Best evidence against.....

not_so_new · 14th June 2012, 07:02 PM

So I was thinking about this the other day and I would love to hear some other opinions.

In your view, what one piece of the bible (be it passage, gospel, book, whatever) best illustrates why you feel it isn't the word of a god?

I have my opinion but I am going to save that for later, I would like to hear what others would have to say on it first. Oh and, sorry if this specific topic has been covered before, I didn't see a thread on this subject when I searched.

DallasDad · 14th June 2012, 07:11 PM

There's no content that indicates a divine origin -- that is, it's all stuff that the humans who wrote it would have known/thought/believed, and not significantly different from other myths.

Loss Leader · 14th June 2012, 07:34 PM

The flood.

I Ratant · 14th June 2012, 07:44 PM

The Flood is the easiest thing to disprove.

Lowpro · 14th June 2012, 07:47 PM

I would think it's obvious that the Bible isn't the word of God because it's not written by God and instead the first few books are complete fantasy origin stories, the middle parts are justifications for a cult, and the latter part is a schism of the first cult (twice if you don't consider Paul to be a good representation of Jesus)

not_so_new · 14th June 2012, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Loss Leader

The flood.

I used to think this as well.

Had a good friend that was a pretty heavy duty Christian (we talked religion a lot, it was always a pretty respectable and interesting conversation).

I mentioned the flood as an example of the absurdity of the bible and his rationalization was that "the Earth" to humans of the time would have been 10 or 15 square miles of land which made up their area. A "flood covering the whole Earth" could have been a localize disaster such as a tsunami. That would also make the whole ark thing much more plausible, at least in his eyes.

I think that is a pretty weak argument, and ignores some other parts of that story, but it is sort of, maybe, something in the zip code of, possible. What it did for me was knock down the flood as the single most damning evidence of the bible. I still think it is complete and utter BS but for me there are stronger arguments.

Lowpro · 14th June 2012, 07:51 PM

Like the Tower of Babel? ( I swear that story never gets the attention it deserves)

Gord_in_Toronto · 14th June 2012, 07:52 PM

If there is a God and he wrote the Bible (or at least supervised its authorship) then He did such a poor job of making it coherent and comprehensible that I would fear for His sanity.

not_so_new · 14th June 2012, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Lowpro

I would think it's obvious that the Bible isn't the word of God because it's not written by God and instead the first few books are complete fantasy origin stories, the middle parts are justifications for a cult, and the latter part is a schism of the first cult (twice if you don't consider Paul to be a good representation of Jesus)

I agree with all the above.... but what ONE specific thing is the most compelling piece that you would point to?

If you were in an elevator and you had to give an "elevator pitch" to someone who asks you "exactly what in the bible do you disagree with" what would you say before you had to get off at your floor?

not_so_new · 14th June 2012, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by Lowpro

Like the Tower of Babel? ( I swear that story never gets the attention it deserves)

That is interesting, that is always high on my list.

It is a classic example of bronze age (or earlier) people trying very hard to explain the world they lived in without having the ability to really learn the truth.

I actually LOVE the Tower of Babel story, NOT because it is the word of some sky god. I love it because it is so completely and totally human. It explains our thought process at a point frozen in history and our continuing need to have answers to explain the world around us all at the same time.

MG1962 · 14th June 2012, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by Lowpro

Like the Tower of Babel? ( I swear that story never gets the attention it deserves)

Its a strange piece of writing - You can almost see the scene.

"Daddy why doesn't everyone speak the same language?"

"Well son it is like this.........."

Lowpro · 14th June 2012, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by not_so_new

I agree with all the above.... but what ONE specific thing is the most compelling piece that you would point to?

If you were in an elevator and you had to give an "elevator pitch" to someone who asks you "exactly what in the bible do you disagree with" what would you say before you had to get off at your floor?

I'd ask them why they are so willing to tell me this story at the risk of meeting Yama and being cast into Naraka.

It's like the old story of the guy who asks you "What's it like to be an atheist" and you ask him "What's it like to be a Buddhist" and before he can tell you he's not one, you say "It's like that"

not_so_new · 14th June 2012, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Its a strange piece of writing - You can almost see the scene.

"Daddy why doesn't everyone speak the same language?"

"Well son it is like this.........."

Yep, one of my favorite parts of the bible actually, for exactly that reason (see my post above).

Krikkiter · 14th June 2012, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by not_so_new

I agree with all the above.... but what ONE specific thing is the most compelling piece that you would point to?

If you were in an elevator and you had to give an "elevator pitch" to someone who asks you "exactly what in the bible do you disagree with" what would you say before you had to get off at your floor?

This might not be exactly on topic but...

I had some Jehovah's Witness' come to my door the other day and the polite young girl (with her older, more experienced[?] mentor listening intently) asked why I didn't believe. My reply was that both the New and Old Testaments were so obviously made up of fictional stories that one would have to suspend all rational thought in order to make sense of any of it.

