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000063 · 26th May 2012, 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by Sabrina

I could quote you chapter and verse about a lot of things, SHC, but given that I'd be running the risk of violating my security clearance, I'm sure you'll understand if I refrain from doing so. Suffice to say, your interpretation of how things were then is sadly lacking and quite frankly insulting.

I liked that bit at the end of the first Bourne movie where Abbott lies his pants off to the oversight committee or whatever. It shows that, yes, these guys can be held accountable for their actions, and the watchmen watching the watchmen are just as fallible. Any significant inquiry into Treadstone would have blown the lid off Abbott's lies in a New York Minute.

Originally Posted by Mudcat

The human element, number one cause of airplane disasters, security breaches and lapses in safety. The human element. Yet another thing you have zero knowledge in.

He's human? I thought he was a SADOT; Sophisticated Algorithm Designed Only for Trolling. You're doing a great job, by the way. Kudos to your programmers.

marplots · 26th May 2012, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by 000063

I liked that bit at the end of the first Bourne movie where Abbott lies his pants off to the oversight committee or whatever. It shows that, yes, these guys can be held accountable for their actions, and the watchmen watching the watchmen are just as fallible. Any significant inquiry into Treadstone would have blown the lid off Abbott's lies in a New York Minute.

That was a good movie. Are there any others I should watch so I can learn more about how the CIA actually works? I would like to be an expert and an authority.

WildCat · 26th May 2012, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by ergo

Oh, I see. You mocked and ridiculed "truthers" on an internet message board.

It's not like they exist in real life, so knocking them down on interbet forums is the only venue available.

SpringHallConvert · 26th May 2012, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Moss

SHC missed the obvious implication: Low level employees know the basics how things work.

So a CIA secretary knows how covert operations work, where operations are taking place anywhere on the globe, what the overall goal of the operations are, where the money for the operations is coming from, and who are the operatives involved?

Hang on a second...

Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha!

There's total B.S., and then there's Government Truth B.S., for when you really need to tell a whopper of a fib.

Moss · 26th May 2012, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

So a CIA secretary knows how covert operations work, where operations are taking place anywhere on the globe, what the overall goal of the operations are, where the money for the operations is coming from, and who are the operatives involved?

Hang on a second...

Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha!

There's total B.S., and then there's Government Truth B.S., for when you really need to tell a whopper of a fib.

For some odd reason I seem to remember I was talking about basics, you on the other hand seem to be talking about specific details... You wouldn't be trying to build a strawman there, would you?
Apart from low level employee != secretary and all that.

Sabrina · 26th May 2012, 06:09 PM

For the record, I'm a consultant; I work for Deloitte. I happen to hold a security clearance from my military service that Deloitte is able to use at various government agencies, so I am a government consultant. I do not work directly for the government except in my capacity as a US Army Captain. In that capacity, I am a 35D (All-Source Intelligence Officer) and am experienced in working with various types of intel to benefit the overall mission of my unit.

Just to set the record straight.

Mudcat · 26th May 2012, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Sabrina

For the record, I'm a consultant; I work for Deloitte. I happen to hold a security clearance from my military service that Deloitte is able to use at various government agencies, so I am a government consultant. I do not work directly for the government except in my capacity as a US Army Captain. In that capacity, I am a 35D (All-Source Intelligence Officer) and am experienced in working with various types of intel to benefit the overall mission of my unit.

Just to set the record straight.

In your professional opinion what is the likelihood of a perfect coverup like the ones suggested by conspiracy nuts?

BStrong · 26th May 2012, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

In your professional opinion what is the likelihood of a perfect coverup like the ones suggested by conspiracy nuts?

In my professional opinion, a "perfect cover-up" involving more than one human is a creation of a fiction writer.

Childlike Empress · 27th May 2012, 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by Sabrina

For the record, I'm a consultant; I work for Deloitte. I happen to hold a security clearance from my military service that Deloitte is able to use at various government agencies, so I am a government consultant. I do not work directly for the government except in my capacity as a US Army Captain. In that capacity, I am a 35D (All-Source Intelligence Officer) and am experienced in working with various types of intel to benefit the overall mission of my unit.

Just to set the record straight.

Wow, that nearly beats Richard Clarke... yet he was there.

JihadJane · 27th May 2012, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by BStrong

In my professional opinion, a "perfect cover-up" involving more than one human is a creation of a fiction writer.

Sure, no one gets away with crime in real life.

gabeygoat · 27th May 2012, 03:58 AM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

So a CIA secretary knows how covert operations work, where operations are taking place anywhere on the globe, what the overall goal of the operations are, where the money for the operations is coming from, and who are the operatives involved?

Hang on a second...

Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha!

There's total B.S., and then there's Government Truth B.S., for when you really need to tell a whopper of a fib.

If a CIA secretary is to be considered ignorant in your opinion, then why should anyone listen to you, when you're not even at the level of a CIA secretary?

newton3376 · 27th May 2012, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by Sabrina

For the record, I'm a consultant; I work for Deloitte. I happen to hold a security clearance from my military service that Deloitte is able to use at various government agencies, so I am a government consultant. I do not work directly for the government except in my capacity as a US Army Captain. In that capacity, I am a 35D (All-Source Intelligence Officer) and am experienced in working with various types of intel to benefit the overall mission of my unit.

