Jerry Brown proposes teaching less science, shortening school year as budget solution

[Puppycow]

Second Year Science Graduation Requirement Elimination: Governor Stands Firm

Quote:

In his May revision of the 212-2013 budget, the governor made several changes to his education block grant proposal (designed to reform the education mandate system, of which the graduation requirement is a part). One thing he did not change was his proposal to eliminate the “Graduation Requirement” mandate, which requires high school students to complete two years of science to fulfill their graduation requirements.

CSTA has been reporting and acting on the Governor’s proposal to eliminate the Graduation Requirement mandate since February (March, April, May). In May, CSTA teamed up with the California STEM Learning Network (CSLNet). Our combined efforts have resulted in gaining support for our position of opposing the Governor’s proposal in the Assembly, but there is still work to be done in the Senate.

Jerry Brown urges budget cuts amid California's $16B shortfall

Quote:

Brown proposed $8.3 billion in cuts across education, health care and welfare programs in laying out a plan to address the state's $15.7 billion shortfall, an amount equal to 17 percent of the state's discretionary fund. He warned that additional cuts are ahead if voters reject his tax-hike initiative in November.

. . .

If voters reject the tax increases in the fall, Brown is proposing $6 billion in additional automatic spending cuts, almost all of which would fall on K-12 schools. The so-called trigger cuts could mean that some districts would have to cut the school year by up to three weeks.

Brown said the cuts are real and will impact every school in the state.

At the same time Brown is pushing ahead with a high-speed rail boondoggle whose projected costs have ballooned:
California Proposition 1A, High-Speed Rail Act (2008)

Quote:

In 2008, when voters approved the measure, the estimate for the total cost of the project was $40 billion. In 2011, the California High-Speed Rail Authority issued a new cost estimate for the entire project, saying that it will cost between $98.5 billion and $118 billion.[2]

California High-Speed Rail Losing Support, Poll Shows

Quote:

A majority of voters no longer support building a $68 billion high-speed passenger rail system connecting California’s population centers, a new poll shows, even as Governor Jerry Brown is pushing the project forward.

While 53 percent of voters approved a bond issue for the project in 2008, a USC Dornsife/Los Angeles Times poll published in yesterday’s edition of the newspaper, found that 59 percent would oppose it if given another chance to vote.

Brown, a 74-year-old Democrat, allocated some of the $9.95 billion of bonds for the system in his budget for the fiscal year that begins July 1, even though a deficit in the spending plan has ballooned to $15.7 billion. He wants voters to increase sales and income taxes or slash 3 weeks off the school year while still spending money on the rail line.
. . .
The bullet-train project, eventually linking San Francisco to Los Angeles, would cost $68.4 billion, down from the $98.5 billion estimated in November, according to the California High- Speed Rail Authority. The proposal saves money by upgrading existing commuter and freight lines in some areas, rather than build new track, and counts on funds from California’s new program selling pollution credits.

The "savings" come from cannibalizing existing commuter and freight lines, and even with these "savings" the cost is still much higher than what voters bargained for when they voted for the plan.

Why is education on the chopping block and not this ginormous boondoggle?

[Twiggett]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Second Year Science Graduation Requirement Elimination: Governor Stands Firm



Jerry Brown urges budget cuts amid California's $16B shortfall



At the same time Brown is pushing ahead with a high-speed rail boondoggle whose projected costs have ballooned:
California Proposition 1A, High-Speed Rail Act (2008)



California High-Speed Rail Losing Support, Poll Shows


The "savings" come from cannibalizing existing commuter and freight lines, and even with these "savings" the cost is still much higher than what voters bargained for when they voted for the plan.

Why is education on the chopping block and not this ginormous boondoggle?

Is this guy serious? Cutting education and not a damn train?

[BStrong]

Originally Posted by Twiggett

Is this guy serious? Cutting education and not a damn train?

His theory is that the train project will create jobs, which will jump start the economy.

[Twiggett]

Originally Posted by BStrong

His theory is that the train project will create jobs, which will jump start the economy.

Um yeah, sure, because cutting a little travel time between two cities is sure going to do that..........

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by BStrong

His theory is that the train project will create jobs, which will jump start the economy.