A very general objection I know but the poor girl then went on to say that she believed in a literal version of both books and that there was verifiable evidence of Jesus' existence and miracle working...

So, in an even more general sense (apologies!), the fact that the religious need to use extremely subjective interpretation and semantic contortion to justify anything that's written in either book is reason enough for me not to believe.

Dinwar · 14th June 2012, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by not_so_new

So I was thinking about this the other day and I would love to hear some other opinions.

In your view, what one piece of the bible (be it passage, gospel, book, whatever) best illustrates why you feel it isn't the word of a god?

Wrong question. The issue isn't disproving that the Bible is the word of God. First, at least an iota of evidence that it IS the word of God must be presented. It hasn't been; therefore we can assume that the book is, just like every other book in the history of humanity, a work of human minds.

"It's not the word of God" is nothing more than the null hypothesis. Until that hypothesis is disproven, there's nothing more to say.

Quote:

If you were in an elevator and you had to give an "elevator pitch" to someone who asks you "exactly what in the bible do you disagree with" what would you say before you had to get off at your floor?

"The archaeology. If you'd like to discuss this further, I have the references at my desk, and sit by an expert. You'll have to buy the beer, though."

Beelzebuddy · 14th June 2012, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by not_so_new

I agree with all the above.... but what ONE specific thing is the most compelling piece that you would point to?

Lot's daughters and the fabulous technicolor rape mob, hands down:

Originally Posted by Genesis

19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

It's the story I lead all my "why I'm not a Christian anymore" discussions with. It's got everything - the morality espoused here is so alien no one participating honestly in today's society can accept it, a literal reading of the Bible leaves it undeniable, while a nonliteral reading is a clear case of selective belief, since the same story is presented again in Judges.

Skeptic Ginger · 14th June 2012, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by DallasDad

There's no content that indicates a divine origin -- that is, it's all stuff that the humans who wrote it would have known/thought/believed, and not significantly different from other myths.

This^

It makes no sense a god would command its followers to keep people with lesions outside the town and yet not make a single mention of the importance of hand washing. Why ban eating pork and not mention the importance of cooking meat and for that matter, boiling drinking water?

The Bible claims the Moon was the light in the night sky when it was actually reflected light.

The Bible is chock full of stuff you'd expect to see if it were written by humans and the Bible contains not one thing that suggests supernatural knowledge.

not_so_new · 14th June 2012, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

Lot's daughters and the fabulous technicolor rape mob, hands down:

It's the story I lead all my "why I'm not a Christian anymore" discussions with. It's got everything - the morality espoused here is so alien no one participating honestly in today's society can accept it, a literal reading of the Bible leaves it undeniable, while a nonliteral reading is a clear case of selective belief, since the same story is presented again in Judges.

See, that's what I am talking about....

On the whole I completely agree with the more general responses above. The whole idea that someone would actually believe in something so absurd as the bible is amazing to me.

But if pressed by a believer to point out a specific example that explains why I feel it is absurd, this is the sort of thing I would point to (but not exactly the thing I would point to in this instance).

JJM 777 · 14th June 2012, 08:59 PM

The Law of Moses, as a whole.

not_so_new · 14th June 2012, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by Krikkiter

This might not be exactly on topic but...

I had some Jehovah's Witness' come to my door the other day and the polite young girl (with her older, more experienced[?] mentor listening intently) asked why I didn't believe. My reply was that both the New and Old Testaments were so obviously made up of fictional stories that one would have to suspend all rational thought in order to make sense of any of it.

A very general objection I know but the poor girl then went on to say that she believed in a literal version of both books and that there was verifiable evidence of Jesus' existence and miracle working...

So, in an even more general sense (apologies!), the fact that the religious need to use extremely subjective interpretation and semantic contortion to justify anything that's written in either book is reason enough for me not to believe.

Yep, that is the situation I am talking about. To someone who believes in the literal version of the bible, saying to them that I don't believe doesn't really make any point on either side.

You believe, I don't, end of story. That's usually how I tend to leave these conversations.

But what I often want to say is, "you mean you believe X in the bible?" and see what they have to say when they are presented with the absurdity of X. I know they are either going to say "it's out of context" or come up with some other rationalization which is why I usually let it drop before it ever gets to that point.

I am just interested in hearing what that "X" would be from others. It's more of a day dreaming / wondering what other people think question more than a classical study of the fundamental flaws of religion in general.

not_so_new · 14th June 2012, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

The Law of Moses, as a whole.

Interesting... this is exactly why I started the thread. I am surprised at how many Old Testament answers are here.

It seems that a good deal of modern Christians almost completely ignore the Old Testament or they rationalize it away with some "new covenant" make believe.

When I was a Christian (as a boy) I didn't really believe in the Old Testament, being a "Christian" was about Jesus and the New Testament. The Old Testament was almost completely ignored in my CCD classes, it wasn't talked about much during mass, it was sort of brushed under the carpet by most believers.

