More biblical morality

keale · 14th June 2012, 05:02 PM

Psalm 137:9
Happy shall he be, that takes and dashes your little ones against the stones.
American King James Version

Is this moral behavior? If god tells you it is then it must be? Again how can we do the mambo under this one?

In my own personal experience most christians arent even aware of passages like this one but when confronted with it they typically make up all kinds of stuff from god kills the wicked to god works in mysterious ways.

This is the one that really got me thinking about the bible and what was really in it vs. the stuff I was told.

MG1962 · 14th June 2012, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by keale

Psalm 137:9
Happy shall he be, that takes and dashes your little ones against the stones.
American King James Version

Is this moral behavior? If god tells you it is then it must be? Again how can we do the mambo under this one?

In my own personal experience most christians arent even aware of passages like this one but when confronted with it they typically make up all kinds of stuff from god kills the wicked to god works in mysterious ways.

This is the one that really got me thinking about the bible and what was really in it vs. the stuff I was told.

You do realize this a poem dont you?

keale · 14th June 2012, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

You do realize this a poem dont you?

I dont care if its rap music or its a bed time story its sick sick sick. But yes ive been told "but its a poem" rubbish.

devnull · 14th June 2012, 05:27 PM

I think you mean limbo :-)

keale · 14th June 2012, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by devnull

I think you mean limbo :-)

Yes thank you

MG1962 · 14th June 2012, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by keale

I dont care if its rap music or its a bed time story its sick sick sick. But yes ive been told "but its a poem" rubbish.

And one of the most famous of the Psalms. Which you have taken out of context to create outrage. Why don't you post the rest of Psalms 137 and we see what happens

keale · 14th June 2012, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

And one of the most famous of the Psalms. Which you have taken out of context to create outrage. Why don't you post the rest of Psalms 137 and we see what happens

And what?

Psalm 137 (New International Version)

1 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion.
2 There on the poplars
we hung our harps,
3 for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”

4 How can we sing the songs of the Lord
while in a foreign land?
5 If I forget you, Jerusalem,
may my right hand forget its skill.
6 May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
if I do not remember you,
if I do not consider Jerusalem
my highest joy.

7 Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell.
“Tear it down,” they cried,
“tear it down to its foundations!”
8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is the one who repays you
according to what you have done to us.
9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

You couldnt do that yourself? Too lazy?

Lowpro · 14th June 2012, 05:38 PM

It's "remember the Alamo" for Jews.

keale · 14th June 2012, 05:41 PM

Is vengeance A way to go? Smash your enemies kids heads against the stones?

Fixed

Lowpro · 14th June 2012, 05:50 PM

It's "a" way to go

Elypsis44 · 14th June 2012, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

...taken out of context...

I love it.

Context.

ddt · 14th June 2012, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by keale

Is vengeance A way to go? Smash your enemies kids heads against the stones?

Fixed

It's not just vengeance. Smashing your enemies' kids' heads in is Pol Pot territory. It's far worse than what the Babylonians had inflicted on the Jews. And thus it doesn't jive with the usual interpretation of "an eye for an eye", which is that the retribution for an injured eye is not more than an eye.

Of course, when you set such a poem to music you leave out the embarrassing parts:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

MG1962 · 14th June 2012, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by keale

Is vengeance A way to go? Smash your enemies kids heads against the stones?

Fixed

Well the author wants to pay back for what occurred to them, its a lament while the Jews were in exile, not only were they defeated, they were deported from their home land.

More importantly this is not the word of God or claimed to be interpreted as the words of God.

As Lowpro eloquently put it - Its remember the Alamo for Israelites

keale · 14th June 2012, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Well the author wants to pay back for what occurred to them, its a lament while the Jews were in exile, not only were they defeated, they were deported from their home land.

More importantly this is not the word of God or claimed to be interpreted as the words of God.

As Lowpro eloquently put it - Its remember the Alamo for Israelites

Yeah gods chosen people were great guys back in the day. In the modern world we would want them tried for war crimes. Its no wonder these peoples god was a blood thirsty tyrant.

