

*Is suicide ever justifiable?

*When it comes to suicide who's the selfish one: The family and friends or the person trying to kill themselves?

It's cowardly almost always. A good friend killed himself, and I'd give anything to bring him back so I could kill him for being so stupid.

It's a big shade of grey to put someone out of their pain and misery. I believe pursuit of happiness protects the person who wants out of the pain and misery, but there's little utilitarian value in it all the same, so I don't personally like it other than as a last ditch effort at alleviating suffering.

Assisted suicide isn't murder. It's assisted suicide. I think a distinction is worth being made for the case of assisted suicide. Should it be legal? Probably not, because there's a lot of problems with dying, even legally.

Is suicide ever justifiable? Subjective ethics question, no objective answer.

Suicide is extremely selfish to anyone who has a relationship with the person who killed themselves. Even if they understand the mentality, it's selfish. Again, I'd give a lot to bring a friend of mine back so I can kill him myself. I can justify THAT before I can justify him killing himself.

Lolly · 28th May 2012, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by Mehdimentio

which contrary to the person's perception of the situation can be treated to the point of satisfaction.

not if those whose job it is to treat instead also decide that it should kill itself.... Sometimes everybody agrees that it should go and all it has to do is find the means and the motivation to make it happen. But don't worry, you can blame it for being selfish and for not "accepting help" (you know, the non-existent kind that exists only in the imagination of those who want to feel better about leaving dealing with that selfish pain-in-the-neck to "professionals")

Professor Yaffle · 28th May 2012, 12:21 AM

It's pretty pointless to analyse the character of the suicidal in logical terms when most often the person in that situation has faulty logic and extremely distorted thinking. We could say that it looks cowardly or selfish from the outside, but we can't infer those characteristics of the person in that position.

Tsukasa Buddha · 28th May 2012, 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

I think the problem here is that depression is a mental illness and can be treated. Suicide is the wrong answer not because it doesn't stop the pain, but because there are better ways to stop the pain.

Oh, I agree with that. I just disagree that we shouldn't feel sympathy or that they have great character flaws.

Tsukasa Buddha · 28th May 2012, 01:04 AM

Originally Posted by Lowpro

It's cowardly almost always. A good friend killed himself, and I'd give anything to bring him back so I could kill him for being so stupid.

It's a big shade of grey to put someone out of their pain and misery. I believe pursuit of happiness protects the person who wants out of the pain and misery, but there's little utilitarian value in it all the same, so I don't personally like it other than as a last ditch effort at alleviating suffering.

Assisted suicide isn't murder. It's assisted suicide. I think a distinction is worth being made for the case of assisted suicide. Should it be legal? Probably not, because there's a lot of problems with dying, even legally.

Is suicide ever justifiable? Subjective ethics question, no objective answer.

Suicide is extremely selfish to anyone who has a relationship with the person who killed themselves. Even if they understand the mentality, it's selfish. Again, I'd give a lot to bring a friend of mine back so I can kill him myself. I can justify THAT before I can justify him killing himself.

But do we apply this logic of "living for others" in any other situations? I've known plenty of gay people who were told they were "selfish" for coming out and shaming/ruining the family. I don't find it to be a convincing moral argument. In fact for many people the problem is that they are too attached to pleasing others.

And technically, some of us are moral egoists who think all actions are selfish, so people should probably start defining their terms.

ieathedead · 28th May 2012, 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle

It's pretty pointless to analyse the character of the suicidal in logical terms when most often the person in that situation has faulty logic and extremely distorted thinking. We could say that it looks cowardly or selfish from the outside, but we can't infer those characteristics of the person in that position.

This is true. As someone with personal experience in the matter at hand, it seems like the best thing to do at the time. When I attempted, I was taking Champix to help me quit smoking and for me at least, it gave me what I can only describe as symptoms similar to schizophrenia, dementia and severe depression all rolled into one. The scariest thing about it was I didn't 'feel' it happening or know what I was doing and thinking was wrong. Hearing voices, putting a boiled kettle in the fridge, feeling worthless and helpless all seemed like normal to me at the time.

Obviously, every situation is different but it's usually not someone being selfish or cowardly because they are asshats. It's not as simplistic as that and kind of insulting to think that it is.

P.S - The side effects from the Champix cleared up after 6 months or so and I'm back to being myself now. It was good to have an insight into the mind of what I can only describe as insane but it almost killed me. Thank FSM I can't tie a knot

JJM 777 · 28th May 2012, 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by derchin

*Is it cowardly?

In some cases it is a useless escape from troubles that could have been encountered and solved.

Originally Posted by derchin

Is it wrong to put someone out of their pain and misery?

Without asking their opinion, yes.

Originally Posted by derchin

*Is Assisted Suicide murder?

No, it is assisted suicide.

Originally Posted by derchin

*Is suicide ever justifiable?

Yes, when it is the only possible escape from troubles that will never go away, ever in life, no chance.

Originally Posted by derchin

*When it comes to suicide who's the selfish one: The family and friends or the person trying to kill themselves?

Depends on the magnitude of the constant pain and agony that the person wishes to escape by suicide.

epepke · 28th May 2012, 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Ending one's own existence is the most personal of personal choices. I wish nobody ever faced circumstances that would lead them to make such a choice, but if they do I do not presume to judge them. Whether it is "wrong" or "selfish" doesn't signify in the slightest, in the face of the kind of hell one must be experiencing to do such a thing.

I've faced that hell a number of times, though obviously I'm alive. It might claim me yet. Gotta say that whether it's wrong or not signifies a hell of a lot. In fact, since I'm a member of the Target Minority™, I'll do what TM™ members do from time to time and write a pompous, arrogant little screed pursuant to raising people's consciousness but, in fact, achieving nothing at all but the temporary satisfaction of a good rant.

