Most Influencial Magician?

[Tomtomkent]

Which stage magician or performer would you suggest had the greatest influence on subsequent acts? Heller for the format of his music and magic show after the American civil war? Houdin for making magic respectable? Houdini for mass appeal? Or somebody else I have yet to think of?

[Bob Klase]

I would go with Jean Eugene Robert-Houdin.

[marplots]

Jesus

[Senex]

Mock me for saying this. Go ahead...

The AMAZING kRESKIN!

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by Senex

Mock me for saying this. Go ahead...

The AMAZING kRESKIN!

OK.

I'm mocking you.

[Garrette]

I won't mock, but I will strenuously disagree. If you're going to keep it in the modern era then I'd say Geller has been far more influential than Kreskin, despite the fact that I do not care for Geller at all.

But if I were really to choose one, I'd at least put Houdin on my short list. I'm loathe to name a single number one or best or most influential or whatever in any genre, but I can usually pick a short list. Houdin's on it. I keep wanting to add Houdini, but the phrasing of the OP keeps me from doing so.

[Brown]

It would be easy to say Dai Vernon, so I'll say Dai Vernon.

[Garrette]

Originally Posted by Brown

It would be easy to say Dai Vernon, so I'll say Dai Vernon.

I rejected him because of the way the OP was phrased. The consummate magician's magician who influenced infinite card effect presentations but who didn't, imo, fit the bill of stage performer who influenced subsequent acts.

[Brown]

Originally Posted by Garrette

I rejected him because of the way the OP was phrased. The consummate magician's magician who influenced infinite card effect presentations but who didn't, imo, fit the bill of stage performer who influenced subsequent acts.

I dunno, Dai was not a stage magician in the conventional sense, but he was a performer who had a lot of influence. And he sometimes did stage presentations (cups and balls, linking rings), and many of his moves are now almost industry standard. Incredibly, some of his most memorable contributions seem to be the most obvious, such as the notion that it can be more deceptive to act naturally than to act flamboyantly, and that tricks should be designed so that they can be described in a single sentence by a spectator to someone who never saw the trick.

If we want to talk about stage performers who really made an impact, the Blackstones come to mind. (Trivia: I once rode on the same commercial jet as Harry Blackstone Jr., and I saw his name on his luggage at the baggage area. Harry went to the rear seats of the plane so that he could smoke.)

[Garrette]

Originally Posted by Brown

I dunno, Dai was not a stage magician in the conventional sense, but he was a performer who had a lot of influence. And he sometimes did stage presentations (cups and balls, linking rings), and many of his moves are now almost industry standard. Incredibly, some of his most memorable contributions seem to be the most obvious, such as the notion that it can be more deceptive to act naturally than to act flamboyantly, and that tricks should be designed so that they can be described in a single sentence by a spectator to someone who never saw the trick.

I agree with all that; I suppose it's just a matter of how to interpret the OP.

Originally Posted by Brown

If we want to talk about stage performers who really made an impact, the Blackstones come to mind. (Trivia: I once rode on the same commercial jet as Harry Blackstone Jr., and I saw his name on his luggage at the baggage area. Harry went to the rear seats of the plane so that he could smoke.)

I can agree with Blackstone as being on the short list, but if I were being contrarian (and I feel slightly that way this morning for no real reason) I'd say he was simply reviving the style of Houdin.

The caveat to all this is that I'm not really expert on the history of magic and magicians and I'm writing from memory, so all my thoughts here could be thrown discarded without any real loss of value.

[Brown]

From what little I know of Houdin (or Robert-Houdin), his stage work must have been really exceptional for its time. Although I do not know if any of his peformances has been popularly (and accurately) re-created, I suspect much of his work would look pedestrian by today's standards, because so many performers have followed in his footsteps. It may be the same reaction some people have to seeing "Citizen Kane" for the first time, with people thinking the cinematic devices were trite, not realizing that some of the techniques in that movie had never been done before.