Just to set the record straight.

Interesting.........I thought you might be a 35E..........

LSSBB · 27th May 2012, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by newton3376

Interesting.........I thought you might be a 35E..........

That's what the Army gets for using suggestive MOS codes, I guess. Let's see you turn the Navy designator of 1115 (Surface Warfare) into a double entendre'.

newton3376 · 27th May 2012, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

That's what the Army gets for using suggestive MOS codes, I guess. Let's see you turn the Navy designator of 1115 (Surface Warfare) into a double entendre'.

LOL

I didn't mean it like that......

At any rate the fact remains that the stuff we have been saying is from personal experience and not wishful thinking.

I wish certain people would listen and stop this nonsense.

beachnut · 27th May 2012, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

Wow, that nearly beats Richard Clarke... yet he was there.

Where? The OP is fictional nonsense - you are saying Richard Clarke was the one threating the nuts at "Press for Truth" and responsible for all the nonsense related to the OP? This is worse than the CIT support.

LSSBB · 27th May 2012, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by newton3376

LOL

I didn't mean it like that......

At any rate the fact remains that the stuff we have been saying is from personal experience and not wishful thinking.

I wish certain people would listen and stop this nonsense.

Now I feel bad for reading double meaning into your comment. To quick on the draw for the joke.

Agreed on the "Listen". It is true that not everyone on the internet, by far, is whom they claim to be. On the other hand, you shouldn't automatically assume that someone you don't know is lying about their credentials, on the basis that you don't like what they say or that it challenges your tightly held beliefs, and that is where some posting on here have failed.

newton3376 · 27th May 2012, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

Now I feel bad for reading double meaning into your comment. To quick on the draw for the joke.

Agreed on the "Listen". It is true that not everyone on the internet, by far, is whom they claim to be. On the other hand, you shouldn't automatically assume that someone you don't know is lying about their credentials, on the basis that you don't like what they say or that it challenges your tightly held beliefs, and that is where some posting on here have failed.

Well.......currently I can't even reveal what my credentials are.......maybe in a few years I will be able to.

But I believe Sabrina based off of what she has written.....and since I often work in similar circles.

Actually there are several people here that I believe based off of what they have written......you included.

SpringHallConvert · 27th May 2012, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Sabrina

For the record, I'm a consultant; I work for Deloitte. I happen to hold a security clearance from my military service that Deloitte is able to use at various government agencies, so I am a government consultant. I do not work directly for the government except in my capacity as a US Army Captain. In that capacity, I am a 35D (All-Source Intelligence Officer) and am experienced in working with various types of intel to benefit the overall mission of my unit.

Just to set the record straight.

Great. A Deloitte "consultant".

So how does that make you some kind of expert on CIA covert operations?

SpringHallConvert · 27th May 2012, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by newton3376

Well.......currently I can't even reveal what my credentials are.......maybe in a few years I will be able to.

Brilliant. The old, "I'm right because I have credentials, but can't prove it" argument. How wonderful.

Some of you guys probably push brooms and change wastepaper basket liners inside government facilities and believe that gives you some kind of special insight into how the government functions.

It doesn't.

JihadJane · 27th May 2012, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

Brilliant. The old, "I'm right because I have credentials, but can't prove it" argument. How wonderful.

Some of you guys probably push brooms and change wastepaper basket liners inside government facilities and believe that gives you some kind of special insight into how the government functions.

It doesn't.

newton3376 · 27th May 2012, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

Brilliant. The old, "I'm right because I have credentials, but can't prove it" argument. How wonderful.

Some of you guys probably push brooms and change wastepaper basket liners inside government facilities and believe that gives you some kind of special insight into how the government functions.

It doesn't.

SHC...........my comment really wasn't directed at you anyway. Believe what you want....you are going to anyway.

carlitos · 27th May 2012, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

Some of you guys probably push brooms and change wastepaper basket liners

The shrinks call this "projection."

Mudcat · 27th May 2012, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by carlitos

The shrinks call this "projection."

Why would they? I'd imagine they, like myself, would having a hard time of believing OTP holding down a janitorial job.

Just saying.

thatsmystory · 27th May 2012, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

Now I feel bad for reading double meaning into your comment. To quick on the draw for the joke.

Agreed on the "Listen". It is true that not everyone on the internet, by far, is whom they claim to be. On the other hand, you shouldn't automatically assume that someone you don't know is lying about their credentials, on the basis that you don't like what they say or that it challenges your tightly held beliefs, and that is where some posting on here have failed.

The audio documentary referenced in the OP made the case that the withholding was deliberate. Meaning we aren't talking about bureaucratic inefficiency, turf battles, risk aversion, outdated computer systems, incompetence, etc. For sure these factors hindered US intelligence before 9/11 and continue to be an issue today but they do not explain away deliberate withholding.

