Greece becoming a third world country... who is to blame?

Humes fork · 14th June 2012, 12:53 PM

At least it looks so from what I read. People who a few years ago was part of the Greek middle class (a relative term of course, since Greece is one of the poorest European countries who was not part of the East Bloc) are lining up outside of churches together with the drug addicts and alcoholics to recieve food. The CEO of SSAB declared southern Europe "dead" today while describing the US as slowly recovering.

Who is to blame for this? Greece itself, Germany, the lendors (which include Germany) or someone else?

I think for the most part the Greek politicians and the utterly corrupt Greek state is to blame. But of course it is very sad for individual Greeks who lose all future prospects unless they emigrate. But I don't think one should overlook that the Greeks for large part have been complicit and apparently content with this state of affairs.

Spindrift · 14th June 2012, 01:28 PM

I'm pretty sure it is Obama's fault. Or maybe Bush. Or even Heraclitus.

Skeptical Greg · 14th June 2012, 02:32 PM

I think the Greeks are pretty much to blame here..

Marduk · 14th June 2012, 02:35 PM

I think the Hittites are pretty much to blame here..

bigred · 14th June 2012, 02:47 PM

Yeah I'm thinkin "Greece" is the answer. File this under the water-is-wet category. Freakin morons.

Saule · 14th June 2012, 03:04 PM

[quote=Humes fork;8370596

Who is to blame for this?.[/QUOTE]

Well, I did it

TragicMonkey · 14th June 2012, 04:08 PM

I blame Alexander the Great.

rjh01 · 14th June 2012, 04:30 PM

I do not think it is fair to blame anyone. There is plenty of blame to go around.
1. The Greeks who cooked the books.
2. The people who failed to detect the cooked books.
3. The people who loaned the Greeks money.
4. The Greek government who received the money.
5. The Greek people who demanded pensions at a early age and other benefits.
6. The Greek tax evaders.
7. The people who let the tax evaders off the hook.
8. The people who are even thinking of bailing out the Greeks.
9. The banks who loaned the Greeks so much money that the banks would be in trouble if the Greeks could not pay.

I am sure I could go on, but I am sure you get the picture.

KoihimeNakamura · 14th June 2012, 04:37 PM

Generally speaking, collapses do not have any one cause. rjh's most likely right: the blame is widespread.

Tsukasa Buddha · 14th June 2012, 04:49 PM

I think finding the proximate causes that built up to the crisis would be more helpful than finding someone to blame (there is a difference).

psionl0 · 14th June 2012, 08:19 PM

It is tempting to blame the Greeks for their plight but the truth is that no matter who you vote for, a politician always gets in. Politicians always preach small government and balanced budgets but practise the exact opposite.

GlennB · 14th June 2012, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by bigred

Yeah I'm thinkin "Greece" is the answer. File this under the water-is-wet category.

An interesting take on a complex situation.

When the sub-prime bubble burst, who was 'to blame'? The financial outfits who were not taking care to see that their customers would be able to pay off those mortgages, or the customers who grabbed what seemed like a sweet deal? How many low-income customers realised that their payments would rise dramatically after the 'honeymoon' low-interest period? How many lenders took the trouble to point this out?

Given that Goldman Sachs helped Greece cook its books to gain Eurozone entry then perhaps we should blame them and send the bill their way? Or blame the other Eurozone members who should have been able (some say were able, but ignored it) to calculate that the Greek figures simply didn't add up.

One thing that's for sure is that the ordinary Greek public had no clue about those shennanigans, yet it's precisely the low-hanging-fruit of salaried employees, pensioners and the like who are bearing the brunt of emergency taxes, pay+pension cuts and other austerity measures.

Francesca R · 15th June 2012, 03:21 AM

Originally Posted by Humes fork

Greece becoming a third world country

Slight exaggeration, or very pessimistic prediction: World Bank; IMF; UNDP, World Economic Forum

NoZed Avenger · 15th June 2012, 03:27 AM

Paul Bryce of 113B Wyndemere Court, Boulder, Colorado, USA.

DC · 15th June 2012, 03:54 AM

who to blame? overspending?

