Looking for sources on a dubious Vietnam Story

[Graham2001]

I stumbled across the text below while searching for interesting material to provide ideas for role-playing scenarios. It has also piqued my curiosity and I'm wondering if anyone would be willing to help by providing additional sources, especially into the part of the account highlighted.

It supposedly appeared on a now defunct website (alliedcoldwarvets DOT com) and a google search only brings up the site it now appears on (http://freerangeinternational.com/blog/?p=2291, look for Cannoneer No. 4) and also the gaming site I posted the text to.

Quote:

The GCMA functioned in a more guerrilla like mode than any other organization. Its members were dropped into enemy territory to organize local mountain tribesman to fight the Viet Minh. The unit eventually grew to some 15,000 troops, which meant that more than 300 tons of airlifted supplies were required per month.

Unlike the Chindits and the Marauders of WWII, the GCMA’s job was to remain permanently behind enemy lines. Two or three French officers or noncommissioned officers led each company — the remainders were native tribesmen. The GCMA tied down 10 battalions of Viet Minh troops, and by the end of the French Indochina War the 5,000 remaining GCMA members were being hunted by 14 Viet Minh battalions. The long-range penetration principles espoused nearly 15 years earlier had finally been convincingly proven effective.

The GCMA saga ended in a July 1954 cease-fire between the French and the Viet Minh. The last French troops left the area in April 1956. Two years after the cease-fire, a GCMA leader’s radio plea was monitored, requesting, “at least some ammunition, so that we can die fighting instead of being slaughtered like animals.”

As late as 1959, a GCMA trooper made his way out of North Vietnam, but the rest of the French troops trapped behind the lines fought to the death, and their final resting places were never discovered by the French government.

In January of 1969, reports of static radio signals were received at a Special Forces camp in I Corps, near the DMZ. In French, the caller was requesting any assistance whatsoever; the signals later disappeared. The U.S. government has never investigated this radio traffic or the sender.

(Empasis mine)

[Garrette]

I'm not as strong on my Vietnam history as I am in other areas, but the specifics smell wrong here. 15,000 people to tie down 10 battalions? Very poor ratio, I think, but I'll have to recheck my memory on the size of Viet Minh and NVA battalions.

[ddt]

Originally Posted by Garrette

I'm not as strong on my Vietnam history as I am in other areas, but the specifics smell wrong here. 15,000 people to tie down 10 battalions? Very poor ratio, I think, but I'll have to recheck my memory on the size of Viet Minh and NVA battalions.

Given that the bulk of those 15,000 men were local tribesmen who were volunteers, and behind enemy lines to begin with, led only by a handful of French per unit, that may have not been a bad deal.

Here's another page with essentially the same writeup - though missing the 1969 line.

[BStrong]

This might help:

http://www.miafacts.org/

[kookbreaker]

Calls in French for help wouldn't exactly be a surprise in Vietnam.

Vietnam had a DMZ? Where was that?

[crimresearch]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

Calls in French for help wouldn't exactly be a surprise in Vietnam.

Vietnam had a DMZ? Where was that?

Route 41

[Questioninggeller]

Originally Posted by Graham2001

I stumbled across the text below while searching for interesting material to provide ideas for role-playing scenarios. It has also piqued my curiosity and I'm wondering if anyone would be willing to help by providing additional sources, especially into the part of the account highlighted.

It supposedly appeared on a now defunct website (alliedcoldwarvets DOT com) and a google search only brings up the site it now appears on (http://freerangeinternational.com/blog/?p=2291, look for Cannoneer No. 4) and also the gaming site I posted the text to.

(Empasis mine)

Ask the French Defence Ministry:

Quote:

If you would like to know whether the documents you need for your research are held by the SHD, please fill in this form, clearly stating the subject of your research.

at: http://www.servicehistorique.sga.def...-for-help.html

and the US Department of Defense:

at http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/submit_foiaform.html

[dropzone]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

Vietnam had a DMZ? Where was that?

Less obscure an explanation than John Prine's, but not as good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam...litarized_Zone

[geni]

The version at militaryphotos.net appears to be the oldest online. The person who posted it is still active there.

[Ryokan]

Originally Posted by Garrette

I'm not as strong on my Vietnam history as I am in other areas, but the specifics smell wrong here. 15,000 people to tie down 10 battalions? Very poor ratio, I think, but I'll have to recheck my memory on the size of Viet Minh and NVA battalions.

Considering that a battalion is usually around a thousand men, I'm not very impressed...

[I am Bigfoot]

As you said, it's dubious. Everything really seems to lead back to the one source that tells the story. I would say the best bet is to contact the original source, or as someone has suggested previously, to contact the French and American governments.