Someone else who had a sort of long-standing effect was Doug Henning. His impact was good in some ways and not so good in others. In his well-received "Magic Show," he popularized stage magic with modern music in colorful but comfortable clothes. He didn't wear a tux or a shirt with loose sleeves. He even did some effects in short sleeves. Non-magical showmanship became a major part of the act. Many of his illusions were canned and required almost no skill. (Although he was not unskilled, Henning was, in the words of James Randi, "a bumbler"; Henning had some spectacular cock-ups, including an embarrassing magical foul-up at his own wedding.) He looked like a hippy or a goof, not like a traditional class act magician. His vocal delivery was terrible and usually his scripted patter was poor, but he could usually hold an audience's interest.

Today, quite a few performers have broken from the traditional magician-in-tuxedo model, but in the 1970s, Mark Wilson and Harry Blackstone and quite a few others were still using it.

[applecorped]

Originally Posted by Tomtomkent

Which stage magician or performer would you suggest had the greatest influence on subsequent acts? Heller for the format of his music and magic show after the American civil war? Houdin for making magic respectable? Houdini for mass appeal? Or somebody else I have yet to think of?

Doug Henning.

[Senex]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

OK.

I'm mocking you.

Sponge balls at noon?

Chess at noon when we meet perhaps

Influential magicians by combat.

[JPK]

Good morning.
I think he has a larger following then the others mentioned.
pretty influentuial. It is often said there are only a few effects and it is the presentation that counts. I am not sure if I agree with that or not. Modern
technology has changed things a bit. It is just a tool and not
a bad thing. With that said, Mascalne(miss spelled) for his brillance
and showmanship. Houdin for his technical brillance
and Houdini for his ability to hold an audiance
captivated. I am guessing they all influenced the
teachers of modern magicians. As always I could be wrong.

[NeilC]

Was kreskin ever good then? I've only seen him in older age and he just keeps doing the same lame card trick.

[Garrette]

Good? Yes; he was very good, though not perhaps in the way many think of it.

I bought this DVD set of Kreskin a couple of months ago. I've only watched a small amount of it so far and I am struck by two things:

Much of what he does is--from a magician's point of view--quite basic, even beginner level (not all of it, mind you).

And all that he does is presented with such enthusiasm that the audience can't fail to be entertained.

Finally, it has brought back the same feelings I remember as a youngster watching his show: I find the mentalist portions intriguing (he does magic as well as mentalism), but I find his style off-putting, sort of the opposite end of the spectrum of Max Maven whose style I also find off-putting but whose immense talent I can still appreciate.

[AdMan]

Whatever you think of his style, I find Max Maven much more talented and certainly way more influential than Kreskin.

[Garrette]

Please note the last 8 words of my previous post.

[AdMan]

Originally Posted by Garrette

Please note the last 8 words of my previous post.

I wasn't responding to you directly--sorry if it came across that way. I was responding more to the claim that Kreskin is particularly talented or influential, by pointing out that Max Maven (whose style I admit is polarizing) is much more talented and has been significantly more influential than Kreskin.

ETA: Regarding Kreskin, I think he is talented as a showman and at selling himself, both of which are positive traits, of course (look at Houdini). Personally, I don't see him very talented as a mentalist or magician.

[Garrette]

Okay. Sorry for misreading. I'm not sure I'd agree on who is more influential, though, especially if we restrict it to the OP which is discussing influence on stage presentation. I think Kreskin would likely win out over Maven there, but I'm not really deadset on it.

[AdMan]

Originally Posted by Garrette

Okay. Sorry for misreading. I'm not sure I'd agree on who is more influential, though, especially if we restrict it to the OP which is discussing influence on stage presentation. I think Kreskin would likely win out over Maven there, but I'm not really deadset on it.

Re-reading the OP, as the question is who had the greatest influence on subsequent acts, for mentalism specifically I would probably go with some early/mid-20th century performers, maybe Annemann or Dunninger, rather than Kreskin or Maven.

[firecoins]

David Copperfield. The most famous magician still appear on the highest grossing entertainers and is the only magician on the list I believe.

James Randi helped influence the skeptical presenter.

Banachek has influenced many mentalist acts.

