The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy

[welshdean]

Originally Posted by welshdean

Doc, how many days and nights was Jeebus dead for? Out of all the prophetic verses in the bable, you can prove this one, surely.

Doc, lest you foget.

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by DOC

noun
παραγωγή production, manufacture, output, generation, derivation, procreation

γενεά generation, race

γέννηση birth, generation, nativity, procreation, nascency, progenitur

http://translate.google.com/?tl=el&q...|el|generation

Mark 9:1

Quote:

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

[catsmate1]

Originally Posted by DOC

My point is legitimate, it is not a derail. If you make a big deal of proof in one arena, it is a legitimate point to make to ask why you don't demand proof in one of your own belief systems.

No. It's another attempt to wallpaper over your utter failure to provide evidence for your claims of fulfilled biblical prophecy, the sunject of this discussion.

Originally Posted by DOC

noun
παραγωγή production, manufacture, output, generation, derivation, procreation

γενεά generation, race

γέννηση birth, generation, nativity, procreation, nascency, progenitur

http://translate.google.com/?tl=el&q=undefined#auto|el|generation

Originally Posted by welshdean

Doc, lest you foget.

Be patient, I'm sure DOC will be along with an answer soon.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by welshdean

He was allowed to enter half of Jerusalem. Goebbels was banned 'sine die'.

[Fast Eddie B]

From that same image host:



Hee hee.

Hope linking that image isn't violating any site protocol - I'm never quite sure.

[Akhenaten]

Originally Posted by welshdean

He was allowed to enter half of Jerusalem. Goebbels was banned 'sine die'.

And Himmler?

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

And Himmler?

It's possible I'm confused here, but was he banned from Simla?

[Akhenaten]

Apparently that song is part of our combined heritage.

[TimCallahan]

Originally Posted by DOC

noun
παραγωγή production, manufacture, output, generation, derivation, procreation

γενεά generation, race

γέννηση birth, generation, nativity, procreation, nascency, progenitur

http://translate.google.com/?tl=el&q...|el|generation

Genos is more specifically "race" or "tribe" than is genea. Yes, there is enough imprecision in language that you can fudge genea, "generation," to also cover "race." However, this is but one of the New Testament predictions of the end of the world taking place in the generation that knew Jesus. Here are a few of the others:

Mt. 16:27, 28: For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory o his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mt. 10:23: When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel, before the Son of man comes.

1 Cor. 7:29 - 31: I mean, brethren, the appointed time has grown very short; from now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the form of this world is passing away.

Taken in the context not only of the Olivet Discourse (or Little Apocalypse), but that of the New Testament in general, there is no way one can honestly construe genea to mean "race" rather than "generation."

[Agatha]

Originally Posted by DOC

Originally Posted by Agatha

What the chuff does the origin of life, or dafydd's beliefs, have to do with fulfilled Bible prophecies? I don't understand why you are trying to derail the thread with a completely unrelated issue.

My point is legitimate, it is not a derail. If you make a big deal of proof in one arena, it is a legitimate point to make to ask why you don't demand proof in one of your own belief systems.

Apart from being a tu quoque (something you should know about from that much-vaunted logic course of yours), you've packed a fair amount of misunderstanding into your statement above - atheism isn't a belief system, it's the null hypothesis. A 'belief in abiogenesis is common to both believers and nonbelievers, the believers rely on God doing a bit of magic to give life to non-life. Nonbelievers suggest that life came about through natural processes. No difference, and yes it is obviously a derail.

However, if you actually read my posts for comprehension, you would see that I rarely if ever ask for proof, merely for evidence. Do you have any evidence of fulfilled Bible prophecy?

[DOC]

Quote:

Mark 9:1

Quote:
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Accurate prophecy of the power they received on the day of Pentecost.

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Originally Posted by DOC

Accurate prophecy of the power they received on the day of Pentecost.

So somebody writing down that he heard that a bunch of guys SAID they saw something = the kingdom of god is established on earth.

Well at least it explains why you feel all prophecies are fullfilled. If you're willing to go that route pretty much any ramblings written or said by anyone are a fullfillment as it doesnt even have to make sense.

