The "religion of peace" strikes again. - Page 3

I Ratant · 19th June 2012, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Beerina

With all due respect, we have spent the last few hundred years turning Christianity into a largely harmless lifestyle choice.

Islam has a long, long way to go.

So in a sense it is apples to oranges. You need to compare it to Christianity of 1000 years ago.

.
Heard a quote on tv last night..
"The Catholic Church is an atheist factory now".

mikeyx · 19th June 2012, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by The Dark Lord

This is abhorrent. But aren't you a fundie Christian? Shall we list all the evil things that people have done in the name of your retarded religion?

Yes, yes he is. Hypocrite, absolutely. Will your Meldrum ave you now?

MG1962 · 19th June 2012, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
Mussed your hair as it passed over.

That would be about 2 decades to late

But I am still interested how an event 300 years ago reflects on those today

I Ratant · 19th June 2012, 04:50 PM

Consider that 300 years ago, the murders by the lunatic fundies in Massachusetts had a direct effect on the Constitution, but the religion of the OP has yet to separate the voodoo world from the real world, the fundies in that religion are a viable threat today.

rwguinn · 19th June 2012, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

Consider that 300 years ago, the murders by the lunatic fundies in Massachusetts had a direct effect on the Constitution, but the religion of the OP has yet to separate the voodoo world from the real world, the fundies in that religion are a viable threat today.

You are no fun.
You're supposed to reply with an example of how "anything Muslims do, Christians do worse", even if the events were 300 years ago.

Most folks here are waaay to predictable and easy to set off. Not so much atheists as anti-western-religionists...

ANTPogo · 19th June 2012, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by rwguinn

You are no fun.
You're supposed to reply with an example of how "anything Muslims do, Christians do worse", even if the events were 300 years ago.

Anything terrible you can say about Islam, you can say about Christianity. Any terrible thing that a Muslim has done in the name of his religion, a Christian has done in the name of his. The long, violent history of both runs parallel.

Quote:

Most folks here are waaay to predictable and easy to set off. Not so much atheists as anti-western-religionists...

It's odd how many self-proclaimed atheists get so upset when it's pointed out just how alike Islam and Christianity really are (and not just when it comes to the bad parts, either).

MG1962 · 19th June 2012, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Anything terrible you can say about Islam, you can say about Christianity. Any terrible thing that a Muslim has done in the name of his religion, a Christian has done in the name of his. The long, violent history of both runs parallel.

And it is very sloppy thinking to paint everyone from a faith with the same brush. In medieval Japan there was a whole class of warrior monks made up of Buddhists - So by default all Buddhist are militarist fundamentalists

Quote:

It's odd how many self-proclaimed atheists get so upset when it's pointed out just how alike Islam and Christianity really are (and not just when it comes to the bad parts, either).

Whenever I have spoken to followers of Islam I always think back to Enemy Mine and how two completely different Holy books said virtually the same thing

ANTPogo · 19th June 2012, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

And it is very sloppy thinking to paint everyone from a faith with the same brush. In medieval Japan there was a whole class of warrior monks made up of Buddhists - So by default all Buddhist are militarist fundamentalists

I find it almost bizarre that people who understand the vast gulfs between Evangelicals, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, and Unitarian Universalists in Christianity nevertheless think that a Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim.

Quote:

Whenever I have spoken to followers of Islam I always think back to Enemy Mine and how two completely different Holy books said virtually the same thing

One of my hobbies is reading the various intra-Islamic polemics, where Shia apologists point out how incorrect the beliefs of the Wahhabiyya are and how their canonical hadith collections are ridiculously wrong, or how Turkish Sunnis accuse the Pakistani followers of Maududi (also a Sunni) of being totally off base, or how (sadly) everyone seems to enjoy kicking the Ahmadiyya. Yet every single one of them quotes from the exact same Qur'an.

And every time I see a Christian (cultural Christian or believing Christian) try to claim that Yahweh and Allah aren't the same god at all and the two religions have nothing whatsoever to do with each other, I think about all the mentions and stories of Abraham and Noah and Moses and Jesus in the Qur'an, and roll my eyes.

I Ratant · 19th June 2012, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

I find it almost bizarre that people who understand the vast gulfs between Evangelicals, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Catholics in Christianity nevertheless think that a Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim.