[firecoins]

Bert Allerton comes to mind in terms of close up magic.

[Senex]

Kreskin made wonder what was possible and what was not. I learned a great deal trying to deconstruct his act.

I have seen most of the magicians mentioned in this thread - I haven't seen Maven or Vernon (did see Cardini). Shamefully, I have never seen Randi.

[Alan]

How about:
Bobo? Hugard and Braue? Corinda?

Walking into a magic shop, I'd say Elmsley.

[Brown]

Let me take a point that has been made and expand upon it.

Many of the performers that professionals deem to be most influential are people to which regular folks respond: "Who??"

Some performers speak with reverence about Dai Vernon and Alex Elmsley and Derek Dingle and Ted Annemann ... and most lay people today respond with "Who?? Who's that??" Everybody's heard of Criss Angel and David Copperfield, and quite a few have heard of Penn & Teller and David Blaine. But many of the principal developers of the effects, the major innovators, the most prominent teachers remain in the shadows as far as the general public is concerned.

[Senex]

Lou Tannen's in NYC. That's the place to meet real magicians. I met Penn Jillette there before there was a Penn and Teller. He is poor at speaking with 13 year olds - just so you know.

[jhunter1163]

Houdin for making magic respectable.

Houdini for showing the way to those who followed him.

And Copperfield for bringing magic into the world's living rooms.

[poblob14]

Originally Posted by jhunter1163

And Copperfield for bringing magic into the world's living rooms.

Doug Henning, mentioned above (whether ironically or not, I'm still not sure) did that two years earlier, and his specials got seven Emmy nominations. He did magic on Broadway. He pioneered the standard (and increasingly ignored) "no camera tricks" style. And yeah, he was a funny-looking goofball who got caught up in TM and had a famous run-in with Randi.

That said, Mark Wilson did a magic series when Doug was a teen and David was a toddler. He's the TV pioneer as far as I'm concerned.

[Senex]

In defense of Kreskin...

...I met after a performance (in the reception line) when I was about 9 years old and he was unbelievably attentive and supportive that I wanted to be able to do what he did. He entertained i bet close to a thousand people that night and everyone was satisfied with the entertainment value. His entire act can be fit into a small briefcase. It's brilliant in its minimalism.

I went to Lou Tannen's and said I wanted to be a mentalist and they sold me an expensive poorly bound softcover book that completely deconstructed Kreskin's act and all other mentalist acts. I was, "hmm, it's all just woo (magic tricks)" and I was fine with that knowledge. However I was pretty young and I think adults that believe in mentalists are pretty darn naive and I don't blame Kreskin for anything.

That guy was a hoot. He had charisma. You had a fun evening watching his performance. He seemed genuinely caught up in the moment and having fun as well. He was/maybeisstill a true professional. Brilliant at what he did/maybestilldoes.

[Garrette]

I have no issues with Kreskin as a performer. While I never met him, I remember watching and loving his shows, but my interpretation of the OP leads me to remain insistent that Kreskin is not one of the most influential.

Without wanting to derail, I'll give a musical example. My eldest son and I were recently discussing which rock era bands should be included on the short list of greats. He included Queen; I was reluctant to agree. Don't get me wrong; I think Queen produced some of the greatest rock songs ever, but I hesitate to call them a great band because my definition includes influence. The Beatles influenced rock. The Rolling Stones influenced rock. Prince influenced rock. But I don't see it with Queen. They were fabulous; no one can replicate their sound; their musical prowess is right there at the top; their lyrical ability is astounding. But who cites Queen as an influence?

Oh, well. I'll finish by reiterating that I don't want to derail; since I am by no means a musical scholar I could well be wrong about Queen. I just wanted to explain by means of example why I don't include Kreskin among the most influential and how that exclusion is not a reflection on his ability.

[Senex]

Originally Posted by Garrette

I have no issues with Kreskin as a performer. While I never met him, I remember watching and loving his shows, but my interpretation of the OP leads me to remain insistent that Kreskin is not one of the most influential.