We don't need judgment that we're selfish. That, we know, you do for yourself. We don't need the sort of ostentatious "I do not presume to judge them" either. You do that for yourself and your self-image as well. You can either be all judgmental, to convince yourself by denial that you are all safe and superior, or you can be all sympathetic, to convince yourself that you are so good, or you can be all respectful, to convince yourself that you're all respectful, etc. and so forth and so on. None of this is in any way helpful to us.

There are two properties that cause someone to contemplate suicide.

The first is the feeling of being trapped and seeing no way out. Now, sometimes this may be due to a mental disorder, in which a particular state affects what options one sees. However, the assessment can also be perfectly rational and utterly without disorder, even without significant emotion. Declaring mental illness is usually tautological and unhelpful and above all self-serving for you.

The second is seeing the rest of the world against one and empathizing with the rest of the world.

There are some rather interesting and accurate conclusions that can be drawn, though seldom ever do. For one thing, the potential suicide is in a position where nothing conventional works. So you see a potential suicide, and you decide that they are mentally ill and need treatment. Or they need to get Baker Acted and locked up and drugged. Or they need counseling, where they'll be told all the stock answers. Are you crazy or just preternaturally stupid? Do you think for a femtosecond that they are contemplating annihilation because they haven't bothered to try any of those things first, and that they're going to slap their foreheads and realize the Truth™? Stupid.

This probably offends you and cheeses you off, and you'll probably adopt a "Hey, I'm just trying to help!" stance. This will worsen the potential suicide. That's the whole point—the potential suicide is inclined to empathize too much with the needs of others and will tell you what they think you want to hear. This is extremely wearing and drains one of energy. Since they are desperate and hope for any solution, they'll subject themselves to this abuse. When it really starts hurting, they will say what they think you want to hear just to make the intense pain that you are inflicting stop. You believe you are trying to help, but they walk away with the belief that you are expending effort to destroy them. They believe it because it is true, and the fact that your intentions are the opposite is irrelevant. Actual helping always becomes a game of I'm Trying to Help™.

So what should you do? Well, you'll probably just go on doing what you want to do, which is what people do. You're going to have to deal with the fact that, as a result, a lot of people will kill themselves. You probably already have psychic defenses against this, and convince yourself that you're a Good Guy™ who Isn't At Fault™. If you are like this, it's better that you avoid the subject entirely.

If you actually have been there and have found tricks that work, then by all means present them. But you have probably never been there, and even if you have, if you aren't there now you can only remember, not access the mental state. So be careful even with that.

If you actually see some practical options for the potential suicide, then suggest them. But they have to have a real chance of success. They also probably have to be unconventional, because the potential suicide has already tried the conventional and revealed wisdom hundreds of times. And you're going to have to fight and not get pissed off while you are fighting. If you don't have a way out, admit it. Take all your "it gets better" and "it will happen when you least expect it" platitudes and shove them where the sun doesn't shine. These are all to buff up your self-image at the expense, possibly, of our lives, and we are painfully aware of it.

Please don't say "get professional help." First of all, the potential suicide has already tried it and found the helpers to be far more clueless, destructive, and selfish than the amateurs. If you know a therapist who is unusual, then you can suggest this, but only if you really know it. If there is the slightest chance that the therapist is just like most others, do not bring it up.

Failing all that, it is actually better to hurl abuse at the potential suicide than to "respect," sympathize with, or mollycoddle them. This is because abuse can produce an anger reaction, which is quite useful and preserves the self. I stayed alive for a couple of years (long ago) by pure spite. I thought that a lot of people would greet news of my suicide gladly, and I did not want to give them the satisfaction.

angrysoba · 28th May 2012, 02:53 AM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

But do we apply this logic of "living for others" in any other situations? I've known plenty of gay people who were told they were "selfish" for coming out and shaming/ruining the family. I don't find it to be a convincing moral argument. In fact for many people the problem is that they are too attached to pleasing others.

And technically, some of us are moral egoists who think all actions are selfish, so people should probably start defining their terms.

I think we often do make the "living for others" judgment when talking about young children. We generally expect a level of sacrifice from parents of young children and tend to condemn parents who spend all their money on booze because they enjoy it and have no interest in buying their children food and clothes. This doesn't mean that this reasoning always applies. In the example you give you are talking about someone who wants to live their life more fully and get peer pressure of the "what would the neighbours think" variety. It seems to me that it is more obviously clear-cut that a parent who thinks their child should stay in the closet is the one who is the selfish one.

Safe-Keeper · 28th May 2012, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Please don't say "get professional help." First of all, the potential suicide has already tried it and found the helpers to be far more clueless, destructive, and selfish than the amateurs. If you know a therapist who is unusual, then you can suggest this, but only if you really know it. If there is the slightest chance that the therapist is just like most others, do not bring it up.

You seem to be projecting, taking your negative experience and assuming it is what all suicidal people go through.

Psychiatry saved my life. Simple as that. I realize everyone is different, but yes, psychiatry can help. I'm sorry you had such a negative experience with the helping profession, but please don't paint it with such a broad brush that you deter people from seeking out help that may end up saving their life.

Quote:

Failing all that, it is actually better to hurl abuse at the potential suicide than to "respect," sympathize with, or mollycoddle them. This is because abuse can produce an anger reaction, which is quite useful and preserves the self. I stayed alive for a couple of years (long ago) by pure spite. I thought that a lot of people would greet news of my suicide gladly, and I did not want to give them the satisfaction.

My emphasis.

Soapy Sam · 28th May 2012, 03:27 AM

Your life is yours to with as you wish.
If not, then what freedom or rights do you actually have?

angrysoba · 28th May 2012, 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

Your life is yours to with as you wish.
If not, then what freedom or rights do you actually have?

Actually, as I have pointed out earlier, this isn't completely true. This is especially the case when someone is in a position of responsibility such as a parent in charge of their children's well-being.

epepke · 28th May 2012, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

You seem to be projecting, taking your negative experience and assuming it is what all suicidal people go through.

