Here we go again - Page 4

Niggle · 4th June 2012, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

That must be in forums in which I don't spend much time. Do you think these folks would actually act on their beliefs, or are they just blathering?

~~ Paul

Would you risk it if you were the one being threatened with rape?

Damien Evans · 4th June 2012, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Niggle

Would you risk it if you were the one being threatened with rape?

If Rebecca has in fact received these threats, why has she not reported them to the police?

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos · 5th June 2012, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by Niggle

Would you risk it if you were the one being threatened with rape?

I guess it would depend on how serious people seemed to be. I've been threatened, but I didn't think the person would act on the threat. Of course, I have no experience with being threatened with rape.

~~ Paul

MattusMaximus · 5th June 2012, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by TsarBomba

Jeez Cleon, talk about a straw-man. I didn't say anything like that all. I merely pointed out a set of facts. My personal conclusion is that she saw the potential to hop on the growing firestorm and took it, and did so happily, for a number of reasons, including the benefits to Skepchickcon. IMHO she is pretty machiavellian, and DJ isn't.

TB, I know Rebecca pretty well, and I can tell you that your conspiracy theory is pure fantasy. I have worked with both her and DJ on various skeptic stuff over the years, and while each has their strengths and faults, I respect them both.

Rebecca did not make this decision lightly. Your inference is garbage, and it is stuff like that getting spewed all over the Internet which is making this situation worse.

We should be focusing on constructive solutions to the issues at hand, not this sort of petty crap.

MattusMaximus · 5th June 2012, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Damien Evans

If Rebecca has in fact received these threats, why has she not reported them to the police?

What makes you think she hasn't? You do realize that reports of that nature tend to be kept confidential, right?

The Central Scrutinizer · 5th June 2012, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus

TB, I know Rebecca pretty well, and I can tell you that your conspiracy theory is pure fantasy. I have worked with both her and DJ on various skeptic stuff over the years, and while each has their strengths and faults, I respect them both.

Rebecca did not make this decision lightly. Your inference is garbage, and it is stuff like that getting spewed all over the Internet which is making this situation worse.

We should be focusing on constructive solutions to the issues at hand, not this sort of petty crap.

Are you going to take your shirt off again? That's what scared the women away!

MattusMaximus · 5th June 2012, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by Phlebas

Really? You think there's a conspiracy by Rebecca and Greg Laden to oust D.J. in some sort of coup and seize control of the JREF themselves? Man, I do *not* understand how the JREF BoD works at all.

And don't get too bent out of shape about Skepchicon. Last year, the one known case of overt sexual harassment led to a swift ejection of the offending party. Compare that to D.J.'s reaction to Ashley Miller.

This ^^^

I can attest to the proper handling of this situation last year at Skepchicon/Convergence, because I not only witnessed the assault, but I also helped to eject the offender from the premises. Then we followed up with hotel security and the scumbag was ejected from the rest of the Con. We bounced his ass.

And I can tell you all this... even though there were a lot of women there, and even though there were supportive men like me there who helped deal with the scumbag, it scared a lot of the women. They were quite shaken up for the rest of the weekend at what happened, and - having witnessed it - I don't blame them.

So folks, when women report this sort of thing, treat it seriously and try to have some understanding, please. I've seen it and the after effects, and it's ugly stuff that has no place in a civilized gathering of skeptics.

MattusMaximus · 5th June 2012, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

Are you going to take your shirt off again? That's what scared the women away!

Sweet talk me all you want, Scrut... I still won't let you play with my balls.

JUGGLING balls! What?!!

MattusMaximus · 5th June 2012, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by Cleon

OK, after a conversation I just had on FB, I think I can clear up one major piece of, ah, "misinformation."

For those who think Rebecca is trying to drive people away from TAM to Skepchickon, I offer you the following facts:

SkephickCon is not its own convention. It is a programming track at CONvergence. Rebecca has no say over its scheduling. Rebecca has nothing to gain from more people going there - registration fees go to CONvergence, not Skepchick Inc. (Even if they did, I can tell you as someone who's volunteered at cons large and small - they're not exactly known for being big moneymakers. Quite the opposite.)

Having been involved in both Skepchicon and Convergence over the past few years, I can confirm everything Cleon stated here. Anyone who buys this stupid CT about this being some kind of money-making scheme is an idiot.

orpheus · 21st June 2012, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by epepke

Here's how it goes.