It's interesting to me that so many non believers seem to focus on it... of course it's also interesting (and sad) to me that believers have selective belief in their divine word of god magic book.

Marquis de Carabas · 14th June 2012, 09:19 PM

Chapter 8 of the Gospel of John does it for me. No god I want to have anything to do with would pass up a chance to get stoned with a hooker.

KevinCanada · 14th June 2012, 09:23 PM

I think the Bible is a fraud as it does not give us one single shred of intelligible proof. Show me a piece of logic in the bible that we can confirm to be true today, that could not be confirmed at the time of writing.

i say it is fake due to what it does not tell us but could of very easily told us.

Krikkiter · 14th June 2012, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by not_so_new

Yep, that is the situation I am talking about. To someone who believes in the literal version of the bible, saying to them that I don't believe doesn't really make any point on either side.

You believe, I don't, end of story. That's usually how I tend to leave these conversations.

But what I often want to say is, "you mean you believe X in the bible?" and see what they have to say when they are presented with the absurdity of X. I know they are either going to say "it's out of context" or come up with some other rationalization which is why I usually let it drop before it ever gets to that point.

I am just interested in hearing what that "X" would be from others. It's more of a day dreaming / wondering what other people think question more than a classical study of the fundamental flaws of religion in general.

Yeah, sorry for the generalisation.

In which case I'm gonna throw in the resurrection but specifically the zombie apocalypse part:

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." (KJV)

Braaaaaaainz!

ETA: Jonah too.

maxpower1227 · 14th June 2012, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by not_so_new

I used to think this as well.

Had a good friend that was a pretty heavy duty Christian (we talked religion a lot, it was always a pretty respectable and interesting conversation).

I mentioned the flood as an example of the absurdity of the bible and his rationalization was that "the Earth" to humans of the time would have been 10 or 15 square miles of land which made up their area. A "flood covering the whole Earth" could have been a localize disaster such as a tsunami. That would also make the whole ark thing much more plausible, at least in his eyes.

I think that is a pretty weak argument, and ignores some other parts of that story, but it is sort of, maybe, something in the zip code of, possible. What it did for me was knock down the flood as the single most damning evidence of the bible. I still think it is complete and utter BS but for me there are stronger arguments.

His rationalization does nothing to salvage the flood myth, since there would be no need for Noah to gather two of every animal, as a tsunami would not cause any extinctions, except possibly among the stupidest of species.

Also I'm fairly certain that no tsunamis last for five months, or involve nonstop rain for 6 weeks. They also can't be predicted far enough in advance to build a boat to ride them out... there are just way too many holes.

What is possible is that a devastating tsunami hit some ancient civilizations and the story passed down through generations was embellished until it became a fantastical myth.

MG1962 · 14th June 2012, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by maxpower1227

What is possible is that a devastating tsunami hit some ancient civilizations and the story passed down through generations was embellished until it became a fantastical myth.

I have always been a fan of the Black Sea flood being the origins of the story

Krikkiter · 14th June 2012, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

I have always been a fan of the Black Sea flood being the origins of the story

Or the flooding of the Euphrates.

Lowpro · 14th June 2012, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

I have always been a fan of the Black Sea flood being the origins of the story

The origins may not even be for the Black Sea. Myths generally are concerned with local areas; as I said before Japan has myths surrounding earthquakes and deified local fauna.

With as many civilizations that have come and gone within Mesopotamia it's not surprising that there's a flood myth and what would be more interesting is which iteration may have started the trend of flood myths on the whole.

It's all just nature worship.

SezMe · 14th June 2012, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Loss Leader

The flood.

Originally Posted by not_so_new

I mentioned the flood as an example of the absurdity of the bible and his rationalization was that "the Earth" to humans of the time would have been 10 or 15 square miles of land which made up their area. A "flood covering the whole Earth" could have been a localize disaster such as a tsunami. That would also make the whole ark thing much more plausible, at least in his eyes.

Originally Posted by Lowpro

Like the Tower of Babel? ( I swear that story never gets the attention it deserves)

You can't have both. If the flood only covered 10-15 mi² then there could not be so many languages that called for a tower. OTOH, if the world is so large as to support multiple languages, then a local tsunami doesn't cut the mustard.

Aepervius · 14th June 2012, 10:38 PM

I hesitate between the flood, genesis, or the apocalypse/revelation shroom induced nightmare.

ddt · 15th June 2012, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by not_so_new

So I was thinking about this the other day and I would love to hear some other opinions.

In your view, what one piece of the bible (be it passage, gospel, book, whatever) best illustrates why you feel it isn't the word of a god?

For originality, I'd go with the Plagues of Egypt. At various stages, Pharaoh is willing to let the Israelites go, but each time, YHWH hardens his heart and so Pharaoh doesn't. YHWH isn't content with letting the Israelites go without further ado, he isn't content with one lesson, no, it has to be ten plagues and on top of that the destruction of Pharaoh's army.