[DOC]

Originally Posted by ddt

Really, DOC? Google Translate, not even a proper dictionary?...

How about "Young's Literal translation" which describes what the Greek text literally says.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;
Mar 13:31 the heaven and the earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mar 13:32 And concerning that day and the hour no one hath known -- not even the messengers who are in the heaven, not even the Son.

Notice the word "may" and notice Christ saying in verse 32 no one knows the day or hour.

[Resume]

Originally Posted by DOC

How about "Young's Literal translation":

Mark 13:30 Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;
Mar 13:31 the heaven and the earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mar 13:32 And concerning that day and the hour no one hath known -- not even the messengers who are in the heaven, not even the Son.

Notice the word "may" and notice Christ saying in verse 32 no one knows the day or hour.

Cue weasel graphic.

[Fast Eddie B]

Originally Posted by Resume

Cue weasel graphic.

That's funny!

I was about to point out that "may" is the classic weasel word.

[ddt]

Originally Posted by DOC

How about "Young's Literal translation" which describes what the Greek text literally says.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;
Mar 13:31 the heaven and the earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mar 13:32 And concerning that day and the hour no one hath known -- not even the messengers who are in the heaven, not even the Son.

Notice the word "may" and notice Christ saying in verse 32 no one knows the day or hour.

We've already gone over that before, DOC. See this post of mine. Both mays are not literal at all: they are botched translations of the Greek subjunctive. But the subjunctive here is simply needed because the conjunction used prescribes it. Consult the concordances.org site I quoted before if you doubt that.

And instead of repeating the same failed arguments, spend some time in actually learning Ancient Greek and evaluate the arguments you want to put forward before once again arguing the meaning of the NT text. FYI, I had five years of Ancient Greek in high school. That may be a long time ago, but I still have a good grasp of the grammar involved.

PS. Akhenaten, thanks for the link to my previous post on the word genea.

ETA: And DOC thanks for backing up my claim that "your honesty knows no bounds". You brought up your two failed arguments - about the meaning of γενεα, and the "literal" translation of the Olivet discourse - in the same post #1930 and I reacted to them in the same post # 1947, which Akhenaten quoted in post #2913. Even when it's right in front of you, you ignore what's posted.

[joobz]

Originally Posted by DOC

How about "Young's Literal translation" which describes what the Greek text literally says.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;
Mar 13:31 the heaven and the earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mar 13:32 And concerning that day and the hour no one hath known -- not even the messengers who are in the heaven, not even the Son.

Notice the word "may" and notice Christ saying in verse 32 no one knows the day or hour.

Cool.
In that case, I can make a fulfilled prophecy!


Verily I say to you, some may not take a nappy until DOC may prove the bible true!

[Akhenaten]

Originally Posted by DOC

Quote:

Mark 9:1

Quote:
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Accurate prophecy of the power they received on the day of Pentecost.

What power? What kingdom?

Pics or it didn't happen.

[joobz]

I've just had another vision:

Verily, I say unto you, There are some who post here who may not drink bourbon until they may use the read a good book.

[Akhenaten]

Originally Posted by DOC

How about "Young's Literal translation" which describes what the Greek text literally says.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;
Mar 13:31 the heaven and the earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mar 13:32 And concerning that day and the hour no one hath known -- not even the messengers who are in the heaven, not even the Son.

Notice the word "may" and notice Christ saying in verse 32 no one knows the day or hour.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by DOC

Mark 13:30 Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;
[ . . . snip . . .]
Notice the word "may" and notice Christ saying in verse 32 no one knows the day or hour.

Quote:

ver·i·ly/ˈverəlē/
Adverb: Truly; certainly.
Synonyms: indeed - really - truly - forsooth - actually
More info »Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster - The Free Dictionary

So, it is certain that this generation may not pass . . .

Yeah! That makes sense.

[Akhenaten]

Originally Posted by DOC

Mar 13:32 And concerning that day and the hour no one hath known -- not even the messengers who are in the heaven, not even the Son.

Polytheistic drivel.

If you only had one god perhaps there wouldn't be so much confusion.