Psychiatry saved my life. Simple as that.

Then I ask you this: Did your life get saved because someone said "get professional help" full stop? Is that what saved your life? Did you just look up someone in the "professional help" part of the Yellow Pages, pick up the phone, and that was it?

Or did you get a psychiatrist who knew what they were doing specifically for potential suicides by some other means?

I am not down on psychiatry categorically or even in general, although I am usually told that I am by people who seem to have a philia of sorts. I am down on the very concept that all a suicidal person has to do is seek a professional, and they'll get an appropriate one. Because they won't. They'll get some goofball, because that's the way things work.

Of course, this is from my experience, but my experience isn't the basis of "projection" any more than your good experience is. At worst, I can consider your statement of the "up yours, I got mine" variety. I'm glad you had good luck, but if the quality control in internal medicine were as abysmal as that in psychiatry, people would be rioting in the streets.

Bikewer · 28th May 2012, 06:09 AM

As a police officer, I've handled numbers of suicides and attempts. As a CIT-certified officer, I have received quite a bit of training in regards to suicidal ideation and the thought processes that go on.
I've also experienced suicide in the family, my step-grandson hanged himself at age 16.

From interviews with various and sundry folks who were either in a state of crisis or had actually attempted, it's pretty obvious that they are suffering real pain, see no hope for a future free of such pain, and feel that the world would be better off without them.

In some cases this is a long, gradual buildup involving many psychological factors. In some cases, it's a sudden, traumatic decision. Often a major life "blip" such as a divorce or firing or a diagnosis of cancer will result in suicidal ideation and an impulsive act.
Sometimes this may be the tip of the iceberg; the proverbial straw.... A long period of depression and internalized problems preceeding.

In some very few cases, suicide may be the result of a rational decision arrived at carefully. The prospect of death by debilitating disease, for instance. Most are not.

Lolly · 28th May 2012, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

In some very few cases, suicide may be the result of a rational decision arrived at carefully. The prospect of death by debilitating disease, for instance. Most are not.

With all due respect, you don't know that. Just because it may seem "impulsive" to you doesn't mean it isn't the result of a rational decision arrived at carefully. It is just the timing and means that seems haphazard, it is still the only option available.

Soapy Sam · 28th May 2012, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Actually, as I have pointed out earlier, this isn't completely true. This is especially the case when someone is in a position of responsibility such as a parent in charge of their children's well-being.

The OP asked for opinions, not complete truths. I also have opinions about parenting, one of which is that I assuredly never wanted anything to do with it.

Agatha · 28th May 2012, 06:44 AM

For most people who take their own lives, it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

But there are as many reasons for suicide as there are people who take that step, and there is no one-size-fits-all reason for doing so. Similarly, what works to prevent suicide in one person's case may be harmful in another.

Talk of selfishness and cowardice is misplaced, IMO. Some people are selfish, some are cowardly, countless others are neither of those things.

I have found this web page and associated resources to be helpful in my darkest moments: http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/

Agreeing (with myself) to take five minutes to read the page before taking any action was enough the first time to lessen the urge, and after that I knew that even when the urge to commit suicide was strong, it would lessen if I rode it out by whatever means I could find. I've also been helped by my GP prescribing several different antidepressants before hitting on the one which suits me best (Effexor/Venlafaxine), by my community psychiatric nurse and local mental health team, seeing a counsellor, and by attending a course specifically for people coming to terms with long term health conditions (recent diagnoses being among the reasons for my depression).

Other people may not find my solutions helpful, as they may need a different approach.

During my major depressive episodes the disordered thinking, and everything which stems from that, seems normal so the feelings and symptoms which would be frankly terrifying to me when I'm well are just part of normality for me. Hence, any 'brakes' on my potential suicidal behaviour are switched off, and people telling me I'm unwell doesn't register fully.

Safe-Keeper · 28th May 2012, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by epepke

Then I ask you this: Did your life get saved because someone said "get professional help" full stop? Is that what saved your life? Did you just look up someone in the "professional help" part of the Yellow Pages, pick up the phone, and that was it?

Prefer not to disclose. Partly because my personal experience is irrelevant to the disucssion.

Quote:

I am not down on psychiatry categorically or even in general, although I am usually told that I am by people who seem to have a philia of sorts.

wut

Quote:

I am down on the very concept that all a suicidal person has to do is seek a professional, and they'll get an appropriate one. Because they won't. They'll get some goofball, because that's the way things work.

Evidence for this claim? Statistics of some kind, perhaps?

Quote:

Of course, this is from my experience, but my experience isn't the basis of "projection" any more than your good experience is.

That's what I'm trying to tell you, that you can't take one anecdote and draw a generalization. You need to look at the big picture, not just sit there and say "this is what happened to me, so it's what will happen to most other people, too".

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

Your life is yours to with as you wish.

...and all the people you hurt in killing yourself don't matter? What happened to "your rights go to my nose"?

Also agree with everything Agartha said below.

Mycroft · 28th May 2012, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by epepke

I am not down on psychiatry categorically or even in general, although I am usually told that I am by people who seem to have a philia of sorts. I am down on the very concept that all a suicidal person has to do is seek a professional, and they'll get an appropriate one. Because they won't. They'll get some goofball, because that's the way things work.

What I've learned from being intimately close to suicidally depressed people is that you can't fix them. You think you can, you imagine they're lacking in being loved, understanding, someone to talk to and support them...and you try to fill these needs and no matter what, it's never enough. You end up subverting your own needs to this other person, and they still don't get better because you don't have the power to fix what's wrong with them.

What I've learned from personal experiences with depression is that yeah, it's possible to work that stuff out on your own without professional help, but getting the help moves things along a lot faster. Even if it seems to move along incredibly slowly, those incremental steps are a heck of a lot faster that what you would accomplish on your own.