I've read almost all the mainstream 9/11 books. None to date has a credible explanation for the al-Hazmi/al-Mihdhar withholding. We have speculation that the CIA was trying to double them or that they were Saudi uncover agents posing as al Qaeda. The CIA and FBI have not declassified any 9/11 Commission interviews with Alec Station or UBLU agents. As posted above FBI agent Ali Soufan still has no explanation for the withholding. Author Lawrence Wright wrote in his Pulitzer Prize winning book The Looming Tower that CIA withholding amounted to obstruction of justice in the USS Cole investigation. He too was unable to get a explanation from the CIA.

We have never heard a word from Richard Blee even though he headed Alec Station when the withholding took place from January 2000 through August 2001. We have never heard a word from Rodney Middleton who was in charge of the FBI UBLU. Middleton's unit kept the information from the Cole agents and instead a single rookie agent was given a routine priority intel side investigation to track al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar.

There is no good reason why the public should not know what was going on in these units.

beachnut · 27th May 2012, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

Brilliant. The old, "I'm right because I have credentials, but can't prove it" argument. How wonderful.

Some of you guys probably push brooms and change wastepaper basket liners inside government facilities and believe that gives you some kind of special insight into how the government functions.

It doesn't.

It appears being a janitor is all that is needed to understand 911 better than you do.
Here is what I did for my job, I swept up a lot of air and turned it into thrust.

I am a janitor, and I understand 911; you don't.

Oh, I pass gas too, and love photography, and flew jets, and some engineering on the side - what do you do besides fail to understand 911 and call people liars? I just took out the trash.

The OP remains nonsense, or worse.

Originally Posted by thatsmystory

... We have speculation ... or that they were Saudi uncover agents posing as al Qaeda. ...

You speculate two of the hijackers were undercover agents? Is that special 911 truth logic, or did you come up with that all by yourself?

or worse

000063 · 28th May 2012, 04:02 AM

Originally Posted by marplots

That was a good movie. Are there any others I should watch so I can learn more about how the CIA actually works? I would like to be an expert and an authority.

Le Carre's books are pretty accurate, I'm told. Also, surprisingly, Burn Notice, which makes a point of showing how spies are just as human as anyone. They can be exploited, blackmailed, emotionally compromised, and so on. They actually have an ex-spy as a consultant. There's also it's predecessor The Equalizer.

Originally Posted by carlitos

The shrinks call this "projection."

I shouldn't laugh, really I shouldn't.

Myron Proudfoot · 28th May 2012, 08:29 AM

FYI, secretaries and other admin types are a prime target for recruitment by other intelligence services precisely because they often have access to materials far above their GS level as part of their jobs. That's not to say that secretaries know everything, but you can't just say "she/he doesn't know anything, they're just a secretary!"

carlitos · 28th May 2012, 08:39 AM

From the wikipedia plot summary of Tom Clancy's Clear and Present Danger:

Quote:

Cortez, a former colonel of Cuban military intelligence, has an unwitting contact inside the U.S. government — Moira Wolfson (Ann Magnuson), a secretary to Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) Director Emil Jacobs. Cortez feigns romantic interest to discover that Jacobs is visiting Colombia to negotiate with the local attorney general concerning the frozen money.

BStrong · 28th May 2012, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by beachnut

It appears being a janitor is all that is needed to understand 911 better than you do.
Here is what I did for my job, I swept up a lot of air and turned it into thrust.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/l...nkerflight.jpg

I am a janitor, and I understand 911; you don't.

Oh, I pass gas too, and love photography, and flew jets, and some engineering on the side - what do you do besides fail to understand 911 and call people liars? I just took out the trash.

The OP remains nonsense, or worse.

You speculate two of the hijackers were undercover agents? Is that special 911 truth logic, or did you come up with that all by yourself?

or worse

Don't you know that hands-on experience with the subject matter makes you part of the plot?

Sabrina · 28th May 2012, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

In your professional opinion what is the likelihood of a perfect coverup like the ones suggested by conspiracy nuts?

In my opinion? About negative infinity.

In a conspiradroid's world, the government is a well-oiled machine where every part does exactly what it's supposed to do, when it's supposed to do it, and everyone can keep their big yap shut no matter what because they're either unscrupulous bastages who couldn't give a hoot for the lives that may be lost on account of their actions or they're so thoroughly cowed by the big shots that they're too scared to say anything. The reality is far less smooth, shall we say; even now, most of the agencies, intelligence or otherwise, don't get along very well, mistakes are made on a daily basis, and it's pretty clear that there are people who are willing to break their silence on how things work, either in a legitimate fashion or by violating their oaths (i.e. Sibel Edmonds and Bradley Manning, to name a few). Like I said before, there's a reason the saying goes "three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead"; the notion that a conspiracy of this size could POSSIBLY be kept secret for this long is utterly ludicrous if you know the day-to-day workings of the government agencies. Again, not just intel; all the agencies have their little foibles, and they are hardly the well-oiled machine the conspiradroids like to say they are. But we all know SHC and his like will ignore this... as always.

newton3376 · 28th May 2012, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Sabrina

The reality is far less smooth, shall we say; even now, most of the agencies, intelligence or otherwise, don't get along very well, mistakes are made on a daily basis, and it's pretty clear that there are people who are willing to break their silence on how things work, either in a legitimate fashion or by violating their oaths (i.e. Sibel Edmonds and Bradley Manning, to name a few).