[Resume]

Originally Posted by DOC

How about "Young's Literal translation" which describes what the Greek text literally says.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;
Mar 13:31 the heaven and the earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mar 13:32 And concerning that day and the hour no one hath known -- not even the messengers who are in the heaven, not even the Son.

Notice the word "may" and notice Christ saying in verse 32 no one knows the day or hour.

Originally Posted by Resume

Cue weasel graphic.

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/May.png

Seek, and ye shall find.

[Akhenaten]

Ask, and it shall be given you.

[Akhenaten]

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

Taken in the context not only of the Olivet Discourse (or Little Apocalypse), but that of the New Testament in general, there is no way one can honestly construe genea to mean "race" rather than "generation."

You don't really think someone who would attempt to pass off Google translations of modern Greek words as defining their Koine Greek meanings is interested in an honest discussion, do you?

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by DOC

Accurate prophecy of the power they received on the day of Pentecost.

The author of the late work 2 Peter knows nothing of this. Confronted by "mockers" he can only plead

Quote:

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Notice the future tense. He doesn't respond to the mockers by saying, as you absurdly do, that the event already happened in the modest form of a few people hallucinating visions of flames, and being taken for drunks by passers by.

[I Ratant]

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

What power? ...

.
The power of hoodoo.
Hoodoo?
You do.
What?
Remind me of a man.
What man?
The man of power.
What power?............................................ ..............................

[I Ratant]

Originally Posted by Resume

Seek, and ye shall find.

.
When England passed motorcycle helmet laws, the Sikhs protested because of their required turbans being impossible to cover with a helmet.
The response was...
"Sikh, and ye shall be fined" if caught without a helmet.

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
When England passed motorcycle helmet laws, the Sikhs protested because of their required turbans being impossible to cover with a helmet.
The response was...
"Sikh, and ye shall be fined" if caught without a helmet.

That was in 1972, but a couple of years later, the Motor-Cycle Crash Helmets (Religious Exemption) Act 1976 was passed, and Sikhs are now exempt from wearing a crash helmet if they are wearing a turban.

[TimCallahan]

Originally Posted by DOC

Accurate prophecy of the power they received on the day of Pentecost.

I realize that using the miracle of Pentecost as fulfillment of the prophecy as expressed in Luke is a common Christian apologetic. However, leaving aside the fact that we have no independent attestation of this miracle, this would only work with the version in Luke 9:27, which says, ". . . there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God." Note the more specific description in boldface below, in the version of the prophecy in Matthew 16:27, 28:

For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

There are a number important points to be noted here:

1) Christians generally assert that the gospel writers were, at least implicitly, trinitarian. Acts 2:4 specifically states that the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit. Thus, the miracle of Pentecost cannot refer to the phrase in Mt. 16:28 of, "the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

2) Christian apologists frequently assert that, when there are differences between the gospels in parallel verses, the more complete and detailed version takes precedence over the less detailed version. The form of the prophecy in Matthew 16 is clearly far more detailed than the version in Luke 9.

3) Even in the version in Luke 9:27, the verse preceding the prophecy refers to the Son of man coming in the glory of his Father. Only by divorcing this verse from the one immediately following can one construe either not tasting death before seeing the "kingdom of God" (Luke) or the "Son of man coming in his kingdom" (Matthew) as being anything but the Second Coming.

4) The passage in Matthew also explicitly states (mt. 16:27):

For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done.

I don't see how the phrase I've put in boldface can refer to anything other than the last judgment.

5) Finally, as I previously noted, in the context of the apocalyptic mindset of the New Testament as expressed in many other statements, the logical interpretation of the verses above can only refer to the world ending in the generation that knew Jesus. Again, as previously noted, here are two more references to the world ending in the time of the generation that knew Jesus:

Mt. 10:23: When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel, before the Son of man comes.

1 Cor. 7:29 - 31: I mean, brethren, the appointed time has grown very short; from now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the form of this world is passing away.

Since the world obviously did not end 2,000 years ago, these are specific, failed prophecies.

[kmortis]

Yeah, verily, I hast had a vision! I saw a great rending of the heavens and from that rent a huge dove descended and pooped upon the countryside. From the resulting pile of ordure, a flag arose with the phrase "...unsourced post" was written upon it.