So, "seek professional help" may not be a panacea, but I don't see a better option to offer someone except maybe personal assistance in getting them into a therapy system.

Soapy Sam · 28th May 2012, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

...and all the people you hurt in killing yourself don't matter? What happened to "your rights go to my nose"?

Your argument (as I understand it ) is that I have no human right if in the exercise of same someone else may be hurt?

Is this correct?

Halfcentaur · 28th May 2012, 12:33 PM

I really can't stand people who dismiss suicide as cowardly or pathetic. Often they just seem disturbed by the notion or have had suicidal thoughts in the past and are overcompensating in their desire to avoid future incidents. It comes off as ham fisted and clumsy.

People often commit suicide over petty things, this is true, but if someone is actually suffering it's just as selfish to force them to live just so you or others avoid feeling that loss as it is to ignore their suffering.

Something I can't stand myself is the way people treat emotional suffering as somehow less legitimate than "real" suffering. It is a shame how many people commit suicide over things that are finite. But at what point does something cease to be finite in a finite life?

Safe-Keeper · 28th May 2012, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Your argument (as I understand it ) is that I have no human right if in the exercise of same someone else may be hurt?

Is this correct?

This is correct. Along the same venue, you have freedom of expression, but you don't have the right to make death threats. I have the right to own a firearm, but I do not have the right to shoot other people unprovoked.

Quote:

Something I can't stand myself is the way people treat emotional suffering as somehow less legitimate than "real" suffering.

Or how stigmatized mental illnesses and psychiatric care are viewed.

Soapy Sam · 28th May 2012, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

This is correct.

So , I'm free to emigrate to Australia, so long as it doesn't bother you?

27th May 2012, 05:28 PM	#1
derchin Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Here Posts: 325	Suicide Opinions? Is it cowardly? Is it wrong to put someone out of their pain and misery? Is Assisted Suicide murder? Is suicide ever justifiable? When it comes to suicide who's the selfish one: The family and friends or the person trying to kill themselves?
	__________________ "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall in an open sewer and die." —Mel Brooks Last edited by derchin; 27th May 2012 at 05:29 PM.

27th May 2012, 05:42 PM	#2
Bad Lieutenant Muse Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Cheltenham - England Posts: 612	For some extremely severe physical ailments, suicide and assisted suicide are justifiable. Kamikaze pilots were dying for a cause so some military suicides seem justified too. Under any other circumstances suicide is a psychotic, pessimistic, miserable, defeatest mistake.
	Last edited by Bad Lieutenant; 27th May 2012 at 05:47 PM.

27th May 2012, 06:46 PM	#3
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,106	If you're sacrificing yourself for something greater, the proverbial soldier throwing himself on the grenade to save his platoon, that's one thing. If it's an end-of-life thing where you are terminal and have nothing to look forward to except weeks or months of pain, then assisted suicide is understandable. For other reasons, though, it's a permanent fix to a temporary problem. A choice made by people who almost by definition are not in a state of mind to make a rational choice.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

27th May 2012, 07:00 PM	#4
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	Not necessarily. No - if they are in agreement or not able to respond. Only legally -in some places. Often. Depends - and quite possibly none of those noted.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

27th May 2012, 07:14 PM	#5
Caper Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,970	Originally Posted by Bad Lieutenant For some extremely severe physical ailments, suicide and assisted suicide are justifiable. Kamikaze pilots were dying for a cause so some military suicides seem justified too. Under any other circumstances suicide is a psychotic, pessimistic, miserable, defeatest mistake. I agree. I also find we as a society, glorify suicide a little to much. I do to, to tell you the truth. That is when I here about these stories about kids hanging themselves because they are being bullied, I feel just awful. Then I watch the you tube tribute videos.. and all the other stuff..... But I wonder how much of this creates more kids willing to kill themselves.
Caper Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,970

27th May 2012, 07:27 PM	#6
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,278	It's painless, at least that's what I've been told.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

27th May 2012, 07:28 PM	#7
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 10,443	It can be justified by a painful and terminal illness, but I suspect that only accounts for a small fraction of all suicides. If it comes about as a result of business or romantic failure or juvenile angst, it's cowardly and vile. Suicides sometimes tell themselves how sorry they will make everybody when they are gone, but they don't really realize how bad it will be. As someone who has been close to two people who killed themselves in non-illness situations I have very little sympathy for suicides and a great deal for those they leave behind.
	__________________ My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

27th May 2012, 07:36 PM	#8
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,112	Originally Posted by derchin Opinions? Is it cowardly? Is it wrong to put someone out of their pain and misery? Is Assisted Suicide murder? Is suicide ever justifiable? When it comes to suicide who's the selfish one: The family and friends or the person trying to kill themselves? Ending one's own existence is the most personal of personal choices. I wish nobody ever faced circumstances that would lead them to make such a choice, but if they do I do not presume to judge them. Whether it is "wrong" or "selfish" doesn't signify in the slightest, in the face of the kind of hell one must be experiencing to do such a thing.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

27th May 2012, 07:42 PM	#9
Mehdimentio Thinker Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Sweden Posts: 161	It's not a matter of cowardice if you consider it to be your only emergency exit from what you experience as a mental hellfire that is as permanent as it is painful. What makes any depressive disorder so damn problematic and self-perpetuating is that they prohibit the person that is affected of snapping out of the delusion that the disease is bound to persist, even though this is rarely the case (as we have been shown by the effectiveness of the treatments of depression). It is to be concluded that no person actually WANTS his life to end. The death wish in itself is superficial. What it essentially boils down to is disease, which contrary to the person's perception of the situation can be treated to the point of satisfaction.
	__________________ "Picture all experts as if they were mammals." - Christopher Hitchens Last edited by Mehdimentio; 27th May 2012 at 08:03 PM.