Sibel Edmonds.......now people want to talk about "low level' people in the Intel community...........here is one.

Translators are low level people in Intel (and other agencies) and usually only know a very small piece of a very big pie (and for good reasons!).

Most translators I have worked with understand their role though......unlike Sibel Edmonds who worked for 4 months.

She makes me sick!

Childlike Empress · 28th May 2012, 12:07 PM

Sibel Edmonds founded the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition in the early days of her odyssey against a kafkaesk system and all those people, many of them high rank were happy to join. Daniel Ellsberg calls her a hero. Foot soldiers in some agencies who were successfully brainwashed into accepting a tight hierarchy and to never question authority, essentially giving up their independent thinking for a paycheck, have to hate her, because couraged people like her and her foundations members force them to look into the mirror and see the face of enablers.

No surprise there.

dafydd · 28th May 2012, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

Sibel Edmonds founded the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition in the early days of her odyssey against a kafkaesk system and all those people, many of them high rank were happy to join. Daniel Ellsberg calls her a hero. Foot soldiers in some agencies who were successfully brainwashed into accepting a tight hierarchy and to never question authority, essentially giving up their independent thinking for a paycheck, have to hate her, because couraged people like her and her foundations members force them to look into the mirror and see the face of enablers.

No surprise there.

Kafkaesque.

Childlike Empress · 28th May 2012, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Kafkaesque.

Herr K. would disagree, spelling Nazi.

dafydd · 28th May 2012, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

Herr K. would disagree, spelling Nazi.

If we were writing in German then I would agree with you.

The English language would disagree with you. Back to the topic.

Foolmewunz · 28th May 2012, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

Sibel Edmonds founded the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition in the early days of her odyssey against a kafkaesk system and all those people, many of them high rank were happy to join. Daniel Ellsberg calls her a hero. Foot soldiers in some agencies who were successfully brainwashed into accepting a tight hierarchy and to never question authority, essentially giving up their independent thinking for a paycheck, have to hate her, because couraged people like her and her foundations members force them to look into the mirror and see the face of enablers.

No surprise there.

I can't speak for everyone here (nor anyone, really) as I know that there are very likely posters here who are absolutely against whistle-blowing - by the simple fact that there are posters here who are against, well, just about everything. Meh, I'm all for the creation of a halfway house and safe refuge for whistleblowers. I also think the WPA needs to be worded more strongly and be better enforced.

My problem, as with many who share some of my opinions, is with Edmonds making herself out to be some kind of expert on 9/11, taunting the world for years with all that she was privy to and would one day reveal, and then shutting up like a clam (on the topic of 9/11) when she took the witness stand. I don't think she sold us out - I think she never had anything other than what she ultimately revealed in those hearings.

She was a low-grade translator for a brief period. The stuff she saw had to do with political contributions by interested parties who shouldn't have been allowed to be interested. Nothing more. If she wants to tell me about how the translation desks in the FBI worked during that period, I'm all ears. If she wants to tell me that the documents she was exposed to somehow were the first in a series of connect-the-dot moves to get to the bottom of 9/11? Then she's going to have to prove it. This, she has not accomplished and she's had a lot of time and a change of administrations. The fact that this has not been forthcoming suggests to me that what we saw of her testimony behavior is what she's got..... nothing.

squealpiggy · 28th May 2012, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

So a CIA secretary knows how covert operations work, where operations are taking place anywhere on the globe, what the overall goal of the operations are, where the money for the operations is coming from, and who are the operatives involved?

No, this sort of knowledge is possessed by a select few known as "Anyone with a Youtube account". Youtube. The source of all hidden knowledge.

SpringHallConvert · 28th May 2012, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by squealpiggy

No, this sort of knowledge is possessed by a select few known as "Anyone with a Youtube account". Youtube. The source of all hidden knowledge.

Yes, I'm quite certain the CIA puts videos of all their legal and illegal covert operations on YouTube for the hams to watch and point their fingers in horror at. Right.

LOLZ!

Sabrina · 29th May 2012, 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert

Yes, I'm quite certain the CIA puts videos of all their legal and illegal covert operations on YouTube for the hams to watch and point their fingers in horror at. Right.

LOLZ!

You don't get sarcasm, do you.

000063 · 29th May 2012, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

Sibel Edmonds founded the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition in the early days of her odyssey against a kafkaesk system and all those people, many of them high rank were happy to join. Daniel Ellsberg calls her a hero. Foot soldiers in some agencies who were successfully brainwashed into accepting a tight hierarchy and to never question authority, essentially giving up their independent thinking for a paycheck, have to hate her, because couraged people like her and her foundations members force them to look into the mirror and see the face of enablers.

No surprise there.

In other words, they were willing to sacrifice to expose wrongdoing.

That's kind of an argument in the debunkers' favor, CE.