But at the expense of education? Under current budget constraints? Given the ballooning costs?
Do we even know that enough people will actually use it to make it economically viable?

[ehcks]

Originally Posted by BStrong

His theory is that the train project will create jobs, which will jump start the economy.

Because educating people doesn't create jobs, obviously.

[SimonD]

Originally Posted by BStrong

His theory is that the train project will create jobs, which will jump start the economy.

Don't you need an education to get a job?

[Travis]

Don't bad mouth the train. I have invested too much time and energy into making sure it gets built.

I'd gladly see every school in this state closed down before I'll give up that train project. Not that it would be necessary. The project is being built by a totally separate bond measure so canceling it would do absolutely nothing for the schools.

And the real issue here is how we vote down every single state wide tax increase then, when services get cut, vote against new taxes to protest the lost services. If we do lose science education we will deserve it for being so damned stupid in the first place.

[Travis]

Another thing is that this absolutely isn't an either/or proposition. California needs to maintain education standards to be relevant in the future but it also needs the high speed train. Not doing one of them will obviate any gains from the other. Great schools will mean jack if the state economy implodes when no one can get around anywhere. And that is exactly the fate we are fast approaching and no one seems to realize it. They don't seem to realize that if we don't build the high speed train then we need to very extensively expand the highway and airport system and that will cost $180 billion at a minimum. Seriously Caltrans says just widening CA99 by two more lanes from Stockton to Bakersfield would cost $30 billion. Expand LAX? Another $20 billion and that's assuming the courts allow you to evict the estimated 10,000 people from their homes that any expansion would require. Want to expand Burbank airport? Same deal.

The reality is that the high speed train is the least expensive option California has for avoiding another economic catastrophe. It sucks that it is still expensive but that can't be avoided. California was doomed for that when it laid out its railroad network in a way where there is essentially no direct route from southern California to northern California. If we want any passenger train service between the two regions a new line will have to built through the Tehachapi mountains.

Or, you know, we could just continue on with the status quo and its $180 billion price tag and no environmental benefit.

[marplots]

Maybe they could put some science posters on the train.

[Travis]

In case you couldn't tell this issue is my personal berserk button. And, in light of that, I have made a thread where we can all reveal what makes us go mad with rage.

[psionl0]

Quote:

If voters reject the tax increases in the fall, Brown is proposing $6 billion in additional automatic spending cuts, almost all of which would fall on K-12 schools. The so-called trigger cuts could mean that some districts would have to cut the school year by up to three weeks.

This guy is nuts. Doesn't he realize that the primary function of schools is baby sitting? He will have to spend more on police to deal with the extra crime caused by loosing teenagers on the streets longer.

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by Travis

I'd gladly see every school in this state closed down before I'll give up that train project.

That's very reasonable.

[Theofrak]

I'm so glad I moved out of California

[rcfieldz]

More time for Raves!!!

[NobbyNobbs]

So basically, California will end up with a brand new train system and a bunch of graduates who don't know how to read the schedule.

[BStrong]

Hey fellas, I'm not defending Brown - I'm relating his version of the facts.

He's up a creek without a paddle, and he now realizes that he should have retired from the AG's office or found another gig.

California is in such bad shape that "the big one" (earthquake) would be easier to live through than the financial collapse that's on the way, and Brown et al have -0- chance of fixing the problem.

[dasmiller]

Originally Posted by NobbyNobbs

So basically, California will end up with a brand new train system and a bunch of graduates who don't know how to read the schedule.

This may not be as big a problem as you'd think. If the trains run like the buses in my area, there's no obvious relationship between the printed schedule and the actual arrival/departure times.

[Eudaemonic Plague]

Originally Posted by dasmiller

This may not be as big a problem as you'd think. If the trains run like the buses in my area, there's no obvious relationship between the printed schedule and the actual arrival/departure times.

Heheh. Here, we have the problem of bus drivers being menaces on the streets, because they're under so much pressure to run on time. Since 2004, we've had two University of Illinois students killed. Both were pedestrians, both were in a crosswalk, broad daylight. I've personally had MTD drivers cut me off numerous times, sometimes nearly hitting my car. Yeah, I'd rather they were late, than drive like that.