Rebecca Watson demonstrably used her privilege to misrepresent and contemptuously criticize at least three women: Paula Kirby, Stef McGraw, and Rose st. Clair. In the case of Paula Kirby, there is evidence that it had intimidating effect. In the case of Rose st. Clair, there is particular irony, as while Watsons output made insinuations about putting down the experience of women who had been sexually battered, st. Clair actually had previously blogged about being sexually battered!

This is all demonstrable, and we don't have to go further into judgment than that needed to read words and look at videos.

Now, it would be nice if some people could simply have the basic honesty and decency admit that they thought denigrating, dismissing, and intimidating women was just fantastic, provided that it's done from Watson's ideological perspective. Maybe they could make a sensible case for it, but they don't even seem to try.

Instead, we get this insinuation that anybody who thinks that these three women were treated unfairly is a virulent anti-feminist who hates women. Pheeeuuw!

Not much better is the belief that some sort of sensible discussion about a real problem can be dragged out of this. The drama has come to dominate. This is like trying to have a discussion about climatology when the chief spokesperson who sets the context is Rush Limbaugh. It does no good to nod sagely whilst ignoring the 500 pound gorilla in the room.

If people actually wanted to discuss any real issue, well, maybe they could have a panel with some women, but Paula Kirby would get to speak too. The whole basis of the Watsonian drama is that women like Kirby are dog dirt and deserve to be kicked to the curb.

This is not an appeal to listen to women. It is an appeal to ignore and dismiss them.

Well said.

4th June 2012, 03:21 PM	#121
Niggle Basement Cat's Evil Twin Skippy Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Connecticut Posts: 603	Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos That must be in forums in which I don't spend much time. Do you think these folks would actually act on their beliefs, or are they just blathering? ~~ Paul Would you risk it if you were the one being threatened with rape?
	__________________ Niggle is correct... Niggle is extremely correct. -Remirol

4th June 2012, 07:50 PM	#122
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 25,311	Originally Posted by Niggle Would you risk it if you were the one being threatened with rape? If Rebecca has in fact received these threats, why has she not reported them to the police?
	__________________ WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? - Death "Racism is a disease in society. We're all equal. I don't care what their colour is, or religion. Just as long as they're human beings they're my buddies." - Mandawuy Yunupingu, lead singer of Yothu Yindi

5th June 2012, 08:12 AM	#123
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Nap, interrupted. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 18,592	Originally Posted by Niggle Would you risk it if you were the one being threatened with rape? I guess it would depend on how serious people seemed to be. I've been threatened, but I didn't think the person would act on the threat. Of course, I have no experience with being threatened with rape. ~~ Paul
	__________________ Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny

5th June 2012, 08:51 PM	#124
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 14,186	Originally Posted by TsarBomba Jeez Cleon, talk about a straw-man. I didn't say anything like that all. I merely pointed out a set of facts. My personal conclusion is that she saw the potential to hop on the growing firestorm and took it, and did so happily, for a number of reasons, including the benefits to Skepchickcon. IMHO she is pretty machiavellian, and DJ isn't. TB, I know Rebecca pretty well, and I can tell you that your conspiracy theory is pure fantasy. I have worked with both her and DJ on various skeptic stuff over the years, and while each has their strengths and faults, I respect them both. Rebecca did not make this decision lightly. Your inference is garbage, and it is stuff like that getting spewed all over the Internet which is making this situation worse. We should be focusing on constructive solutions to the issues at hand, not this sort of petty crap.
	__________________ Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher The Times They Are A-Changin'

5th June 2012, 08:52 PM	#125
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 14,186	Originally Posted by Damien Evans If Rebecca has in fact received these threats, why has she not reported them to the police? What makes you think she hasn't? You do realize that reports of that nature tend to be kept confidential, right?
	__________________ Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher The Times They Are A-Changin'

5th June 2012, 08:53 PM	#126
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,278	Originally Posted by MattusMaximus TB, I know Rebecca pretty well, and I can tell you that your conspiracy theory is pure fantasy. I have worked with both her and DJ on various skeptic stuff over the years, and while each has their strengths and faults, I respect them both. Rebecca did not make this decision lightly. Your inference is garbage, and it is stuff like that getting spewed all over the Internet which is making this situation worse. We should be focusing on constructive solutions to the issues at hand, not this sort of petty crap. Are you going to take your shirt off again? That's what scared the women away!
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