26th May 2012, 03:01 AM	#241
000063 Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Not America. Posts: 4,739	Originally Posted by Sabrina I could quote you chapter and verse about a lot of things, SHC, but given that I'd be running the risk of violating my security clearance, I'm sure you'll understand if I refrain from doing so. Suffice to say, your interpretation of how things were then is sadly lacking and quite frankly insulting. I liked that bit at the end of the first Bourne movie where Abbott lies his pants off to the oversight committee or whatever. It shows that, yes, these guys can be held accountable for their actions, and the watchmen watching the watchmen are just as fallible. Any significant inquiry into Treadstone would have blown the lid off Abbott's lies in a New York Minute. Originally Posted by Mudcat The human element, number one cause of airplane disasters, security breaches and lapses in safety. The human element. Yet another thing you have zero knowledge in. He's human? I thought he was a SADOT; Sophisticated Algorithm Designed Only for Trolling. You're doing a great job, by the way. Kudos to your programmers.
	__________________ No, I'd like you to answer the question in two, simple, coherent sentences. ... That's how you present credible arguments in written form. -ergo, on me giving him a 2 digit number I can think of two reasons why bedunkers are often so loathe to explain their theories using plain, concise language--words even. - ergo

26th May 2012, 08:14 AM	#242
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,643	Originally Posted by 000063 I liked that bit at the end of the first Bourne movie where Abbott lies his pants off to the oversight committee or whatever. It shows that, yes, these guys can be held accountable for their actions, and the watchmen watching the watchmen are just as fallible. Any significant inquiry into Treadstone would have blown the lid off Abbott's lies in a New York Minute. That was a good movie. Are there any others I should watch so I can learn more about how the CIA actually works? I would like to be an expert and an authority.
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,643

26th May 2012, 06:09 PM	#246
Sabrina Wicked Lovely Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Spinning through space Posts: 6,874	For the record, I'm a consultant; I work for Deloitte. I happen to hold a security clearance from my military service that Deloitte is able to use at various government agencies, so I am a government consultant. I do not work directly for the government except in my capacity as a US Army Captain. In that capacity, I am a 35D (All-Source Intelligence Officer) and am experienced in working with various types of intel to benefit the overall mission of my unit. Just to set the record straight.
	__________________ "Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is the right thing to do."-Justice Potter Stewart, US Supreme Court Justice 1915-1985 *Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons... for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.* *Sins are very desirable... as long as no one judges you for them.*

26th May 2012, 06:33 PM	#247
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,769	Originally Posted by Sabrina For the record, I'm a consultant; I work for Deloitte. I happen to hold a security clearance from my military service that Deloitte is able to use at various government agencies, so I am a government consultant. I do not work directly for the government except in my capacity as a US Army Captain. In that capacity, I am a 35D (All-Source Intelligence Officer) and am experienced in working with various types of intel to benefit the overall mission of my unit. Just to set the record straight. In your professional opinion what is the likelihood of a perfect coverup like the ones suggested by conspiracy nuts?
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven.

27th May 2012, 03:03 AM	#249
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 8,056	Originally Posted by Sabrina For the record, I'm a consultant; I work for Deloitte. I happen to hold a security clearance from my military service that Deloitte is able to use at various government agencies, so I am a government consultant. I do not work directly for the government except in my capacity as a US Army Captain. In that capacity, I am a 35D (All-Source Intelligence Officer) and am experienced in working with various types of intel to benefit the overall mission of my unit. Just to set the record straight. Wow, that nearly beats Richard Clarke... yet he was there.
	__________________ Breaking The Set

26th May 2012, 08:21 AM	#243
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,471	Originally Posted by ergo Oh, I see. You mocked and ridiculed "truthers" on an internet message board. It's not like they exist in real life, so knocking them down on interbet forums is the only venue available.

26th May 2012, 03:22 PM	#244
SpringHallConvert Banned Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,272	Originally Posted by Moss SHC missed the obvious implication: Low level employees know the basics how things work. So a CIA secretary knows how covert operations work, where operations are taking place anywhere on the globe, what the overall goal of the operations are, where the money for the operations is coming from, and who are the operatives involved? Hang on a second... Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha! There's total B.S., and then there's Government Truth B.S., for when you really need to tell a whopper of a fib.

26th May 2012, 04:03 PM	#245
Moss Dramatocrat Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Heiligsblechle country Posts: 3,229	Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert So a CIA secretary knows how covert operations work, where operations are taking place anywhere on the globe, what the overall goal of the operations are, where the money for the operations is coming from, and who are the operatives involved? Hang on a second... Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha! There's total B.S., and then there's Government Truth B.S., for when you really need to tell a whopper of a fib. For some odd reason I seem to remember I was talking about basics, you on the other hand seem to be talking about specific details... You wouldn't be trying to build a strawman there, would you? Apart from low level employee != secretary and all that.

26th May 2012, 06:55 PM	#248
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 4,047	Originally Posted by Mudcat In your professional opinion what is the likelihood of a perfect coverup like the ones suggested by conspiracy nuts? In my professional opinion, a "perfect cover-up" involving more than one human is a creation of a fiction writer.