It's not an illustration it isn't the word of god, but it is an illustration that YHWH is a sadistic, cruel, bloodthirsty monster. Do you want to believe in such a god?

Craig B · 15th June 2012, 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas

Chapter 8 of the Gospel of John does it for me. No god I want to have anything to do with would pass up a chance to get stoned with a hooker.

Leaving aside the hooker, for the moment ... Can an omniscient eternal unchanging Being get stoned? Have philosophers addressed this question?

godless dave · 15th June 2012, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by not_so_new

I used to think this as well.

Had a good friend that was a pretty heavy duty Christian (we talked religion a lot, it was always a pretty respectable and interesting conversation).

I mentioned the flood as an example of the absurdity of the bible and his rationalization was that "the Earth" to humans of the time would have been 10 or 15 square miles of land which made up their area. A "flood covering the whole Earth" could have been a localize disaster such as a tsunami. That would also make the whole ark thing much more plausible, at least in his eyes.

Wouldn't that be an argument that the Bible was written by humans and is not the word of God?

It's not the contents of the Bible that tells me it's not the word of God. What tells me it's not the word of God is that all other written works I know of were written by people. I don't see any reason to think the Bible wasn't also written by people.

Dcdrac · 15th June 2012, 06:20 AM

*NEWSFLASH*

Dateline London 15 June 2012

Missing page from first ever bible found astounding discovery

It reads

All persons and events mentioned in this novel are ficitional and are not intended to portray real events nor living people past or present.......

The Archbishop of Canterbury issued a statement saying this is obviously a medieval hoax which carbon dating will no doubt prove....

*ENDFLASH*

SumDood · 15th June 2012, 06:22 AM

The concept of Hell solidifies it for me. And the fact that God actually came up with the concept in the first place. "Hmmmm, lets see...What sort of punishment can i bestow on people who don't follow my rules? Reincarnate them and give them a second chance? Show them the error of their ways and give them limited access in Heaven? No, I've got it! Lets torture them for all eternity!" To me, Hell is a human concept devised to scare people in to behaving.

And then sometimes one can go to hell on a technicality. The worse sinner in the world can be crossing the street, see a bus about to hit them, think 'REPENT' and get into heaven. Another sinner in the same situation could think 'I'm about to die, I'm supposed to do something, what is it?" and BAM they die. And in the afterlife he realizes "Oh yeah, REPENT!" and is then told "You can't repent after you die, silly. You should have thought of that one second earlier. Its off to Hell with you!"

Also, the most savage, murdering, baby raping warlord in the heart of Africa who has never heard about Christianity gets into heaven while the most charitable, altruistic humanitarian who works his entire life for the betterment of humanity, but just happens to be Jewish, goes to hell.

Yeah, that's a loving god for you.

DC · 15th June 2012, 06:24 AM

Genesis.
Its the most intersting part wich attempts to answer one of the most imporant question.
and its completely wrong.

Dinwar · 15th June 2012, 07:46 AM

How about the Council of Nicea? That's where the modern Christian version of the Bible really took shape, after all. To argue that the Bible is the infalible word of the One True God, you have to believe that the One True God works by committee!

The errors in the New Testiment are a good place to go as well. There was no mass slaughter of boys at the time Jesus was supposedly born. There was no demand that everyone return to the city of their ancestors for a census. This is ROME we're talking about--both concepts fly in the face of the Roman system of taxation (in brief, they farmed it out). The only record of Jesus (Yeshua bin Joseph or whatever his name was) is Josephus, document that's rather widely regarded as a fraud (Josephus was a well-respected scholar; as I understand it someone inserted some stuff into his works). The list could easily go on.

But again, none of that matters. It's not our obligation to prove that the Bible isn't the word of God. It's the obligation of the Christians to prove that it IS. They've failed, for the last two thousand years (though to be fair, they've only really had to address the issue in the past 300 to 400 or so; before that they could get away with simply killing anyone who disagreed).

JJM 777 · 15th June 2012, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by not_so_new

modern Christians almost completely ignore the Old Testament or they rationalize it away with some "new covenant"

New Covenant is what NT is all about. But it takes affect from year 33 AD on, which leaves a question, why all the crap before year 33 AD? Besides, NT doesn´t rise so much above its time either, it fails to end slavery and racism, for example. These were criminalized some 1800 - 1900 years later.

Theofrak · 15th June 2012, 08:36 AM

Adam and Eve, the flood, stopping the sun in the sky so the Israelite can continue their battle

I Ratant · 15th June 2012, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by maxpower1227

His rationalization does nothing to salvage the flood myth, since there would be no need for Noah to gather two of every animal, as a tsunami would not cause any extinctions, except possibly among the stupidest of species.

Also I'm fairly certain that no tsunamis last for five months, or involve nonstop rain for 6 weeks. They also can't be predicted far enough in advance to build a boat to ride them out... there are just way too many holes.