14th June 2012, 12:53 PM	#1
Humes fork Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,357	Greece becoming a third world country... who is to blame? At least it looks so from what I read. People who a few years ago was part of the Greek middle class (a relative term of course, since Greece is one of the poorest European countries who was not part of the East Bloc) are lining up outside of churches together with the drug addicts and alcoholics to recieve food. The CEO of SSAB declared southern Europe "dead" today while describing the US as slowly recovering. Who is to blame for this? Greece itself, Germany, the lendors (which include Germany) or someone else? I think for the most part the Greek politicians and the utterly corrupt Greek state is to blame. But of course it is very sad for individual Greeks who lose all future prospects unless they emigrate. But I don't think one should overlook that the Greeks for large part have been complicit and apparently content with this state of affairs.
	__________________ "Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." - Christopher Hitchens

14th June 2012, 01:28 PM	#2
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,455	I'm pretty sure it is Obama's fault. Or maybe Bush. Or even Heraclitus.
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14th June 2012, 02:32 PM	#3
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past 'Resume Speed' Posts: 12,873	I think the Greeks are pretty much to blame here..
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14th June 2012, 03:04 PM	#6
Saule Scholar Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 102	[quote=Humes fork;8370596 Who is to blame for this?.[/QUOTE] Well, I did it
Saule Scholar Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 102

14th June 2012, 04:08 PM	#7
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,092	I blame Alexander the Great.
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14th June 2012, 02:35 PM	#4
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	I think the Hittites are pretty much to blame here..

14th June 2012, 02:47 PM	#5
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,538	Yeah I'm thinkin "Greece" is the answer. File this under the water-is-wet category. Freakin morons.

14th June 2012, 04:30 PM	#8
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,190	I do not think it is fair to blame anyone. There is plenty of blame to go around. 1. The Greeks who cooked the books. 2. The people who failed to detect the cooked books. 3. The people who loaned the Greeks money. 4. The Greek government who received the money. 5. The Greek people who demanded pensions at a early age and other benefits. 6. The Greek tax evaders. 7. The people who let the tax evaders off the hook. 8. The people who are even thinking of bailing out the Greeks. 9. The banks who loaned the Greeks so much money that the banks would be in trouble if the Greeks could not pay. I am sure I could go on, but I am sure you get the picture.
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14th June 2012, 04:37 PM	#9
KoihimeNakamura Creativity Murderer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Graham, WA Posts: 6,859	Generally speaking, collapses do not have any one cause. rjh's most likely right: the blame is widespread.
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14th June 2012, 04:49 PM	#10
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,914	I think finding the proximate causes that built up to the crisis would be more helpful than finding someone to blame (there is a difference).
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14th June 2012, 08:19 PM	#11
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,785	It is tempting to blame the Greeks for their plight but the truth is that no matter who you vote for, a politician always gets in. Politicians always preach small government and balanced budgets but practise the exact opposite.

14th June 2012, 10:55 PM	#12
GlennB Jellied eel and offal fancier Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arcadia Posts: 8,952	Originally Posted by bigred Yeah I'm thinkin "Greece" is the answer. File this under the water-is-wet category. An interesting take on a complex situation. When the sub-prime bubble burst, who was 'to blame'? The financial outfits who were not taking care to see that their customers would be able to pay off those mortgages, or the customers who grabbed what seemed like a sweet deal? How many low-income customers realised that their payments would rise dramatically after the 'honeymoon' low-interest period? How many lenders took the trouble to point this out? Given that Goldman Sachs helped Greece cook its books to gain Eurozone entry then perhaps we should blame them and send the bill their way? Or blame the other Eurozone members who should have been able (some say were able, but ignored it) to calculate that the Greek figures simply didn't add up. One thing that's for sure is that the ordinary Greek public had no clue about those shennanigans, yet it's precisely the low-hanging-fruit of salaried employees, pensioners and the like who are bearing the brunt of emergency taxes, pay+pension cuts and other austerity measures.

15th June 2012, 03:21 AM	#13
Francesca R Girl Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London EC1 Posts: 11,825	Originally Posted by Humes fork Greece becoming a third world country Slight exaggeration, or very pessimistic prediction: World Bank; IMF; UNDP, World Economic Forum

15th June 2012, 03:27 AM	#14
NoZed Avenger Bitter Whiner Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 11,313	Paul Bryce of 113B Wyndemere Court, Boulder, Colorado, USA.
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15th June 2012, 03:54 AM	#15
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,674	who to blame? overspending?
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