One of my hobbies is reading the various intra-Islamic polemics, where Shia apologists point out how incorrect the beliefs of the Wahhabiyya are and how their canonical hadith collections are ridiculously wrong, or how Turkish Sunnis accuse the Pakistani followers of Maududi (also a Sunni) are totally off base, or how (sadly) everyone seems to enjoy kicking the Ahmadiyya. Yet every single one of them quotes from the exact same Qur'an.

And every time I see a Christian (cultural Christian or believing Christian) try to claim that Yahweh and Allah aren't the same god at all and the two religions have nothing whatsoever to do with each other, I think about all the mentions and stories of Abraham and Noah and Moses and Jesus in the Qur'an, and roll my eyes.

.
The noisiest devotees of any of these will not recognize their commonality, ever!

Corsair 115 · 19th June 2012, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

Are you suggesting the United States commits acts of terror around the world, specifically targeting civilians?

The key words in the above that are worth noting are "specifically targeting". Those two words immediately render any subsequent discussion very much into a world of murky grey.

For example, one can say that, no, they were not specifically targeting civilians when a bomb was dropped into the middle of a market to get a high-value target. That several dozen civilians were killed in the process was just unfortunate collateral damage. But that very point raises the sticky question: just how many civilian deaths are acceptable in a strike against a high-value target? Ten? A hundred? A thousand? Where is the line drawn, and how?

There are no easy answers. It's a complicated, messy set of scenarios.

DC · 19th June 2012, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by rwguinn

Since the rest of them tolerate, rather than condemn, their actions.

what a failure

DC · 19th June 2012, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by Toontown

Yeah. That's it. It's because Christianity is always treated with the utmost respect, and only mainstream Christian views are presented.

you mean like when catholic priests abused kids, media and also here most people said that catholic priests have abused kids instead of saying christian priests or even christians in general abused kids?

TimCallahan · 20th June 2012, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Noted Islam apologist President George W. Bush called it that, while speaking at the Islamic Center of Washington DC, less than a week after the 9/11 attacks.

So, if a twit like "W", who isn't a Muslim, calls it a religion of peace, that's the same a Islam billing itself a religion of peace?

Foster Zygote · 20th June 2012, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Anything terrible you can say about Islam, you can say about Christianity. Any terrible thing that a Muslim has done in the name of his religion, a Christian has done in the name of his. The long, violent history of both runs parallel.

It's odd how many self-proclaimed atheists get so upset when it's pointed out just how alike Islam and Christianity really are (and not just when it comes to the bad parts, either).

Just look at the genocide of some 800,000 people that took place in Rwanda. That's a country that is 98% Christian. It seems to me that the actions of any particular group have a lot less to do with the identity of its religion than the wealth and stability of its culture.

Foster Zygote · 20th June 2012, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

And every time I see a Christian (cultural Christian or believing Christian) try to claim that Yahweh and Allah aren't the same god at all and the two religions have nothing whatsoever to do with each other, I think about all the mentions and stories of Abraham and Noah and Moses and Jesus in the Qur'an, and roll my eyes.

Slightly off topic, but I once heard a Christian declare that the Muslim god wasn't really the same as his because they followed a false prophet. He was rather offended when I pointed out that most Jews view Christianity in exactly the same way.

westprog · 20th June 2012, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by Corsair 115

The key words in the above that are worth noting are "specifically targeting". Those two words immediately render any subsequent discussion very much into a world of murky grey.

For example, one can say that, no, they were not specifically targeting civilians when a bomb was dropped into the middle of a market to get a high-value target. That several dozen civilians were killed in the process was just unfortunate collateral damage. But that very point raises the sticky question: just how many civilian deaths are acceptable in a strike against a high-value target? Ten? A hundred? A thousand? Where is the line drawn, and how?

There are no easy answers. It's a complicated, messy set of scenarios.

Bear in mind that the civilians may be in a country with which the USA is not at war, and which has not given them permission to carry out the attack. They may have nothing to do with the target apart from physical proximity. The potential lives saved by eliminating the target might be greatly in excess of those cost by taking him out, or they might not. It's a difficult one to judge.

What is fairly clear is that if anyone carried out such an action against the USA, even if no civilians were hurt, even if an active terrorist were targetted, the response would not be indulgent.