What is possible is that a devastating tsunami hit some ancient civilizations and the story passed down through generations was embellished until it became a fantastical myth.

.
There was such an event in the Black Sea, on the other side of the mountains, 'long time ago. It did leave evidence. And memories and myths.
.
The amount of water needed to top Mt. Everest computes out to about 3 feet of water an hour falling from the sky.
That much water impacting any structure 24/40 would be bad news today!

14th June 2012, 07:02 PM	#1
not_so_new Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,544	Best evidence against..... So I was thinking about this the other day and I would love to hear some other opinions. In your view, what one piece of the bible (be it passage, gospel, book, whatever) best illustrates why you feel it isn't the word of a god? I have my opinion but I am going to save that for later, I would like to hear what others would have to say on it first. Oh and, sorry if this specific topic has been covered before, I didn't see a thread on this subject when I searched.

14th June 2012, 07:11 PM	#2
DallasDad Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 688	There's no content that indicates a divine origin -- that is, it's all stuff that the humans who wrote it would have known/thought/believed, and not significantly different from other myths.
DallasDad Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 688

14th June 2012, 07:34 PM	#3
Loss Leader Opinionated Jerk Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: New York Posts: 11,882	The flood.
	__________________ Follow me on Twitter! @LossLeader This force is receiving all the right to vote through the use of magic. - Miernik Wieslaw <NEW> VOTE FOR ME JUST BECAUSE <NEW>

14th June 2012, 07:47 PM	#5
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,517	I would think it's obvious that the Bible isn't the word of God because it's not written by God and instead the first few books are complete fantasy origin stories, the middle parts are justifications for a cult, and the latter part is a schism of the first cult (twice if you don't consider Paul to be a good representation of Jesus)
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers

14th June 2012, 07:50 PM	#6
not_so_new Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,544	Originally Posted by Loss Leader The flood. I used to think this as well. Had a good friend that was a pretty heavy duty Christian (we talked religion a lot, it was always a pretty respectable and interesting conversation). I mentioned the flood as an example of the absurdity of the bible and his rationalization was that "the Earth" to humans of the time would have been 10 or 15 square miles of land which made up their area. A "flood covering the whole Earth" could have been a localize disaster such as a tsunami. That would also make the whole ark thing much more plausible, at least in his eyes. I think that is a pretty weak argument, and ignores some other parts of that story, but it is sort of, maybe, something in the zip code of, possible. What it did for me was knock down the flood as the single most damning evidence of the bible. I still think it is complete and utter BS but for me there are stronger arguments.
	Last edited by not_so_new; 14th June 2012 at 08:01 PM.

14th June 2012, 07:44 PM	#4
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	The Flood is the easiest thing to disprove.

14th June 2012, 07:51 PM	#7
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,517	Like the Tower of Babel? ( I swear that story never gets the attention it deserves)
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers

14th June 2012, 07:52 PM	#8
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,409	If there is a God and he wrote the Bible (or at least supervised its authorship) then He did such a poor job of making it coherent and comprehensible that I would fear for His sanity.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

14th June 2012, 07:54 PM	#9
not_so_new Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,544	Originally Posted by Lowpro I would think it's obvious that the Bible isn't the word of God because it's not written by God and instead the first few books are complete fantasy origin stories, the middle parts are justifications for a cult, and the latter part is a schism of the first cult (twice if you don't consider Paul to be a good representation of Jesus) I agree with all the above.... but what ONE specific thing is the most compelling piece that you would point to? If you were in an elevator and you had to give an "elevator pitch" to someone who asks you "exactly what in the bible do you disagree with" what would you say before you had to get off at your floor?

14th June 2012, 08:00 PM	#10
not_so_new Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,544	Originally Posted by Lowpro Like the Tower of Babel? ( I swear that story never gets the attention it deserves) That is interesting, that is always high on my list. It is a classic example of bronze age (or earlier) people trying very hard to explain the world they lived in without having the ability to really learn the truth. I actually LOVE the Tower of Babel story, NOT because it is the word of some sky god. I love it because it is so completely and totally human. It explains our thought process at a point frozen in history and our continuing need to have answers to explain the world around us all at the same time.

14th June 2012, 08:09 PM	#11
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by Lowpro Like the Tower of Babel? ( I swear that story never gets the attention it deserves) Its a strange piece of writing - You can almost see the scene. "Daddy why doesn't everyone speak the same language?" "Well son it is like this.........."

14th June 2012, 08:13 PM	#12
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,517	Originally Posted by not_so_new I agree with all the above.... but what ONE specific thing is the most compelling piece that you would point to? If you were in an elevator and you had to give an "elevator pitch" to someone who asks you "exactly what in the bible do you disagree with" what would you say before you had to get off at your floor? I'd ask them why they are so willing to tell me this story at the risk of meeting Yama and being cast into Naraka. It's like the old story of the guy who asks you "What's it like to be an atheist" and you ask him "What's it like to be a Buddhist" and before he can tell you he's not one, you say "It's like that"
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers Last edited by Lowpro; 14th June 2012 at 08:18 PM.