27th May 2012, 09:33 PM	#10
Starthinker Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 5,014	A lot of the attitudes in this thread are boiling my blood. Until you've been there, you really have no idea what it's like. Don't project your attitudes, experience, and beliefs into a situation you have never experienced. I've come a long way, and to this day I still have that vacuum cleaner.
	__________________ \|¦¦\|¦ \|¦\|\|\|\|¦\|\|\|¦\|\|¦¦\|¦\|\|\|\|\|\|\|¦\|¦¦¦¦\|¦¦¦¦\|\|¦\|¦\|¦¦\|¦ \|¦¦\|¦ He who doubts victory has already lost the battle. Below the navel there is neither religion nor truth.

27th May 2012, 10:02 PM	#11
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 10,443	Originally Posted by Starthinker A lot of the attitudes in this thread are boiling my blood. Until you've been there, you really have no idea what it's like. Don't project your attitudes, experience, and beliefs into a situation you have never experienced. And I never will, because I know how crappy it is for everybody else. Perhaps you not having experienced it from that side means that you don't have that perspective, just as I don't have yours.
	__________________ My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

27th May 2012, 10:14 PM	#12
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,925	Originally Posted by Brainster It can be justified by a painful and terminal illness, but I suspect that only accounts for a small fraction of all suicides. If it comes about as a result of business or romantic failure or juvenile angst, it's cowardly and vile. Suicides sometimes tell themselves how sorry they will make everybody when they are gone, but they don't really realize how bad it will be. As someone who has been close to two people who killed themselves in non-illness situations I have very little sympathy for suicides and a great deal for those they leave behind. You didn't justify the leap from "it hurts the family/friends" to "it is cowardly, vile, and not worthy of sympathy". I've never seen why we should encourage people to live just for another's benefit. It is an idea usually argued against. Everyone has different breaking points depending on their mental health and coping skills. Kamikazes are an example of unjustified, I would say, if you look at the conditioning they went through.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

27th May 2012, 10:25 PM	#13
MontagK505 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Peoples Republick of Kalifornia Posts: 1,800	Originally Posted by Brainster It can be justified by a painful and terminal illness, but I suspect that only accounts for a small fraction of all suicides. If it comes about as a result of business or romantic failure or juvenile angst, it's cowardly and vile. Suicides sometimes tell themselves how sorry they will make everybody when they are gone, but they don't really realize how bad it will be. As someone who has been close to two people who killed themselves in non-illness situations I have very little sympathy for suicides and a great deal for those they leave behind. You might give some thought that some people commit suicide partially because they don't think anybody would care if they were gone. In some cases the desire to commit suicide simply comes about because a persons perceived problems are overwhelming their ability to cope. If I found myself in this state, being accused of cowardice would hardly improve the situation.
	__________________ Self deception is the root of all evil. Political correctness is linguistic Fascism. - P.D. James

27th May 2012, 10:32 PM	#14
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,106	Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha ... Everyone has different breaking points depending on their mental health and coping skills. I think the problem here is that depression is a mental illness and can be treated. Suicide is the wrong answer not because it doesn't stop the pain, but because there are better ways to stop the pain.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

27th May 2012, 10:37 PM	#15
Lukraak_Sisser Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,621	Originally Posted by derchin Opinions? Is it cowardly? Is it wrong to put someone out of their pain and misery? Is Assisted Suicide murder? Is suicide ever justifiable? When it comes to suicide who's the selfish one: The family and friends or the person trying to kill themselves? Depends on the situation. Not if they themselves want it and there is no medical option that would actually end the pain and misery Not if agreed upon by the patient Yes I've found that they tend to agree, but in the end, the only one with true authority over your life is yourself Of course you seem to be talking only about assisted suicide, not the type where a physically healthy person has emotional problems that seem unsurmountable and jumps off a building and the like.

27th May 2012, 10:46 PM	#16
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,588	Originally Posted by derchin Opinions? Is it cowardly? Is it wrong to put someone out of their pain and misery? Is Assisted Suicide murder? Is suicide ever justifiable? When it comes to suicide who's the selfish one: The family and friends or the person trying to kill themselves? As lame as it may sound I think the answer is, "it depends..." Generally, I don't know why people use the word "cowardly" to describe suicide but I suppose it is possible for suicide to be a cowardly option. I don't think that characterizes most suicides though. I think it can be reckless and irresponsible if you have loved ones and dependents. I don't know why you ask if it is wrong to put someone out of their pain and misery. Most of the time we don't want people to be in pain and misery so I think the question is a little loaded. Assisted suicide isn't murder, in my opinion, if the person in question is terminally ill and in considerable pain and incapable of ending their own life. Is suicide ever justifiable (or perhaps understandable)? I think yes, some examples have already been given. Presumably even suicide bombing can be justifiable if, for example, you are blowing up Hitler in his lair. Well, why would it be true that one party or another is selfish when it comes to suicide?

27th May 2012, 10:48 PM	#17
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,588	Actually, there is a form of suicide which I almost always deplore and that is of a number of people here in Japan who choose to end it all by jumping in front of a train. It seems to be wildly popular among the suicide community.