Here endeth the lesson.


ETA: In case it needs to be spelled out, Tim is not the dove.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by kmortis

Yeah, verily, I hast had a vision! I saw a great rending of the heavens and from that rent a huge dove descended and pooped upon the countryside. From the resulting pile of ordure, a flag arose with the phrase "...unsourced post" was written upon it.

Here endeth the lesson.


ETA: In case it needs to be spelled out, Tim is not the dove.

And it was a real lesson, in stark contrast to biblical ''lessons''.

[welshdean]

Originally Posted by kmortis

Yeah, verily, I hast had a vision! I saw a great rending of the heavens and from that rent a huge dove descended and pooped upon the countryside. From the resulting pile of ordure, a flag arose with the phrase "...unsourced post" was written upon it.

Here endeth the lesson.


ETA: In case it needs to be spelled out, Tim is not the dove.

Why did I assume a pirate voice from the word 'hast'? It sounds weird in pirate.

[DOC]

Quote:
Mark 9:1

Quote:
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Originally Posted by DOC

Accurate prophecy of the power they received on the day of Pentecost.

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

What power?...

The power to basically cause the extinction of the entrenched Greek and Roman gods that huge temples were built in honor of, the power to cause us to be talking about it 2000 years later, and possibly the power to effect the 2012 election. Also the power to get people off drugs, alcohol (e.g. George W. Bush), and the power to change millions of people lives for the better -- that power.

[DOC]

Originally Posted by DOC

How about "Young's Literal translation" which describes what the Greek text literally says.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;
Mar 13:31 the heaven and the earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mar 13:32 And concerning that day and the hour no one hath known -- not even the messengers who are in the heaven, not even the Son.

Notice the word "may" and notice Christ saying in verse 32 no one knows the day or hour.

Originally Posted by ddt

We've already gone over that before, DOC. See this post of mine. Both mays are not literal at all: they are botched translations of the Greek subjunctive. But the subjunctive here is simply needed because the conjunction used prescribes it. Consult the concordances.org site I quoted before if you doubt that...

This is just an opinion without a "clear" explanation with sources; bottom line is that it says "may".

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by DOC

Quote:
Mark 9:1

Quote:
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.



The power to basically cause the extinction of the entrenched Greek and Roman gods that huge temples were built in honor of,

Power to cause the extinction of something that didn't exist?

Quote:

the power to cause us to be talking about it 2000 years later,

By that logic, the Greek and Roman gods are more real, because we're talking about them now, too, but even longer after they were first mentioned.

Quote:

and possibly the power to effect the 2012 election. Also the power to get people off drugs, alcohol (e.g. George W. Bush), and the power to change millions of people lives for the better -- that power.

Sorry, that's just nonsense. (I think you mean 'affect', not 'effect'.)

And none of that means that the prophecy didn't fail; the kingdom of god hasn't arrived yet. 2 Peter 3:10, written after Pentecost:

Quote:

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

It hasn't happened yet.

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by DOC

This is just an opinion without a "clear" explanation with sources; bottom line is that it says "may".

It's very good of you to summarise your own post, so we can give it the appropriate attention.

Originally Posted by KJV

Mark 13
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Oh, look, it says "shall".

[DOC]

Originally Posted by psionl0

So, it is certain that this generation may not pass . . .

Yeah! That makes sense.

You didn't use the first definition of Truly and you added "So, it is"

Suppose a doctor says to you, I'll be !00% truthful with you, you may not live another 6 weeks.

That would seem like something a doctor might say.

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by DOC

...The power to basically cause the extinction of the entrenched Greek and Roman gods that huge temples were built in honor of, the power to cause us to be talking about it 2000 years later, and possibly the power to effect the 2012 election. Also the power to get people off drugs, alcohol (e.g. George W. Bush), and the power to change millions of people lives for the better -- that power.

DOC, do you really think the creator of all that is seen and unseen sent his only begotten son so that Obama will be re-elected in 2012?

[DOC]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Oh, look, it says "shall".

We're talking about "Young's Literal Translation" which is a "literal translation" of the Greek Text. It says "may".