OR
Try shooting some emails to military historians that specialize in Vietnam? Perhaps people who have written books specifically about Special Ops. groups. Maybe they've heard something or can point you someone/place with useful information

[Graham2001]

Thanks to all of the above for the suggestions and to Kookbreaker for pointing out, one of the things I'd overlooked, but which further contributes to why I felt dubious about this story.

Thanks also to Ddt for finding the 2004 version of the story. Research with the Wayback Machine shows the alliedcoldwarvets DOT com site was not archived prior to 2010 when it already appears to have dropped off the internet, which makes tracking down the origin of that version rather difficult. My Google searches using the highlighted phrase in the OP as the basis returns only the results I reported.

[Garrette]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Considering that a battalion is usually around a thousand men, I'm not very impressed...

yep, though, iirc, some Viet Minh battalions could be about 1500. Even then the best case is a one-to-one ratio of GCMA to enemy forces. So even if true and even allowing for the fact that the partisans were mostly villagers it's not an impressive accomplishment.

[I am Bigfoot]

Found this: (Emphasis added)

Quote:

The GCMA saga ended in a July 1954 cease-fire between the French and the Viet Minh. The last French troops left the area in April 1956. Two years after the cease-fire, a GCMA leader's radio plea was monitored, requesting "at least some ammunition, so that we can die fighting instead of being slaughtered like animals." As late as 1959, a GCMA trooper made his way out of North Vietnam, but the rest of the French troops trapped behind the lines fought to the death, and their final resting places were never discovered by the French government. (See "To Die Alone in the Silence," by Robert Barr Smith in the October 1992 Vietnam.)

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...ution-Of-LRRPs
Found the magazine in question:
http://www.aferguson.net/vietnam/default.asp?year=1992
Here it is for sale on Amazon if you're that desperate:
http://www.amazon.com/VIETNAM-MAGAZI.../dp/B003GRP6TO


Found this version as well
http://forums.somethingawful.com/sho...pagenumber=105

[Graham2001]

Originally Posted by I am Bigfoot

Found this: (Emphasis added)

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...ution-Of-LRRPs
Found the magazine in question:
http://www.aferguson.net/vietnam/default.asp?year=1992
Here it is for sale on Amazon if you're that desperate:
http://www.amazon.com/VIETNAM-MAGAZI.../dp/B003GRP6TO


Found this version as well
http://forums.somethingawful.com/sho...pagenumber=105

Thanks, I'll check those out.

Still looking for the source of the highlighted paragraph, rather annoyed what appears to have been the source page was not archived.

[Pope130]

On first reading this story I thought that the airlift requirement of 300 tons a month was more than could have been conducted covertly, given the size of the French establishment in theater. Further research showed that the capability was considerably larger than I had recalled.

At the start of the war the French had 40 transports in Indochina, a mix of C-47s and Ju-52s. This was increased to about 100 C-47s and 12 C-119s in regular French Air Force service. For high threat airdrops (agent dropping and behind the lines resupply) PB4Y-2 Privateers were also used.

In addition to the French assets, the US provided considerable support. CAT operated a number of aircraft, both in country, and in strategic airlift support. Ten to twenty C-46s were in country on logistic support and airdrop duty, smaller numbers of C-47 and DC-3 variants were used (often for specialised duties) and one or two PBYs were utilised for night covert operations.

Dien Bien Phu saw the deployment of twenty "loaned" C-119s (mostly from the 37th TCS, Blue Tail Flies). They were operated by mixed crews, CAT pilots, French liaison officer/navigators and Vietnamese kickers (loadmaster). Maintenance was provided by sheep dipped USAF mechanics.

Taking the median airdrop load of about 2 tons for this fleet, that would require 150 sorties a month to meet the requirement, or about one additional flight per month per aircraft. That would be easy to hide. That portion of the story is plausible.

[Garrette]

When in doubt, check the Rand Institute for papers.

I found "Translation from the French Lessons of the Indochina War Volume 2." It's a free download, but there's a glitch if you click "Open." Instead, click "Save," and it should work just fine.

Start with the section on "Pacification" (pages 110-116) which hint about some irregular ops and the difficulties in creating native self defense organizations. Other interesting stuff in there, too.

Then go to the section on "Irregular Forces" (pages 156-160). The GCMA is briefly mentioned there, primarily indicating its ineffectiveness. It wasn't alone in that; the entire section bemoans the general ineffectiveness of French and native irregular operations.

Page 159 also lists the flights and tonnage of support to irregular forces by the "end of hostilities," so you can match that against your article.

The section also gives numbers of Viet Minh battalions tied down and mentions the 15,000 figure given, but it doesn't do it in a positive light.

In short, the GCMA existed but wasn't the only irregular force, and -- like other forces -- was fairly ineffective.

[Gawdzilla]

Given that the airwaves were being combed pretty thoroughly back then I think more than one broadcast would have been caught if they were being made. And why radio? If they survived 10 years in the boonies they could have walked to India in that time.