27th May 2012, 03:08 AM	#250
JihadJane Penultimate Satisfaction Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 43,031	Originally Posted by BStrong In my professional opinion, a "perfect cover-up" involving more than one human is a creation of a fiction writer. Sure, no one gets away with crime in real life.
	__________________ THE END of the recession IS NIGH

27th May 2012, 03:58 AM	#251
gabeygoat Muse Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hard Corvallis, Oregon Posts: 672	Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert So a CIA secretary knows how covert operations work, where operations are taking place anywhere on the globe, what the overall goal of the operations are, where the money for the operations is coming from, and who are the operatives involved? Hang on a second... Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha! There's total B.S., and then there's Government Truth B.S., for when you really need to tell a whopper of a fib. If a CIA secretary is to be considered ignorant in your opinion, then why should anyone listen to you, when you're not even at the level of a CIA secretary?

27th May 2012, 06:16 AM	#252
newton3376 The Truth Movement.....still not at 1% Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,315	Originally Posted by Sabrina For the record, I'm a consultant; I work for Deloitte. I happen to hold a security clearance from my military service that Deloitte is able to use at various government agencies, so I am a government consultant. I do not work directly for the government except in my capacity as a US Army Captain. In that capacity, I am a 35D (All-Source Intelligence Officer) and am experienced in working with various types of intel to benefit the overall mission of my unit. Just to set the record straight. Interesting.........I thought you might be a 35E..........
	__________________ AE911 Truth....still failing to get 1%

27th May 2012, 07:02 AM	#253
LSSBB Devilish Dictionarian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: An elusive house at Bachelor's Grove Cemetery Posts: 4,742	Originally Posted by newton3376 Interesting.........I thought you might be a 35E.......... That's what the Army gets for using suggestive MOS codes, I guess. Let's see you turn the Navy designator of 1115 (Surface Warfare) into a double entendre'.
	__________________ "Things that never happened before happen all the time." (Scott Sagan, 1993) "Put down the Wite-Out and step away from the dictionary." (000063, 2012) "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." (John Kenneth Galbraith, 1971)

27th May 2012, 08:44 AM	#254
newton3376 The Truth Movement.....still not at 1% Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,315	Originally Posted by LSSBB That's what the Army gets for using suggestive MOS codes, I guess. Let's see you turn the Navy designator of 1115 (Surface Warfare) into a double entendre'. LOL I didn't mean it like that...... At any rate the fact remains that the stuff we have been saying is from personal experience and not wishful thinking. I wish certain people would listen and stop this nonsense.
	__________________ AE911 Truth....still failing to get 1%

27th May 2012, 09:00 AM	#255
beachnut Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Dog House Posts: 19,953	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress Wow, that nearly beats Richard Clarke... yet he was there. Where? The OP is fictional nonsense - you are saying Richard Clarke was the one threating the nuts at "Press for Truth" and responsible for all the nonsense related to the OP? This is worse than the CIT support.

27th May 2012, 09:02 AM	#256
LSSBB Devilish Dictionarian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: An elusive house at Bachelor's Grove Cemetery Posts: 4,742	Originally Posted by newton3376 LOL I didn't mean it like that...... At any rate the fact remains that the stuff we have been saying is from personal experience and not wishful thinking. I wish certain people would listen and stop this nonsense. Now I feel bad for reading double meaning into your comment. To quick on the draw for the joke. Agreed on the "Listen". It is true that not everyone on the internet, by far, is whom they claim to be. On the other hand, you shouldn't automatically assume that someone you don't know is lying about their credentials, on the basis that you don't like what they say or that it challenges your tightly held beliefs, and that is where some posting on here have failed.
	__________________ "Things that never happened before happen all the time." (Scott Sagan, 1993) "Put down the Wite-Out and step away from the dictionary." (000063, 2012) "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." (John Kenneth Galbraith, 1971)

27th May 2012, 11:32 AM	#257
newton3376 The Truth Movement.....still not at 1% Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,315	Originally Posted by LSSBB Now I feel bad for reading double meaning into your comment. To quick on the draw for the joke. Agreed on the "Listen". It is true that not everyone on the internet, by far, is whom they claim to be. On the other hand, you shouldn't automatically assume that someone you don't know is lying about their credentials, on the basis that you don't like what they say or that it challenges your tightly held beliefs, and that is where some posting on here have failed. Well.......currently I can't even reveal what my credentials are.......maybe in a few years I will be able to. But I believe Sabrina based off of what she has written.....and since I often work in similar circles. Actually there are several people here that I believe based off of what they have written......you included.
	__________________ AE911 Truth....still failing to get 1%

27th May 2012, 12:40 PM	#258
SpringHallConvert Banned Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,272	Originally Posted by Sabrina For the record, I'm a consultant; I work for Deloitte. I happen to hold a security clearance from my military service that Deloitte is able to use at various government agencies, so I am a government consultant. I do not work directly for the government except in my capacity as a US Army Captain. In that capacity, I am a 35D (All-Source Intelligence Officer) and am experienced in working with various types of intel to benefit the overall mission of my unit. Just to set the record straight. Great. A Deloitte "consultant". So how does that make you some kind of expert on CIA covert operations?

27th May 2012, 12:49 PM	#259
SpringHallConvert Banned Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,272	Originally Posted by newton3376 Well.......currently I can't even reveal what my credentials are.......maybe in a few years I will be able to. Brilliant. The old, "I'm right because I have credentials, but can't prove it" argument. How wonderful. Some of you guys probably push brooms and change wastepaper basket liners inside government facilities and believe that gives you some kind of special insight into how the government functions. It doesn't.