MG1962 · 20th June 2012, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

Just look at the genocide of some 800,000 people that took place in Rwanda. That's a country that is 98% Christian. It seems to me that the actions of any particular group have a lot less to do with the identity of its religion than the wealth and stability of its culture.

When you have people of the same religion you have to default to something else to demonise them with. In this case it was the ethnic card played

Toontown · 20th June 2012, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by DC

you mean like when catholic priests abused kids, media and also here most people said that catholic priests have abused kids instead of saying christian priests or even christians in general abused kids?

Oh, you want to play little games, do you?

OK...you've said something critical of Christians. Now say something critical of Muslims.

(crickets)

Can't do it, can you.

ANTPogo · 20th June 2012, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Toontown

Oh, you want to play little games, do you?

OK...you've said something critical of Christians. Now say something critical of Muslims.

(crickets)

Can't do it, can you.

I can.

Quote:

I've read various attempts at justifying this [a man being easily able to divorce a woman, but the near-impossibility of the reverse], but none of it (nor the various inferior methods a woman can try to obtain a divorce) can disguise the essentially misogynistic, patriarchal nature and origin of divorce in general under shariah.

Happy now, Toontown?

Toontown · 21st June 2012, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

I can.

Happy now, Toontown?

Great. Here comes the Muslim-critical cavalry, just in the nick of time.

Frankly, I could be happier, since my request was not addressed to you. But I suppose, in the realm of ideologically motivated selective religion criticism, you take what you can get.

Monketey Ghost · 21st June 2012, 09:45 AM

*sigh*

I know lots of Christians, but don't get to spend much time with them. Know why? ~They're always out protesting some stupid, offensive thing other Christians have said or done, raising their voices so that media in other countries take notice of how badly they feel that a small number of Christians have hijacked their religion.

DC · 22nd June 2012, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by Toontown

Oh, you want to play little games, do you?

OK...you've said something critical of Christians. Now say something critical of Muslims.

(crickets)

Can't do it, can you.

what? i said nothing critical about Christians. i said something critical about Catholic priests.

the only critical thing i can say about muslims in general is that they have a silly believe in some old fairytales about some alleged god creating everything there is. laughable stuff.

epepke · 23rd June 2012, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost

*sigh*

I know lots of Christians, but don't get to spend much time with them. Know why? ~They're always out protesting some stupid, offensive thing other Christians have said or done, raising their voices so that media in other countries take notice of how badly they feel that a small number of Christians have hijacked their religion.

http://www.towleroad.com/2010/07/chr...n-chicago.html

KevinCanada · 23rd June 2012, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by baron

I know, but that's not really my point. The diversionary tactics are always applied to Islamic topics, never any other religion, so much so that you can bet the second post in any Islamic thread will be attempting to drag the topic OT. I have a healthy dislike for all Abrahamic religions and many others too, but I that doesn't prevent me speaking out when people attempt this phony apologist nonsense at every turn.

Yes but other religions frankly all of them are not running around blowing people up and chanting god is great. this is why islamists get special attention.

KevinCanada · 23rd June 2012, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

I find it almost bizarre that people who understand the vast gulfs between Evangelicals, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, and Unitarian Universalists in Christianity nevertheless think that a Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim.

One of my hobbies is reading the various intra-Islamic polemics, where Shia apologists point out how incorrect the beliefs of the Wahhabiyya are and how their canonical hadith collections are ridiculously wrong, or how Turkish Sunnis accuse the Pakistani followers of Maududi (also a Sunni) of being totally off base, or how (sadly) everyone seems to enjoy kicking the Ahmadiyya. Yet every single one of them quotes from the exact same Qur'an.

And every time I see a Christian (cultural Christian or believing Christian) try to claim that Yahweh and Allah aren't the same god at all and the two religions have nothing whatsoever to do with each other, I think about all the mentions and stories of Abraham and Noah and Moses and Jesus in the Qur'an, and roll my eyes.

The Sunni and Shia, Difference goes beyond the Quran, so when they quote they are reading the context differently.

Same applies to the Christians saying the Gods are not the same. They maybe the same to you due to context. But to the Christian, and Muslim, they are very different beings, Again it goes back to differences beyond the actual word written in those two books.