MG1962 · 14th June 2012, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by keale

Yeah gods chosen people were great guys back in the day. In the modern world we would want them tried for war crimes. Its no wonder these peoples god was a blood thirsty tyrant.

Seriously? - The people who destroyed their nation would have more to worry about. You do realize the Jews never got to extract the revenge in that poem. Sorry you feel so outraged that people showed emotion.

Did you write letters to all the newspapers who expressed outrage at the 9/11 attacks?

keale · 14th June 2012, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Seriously? - The people who destroyed their nation would have more to worry about. You do realize the Jews never got to extract the revenge in that poem. Sorry you feel so outraged that people showed emotion.

Did you write letters to all the newspapers who expressed outrage at the 9/11 attacks?

I am outraged they didnt get the chance to smash the babies heads against the stones.

Now we both know this was standard for the time and the bible god has ordered massacres where they were supposed to kill every man woman and child and all the animals but keep the virgins for yourself. They were by todays standards bloodthirsty barbarians.

So um wheres the morals?

MG1962 · 14th June 2012, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by keale

I am outraged they didnt get the chance to smash the babies heads against the stones.

Now we both know this was standard for the time and the bible god has ordered massacres where they were supposed to kill every man woman and child and all the animals but keep the virgins for yourself. They were by todays standards bloodthirsty barbarians.

So um wheres the morals?

So are you arguing they should not have shown any emotion?

Lowpro · 14th June 2012, 07:44 PM

The morals are in the Bible, they just aren't very good morals. Some are extremely bad morals.

My advice, don't argue from morality using the Bible because you'll fail. And if someone does try the argument, correct their ass. If they refuse to correct their ass, make sure they're on an empty stage proselytizing to an empty theater.

GIBHOR's thread is an excellent example.

ddt · 14th June 2012, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Seriously? - The people who destroyed their nation would have more to worry about. You do realize the Jews never got to extract the revenge in that poem. Sorry you feel so outraged that people showed emotion.

The emotion shown goes against the morals that YHWH instituted. What's the excuse for that? I can think of none.

Originally Posted by MG1962

Did you write letters to all the newspapers who expressed outrage at the 9/11 attacks?

False equivocation.

MG1962 · 14th June 2012, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by ddt

The emotion shown goes against the morals that YHWH instituted. What's the excuse for that? I can think of none.

Exodus 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Leviticus 24:20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured.

Deuteronomy 19:21 Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Lowpro · 14th June 2012, 08:09 PM

Well MG1962 you have to admit, it's not quite "eye for an eye" when the cast out people come back and instead of casting out the other guys, they smash their infants against the rocks.

But hey, they didn't actually get to do it and we aren't the thought police. Those jews were just sore losers sort of like how every LSU fan dreams of slashing an Alabama fans' tires.

MG1962 · 14th June 2012, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Lowpro

Well MG1962 you have to admit, it's not quite "eye for an eye" when the cast out people come back and instead of casting out the other guys, they smash their infants against the rocks.

But hey, they didn't actually get to do it and we aren't the thought police. Those jews were just sore losers sort of like how every LSU fan dreams of slashing an Alabama fans' tires.

Well the Babylonians virtually tried to pull a genocide on the Israelites, so I can understand the venom in the line. As it was the Babylonians got pasted themselves, so in the end I guess karma can be a bitch

Lowpro · 14th June 2012, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Well the Babylonians virtually tried to pull a genocide on the Israelites, so I can understand the venom in the line. As it was the Babylonians got pasted themselves, so in the end I guess karma can be a bitch

Zedekiah's fault. I'm sure Nebu was thinking that same karma line.

not_so_new · 14th June 2012, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by Elypsis44

Originally Posted by MG1962

...taken out of context...

I love it.

Context.

LOL

THAT is a classic set up there...

MG1962 · 14th June 2012, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by Lowpro

Zedekiah's fault. I'm sure Nebu was thinking that same karma line.