28th May 2012, 12:09 AM	#18
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,538	Originally Posted by derchin Opinions? Is it cowardly? Is it wrong to put someone out of their pain and misery? Is Assisted Suicide murder? Is suicide ever justifiable? When it comes to suicide who's the selfish one: The family and friends or the person trying to kill themselves? It's cowardly almost always. A good friend killed himself, and I'd give anything to bring him back so I could kill him for being so stupid. It's a big shade of grey to put someone out of their pain and misery. I believe pursuit of happiness protects the person who wants out of the pain and misery, but there's little utilitarian value in it all the same, so I don't personally like it other than as a last ditch effort at alleviating suffering. Assisted suicide isn't murder. It's assisted suicide. I think a distinction is worth being made for the case of assisted suicide. Should it be legal? Probably not, because there's a lot of problems with dying, even legally. Is suicide ever justifiable? Subjective ethics question, no objective answer. Suicide is extremely selfish to anyone who has a relationship with the person who killed themselves. Even if they understand the mentality, it's selfish. Again, I'd give a lot to bring a friend of mine back so I can kill him myself. I can justify THAT before I can justify him killing himself.
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers

28th May 2012, 12:20 AM	#19
Lolly discombobulated Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Western Australia Posts: 4,575	Originally Posted by Mehdimentio which contrary to the person's perception of the situation can be treated to the point of satisfaction. not if those whose job it is to treat instead also decide that it should kill itself.... Sometimes everybody agrees that it should go and all it has to do is find the means and the motivation to make it happen. But don't worry, you can blame it for being selfish and for not "accepting help" (you know, the non-existent kind that exists only in the imagination of those who want to feel better about leaving dealing with that selfish pain-in-the-neck to "professionals")
	__________________ Pet Lover http://forums.randi.org/group.php?groupid=45 "When particles of evil and iniquity swarm together, they make a Lolly.": Legend

28th May 2012, 12:21 AM	#20
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 15,357	It's pretty pointless to analyse the character of the suicidal in logical terms when most often the person in that situation has faulty logic and extremely distorted thinking. We could say that it looks cowardly or selfish from the outside, but we can't infer those characteristics of the person in that position.
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. My blog "Well I think I've made it abundantly clear in this thread I have no idea what I'm talking about..." - truethat Last edited by Professor Yaffle; 28th May 2012 at 12:26 AM.

28th May 2012, 12:56 AM	#21
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,925	Originally Posted by Mycroft I think the problem here is that depression is a mental illness and can be treated. Suicide is the wrong answer not because it doesn't stop the pain, but because there are better ways to stop the pain. Oh, I agree with that. I just disagree that we shouldn't feel sympathy or that they have great character flaws.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

28th May 2012, 01:04 AM	#22
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,925	Originally Posted by Lowpro It's cowardly almost always. A good friend killed himself, and I'd give anything to bring him back so I could kill him for being so stupid. It's a big shade of grey to put someone out of their pain and misery. I believe pursuit of happiness protects the person who wants out of the pain and misery, but there's little utilitarian value in it all the same, so I don't personally like it other than as a last ditch effort at alleviating suffering. Assisted suicide isn't murder. It's assisted suicide. I think a distinction is worth being made for the case of assisted suicide. Should it be legal? Probably not, because there's a lot of problems with dying, even legally. Is suicide ever justifiable? Subjective ethics question, no objective answer. Suicide is extremely selfish to anyone who has a relationship with the person who killed themselves. Even if they understand the mentality, it's selfish. Again, I'd give a lot to bring a friend of mine back so I can kill him myself. I can justify THAT before I can justify him killing himself. But do we apply this logic of "living for others" in any other situations? I've known plenty of gay people who were told they were "selfish" for coming out and shaming/ruining the family. I don't find it to be a convincing moral argument. In fact for many people the problem is that they are too attached to pleasing others. And technically, some of us are moral egoists who think all actions are selfish, so people should probably start defining their terms.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

28th May 2012, 01:06 AM	#23
ieathedead Student Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 28	Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle It's pretty pointless to analyse the character of the suicidal in logical terms when most often the person in that situation has faulty logic and extremely distorted thinking. We could say that it looks cowardly or selfish from the outside, but we can't infer those characteristics of the person in that position. This is true. As someone with personal experience in the matter at hand, it seems like the best thing to do at the time. When I attempted, I was taking Champix to help me quit smoking and for me at least, it gave me what I can only describe as symptoms similar to schizophrenia, dementia and severe depression all rolled into one. The scariest thing about it was I didn't 'feel' it happening or know what I was doing and thinking was wrong. Hearing voices, putting a boiled kettle in the fridge, feeling worthless and helpless all seemed like normal to me at the time. Obviously, every situation is different but it's usually not someone being selfish or cowardly because they are asshats. It's not as simplistic as that and kind of insulting to think that it is. P.S - The side effects from the Champix cleared up after 6 months or so and I'm back to being myself now. It was good to have an insight into the mind of what I can only describe as insane but it almost killed me. Thank FSM I can't tie a knot
ieathedead Student Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 28

28th May 2012, 01:17 AM	#24
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	Originally Posted by derchin Is it cowardly? In some cases it is a useless escape from troubles that could have been encountered and solved. Originally Posted by derchin* Is it wrong to put someone out of their pain and misery? Without asking their opinion, yes. Originally Posted by derchin Is Assisted Suicide murder? No, it is assisted suicide. Originally Posted by derchin* Is suicide ever justifiable? Yes, when it is the only possible escape from troubles that will never go away, ever in life, no chance. Originally Posted by derchin* *When it comes to suicide who's the selfish one: The family and friends or the person trying to kill themselves? Depends on the magnitude of the constant pain and agony that the person wishes to escape by suicide.