27th May 2012, 02:56 PM	#260
JihadJane Penultimate Satisfaction Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 43,031	Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert Brilliant. The old, "I'm right because I have credentials, but can't prove it" argument. How wonderful. Some of you guys probably push brooms and change wastepaper basket liners inside government facilities and believe that gives you some kind of special insight into how the government functions. It doesn't.
	__________________ THE END of the recession IS NIGH

27th May 2012, 03:43 PM	#261
newton3376 The Truth Movement.....still not at 1% Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,315	Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert Brilliant. The old, "I'm right because I have credentials, but can't prove it" argument. How wonderful. Some of you guys probably push brooms and change wastepaper basket liners inside government facilities and believe that gives you some kind of special insight into how the government functions. It doesn't. SHC...........my comment really wasn't directed at you anyway. Believe what you want....you are going to anyway.
	__________________ AE911 Truth....still failing to get 1%

27th May 2012, 05:47 PM	#262
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 11,630	Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert Some of you guys probably push brooms and change wastepaper basket liners The shrinks call this "projection."

27th May 2012, 06:20 PM	#263
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,769	Originally Posted by carlitos The shrinks call this "projection." Why would they? I'd imagine they, like myself, would having a hard time of believing OTP holding down a janitorial job. Just saying.
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven.

27th May 2012, 08:00 PM	#264
thatsmystory Thinker Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 225	Originally Posted by LSSBB Now I feel bad for reading double meaning into your comment. To quick on the draw for the joke. Agreed on the "Listen". It is true that not everyone on the internet, by far, is whom they claim to be. On the other hand, you shouldn't automatically assume that someone you don't know is lying about their credentials, on the basis that you don't like what they say or that it challenges your tightly held beliefs, and that is where some posting on here have failed. The audio documentary referenced in the OP made the case that the withholding was deliberate. Meaning we aren't talking about bureaucratic inefficiency, turf battles, risk aversion, outdated computer systems, incompetence, etc. For sure these factors hindered US intelligence before 9/11 and continue to be an issue today but they do not explain away deliberate withholding. I've read almost all the mainstream 9/11 books. None to date has a credible explanation for the al-Hazmi/al-Mihdhar withholding. We have speculation that the CIA was trying to double them or that they were Saudi uncover agents posing as al Qaeda. The CIA and FBI have not declassified any 9/11 Commission interviews with Alec Station or UBLU agents. As posted above FBI agent Ali Soufan still has no explanation for the withholding. Author Lawrence Wright wrote in his Pulitzer Prize winning book The Looming Tower that CIA withholding amounted to obstruction of justice in the USS Cole investigation. He too was unable to get a explanation from the CIA. We have never heard a word from Richard Blee even though he headed Alec Station when the withholding took place from January 2000 through August 2001. We have never heard a word from Rodney Middleton who was in charge of the FBI UBLU. Middleton's unit kept the information from the Cole agents and instead a single rookie agent was given a routine priority intel side investigation to track al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar. There is no good reason why the public should not know what was going on in these units.
thatsmystory Thinker Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 225	Last edited by thatsmystory; 27th May 2012 at 08:03 PM.

27th May 2012, 10:58 PM	#265
beachnut Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Dog House Posts: 19,953	Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert Brilliant. The old, "I'm right because I have credentials, but can't prove it" argument. How wonderful. Some of you guys probably push brooms and change wastepaper basket liners inside government facilities and believe that gives you some kind of special insight into how the government functions. It doesn't. It appears being a janitor is all that is needed to understand 911 better than you do. Here is what I did for my job, I swept up a lot of air and turned it into thrust. I am a janitor, and I understand 911; you don't. Oh, I pass gas too, and love photography, and flew jets, and some engineering on the side - what do you do besides fail to understand 911 and call people liars? I just took out the trash. The OP remains nonsense, or worse. Originally Posted by thatsmystory ... We have speculation ... or that they were Saudi uncover agents posing as al Qaeda. ... You speculate two of the hijackers were undercover agents? Is that special 911 truth logic, or did you come up with that all by yourself? or worse

28th May 2012, 04:02 AM	#266
000063 Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Not America. Posts: 4,739	Originally Posted by marplots That was a good movie. Are there any others I should watch so I can learn more about how the CIA actually works? I would like to be an expert and an authority. Le Carre's books are pretty accurate, I'm told. Also, surprisingly, Burn Notice, which makes a point of showing how spies are just as human as anyone. They can be exploited, blackmailed, emotionally compromised, and so on. They actually have an ex-spy as a consultant. There's also it's predecessor The Equalizer. Originally Posted by carlitos The shrinks call this "projection." I shouldn't laugh, really I shouldn't.
	__________________ No, I'd like you to answer the question in two, simple, coherent sentences. ... That's how you present credible arguments in written form. -ergo, on me giving him a 2 digit number I can think of two reasons why bedunkers are often so loathe to explain their theories using plain, concise language--words even. - ergo

28th May 2012, 08:29 AM	#267
Myron Proudfoot Muse Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Washington DC area. Posts: 967	FYI, secretaries and other admin types are a prime target for recruitment by other intelligence services precisely because they often have access to materials far above their GS level as part of their jobs. That's not to say that secretaries know everything, but you can't just say "she/he doesn't know anything, they're just a secretary!"
	__________________ That's odd. That's very odd. Wouldn't you say that's very odd??

