Why are Iranians so secular? - Page 2

Humes fork · 31st May 2012, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Zelenius

Still, the answer to your question is simple and has already been answered

Not really.

Originally Posted by Zelenius

Many Persians hate it when westerners think they are Arabs, they are in fact very different people. Certain Iranian atheists I know will practically wear their anti-Islamic stance on their sleeves to demonstrate just how non-Arab they are.

I'm well aware of that Iranians don't like it when people think they are Arabs. This is in contrast to Pakistanis and Somalis who love to be Arabs.

Originally Posted by Zelenius

At the risk of going too far off topic, Iran is a very fascinating country, it's been like one big social experiment in theocratic governance since 1979. Now we see the results. We are all too familiar with how the religious right in the U.S and their counterparts in other parts of the world always claim that a lack of religiousness leads to social decay. We need more religion, they say, we need more religion in the government and the schools, and everything would be so much better.

This reminds me of how a Bangladeshi secularist described fundamentalist explanations of floodings in the country. When it was a secular government, the fundamentalists claimed the floodings were a punishment from Allah. When it was a theocratic government, the fundamentalists claimed the floodings were the result of Allah testing their faith.

Originally Posted by Zelenius

Yet in ultra-religious, theocratic Iran, based on my readings and personal accounts from Iranian friends, crime is a serious problem, drug abuse is an epidemic, prostitution is rampant in the cities and the government is one of the most corrupt in the entire world.

The boldened part probably has more to do with Iran being the neighbour of the world's heroin factory than its government.

Originally Posted by Zelenius

Some religious Christians may claim this is because the Iranians practice the "wrong" religion. They should be loving Jesus, not Mohammed. And yet again, compare secular states and counties with religious states and counties in the U.S, and there is often but not always an inverse correlation between religiousness and crime and measures of "social decay".

If you think about it, the countries with the highest murder rates in the world, like Mexico and Brazil, are deeply religious. Afghanistan and Pakistan are some of the most religious countries on the planet, yet they are also very, very corrupt.

3point14 · 1st June 2012, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by mikeyx

wrong.......

Congratulations. That's a strong candidate for 'most useless post ever'.

Really? What were you hoping to achieve with this? Hoping that we'd all read the OP and then read your post and simply dismiss the OP with 'oh, Mickyx says it's wrong, must be then..'

Really, this is a critical thinking forum. I can see no evidence of any form of thinking in your post.

Why don't you have another go and tell us all why you think that the OP is wrong. Who knows, maybe we'll agree with you. I'll even promise to over-ride the immense bias I will feel towards you and your opinions in this matter that's been generated by your first, terribly unhelpful, post.

Go on, what are your reasons? Where is your evidence? what is your thought process?

Go on, it's a topic I know nothing about - educate me.

Mark6 · 1st June 2012, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Humes fork

What deep wisdom to be found in that reply.

Thanks for reminding me why mikeyx is on my Ignore list!

Humes fork · 1st June 2012, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by 3point14

Congratulations. That's a strong candidate for 'most useless post ever'.

Really? What were you hoping to achieve with this? Hoping that we'd all read the OP and then read your post and simply dismiss the OP with 'oh, Mickyx says it's wrong, must be then..'

Really, this is a critical thinking forum. I can see no evidence of any form of thinking in your post.

Why don't you have another go and tell us all why you think that the OP is wrong. Who knows, maybe we'll agree with you. I'll even promise to over-ride the immense bias I will feel towards you and your opinions in this matter that's been generated by your first, terribly unhelpful, post.

Go on, what are your reasons? Where is your evidence? what is your thought process?

Go on, it's a topic I know nothing about - educate me.

He didn't even state what was wrong. Diaspora Iranians are not relatively secular? Some of my ideas of why diaspora Iranians are secular are wrong? Or wrong?