28th May 2012, 01:21 AM	#25
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Ending one's own existence is the most personal of personal choices. I wish nobody ever faced circumstances that would lead them to make such a choice, but if they do I do not presume to judge them. Whether it is "wrong" or "selfish" doesn't signify in the slightest, in the face of the kind of hell one must be experiencing to do such a thing. I've faced that hell a number of times, though obviously I'm alive. It might claim me yet. Gotta say that whether it's wrong or not signifies a hell of a lot. In fact, since I'm a member of the Target Minority™, I'll do what TM™ members do from time to time and write a pompous, arrogant little screed pursuant to raising people's consciousness but, in fact, achieving nothing at all but the temporary satisfaction of a good rant. We don't need judgment that we're selfish. That, we know, you do for yourself. We don't need the sort of ostentatious "I do not presume to judge them" either. You do that for yourself and your self-image as well. You can either be all judgmental, to convince yourself by denial that you are all safe and superior, or you can be all sympathetic, to convince yourself that you are so good, or you can be all respectful, to convince yourself that you're all respectful, etc. and so forth and so on. None of this is in any way helpful to us. There are two properties that cause someone to contemplate suicide. The first is the feeling of being trapped and seeing no way out. Now, sometimes this may be due to a mental disorder, in which a particular state affects what options one sees. However, the assessment can also be perfectly rational and utterly without disorder, even without significant emotion. Declaring mental illness is usually tautological and unhelpful and above all self-serving for you. The second is seeing the rest of the world against one and empathizing with the rest of the world. There are some rather interesting and accurate conclusions that can be drawn, though seldom ever do. For one thing, the potential suicide is in a position where nothing conventional works. So you see a potential suicide, and you decide that they are mentally ill and need treatment. Or they need to get Baker Acted and locked up and drugged. Or they need counseling, where they'll be told all the stock answers. Are you crazy or just preternaturally stupid? Do you think for a femtosecond that they are contemplating annihilation because they haven't bothered to try any of those things first, and that they're going to slap their foreheads and realize the Truth™? Stupid. This probably offends you and cheeses you off, and you'll probably adopt a "Hey, I'm just trying to help!" stance. This will worsen the potential suicide. That's the whole point—the potential suicide is inclined to empathize too much with the needs of others and will tell you what they think you want to hear. This is extremely wearing and drains one of energy. Since they are desperate and hope for any solution, they'll subject themselves to this abuse. When it really starts hurting, they will say what they think you want to hear just to make the intense pain that you are inflicting stop. You believe you are trying to help, but they walk away with the belief that you are expending effort to destroy them. They believe it because it is true, and the fact that your intentions are the opposite is irrelevant. Actual helping always becomes a game of I'm Trying to Help™. So what should you do? Well, you'll probably just go on doing what you want to do, which is what people do. You're going to have to deal with the fact that, as a result, a lot of people will kill themselves. You probably already have psychic defenses against this, and convince yourself that you're a Good Guy™ who Isn't At Fault™. If you are like this, it's better that you avoid the subject entirely. If you actually have been there and have found tricks that work, then by all means present them. But you have probably never been there, and even if you have, if you aren't there now you can only remember, not access the mental state. So be careful even with that. If you actually see some practical options for the potential suicide, then suggest them. But they have to have a real chance of success. They also probably have to be unconventional, because the potential suicide has already tried the conventional and revealed wisdom hundreds of times. And you're going to have to fight and not get pissed off while you are fighting. If you don't have a way out, admit it. Take all your "it gets better" and "it will happen when you least expect it" platitudes and shove them where the sun doesn't shine. These are all to buff up your self-image at the expense, possibly, of our lives, and we are painfully aware of it. Please don't say "get professional help." First of all, the potential suicide has already tried it and found the helpers to be far more clueless, destructive, and selfish than the amateurs. If you know a therapist who is unusual, then you can suggest this, but only if you really know it. If there is the slightest chance that the therapist is just like most others, do not bring it up. Failing all that, it is actually better to hurl abuse at the potential suicide than to "respect," sympathize with, or mollycoddle them. This is because abuse can produce an anger reaction, which is quite useful and preserves the self. I stayed alive for a couple of years (long ago) by pure spite. I thought that a lot of people would greet news of my suicide gladly, and I did not want to give them the satisfaction.
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	__________________ "It probably came from a sticky dark planet far, far away." - Godzilla versus Hedora "There's no evidence that the 9-11 attacks (whoever did them) were deliberately attacking civilians. On the contrary the targets appear to have been chosen as military." -DavidByron

28th May 2012, 02:53 AM	#26
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,588	Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha But do we apply this logic of "living for others" in any other situations? I've known plenty of gay people who were told they were "selfish" for coming out and shaming/ruining the family. I don't find it to be a convincing moral argument. In fact for many people the problem is that they are too attached to pleasing others. And technically, some of us are moral egoists who think all actions are selfish, so people should probably start defining their terms. I think we often do make the "living for others" judgment when talking about young children. We generally expect a level of sacrifice from parents of young children and tend to condemn parents who spend all their money on booze because they enjoy it and have no interest in buying their children food and clothes. This doesn't mean that this reasoning always applies. In the example you give you are talking about someone who wants to live their life more fully and get peer pressure of the "what would the neighbours think" variety. It seems to me that it is more obviously clear-cut that a parent who thinks their child should stay in the closet is the one who is the selfish one.

28th May 2012, 03:15 AM	#27
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,121	Quote: Please don't say "get professional help." First of all, the potential suicide has already tried it and found the helpers to be far more clueless, destructive, and selfish than the amateurs. If you know a therapist who is unusual, then you can suggest this, but only if you really know it. If there is the slightest chance that the therapist is just like most others, do not bring it up. You seem to be projecting, taking your negative experience and assuming it is what all suicidal people go through. Psychiatry saved my life. Simple as that. I realize everyone is different, but yes, psychiatry can help. I'm sorry you had such a negative experience with the helping profession, but please don't paint it with such a broad brush that you deter people from seeking out help that may end up saving their life. Quote: Failing all that, it is actually better to hurl abuse at the potential suicide than to "respect," sympathize with, or mollycoddle them. This is because abuse can produce an anger reaction, which is quite useful and preserves the self. I stayed alive for a couple of years (long ago) by pure spite. I thought that a lot of people would greet news of my suicide gladly, and I did not want to give them the satisfaction. My emphasis.
	Last edited by Safe-Keeper; 28th May 2012 at 03:17 AM.

28th May 2012, 03:27 AM	#28
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Your life is yours to with as you wish. If not, then what freedom or rights do you actually have?
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

28th May 2012, 03:29 AM	#29
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,588	Originally Posted by Soapy Sam Your life is yours to with as you wish. If not, then what freedom or rights do you actually have? Actually, as I have pointed out earlier, this isn't completely true. This is especially the case when someone is in a position of responsibility such as a parent in charge of their children's well-being.