28th May 2012, 08:39 AM	#268
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 11,630	From the wikipedia plot summary of Tom Clancy's Clear and Present Danger: Quote: Cortez, a former colonel of Cuban military intelligence, has an unwitting contact inside the U.S. government — Moira Wolfson (Ann Magnuson), a secretary to Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) Director Emil Jacobs. Cortez feigns romantic interest to discover that Jacobs is visiting Colombia to negotiate with the local attorney general concerning the frozen money.

28th May 2012, 08:57 AM	#269
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 4,047	Originally Posted by beachnut It appears being a janitor is all that is needed to understand 911 better than you do. Here is what I did for my job, I swept up a lot of air and turned it into thrust. http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/l...nkerflight.jpg I am a janitor, and I understand 911; you don't. Oh, I pass gas too, and love photography, and flew jets, and some engineering on the side - what do you do besides fail to understand 911 and call people liars? I just took out the trash. The OP remains nonsense, or worse. You speculate two of the hijackers were undercover agents? Is that special 911 truth logic, or did you come up with that all by yourself? or worse Don't you know that hands-on experience with the subject matter makes you part of the plot?

28th May 2012, 11:40 AM	#270
Sabrina Wicked Lovely Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Spinning through space Posts: 6,874	Originally Posted by Mudcat In your professional opinion what is the likelihood of a perfect coverup like the ones suggested by conspiracy nuts? In my opinion? About negative infinity. In a conspiradroid's world, the government is a well-oiled machine where every part does exactly what it's supposed to do, when it's supposed to do it, and everyone can keep their big yap shut no matter what because they're either unscrupulous bastages who couldn't give a hoot for the lives that may be lost on account of their actions or they're so thoroughly cowed by the big shots that they're too scared to say anything. The reality is far less smooth, shall we say; even now, most of the agencies, intelligence or otherwise, don't get along very well, mistakes are made on a daily basis, and it's pretty clear that there are people who are willing to break their silence on how things work, either in a legitimate fashion or by violating their oaths (i.e. Sibel Edmonds and Bradley Manning, to name a few). Like I said before, there's a reason the saying goes "three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead"; the notion that a conspiracy of this size could POSSIBLY be kept secret for this long is utterly ludicrous if you know the day-to-day workings of the government agencies. Again, not just intel; all the agencies have their little foibles, and they are hardly the well-oiled machine the conspiradroids like to say they are. But we all know SHC and his like will ignore this... as always.
	__________________ "Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is the right thing to do."-Justice Potter Stewart, US Supreme Court Justice 1915-1985 *Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons... for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.* *Sins are very desirable... as long as no one judges you for them.*

28th May 2012, 11:56 AM	#271
newton3376 The Truth Movement.....still not at 1% Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,315	Originally Posted by Sabrina The reality is far less smooth, shall we say; even now, most of the agencies, intelligence or otherwise, don't get along very well, mistakes are made on a daily basis, and it's pretty clear that there are people who are willing to break their silence on how things work, either in a legitimate fashion or by violating their oaths (i.e. Sibel Edmonds and Bradley Manning, to name a few). Sibel Edmonds.......now people want to talk about "low level' people in the Intel community...........here is one. Translators are low level people in Intel (and other agencies) and usually only know a very small piece of a very big pie (and for good reasons!). Most translators I have worked with understand their role though......unlike Sibel Edmonds who worked for 4 months. She makes me sick!
	__________________ AE911 Truth....still failing to get 1%

28th May 2012, 12:07 PM	#272
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 8,056	Sibel Edmonds founded the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition in the early days of her odyssey against a kafkaesk system and all those people, many of them high rank were happy to join. Daniel Ellsberg calls her a hero. Foot soldiers in some agencies who were successfully brainwashed into accepting a tight hierarchy and to never question authority, essentially giving up their independent thinking for a paycheck, have to hate her, because couraged people like her and her foundations members force them to look into the mirror and see the face of enablers. No surprise there.
	__________________ Breaking The Set

28th May 2012, 12:45 PM	#273
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress Sibel Edmonds founded the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition in the early days of her odyssey against a kafkaesk system and all those people, many of them high rank were happy to join. Daniel Ellsberg calls her a hero. Foot soldiers in some agencies who were successfully brainwashed into accepting a tight hierarchy and to never question authority, essentially giving up their independent thinking for a paycheck, have to hate her, because couraged people like her and her foundations members force them to look into the mirror and see the face of enablers. No surprise there. Kafkaesque.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

28th May 2012, 01:08 PM	#274
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 8,056	Originally Posted by dafydd Kafkaesque. Herr K. would disagree, spelling Nazi.
	__________________ Breaking The Set

28th May 2012, 01:52 PM	#275
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress Herr K. would disagree, spelling Nazi. If we were writing in German then I would agree with you. The English language would disagree with you. Back to the topic.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away. Last edited by dafydd; 28th May 2012 at 01:53 PM.