14th June 2012, 08:19 PM	#13
not_so_new Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,544	Originally Posted by MG1962 Its a strange piece of writing - You can almost see the scene. "Daddy why doesn't everyone speak the same language?" "Well son it is like this.........." Yep, one of my favorite parts of the bible actually, for exactly that reason (see my post above).

14th June 2012, 08:22 PM	#14
Krikkiter Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,261	Originally Posted by not_so_new I agree with all the above.... but what ONE specific thing is the most compelling piece that you would point to? If you were in an elevator and you had to give an "elevator pitch" to someone who asks you "exactly what in the bible do you disagree with" what would you say before you had to get off at your floor? This might not be exactly on topic but... I had some Jehovah's Witness' come to my door the other day and the polite young girl (with her older, more experienced[?] mentor listening intently) asked why I didn't believe. My reply was that both the New and Old Testaments were so obviously made up of fictional stories that one would have to suspend all rational thought in order to make sense of any of it. A very general objection I know but the poor girl then went on to say that she believed in a literal version of both books and that there was verifiable evidence of Jesus' existence and miracle working... So, in an even more general sense (apologies!), the fact that the religious need to use extremely subjective interpretation and semantic contortion to justify anything that's written in either book is reason enough for me not to believe.

14th June 2012, 08:27 PM	#15
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,893	Originally Posted by not_so_new So I was thinking about this the other day and I would love to hear some other opinions. In your view, what one piece of the bible (be it passage, gospel, book, whatever) best illustrates why you feel it isn't the word of a god? Wrong question. The issue isn't disproving that the Bible is the word of God. First, at least an iota of evidence that it IS the word of God must be presented. It hasn't been; therefore we can assume that the book is, just like every other book in the history of humanity, a work of human minds. "It's not the word of God" is nothing more than the null hypothesis. Until that hypothesis is disproven, there's nothing more to say. Quote: If you were in an elevator and you had to give an "elevator pitch" to someone who asks you "exactly what in the bible do you disagree with" what would you say before you had to get off at your floor? "The archaeology. If you'd like to discuss this further, I have the references at my desk, and sit by an expert. You'll have to buy the beer, though."
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,893	__________________ GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. Ein krieg ohne feinde.

14th June 2012, 08:35 PM	#16
Beelzebuddy Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,714	Originally Posted by not_so_new I agree with all the above.... but what ONE specific thing is the most compelling piece that you would point to? Lot's daughters and the fabulous technicolor rape mob, hands down: Originally Posted by Genesis 19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, 19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. It's the story I lead all my "why I'm not a Christian anymore" discussions with. It's got everything - the morality espoused here is so alien no one participating honestly in today's society can accept it, a literal reading of the Bible leaves it undeniable, while a nonliteral reading is a clear case of selective belief, since the same story is presented again in Judges.

14th June 2012, 08:44 PM	#17
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,498	Originally Posted by DallasDad There's no content that indicates a divine origin -- that is, it's all stuff that the humans who wrote it would have known/thought/believed, and not significantly different from other myths. This^ It makes no sense a god would command its followers to keep people with lesions outside the town and yet not make a single mention of the importance of hand washing. Why ban eating pork and not mention the importance of cooking meat and for that matter, boiling drinking water? The Bible claims the Moon was the light in the night sky when it was actually reflected light. The Bible is chock full of stuff you'd expect to see if it were written by humans and the Bible contains not one thing that suggests supernatural knowledge.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

14th June 2012, 08:53 PM	#18
not_so_new Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,544	Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy Lot's daughters and the fabulous technicolor rape mob, hands down: It's the story I lead all my "why I'm not a Christian anymore" discussions with. It's got everything - the morality espoused here is so alien no one participating honestly in today's society can accept it, a literal reading of the Bible leaves it undeniable, while a nonliteral reading is a clear case of selective belief, since the same story is presented again in Judges. See, that's what I am talking about.... On the whole I completely agree with the more general responses above. The whole idea that someone would actually believe in something so absurd as the bible is amazing to me. But if pressed by a believer to point out a specific example that explains why I feel it is absurd, this is the sort of thing I would point to (but not exactly the thing I would point to in this instance).

14th June 2012, 08:59 PM	#19
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	The Law of Moses, as a whole.