31st May 2012, 01:22 PM	#41
Humes fork Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,356	Originally Posted by Zelenius Still, the answer to your question is simple and has already been answered Not really. Originally Posted by Zelenius Many Persians hate it when westerners think they are Arabs, they are in fact very different people. Certain Iranian atheists I know will practically wear their anti-Islamic stance on their sleeves to demonstrate just how non-Arab they are. I'm well aware of that Iranians don't like it when people think they are Arabs. This is in contrast to Pakistanis and Somalis who love to be Arabs. Originally Posted by Zelenius At the risk of going too far off topic, Iran is a very fascinating country, it's been like one big social experiment in theocratic governance since 1979. Now we see the results. We are all too familiar with how the religious right in the U.S and their counterparts in other parts of the world always claim that a lack of religiousness leads to social decay. We need more religion, they say, we need more religion in the government and the schools, and everything would be so much better. This reminds me of how a Bangladeshi secularist described fundamentalist explanations of floodings in the country. When it was a secular government, the fundamentalists claimed the floodings were a punishment from Allah. When it was a theocratic government, the fundamentalists claimed the floodings were the result of Allah testing their faith. Originally Posted by Zelenius Yet in ultra-religious, theocratic Iran, based on my readings and personal accounts from Iranian friends, crime is a serious problem, drug abuse is an epidemic, prostitution is rampant in the cities and the government is one of the most corrupt in the entire world. The boldened part probably has more to do with Iran being the neighbour of the world's heroin factory than its government. Originally Posted by Zelenius Some religious Christians may claim this is because the Iranians practice the "wrong" religion. They should be loving Jesus, not Mohammed. And yet again, compare secular states and counties with religious states and counties in the U.S, and there is often but not always an inverse correlation between religiousness and crime and measures of "social decay". If you think about it, the countries with the highest murder rates in the world, like Mexico and Brazil, are deeply religious. Afghanistan and Pakistan are some of the most religious countries on the planet, yet they are also very, very corrupt.
	__________________ "Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." - Christopher Hitchens Last edited by Humes fork; 31st May 2012 at 01:25 PM.

1st June 2012, 04:39 AM	#42
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London ish Posts: 3,596	Originally Posted by mikeyx wrong....... Congratulations. That's a strong candidate for 'most useless post ever'. Really? What were you hoping to achieve with this? Hoping that we'd all read the OP and then read your post and simply dismiss the OP with 'oh, Mickyx says it's wrong, must be then..' Really, this is a critical thinking forum. I can see no evidence of any form of thinking in your post. Why don't you have another go and tell us all why you think that the OP is wrong. Who knows, maybe we'll agree with you. I'll even promise to over-ride the immense bias I will feel towards you and your opinions in this matter that's been generated by your first, terribly unhelpful, post. Go on, what are your reasons? Where is your evidence? what is your thought process? Go on, it's a topic I know nothing about - educate me.
	__________________ Cull the delusional.

1st June 2012, 11:44 AM	#43
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,176	Originally Posted by Humes fork What deep wisdom to be found in that reply. Thanks for reminding me why mikeyx is on my Ignore list!
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,176	__________________ Gamemaster: "A horde of rotting zombies is shambling toward you. The sign over the door says 'Accounting'"

1st June 2012, 12:54 PM	#44
Humes fork Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,356	Originally Posted by 3point14 Congratulations. That's a strong candidate for 'most useless post ever'. Really? What were you hoping to achieve with this? Hoping that we'd all read the OP and then read your post and simply dismiss the OP with 'oh, Mickyx says it's wrong, must be then..' Really, this is a critical thinking forum. I can see no evidence of any form of thinking in your post. Why don't you have another go and tell us all why you think that the OP is wrong. Who knows, maybe we'll agree with you. I'll even promise to over-ride the immense bias I will feel towards you and your opinions in this matter that's been generated by your first, terribly unhelpful, post. Go on, what are your reasons? Where is your evidence? what is your thought process? Go on, it's a topic I know nothing about - educate me. He didn't even state what was wrong. Diaspora Iranians are not relatively secular? Some of my ideas of why diaspora Iranians are secular are wrong? Or wrong?
	__________________ "Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." - Christopher Hitchens