Sorry I dont get the context

Lowpro · 14th June 2012, 08:31 PM

Oh the reason for the exodus from Babylon was because Babylon and Egypt were warring with each other, and Israel/Judah were both right in the middle. Mostly they were vassals of Babylon but during the war they rioted, changed sides (I don't specifically remember who changed sides first) and Babylon, while not being able to conquer Egypt easily quashed the Israel and Judaic rebellions, pillaging Jerusalem (and probably everything else) and exiling most of the people. He named Zedekiah king, and Zedekiah wouldn't you know decided again to turn coat to the Egyptians. This time Babylon sacked Jerusalem again and effectively exiled the rest of the natives. Because Zedekiah was a dick ruler and a turncoat against a kingdom which shouldn't have to tell you twice.

I should say this is mostly biblical I don't know about truly historical.

MG1962 · 14th June 2012, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by Lowpro

Oh the reason for the exodus from Babylon was because Babylon and Egypt were warring with each other, and Israel/Judah were both right in the middle. Mostly they were vassals of Babylon but during the war they rioted, changed sides (I don't specifically remember who changed sides first) and Babylon, while not being able to conquer Egypt easily quashed the Israel and Judaic rebellions, pillaging Jerusalem (and probably everything else) and exiling most of the people. He named Zedekiah king, and Zedekiah wouldn't you know decided again to turn coat to the Egyptians. This time Babylon sacked Jerusalem again and effectively exiled the rest of the natives. Because Zedekiah was a dick ruler and a turncoat against a kingdom which shouldn't have to tell you twice.

I should say this is mostly biblical I don't know about truly historical.

Ahh okay I understand now

gabeygoat · 14th June 2012, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Exodus 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Leviticus 24:20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured.

Deuteronomy 19:21 Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

and forgive, turn the cheek, etc. doh.

MG1962 · 14th June 2012, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by gabeygoat

and forgive, turn the cheek, etc. doh.

Thats much later

keale · 14th June 2012, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Thats much later

Yeah I think thats the part where god changed his omniscient mind so that he could send himself so that he could commit suicide to sacrifice himself to save us all from himself.

Craig B · 14th June 2012, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Well the Babylonians virtually tried to pull a genocide on the Israelites, so I can understand the venom in the line. As it was the Babylonians got pasted themselves, so in the end I guess karma can be a bitch

They exiled the Israelites, or at least the significant social classes, to Babylon. The Psalmist (who can't be David, who died long before the Exile) accuses the Babylonians of taking the Israelites away from their home, and in retribution desires the massacre of Babylonian children.

Beautiful songs have been made of this psalm, and when I hear them, I wonder, how will they handle the last verse? But they don't try.

By the way, are you saying that Christians don't believe the Book of Psalms to be the "word of God"? What other Biblical books do they exclude from this category?

"Karma can be a bitch". Divine retribution is another bitch, it seems.

Multivac · 15th June 2012, 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by keale

And what?

Psalm 137 (New International Version)

1 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion.
2 There on the poplars
we hung our harps,
3 for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”

4 How can we sing the songs of the Lord
while in a foreign land?
5 If I forget you, Jerusalem,
may my right hand forget its skill.
6 May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
if I do not remember you,
if I do not consider Jerusalem
my highest joy.

7 Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell.
“Tear it down,” they cried,
“tear it down to its foundations!”
8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is the one who repays you
according to what you have done to us.
9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

You couldnt do that yourself? Too lazy?

Ok, so now we have the full context, it still sounds like it was written by a petulant three year old.

Multivac · 15th June 2012, 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Well the author wants to pay back for what occurred to them, its a lament while the Jews were in exile, not only were they defeated, they were deported from their home land.

More importantly this is not the word of God or claimed to be interpreted as the words of God.

As Lowpro eloquently put it - Its remember the Alamo for Israelites

It may not be the word of god, but it is still pretty horrendous. Gods chosen people wanting to smash the heads of infants against rocks isn't exactly turning the other cheek, is it?

Multivac · 15th June 2012, 01:35 AM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Exodus 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Leviticus 24:20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured.

Deuteronomy 19:21 Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Surely an advanced entity like a god, would be more compasionate and less of a psychopath.

Craig B · 15th June 2012, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by Multivac

Surely an advanced entity like a god, would be more compasionate and less of a psychopath.