5th June 2012, 09:07 PM	#127
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 14,186	Originally Posted by Phlebas Really? You think there's a conspiracy by Rebecca and Greg Laden to oust D.J. in some sort of coup and seize control of the JREF themselves? Man, I do not understand how the JREF BoD works at all. And don't get too bent out of shape about Skepchicon. Last year, the one known case of overt sexual harassment led to a swift ejection of the offending party. Compare that to D.J.'s reaction to Ashley Miller. This ^^^ I can attest to the proper handling of this situation last year at Skepchicon/Convergence, because I not only witnessed the assault, but I also helped to eject the offender from the premises. Then we followed up with hotel security and the scumbag was ejected from the rest of the Con. We bounced his ass. And I can tell you all this... even though there were a lot of women there, and even though there were supportive men like me there who helped deal with the scumbag, it scared a lot of the women. They were quite shaken up for the rest of the weekend at what happened, and - having witnessed it - I don't blame them. So folks, when women report this sort of thing, treat it seriously and try to have some understanding, please. I've seen it and the after effects, and it's ugly stuff that has no place in a civilized gathering of skeptics.
	__________________ Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher The Times They Are A-Changin'

5th June 2012, 09:09 PM	#128
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 14,186	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer Are you going to take your shirt off again? That's what scared the women away! Sweet talk me all you want, Scrut... I still won't let you play with my balls. JUGGLING balls! What?!!
	__________________ Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher The Times They Are A-Changin'

5th June 2012, 09:15 PM	#129
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 14,186	Originally Posted by Cleon OK, after a conversation I just had on FB, I think I can clear up one major piece of, ah, "misinformation." For those who think Rebecca is trying to drive people away from TAM to Skepchickon, I offer you the following facts: SkephickCon is not its own convention. It is a programming track at CONvergence. Rebecca has no say over its scheduling. Rebecca has nothing to gain from more people going there - registration fees go to CONvergence, not Skepchick Inc. (Even if they did, I can tell you as someone who's volunteered at cons large and small - they're not exactly known for being big moneymakers. Quite the opposite.) Having been involved in both Skepchicon and Convergence over the past few years, I can confirm everything Cleon stated here. Anyone who buys this stupid CT about this being some kind of money-making scheme is an idiot.
	__________________ Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher The Times They Are A-Changin'

21st June 2012, 07:16 PM	#130
orpheus Thinker Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Here. Where else is there? Posts: 233	Originally Posted by epepke Here's how it goes. Rebecca Watson demonstrably used her privilege to misrepresent and contemptuously criticize at least three women: Paula Kirby, Stef McGraw, and Rose st. Clair. In the case of Paula Kirby, there is evidence that it had intimidating effect. In the case of Rose st. Clair, there is particular irony, as while Watsons output made insinuations about putting down the experience of women who had been sexually battered, st. Clair actually had previously blogged about being sexually battered! This is all demonstrable, and we don't have to go further into judgment than that needed to read words and look at videos. Now, it would be nice if some people could simply have the basic honesty and decency admit that they thought denigrating, dismissing, and intimidating women was just fantastic, provided that it's done from Watson's ideological perspective. Maybe they could make a sensible case for it, but they don't even seem to try. Instead, we get this insinuation that anybody who thinks that these three women were treated unfairly is a virulent anti-feminist who hates women. Pheeeuuw! Not much better is the belief that some sort of sensible discussion about a real problem can be dragged out of this. The drama has come to dominate. This is like trying to have a discussion about climatology when the chief spokesperson who sets the context is Rush Limbaugh. It does no good to nod sagely whilst ignoring the 500 pound gorilla in the room. If people actually wanted to discuss any real issue, well, maybe they could have a panel with some women, but Paula Kirby would get to speak too. The whole basis of the Watsonian drama is that women like Kirby are dog dirt and deserve to be kicked to the curb. This is not an appeal to listen to women. It is an appeal to ignore and dismiss them. Well said.
	__________________ "Sometimes the kindest thing you can say about God is that he doesn’t exist." -Rabbi Sherwin Wine