14th June 2012, 09:01 PM	#20
not_so_new Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,544	Originally Posted by Krikkiter This might not be exactly on topic but... I had some Jehovah's Witness' come to my door the other day and the polite young girl (with her older, more experienced[?] mentor listening intently) asked why I didn't believe. My reply was that both the New and Old Testaments were so obviously made up of fictional stories that one would have to suspend all rational thought in order to make sense of any of it. A very general objection I know but the poor girl then went on to say that she believed in a literal version of both books and that there was verifiable evidence of Jesus' existence and miracle working... So, in an even more general sense (apologies!), the fact that the religious need to use extremely subjective interpretation and semantic contortion to justify anything that's written in either book is reason enough for me not to believe. Yep, that is the situation I am talking about. To someone who believes in the literal version of the bible, saying to them that I don't believe doesn't really make any point on either side. You believe, I don't, end of story. That's usually how I tend to leave these conversations. But what I often want to say is, "you mean you believe X in the bible?" and see what they have to say when they are presented with the absurdity of X. I know they are either going to say "it's out of context" or come up with some other rationalization which is why I usually let it drop before it ever gets to that point. I am just interested in hearing what that "X" would be from others. It's more of a day dreaming / wondering what other people think question more than a classical study of the fundamental flaws of religion in general.

14th June 2012, 09:11 PM	#21
not_so_new Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,544	Originally Posted by JJM 777 The Law of Moses, as a whole. Interesting... this is exactly why I started the thread. I am surprised at how many Old Testament answers are here. It seems that a good deal of modern Christians almost completely ignore the Old Testament or they rationalize it away with some "new covenant" make believe. When I was a Christian (as a boy) I didn't really believe in the Old Testament, being a "Christian" was about Jesus and the New Testament. The Old Testament was almost completely ignored in my CCD classes, it wasn't talked about much during mass, it was sort of brushed under the carpet by most believers. It's interesting to me that so many non believers seem to focus on it... of course it's also interesting (and sad) to me that believers have selective belief in their divine word of god magic book.

14th June 2012, 09:19 PM	#22
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Chapter 8 of the Gospel of John does it for me. No god I want to have anything to do with would pass up a chance to get stoned with a hooker.
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

14th June 2012, 09:23 PM	#23
KevinCanada Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 183	I think the Bible is a fraud as it does not give us one single shred of intelligible proof. Show me a piece of logic in the bible that we can confirm to be true today, that could not be confirmed at the time of writing. i say it is fake due to what it does not tell us but could of very easily told us.
KevinCanada Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 183

14th June 2012, 09:23 PM	#24
Krikkiter Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,261	Originally Posted by not_so_new Yep, that is the situation I am talking about. To someone who believes in the literal version of the bible, saying to them that I don't believe doesn't really make any point on either side. You believe, I don't, end of story. That's usually how I tend to leave these conversations. But what I often want to say is, "you mean you believe X in the bible?" and see what they have to say when they are presented with the absurdity of X. I know they are either going to say "it's out of context" or come up with some other rationalization which is why I usually let it drop before it ever gets to that point. I am just interested in hearing what that "X" would be from others. It's more of a day dreaming / wondering what other people think question more than a classical study of the fundamental flaws of religion in general. Yeah, sorry for the generalisation. In which case I'm gonna throw in the resurrection but specifically the zombie apocalypse part: "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." (KJV) Braaaaaaainz! ETA: Jonah too.
	Last edited by Krikkiter; 14th June 2012 at 09:25 PM.

14th June 2012, 09:36 PM	#25
maxpower1227 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,012	Originally Posted by not_so_new I used to think this as well. Had a good friend that was a pretty heavy duty Christian (we talked religion a lot, it was always a pretty respectable and interesting conversation). I mentioned the flood as an example of the absurdity of the bible and his rationalization was that "the Earth" to humans of the time would have been 10 or 15 square miles of land which made up their area. A "flood covering the whole Earth" could have been a localize disaster such as a tsunami. That would also make the whole ark thing much more plausible, at least in his eyes. I think that is a pretty weak argument, and ignores some other parts of that story, but it is sort of, maybe, something in the zip code of, possible. What it did for me was knock down the flood as the single most damning evidence of the bible. I still think it is complete and utter BS but for me there are stronger arguments. His rationalization does nothing to salvage the flood myth, since there would be no need for Noah to gather two of every animal, as a tsunami would not cause any extinctions, except possibly among the stupidest of species. Also I'm fairly certain that no tsunamis last for five months, or involve nonstop rain for 6 weeks. They also can't be predicted far enough in advance to build a boat to ride them out... there are just way too many holes. What is possible is that a devastating tsunami hit some ancient civilizations and the story passed down through generations was embellished until it became a fantastical myth.
	__________________ Warning. If you don't want to see your treasured "evidence" completely pwned in public, don't show it to the posters at JREF. - Rolfe

14th June 2012, 09:47 PM	#26
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by maxpower1227 What is possible is that a devastating tsunami hit some ancient civilizations and the story passed down through generations was embellished until it became a fantastical myth. I have always been a fan of the Black Sea flood being the origins of the story

14th June 2012, 09:53 PM	#27
Krikkiter Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,261	Originally Posted by MG1962 I have always been a fan of the Black Sea flood being the origins of the story Or the flooding of the Euphrates.