To be fair, Lev 24 is a step forward. For an injury you may exact no more in revenge or reparation than the amount of damage you received. This would have been to stop endless feuding. And in practice compensation would normally be required of the miscreant, rather than mutilation being inflicted. But the other passages you cite do indeed seem vindictive in tone.

Susheel · 15th June 2012, 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by MG1962

...More importantly this is not the word of God or claimed to be interpreted as the words of God...

And you believe that the "bleevers" will not deign to use this to justify actions of this sort "...because it says so in the Bible?"

Fundamentalists of every stripe primarily use religious texts "out of context" so that they can make it mean anything they want it to mean. I see no problem with the OP.

sphenisc · 15th June 2012, 02:32 AM

Originally Posted by Susheel

Fundamentalists of every stripe primarily use religious texts "out of context" so that they can make it mean anything they want it to mean. I see no problem with the OP.

Strange. I took the first part to mean you had.

Susheel · 15th June 2012, 02:50 AM

Nope, my post was in counter to MG1962s.

ddt · 15th June 2012, 03:37 AM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Exodus 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Leviticus 24:20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured.

Deuteronomy 19:21 Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

I already went over that in post #12. Could you please have the courtesy to actually read posts?

As to the second siege of Jerusalem (in 587BC): is there corroborating evidence that this took place and that Nebu razed the city to the ground?

HansMustermann · 15th June 2012, 03:50 AM

Originally Posted by Craig B

To be fair, Lev 24 is a step forward. For an injury you may exact no more in revenge or reparation than the amount of damage you received. This would have been to stop endless feuding. And in practice compensation would normally be required of the miscreant, rather than mutilation being inflicted. But the other passages you cite do indeed seem vindictive in tone.

Sort of. These newfangled Pharisees, after having been dragged kicking and screaming through the civilization of a first world power like Babylon, tended to be all for paying reparations and purification rituals and whatnot. As far as I know, though, most of the verses in the OT prescribing cruel punishments or separation from the community or massacring whole towns, were in all likelihood originally meant to be taken literally, and were still taken literally by the priestly caste, i.e., the Sadducees.

14th June 2012, 05:02 PM	#1
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813	More biblical morality Psalm 137:9 Happy shall he be, that takes and dashes your little ones against the stones. American King James Version Is this moral behavior? If god tells you it is then it must be? Again how can we do the mambo under this one? In my own personal experience most christians arent even aware of passages like this one but when confronted with it they typically make up all kinds of stuff from god kills the wicked to god works in mysterious ways. This is the one that really got me thinking about the bible and what was really in it vs. the stuff I was told.
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813

14th June 2012, 05:26 PM	#3
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813	Originally Posted by MG1962 You do realize this a poem dont you? I dont care if its rap music or its a bed time story its sick sick sick. But yes ive been told "but its a poem" rubbish.
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813

14th June 2012, 05:27 PM	#4
devnull Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 4,532	I think you mean limbo :-)
	__________________ no, i don't think i need to read naturalistic literature more accurately, to be convinced its true. - Gibhor

14th June 2012, 05:29 PM	#5
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813	Originally Posted by devnull I think you mean limbo :-) Yes thank you
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813

14th June 2012, 05:35 PM	#7
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813	Originally Posted by MG1962 And one of the most famous of the Psalms. Which you have taken out of context to create outrage. Why don't you post the rest of Psalms 137 and we see what happens And what? Psalm 137 (New International Version) 1 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept when we remembered Zion. 2 There on the poplars we hung our harps, 3 for there our captors asked us for songs, our tormentors demanded songs of joy; they said, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!” 4 How can we sing the songs of the Lord while in a foreign land? 5 If I forget you, Jerusalem, may my right hand forget its skill. 6 May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth if I do not remember you, if I do not consider Jerusalem my highest joy. 7 Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did on the day Jerusalem fell. “Tear it down,” they cried, “tear it down to its foundations!” 8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us. 9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks. You couldnt do that yourself? Too lazy?
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813

14th June 2012, 05:20 PM	#2
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by keale Psalm 137:9 Happy shall he be, that takes and dashes your little ones against the stones. American King James Version Is this moral behavior? If god tells you it is then it must be? Again how can we do the mambo under this one? In my own personal experience most christians arent even aware of passages like this one but when confronted with it they typically make up all kinds of stuff from god kills the wicked to god works in mysterious ways. This is the one that really got me thinking about the bible and what was really in it vs. the stuff I was told. You do realize this a poem dont you?