Illinois is getting high speed rail, and from what I've read so far, Illinois tax payers aren't being required to cough up the money for it. Of course, we're not having to build completely from scratch, and the distances are less. It'll help a friend of mine, I think.

Why does California have to raise its own money for high speed rail? Isn't that what Obama's plan is for?

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by NobbyNobbs

So basically, California will end up with a brand new train system

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by Eudaemonic Plague

Why does California have to raise its own money for high speed rail? Isn't that what Obama's plan is for?

It was. Obama's rail plans were scuttled by the Republicans. But before that happened about $4 billion was allocated to the California plan.

That will allow California to build the "test track" that the FRA wants.

There's also the fact that China may loan California $20 billion to get the system running from San Fran to LA. In exchange a Chinese company would be running the trains over the system and keeping the profit.

If anyone wants to see how Jerry Brown's pressure redid the project so it is scaled down from $100 billion to $30 billion while still being useful please go check this link.

[TubbaBlubba]

Originally Posted by Travis

Don't bad mouth the train. I have invested too much time and energy into making sure it gets built.

I'd gladly see every school in this state closed down before I'll give up that train project.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost_fallacy

A flawless example.

[Mark6]

Originally Posted by Travis

I'd gladly see every school in this state closed down before I'll give up that train project.

Please tell me this is a hyperbole.

Originally Posted by Travis

As you all may know my berserk button issue is high speed rail. I've put a buttload of time into campaigning to get the California system built.

And my support for the train has become almost pathological. Sometimes I'm sitting around feeling fine then all of a sudden I remember there are people out there that criticize the idea and I fly into a rage that leaves everyone in the vicinity in a state of "WTF just happened with Travis? He was just staring at the wall then started screaming obscenities at the Reason Foundation. Whatever the hell that is."

Frankly I'm amazed no one has tried to tranquilize me over it yet.



Soooo.....who here is willing to own up to an issue that sets them off in a psycho rage?

Something tells me it was NOT a hyperbole...

[ravdin]

As much as I'm disgusted with the boondoggle that is the train project, Travis is correct that it's not a trade off with the school budget. It was approved by popular ballot and Jerry Brown could not defund it if he wanted to. It's a classic example of what too much democracy can do- every time there's statewide ballot initiatives California voters want more services from the government but less taxes to pay for them.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Much as science ed seems critical so do a lot of the other education expenses which are threatened to be cut. People need to pay higher taxes but they are convinced by arguments like the government is wasting money on X or Y. There's a 16 billion dollar shortfall. It's not about any one thing.

Gov. Jerry Brown says voters face 'day of reckoning' to avoid budget pain

The high speed rail project is being funded with bonds. That means people invest in the bonds and the state defers payment. So it isn't the same fund as the education funds. You can't compare the two. It the rail project was dropped the money already spent would still be owed and there would be nothing to show for it.

Unspent money would not then be freed up to go toward other needs.


As for the science requirement, the way states are cutting back on funding universities is putting a very heavy debt burden on students that currently exceeds all credit card debt. Seems a higher priority to me, tax wise. Brown believes he needs to cut university funding a whopping 25%.


I think people should use caution trying to evaluate these decisions in isolation or pitting priorities against each other from different funding sources.

[Beerina]

Originally Posted by psionl0

This guy is nuts. Doesn't he realize that the primary function of schools is baby sitting? He will have to spend more on police to deal with the extra crime caused by loosing teenagers on the streets longer.

Increase classroom size -- low student-teacher ratios are vastly overstated as affecting outcomes (as is essentially everthing aside from family emphasis on learning).

Also the number of administrative positions and sinecures has climbed until it exceeds number of teachers. Slash, slash, slash. Plenty of room to slash without directly affecting education.

[MattusMaximus]

Originally Posted by ravdin

As much as I'm disgusted with the boondoggle that is the train project, Travis is correct that it's not a trade off with the school budget. It was approved by popular ballot and Jerry Brown could not defund it if he wanted to. It's a classic example of what too much democracy can do- every time there's statewide ballot initiatives California voters want more services from the government but less taxes to pay for them.