Of course you are correct. I'm guilty of derailing a Conjurer's Corner thread with substituting "most influential" with "personal influential" (and believing my road to this thread may have not been unique - maybe it was).

Quote:

Without wanting to derail, I'll give a musical example. My eldest son and I were recently discussing which rock era bands should be included on the short list of greats. He included Queen; I was reluctant to agree. Don't get me wrong; I think Queen produced some of the greatest rock songs ever, but I hesitate to call them a great band because my definition includes influence. The Beatles influenced rock. The Rolling Stones influenced rock. Prince influenced rock. But I don't see it with Queen. They were fabulous; no one can replicate their sound; their musical prowess is right there at the top; their lyrical ability is astounding. But who cites Queen as an influence?

Oh, well. I'll finish by reiterating that I don't want to derail; since I am by no means a musical scholar I could well be wrong about Queen. I just wanted to explain by means of example why I don't include Kreskin among the most influential and how that exclusion is not a reflection on his ability.

A fine metaphor. I would like to comment that Queen was big when I was in high school and although I never bought any of their albums I enjoyed their hits on the radio and enthusiastically played one of their anthems on my baritone horn in the pep band at football games. I believed Freddy Mercury was somewhat of a Liberace character and was amazed how some of the high school males I knew who I suspected were homophobic loved Queen. I believe if Queen didn't further rock music they furthered acceptance of flamboyant characters (and that's pretty worthwhile). Their name was Queen for heaven's sake (and not for the chess piece).

[Garrette]

Originally Posted by Senex

Of course you are correct. I'm guilty of derailing a Conjurer's Corner thread with substituting "most influential" with "personal influential" (and believing my road to this thread may have not been unique - maybe it was).

For shame. I, for one, have never ever derailed a thread on the JREF. Ever. At all. Not even once. Honest.

You can trust me; I'm a magician.

Originally Posted by Senex

A fine metaphor. I would like to comment that Queen was big when I was in high school and although I never bought any of their albums I enjoyed their hits on the radio and enthusiastically played one of their anthems on my baritone horn in the pep band at football games. I believed Freddy Mercury was somewhat of a Liberace character and was amazed how some of the high school males I knew who I suspected were homophobic loved Queen. I believe if Queen didn't further rock music they furthered acceptance of flamboyant characters (and that's pretty worthwhile). Their name was Queen for heaven's sake (and not for the chess piece).

I knew long ago what Queen was about and still loved their music. My wife loved their music, too, but didn't know anything about the band itself. About two years ago we wen to a concert by a local tribute band. After the first few songs my wife leaned over to me and--in reference to the man portraying FM--asked "Was he really that gay?"

And in premature defense, she is not in the slightest homophobic, having both close friends and relatives who are gay. She was just surprised at the flamboyance.

My answer: "Actually, I think the guy is underplaying it a bit."

[Senex]

Sadly, I saw Kreskin on the Jimmy Kimmel show Wednesday and he performed the "open a locked safe where his last year's presidential prediction has been stored under guard" effect. It was clumsily performed in a number of ways.

Kreskin physically looked good for someone his age but his timing was bizarrely amateurish. I'm sorry to say he is not as AMAZING as I remembered. You can't judge him today like when he was in his prime.

[StankApe]

as a fan of Magic (tho not a practitioner) I would say that Houdini has to be the biggest influence on kids that became magicians later on, and on the public at large. He's like the Babe Ruth of magic. You could go to the smallest shack in the middle of Arkansas and the ole bumpkin who wandered out would probably not just know the name Houdini, but would probably have a Houdini story (even if it was just secondhand or via a book)

[KDLarsen]

I'll be the first to admit that I don't really follow the "world" of illusionists/magicians/whatever you want to call it (I get annoyed with the whole "Never reveal how it's done"-ethos, as I feel equally fascinated by how it was done as I do by watching the 'raw' performance), but I'd imagine that as far as generating headlines, making it into people's living rooms, and just for sheer scale, someone like David Copperfield must be up there?

I mean, making the Statue of Liberty disappear and walking through the Great Wall of China, that certainly made a major impression on me when I was kid.