14th June 2012, 05:31 PM	#6
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by keale I dont care if its rap music or its a bed time story its sick sick sick. But yes ive been told "but its a poem" rubbish. And one of the most famous of the Psalms. Which you have taken out of context to create outrage. Why don't you post the rest of Psalms 137 and we see what happens

14th June 2012, 05:38 PM	#8
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,519	It's "remember the Alamo" for Jews.
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers

14th June 2012, 05:41 PM	#9
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813	Is vengeance A way to go? Smash your enemies kids heads against the stones? Fixed
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813	Last edited by keale; 14th June 2012 at 05:54 PM.

14th June 2012, 05:50 PM	#10
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,519	It's "a" way to go
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers

14th June 2012, 06:39 PM	#11
Elypsis44 Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 3,394	Originally Posted by MG1962 ...taken out of context... I love it. Context.
Elypsis44 Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 3,394

14th June 2012, 06:42 PM	#13
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by keale Is vengeance A way to go? Smash your enemies kids heads against the stones? Fixed Well the author wants to pay back for what occurred to them, its a lament while the Jews were in exile, not only were they defeated, they were deported from their home land. More importantly this is not the word of God or claimed to be interpreted as the words of God. As Lowpro eloquently put it - Its remember the Alamo for Israelites

14th June 2012, 07:12 PM	#14
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813	Originally Posted by MG1962 Well the author wants to pay back for what occurred to them, its a lament while the Jews were in exile, not only were they defeated, they were deported from their home land. More importantly this is not the word of God or claimed to be interpreted as the words of God. As Lowpro eloquently put it - Its remember the Alamo for Israelites Yeah gods chosen people were great guys back in the day. In the modern world we would want them tried for war crimes. Its no wonder these peoples god was a blood thirsty tyrant.
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813

14th June 2012, 07:16 PM	#15
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by keale Yeah gods chosen people were great guys back in the day. In the modern world we would want them tried for war crimes. Its no wonder these peoples god was a blood thirsty tyrant. Seriously? - The people who destroyed their nation would have more to worry about. You do realize the Jews never got to extract the revenge in that poem. Sorry you feel so outraged that people showed emotion. Did you write letters to all the newspapers who expressed outrage at the 9/11 attacks?

14th June 2012, 07:24 PM	#16
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813	Originally Posted by MG1962 Seriously? - The people who destroyed their nation would have more to worry about. You do realize the Jews never got to extract the revenge in that poem. Sorry you feel so outraged that people showed emotion. Did you write letters to all the newspapers who expressed outrage at the 9/11 attacks? I am outraged they didnt get the chance to smash the babies heads against the stones. Now we both know this was standard for the time and the bible god has ordered massacres where they were supposed to kill every man woman and child and all the animals but keep the virgins for yourself. They were by todays standards bloodthirsty barbarians. So um wheres the morals?
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813

14th June 2012, 07:28 PM	#17
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by keale I am outraged they didnt get the chance to smash the babies heads against the stones. Now we both know this was standard for the time and the bible god has ordered massacres where they were supposed to kill every man woman and child and all the animals but keep the virgins for yourself. They were by todays standards bloodthirsty barbarians. So um wheres the morals? So are you arguing they should not have shown any emotion?