This is one reason living in Illinois is at least marginally better than living in California. Here we had the foresight to elect a governor who not only cut spending but also raised taxes (horror of horrors). In California it appears damn near impossible to raise taxes.

What's going on in CA reminds me of the old Peter Tosh saying: "Everybody wants to go to Heaven, but nobody wants to die."

[MattusMaximus]

Originally Posted by Careyp74

Having driven in California a couple of times, I can see how the desire for a HSR system is high. They have a very poor transportation infrastructure. Isn't California also very high in regards to education? Couldn't they afford a little less science?

Thanks for the info, I like learning new (to me) theories that go against the mindset of society. (ha, just read their term for it, real-world behavior.)

The idea there is, sunk costs should not influence future decisions, which is like chasing the pot in poker. Sunk costs may make a decision more favorable, by changing the needed investment, but should not be a reason on its own.

It is also a good example of how people act irrationally.

Hey Travis, TubbaBlubba is calling you irrational.

Education is the best long-term investment to make, hands down, in my opinion. Or, to make an analogy to my days growing up on the farm, "you don't eat your seed corn."

[Dymanic]

Reposting an article related to the first of the two issues raised by the OP, as it was swept off to the split thread dedicated to the second issue (High Speed Rail):

Quote:

Facing uncertain budget prospects, California State University officials announced plans to freeze enrollment next spring at most campuses and to wait-list all applicants the following fall pending the outcome of a proposed tax initiative on the November ballot.

The university is moving to reduce enrollment to deal with $750 million in funding cuts already made in the 2011-12 fiscal year and position itself for at least an additional $200-million cut next year if the tax proposal fails.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar...state-20120320

It may be true that "almost all" of the $6 billion in additional automatic trigger cuts will fall on K-12 schools, but evidently, a failure of the proposed tax initiative would still have the impact of denying tens of thousands of students access to the state's largest public university system, and I see that as deserving at least a few moment's consideration. Strangely enough, I have encountered absolutely nothing in the media on this issue beyond this one article from three months ago.

[I am Bigfoot]

Originally Posted by Beerina

Increase classroom size -- low student-teacher ratios are vastly overstated as affecting outcomes (as is essentially everthing aside from family emphasis on learning).

Also the number of administrative positions and sinecures has climbed until it exceeds number of teachers. Slash, slash, slash. Plenty of room to slash without directly affecting education.

It's all so simple! You solved all problems! YOU SHOULD BE PRESIDENT OF CALIFORNIA!

[ThunderChunky]

Even though I voted for it. I would vote down the rail bill if given the choice. Self driving cars FTW. That's where three money should go.

[fuelair]

I'm going to just sit and smile here wondering vaguely what parents with kids planning to go to college are going to do as the number of science teachers - and, by default the number of science classes available drop. As most colleges look for more than two science classes - especially the good ones - for any students they bring in for reasons other than the parents paying for a new gym or equivalent. Should be interesting..........

[uruk]

[quote=Travis;8366269]

Quote:

I'd gladly see every school in this state closed down before I'll give up that train project. Not that it would be necessary. The project is being built by a totally separate bond measure so canceling it would do absolutely nothing for the schools.

I don't see how the logic works out.

Education is being cut because of a budget shortfall yet the budget short fall does not affect the train dispite the fact that state money is being spent on the train.

Bond or not it is still Californian money being spent. Money that could go into other budgets such as education.

So you could build your train in the hopes to increase jobs but you will have a generation or two of students who might not be sufficiently educated to fill those jobs.

So those jobs become filled by people imported out of state or the train will be run by a Chinese company who will siphon profits out of California.

I hope everything works out in the end. Good luck.

[Beerina]

Government using money for something it said it would use for something else is also sadly all too common.

[Beerina]

Originally Posted by I am Bigfoot

It's all so simple! You solved all problems! YOU SHOULD BE PRESIDENT OF CALIFORNIA!

Cutting is easy if you don't have to worry about people being cut voting against you.

Politicians built this world, and are happy to expand their employee serfs in good times. Let them twist in the wind with their hand forced by a balanced budget requirement in bad times.

[Robrob]

Short term stopgap remedy that will most certainly be "someone else's problem" down the road.