14th June 2012, 09:57 PM	#28
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,517	Originally Posted by MG1962 I have always been a fan of the Black Sea flood being the origins of the story The origins may not even be for the Black Sea. Myths generally are concerned with local areas; as I said before Japan has myths surrounding earthquakes and deified local fauna. With as many civilizations that have come and gone within Mesopotamia it's not surprising that there's a flood myth and what would be more interesting is which iteration may have started the trend of flood myths on the whole. It's all just nature worship.
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers

14th June 2012, 09:58 PM	#29
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,361	Originally Posted by Loss Leader The flood. Originally Posted by not_so_new I mentioned the flood as an example of the absurdity of the bible and his rationalization was that "the Earth" to humans of the time would have been 10 or 15 square miles of land which made up their area. A "flood covering the whole Earth" could have been a localize disaster such as a tsunami. That would also make the whole ark thing much more plausible, at least in his eyes. Originally Posted by Lowpro Like the Tower of Babel? ( I swear that story never gets the attention it deserves) You can't have both. If the flood only covered 10-15 mi² then there could not be so many languages that called for a tower. OTOH, if the world is so large as to support multiple languages, then a local tsunami doesn't cut the mustard.

14th June 2012, 10:38 PM	#30
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,730	I hesitate between the flood, genesis, or the apocalypse/revelation shroom induced nightmare.
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

15th June 2012, 05:29 AM	#31
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,314	Originally Posted by not_so_new So I was thinking about this the other day and I would love to hear some other opinions. In your view, what one piece of the bible (be it passage, gospel, book, whatever) best illustrates why you feel it isn't the word of a god? For originality, I'd go with the Plagues of Egypt. At various stages, Pharaoh is willing to let the Israelites go, but each time, YHWH hardens his heart and so Pharaoh doesn't. YHWH isn't content with letting the Israelites go without further ado, he isn't content with one lesson, no, it has to be ten plagues and on top of that the destruction of Pharaoh's army. It's not an illustration it isn't the word of god, but it is an illustration that YHWH is a sadistic, cruel, bloodthirsty monster. Do you want to believe in such a god?
	__________________ Proud member of the Solipsistic Autosycophant's Group

15th June 2012, 05:39 AM	#32
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,862	Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas Chapter 8 of the Gospel of John does it for me. No god I want to have anything to do with would pass up a chance to get stoned with a hooker. Leaving aside the hooker, for the moment ... Can an omniscient eternal unchanging Being get stoned? Have philosophers addressed this question?
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,862

15th June 2012, 06:12 AM	#33
godless dave Great Dalmuti Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: St. Paul, Minnesota Posts: 6,122	Originally Posted by not_so_new I used to think this as well. Had a good friend that was a pretty heavy duty Christian (we talked religion a lot, it was always a pretty respectable and interesting conversation). I mentioned the flood as an example of the absurdity of the bible and his rationalization was that "the Earth" to humans of the time would have been 10 or 15 square miles of land which made up their area. A "flood covering the whole Earth" could have been a localize disaster such as a tsunami. That would also make the whole ark thing much more plausible, at least in his eyes. Wouldn't that be an argument that the Bible was written by humans and is not the word of God? It's not the contents of the Bible that tells me it's not the word of God. What tells me it's not the word of God is that all other written works I know of were written by people. I don't see any reason to think the Bible wasn't also written by people.
	__________________ "If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm

15th June 2012, 06:20 AM	#34
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,661	NEWSFLASH Dateline London 15 June 2012 Missing page from first ever bible found astounding discovery It reads All persons and events mentioned in this novel are ficitional and are not intended to portray real events nor living people past or present....... The Archbishop of Canterbury issued a statement saying this is obviously a medieval hoax which carbon dating will no doubt prove.... ENDFLASH
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,661	Last edited by Dcdrac; 15th June 2012 at 06:22 AM.

15th June 2012, 06:22 AM	#35
SumDood Muse Join Date: May 2008 Location: Alabama Posts: 706	The concept of Hell solidifies it for me. And the fact that God actually came up with the concept in the first place. "Hmmmm, lets see...What sort of punishment can i bestow on people who don't follow my rules? Reincarnate them and give them a second chance? Show them the error of their ways and give them limited access in Heaven? No, I've got it! Lets torture them for all eternity!" To me, Hell is a human concept devised to scare people in to behaving. And then sometimes one can go to hell on a technicality. The worse sinner in the world can be crossing the street, see a bus about to hit them, think 'REPENT' and get into heaven. Another sinner in the same situation could think 'I'm about to die, I'm supposed to do something, what is it?" and BAM they die. And in the afterlife he realizes "Oh yeah, REPENT!" and is then told "You can't repent after you die, silly. You should have thought of that one second earlier. Its off to Hell with you!" Also, the most savage, murdering, baby raping warlord in the heart of Africa who has never heard about Christianity gets into heaven while the most charitable, altruistic humanitarian who works his entire life for the betterment of humanity, but just happens to be Jewish, goes to hell. Yeah, that's a loving god for you.
	__________________ All that is necessary for ignorance to triumph is for intelligent men to do nothing.