14th June 2012, 07:44 PM	#18
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,519	The morals are in the Bible, they just aren't very good morals. Some are extremely bad morals. My advice, don't argue from morality using the Bible because you'll fail. And if someone does try the argument, correct their ass. If they refuse to correct their ass, make sure they're on an empty stage proselytizing to an empty theater. GIBHOR's thread is an excellent example.
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers

14th June 2012, 07:51 PM	#19
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,317	Originally Posted by MG1962 Seriously? - The people who destroyed their nation would have more to worry about. You do realize the Jews never got to extract the revenge in that poem. Sorry you feel so outraged that people showed emotion. The emotion shown goes against the morals that YHWH instituted. What's the excuse for that? I can think of none. Originally Posted by MG1962 Did you write letters to all the newspapers who expressed outrage at the 9/11 attacks? False equivocation.
	__________________ Proud member of the Solipsistic Autosycophant's Group

14th June 2012, 08:01 PM	#20
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by ddt The emotion shown goes against the morals that YHWH instituted. What's the excuse for that? I can think of none. Exodus 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Leviticus 24:20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured. Deuteronomy 19:21 Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

14th June 2012, 08:09 PM	#21
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,519	Well MG1962 you have to admit, it's not quite "eye for an eye" when the cast out people come back and instead of casting out the other guys, they smash their infants against the rocks. But hey, they didn't actually get to do it and we aren't the thought police. Those jews were just sore losers sort of like how every LSU fan dreams of slashing an Alabama fans' tires.
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers

14th June 2012, 08:13 PM	#22
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by Lowpro Well MG1962 you have to admit, it's not quite "eye for an eye" when the cast out people come back and instead of casting out the other guys, they smash their infants against the rocks. But hey, they didn't actually get to do it and we aren't the thought police. Those jews were just sore losers sort of like how every LSU fan dreams of slashing an Alabama fans' tires. Well the Babylonians virtually tried to pull a genocide on the Israelites, so I can understand the venom in the line. As it was the Babylonians got pasted themselves, so in the end I guess karma can be a bitch

14th June 2012, 08:15 PM	#23
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,519	Originally Posted by MG1962 Well the Babylonians virtually tried to pull a genocide on the Israelites, so I can understand the venom in the line. As it was the Babylonians got pasted themselves, so in the end I guess karma can be a bitch Zedekiah's fault. I'm sure Nebu was thinking that same karma line.
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers Last edited by Lowpro; 14th June 2012 at 08:16 PM.

14th June 2012, 08:17 PM	#24
not_so_new Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,544	Originally Posted by Elypsis44 Originally Posted by MG1962 ...taken out of context... I love it. Context. LOL THAT is a classic set up there...

14th June 2012, 08:24 PM	#25
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by Lowpro Zedekiah's fault. I'm sure Nebu was thinking that same karma line. Sorry I dont get the context

14th June 2012, 08:31 PM	#26
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,519	Oh the reason for the exodus from Babylon was because Babylon and Egypt were warring with each other, and Israel/Judah were both right in the middle. Mostly they were vassals of Babylon but during the war they rioted, changed sides (I don't specifically remember who changed sides first) and Babylon, while not being able to conquer Egypt easily quashed the Israel and Judaic rebellions, pillaging Jerusalem (and probably everything else) and exiling most of the people. He named Zedekiah king, and Zedekiah wouldn't you know decided again to turn coat to the Egyptians. This time Babylon sacked Jerusalem again and effectively exiled the rest of the natives. Because Zedekiah was a dick ruler and a turncoat against a kingdom which shouldn't have to tell you twice. I should say this is mostly biblical I don't know about truly historical.
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers Last edited by Lowpro; 14th June 2012 at 08:37 PM.

14th June 2012, 09:08 PM	#27
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by Lowpro Oh the reason for the exodus from Babylon was because Babylon and Egypt were warring with each other, and Israel/Judah were both right in the middle. Mostly they were vassals of Babylon but during the war they rioted, changed sides (I don't specifically remember who changed sides first) and Babylon, while not being able to conquer Egypt easily quashed the Israel and Judaic rebellions, pillaging Jerusalem (and probably everything else) and exiling most of the people. He named Zedekiah king, and Zedekiah wouldn't you know decided again to turn coat to the Egyptians. This time Babylon sacked Jerusalem again and effectively exiled the rest of the natives. Because Zedekiah was a dick ruler and a turncoat against a kingdom which shouldn't have to tell you twice. I should say this is mostly biblical I don't know about truly historical. Ahh okay I understand now

14th June 2012, 09:15 PM	#28
gabeygoat Muse Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hard Corvallis, Oregon Posts: 667	Originally Posted by MG1962 Exodus 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Leviticus 24:20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured. Deuteronomy 19:21 Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. and forgive, turn the cheek, etc. doh.