28th May 2012, 06:02 AM	#30
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper You seem to be projecting, taking your negative experience and assuming it is what all suicidal people go through. Psychiatry saved my life. Simple as that. Then I ask you this: Did your life get saved because someone said "get professional help" full stop? Is that what saved your life? Did you just look up someone in the "professional help" part of the Yellow Pages, pick up the phone, and that was it? Or did you get a psychiatrist who knew what they were doing specifically for potential suicides by some other means? I am not down on psychiatry categorically or even in general, although I am usually told that I am by people who seem to have a philia of sorts. I am down on the very concept that all a suicidal person has to do is seek a professional, and they'll get an appropriate one. Because they won't. They'll get some goofball, because that's the way things work. Of course, this is from my experience, but my experience isn't the basis of "projection" any more than your good experience is. At worst, I can consider your statement of the "up yours, I got mine" variety. I'm glad you had good luck, but if the quality control in internal medicine were as abysmal as that in psychiatry, people would be rioting in the streets.
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	__________________ "It probably came from a sticky dark planet far, far away." - Godzilla versus Hedora "There's no evidence that the 9-11 attacks (whoever did them) were deliberately attacking civilians. On the contrary the targets appear to have been chosen as military." -DavidByron

28th May 2012, 06:09 AM	#31
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,536	As a police officer, I've handled numbers of suicides and attempts. As a CIT-certified officer, I have received quite a bit of training in regards to suicidal ideation and the thought processes that go on. I've also experienced suicide in the family, my step-grandson hanged himself at age 16. From interviews with various and sundry folks who were either in a state of crisis or had actually attempted, it's pretty obvious that they are suffering real pain, see no hope for a future free of such pain, and feel that the world would be better off without them. In some cases this is a long, gradual buildup involving many psychological factors. In some cases, it's a sudden, traumatic decision. Often a major life "blip" such as a divorce or firing or a diagnosis of cancer will result in suicidal ideation and an impulsive act. Sometimes this may be the tip of the iceberg; the proverbial straw.... A long period of depression and internalized problems preceeding. In some very few cases, suicide may be the result of a rational decision arrived at carefully. The prospect of death by debilitating disease, for instance. Most are not.

28th May 2012, 06:17 AM	#32
Lolly discombobulated Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Western Australia Posts: 4,575	Originally Posted by Bikewer In some very few cases, suicide may be the result of a rational decision arrived at carefully. The prospect of death by debilitating disease, for instance. Most are not. With all due respect, you don't know that. Just because it may seem "impulsive" to you doesn't mean it isn't the result of a rational decision arrived at carefully. It is just the timing and means that seems haphazard, it is still the only option available.
	__________________ Pet Lover http://forums.randi.org/group.php?groupid=45 "When particles of evil and iniquity swarm together, they make a Lolly.": Legend

28th May 2012, 06:33 AM	#33
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Originally Posted by angrysoba Actually, as I have pointed out earlier, this isn't completely true. This is especially the case when someone is in a position of responsibility such as a parent in charge of their children's well-being. The OP asked for opinions, not complete truths. I also have opinions about parenting, one of which is that I assuredly never wanted anything to do with it.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

28th May 2012, 06:44 AM	#34
Agatha Winking at the Moon Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: UK Posts: 4,228	For most people who take their own lives, it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem. But there are as many reasons for suicide as there are people who take that step, and there is no one-size-fits-all reason for doing so. Similarly, what works to prevent suicide in one person's case may be harmful in another. Talk of selfishness and cowardice is misplaced, IMO. Some people are selfish, some are cowardly, countless others are neither of those things. I have found this web page and associated resources to be helpful in my darkest moments: http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/ Agreeing (with myself) to take five minutes to read the page before taking any action was enough the first time to lessen the urge, and after that I knew that even when the urge to commit suicide was strong, it would lessen if I rode it out by whatever means I could find. I've also been helped by my GP prescribing several different antidepressants before hitting on the one which suits me best (Effexor/Venlafaxine), by my community psychiatric nurse and local mental health team, seeing a counsellor, and by attending a course specifically for people coming to terms with long term health conditions (recent diagnoses being among the reasons for my depression). Other people may not find my solutions helpful, as they may need a different approach. During my major depressive episodes the disordered thinking, and everything which stems from that, seems normal so the feelings and symptoms which would be frankly terrifying to me when I'm well are just part of normality for me. Hence, any 'brakes' on my potential suicidal behaviour are switched off, and people telling me I'm unwell doesn't register fully.
	__________________ People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... timey wimey... stuff.

28th May 2012, 08:13 AM	#35
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,121	Originally Posted by epepke Then I ask you this: Did your life get saved because someone said "get professional help" full stop? Is that what saved your life? Did you just look up someone in the "professional help" part of the Yellow Pages, pick up the phone, and that was it? Prefer not to disclose. Partly because my personal experience is irrelevant to the disucssion. Quote: I am not down on psychiatry categorically or even in general, although I am usually told that I am by people who seem to have a philia of sorts. wut Quote: I am down on the very concept that all a suicidal person has to do is seek a professional, and they'll get an appropriate one. Because they won't. They'll get some goofball, because that's the way things work. Evidence for this claim? Statistics of some kind, perhaps? Quote: Of course, this is from my experience, but my experience isn't the basis of "projection" any more than your good experience is. That's what I'm trying to tell you, that you can't take one anecdote and draw a generalization. You need to look at the big picture, not just sit there and say "this is what happened to me, so it's what will happen to most other people, too". Originally Posted by Soapy Sam Your life is yours to with as you wish. ...and all the people you hurt in killing yourself don't matter? What happened to "your rights go to my nose"? Also agree with everything Agartha said below.