14th June 2012, 09:17 PM	#29
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by gabeygoat and forgive, turn the cheek, etc. doh. Thats much later

14th June 2012, 09:31 PM	#30
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813	Originally Posted by MG1962 Thats much later Yeah I think thats the part where god changed his omniscient mind so that he could send himself so that he could commit suicide to sacrifice himself to save us all from himself.
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813

14th June 2012, 11:01 PM	#31
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,883	Originally Posted by MG1962 Well the Babylonians virtually tried to pull a genocide on the Israelites, so I can understand the venom in the line. As it was the Babylonians got pasted themselves, so in the end I guess karma can be a bitch They exiled the Israelites, or at least the significant social classes, to Babylon. The Psalmist (who can't be David, who died long before the Exile) accuses the Babylonians of taking the Israelites away from their home, and in retribution desires the massacre of Babylonian children. Beautiful songs have been made of this psalm, and when I hear them, I wonder, how will they handle the last verse? But they don't try. By the way, are you saying that Christians don't believe the Book of Psalms to be the "word of God"? What other Biblical books do they exclude from this category? "Karma can be a bitch". Divine retribution is another bitch, it seems.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,883

15th June 2012, 01:28 AM	#32
Multivac Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,931	Originally Posted by keale And what? Psalm 137 (New International Version) 1 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept when we remembered Zion. 2 There on the poplars we hung our harps, 3 for there our captors asked us for songs, our tormentors demanded songs of joy; they said, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!” 4 How can we sing the songs of the Lord while in a foreign land? 5 If I forget you, Jerusalem, may my right hand forget its skill. 6 May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth if I do not remember you, if I do not consider Jerusalem my highest joy. 7 Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did on the day Jerusalem fell. “Tear it down,” they cried, “tear it down to its foundations!” 8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us. 9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks. You couldnt do that yourself? Too lazy? Ok, so now we have the full context, it still sounds like it was written by a petulant three year old.

15th June 2012, 01:30 AM	#33
Multivac Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,931	Originally Posted by MG1962 Well the author wants to pay back for what occurred to them, its a lament while the Jews were in exile, not only were they defeated, they were deported from their home land. More importantly this is not the word of God or claimed to be interpreted as the words of God. As Lowpro eloquently put it - Its remember the Alamo for Israelites It may not be the word of god, but it is still pretty horrendous. Gods chosen people wanting to smash the heads of infants against rocks isn't exactly turning the other cheek, is it?
	Last edited by Multivac; 15th June 2012 at 01:33 AM.

15th June 2012, 01:35 AM	#34
Multivac Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,931	Originally Posted by MG1962 Exodus 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Leviticus 24:20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured. Deuteronomy 19:21 Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. Surely an advanced entity like a god, would be more compasionate and less of a psychopath.

15th June 2012, 01:55 AM	#35
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,883	Originally Posted by Multivac Surely an advanced entity like a god, would be more compasionate and less of a psychopath. To be fair, Lev 24 is a step forward. For an injury you may exact no more in revenge or reparation than the amount of damage you received. This would have been to stop endless feuding. And in practice compensation would normally be required of the miscreant, rather than mutilation being inflicted. But the other passages you cite do indeed seem vindictive in tone.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,883	Last edited by Craig B; 15th June 2012 at 02:05 AM. Reason: Spelling.

15th June 2012, 02:21 AM	#36
Susheel Muse Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 525	Originally Posted by MG1962 ...More importantly this is not the word of God or claimed to be interpreted as the words of God... And you believe that the "bleevers" will not deign to use this to justify actions of this sort "...because it says so in the Bible?" Fundamentalists of every stripe primarily use religious texts "out of context" so that they can make it mean anything they want it to mean. I see no problem with the OP.
Susheel Muse Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 525	__________________ I've got to get to a library...fast Robert Langdon