I think back to my high school days and a grade 10 English assignment, It was a novel study, 20 to 30 kids in the class had to read out loud their notes of what they believed the book meant and cite context sources to support those beliefs. Every single student had it's own spin on the the book. The words didn't change, but the circumstances in which the material was read and mentally absorbed did along with the environment it was read in.

19th June 2012, 03:16 PM	#82
mikeyx Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 3,570	Originally Posted by The Dark Lord This is abhorrent. But aren't you a fundie Christian? Shall we list all the evil things that people have done in the name of your retarded religion? Yes, yes he is. Hypocrite, absolutely. Will your Meldrum ave you now?
mikeyx Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 3,570

19th June 2012, 05:01 PM	#85
rwguinn Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes Posts: 8,439	Originally Posted by I Ratant Consider that 300 years ago, the murders by the lunatic fundies in Massachusetts had a direct effect on the Constitution, but the religion of the OP has yet to separate the voodoo world from the real world, the fundies in that religion are a viable threat today. You are no fun. You're supposed to reply with an example of how "anything Muslims do, Christians do worse", even if the events were 300 years ago. Most folks here are waaay to predictable and easy to set off. Not so much atheists as anti-western-religionists...
	__________________ "Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275

19th June 2012, 05:21 PM	#86
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,364	Originally Posted by rwguinn You are no fun. You're supposed to reply with an example of how "anything Muslims do, Christians do worse", even if the events were 300 years ago. Anything terrible you can say about Islam, you can say about Christianity. Any terrible thing that a Muslim has done in the name of his religion, a Christian has done in the name of his. The long, violent history of both runs parallel. Quote: Most folks here are waaay to predictable and easy to set off. Not so much atheists as anti-western-religionists... It's odd how many self-proclaimed atheists get so upset when it's pointed out just how alike Islam and Christianity really are (and not just when it comes to the bad parts, either).
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris Last edited by ANTPogo; 19th June 2012 at 05:23 PM.

19th June 2012, 06:16 PM	#88
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,364	Originally Posted by MG1962 And it is very sloppy thinking to paint everyone from a faith with the same brush. In medieval Japan there was a whole class of warrior monks made up of Buddhists - So by default all Buddhist are militarist fundamentalists I find it almost bizarre that people who understand the vast gulfs between Evangelicals, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, and Unitarian Universalists in Christianity nevertheless think that a Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim. Quote: Whenever I have spoken to followers of Islam I always think back to Enemy Mine and how two completely different Holy books said virtually the same thing One of my hobbies is reading the various intra-Islamic polemics, where Shia apologists point out how incorrect the beliefs of the Wahhabiyya are and how their canonical hadith collections are ridiculously wrong, or how Turkish Sunnis accuse the Pakistani followers of Maududi (also a Sunni) of being totally off base, or how (sadly) everyone seems to enjoy kicking the Ahmadiyya. Yet every single one of them quotes from the exact same Qur'an. And every time I see a Christian (cultural Christian or believing Christian) try to claim that Yahweh and Allah aren't the same god at all and the two religions have nothing whatsoever to do with each other, I think about all the mentions and stories of Abraham and Noah and Moses and Jesus in the Qur'an, and roll my eyes.
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris Last edited by ANTPogo; 19th June 2012 at 06:47 PM. Reason: minor grammar issues, added mention of UU

19th June 2012, 10:10 PM	#90
Corsair 115 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 8,564	Originally Posted by Quad4_72 Are you suggesting the United States commits acts of terror around the world, specifically targeting civilians? The key words in the above that are worth noting are "specifically targeting". Those two words immediately render any subsequent discussion very much into a world of murky grey. For example, one can say that, no, they were not specifically targeting civilians when a bomb was dropped into the middle of a market to get a high-value target. That several dozen civilians were killed in the process was just unfortunate collateral damage. But that very point raises the sticky question: just how many civilian deaths are acceptable in a strike against a high-value target? Ten? A hundred? A thousand? Where is the line drawn, and how? There are no easy answers. It's a complicated, messy set of scenarios.
	__________________ "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win."

19th June 2012, 03:12 PM	#81
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Beerina With all due respect, we have spent the last few hundred years turning Christianity into a largely harmless lifestyle choice. Islam has a long, long way to go. So in a sense it is apples to oranges. You need to compare it to Christianity of 1000 years ago. . Heard a quote on tv last night.. "The Catholic Church is an atheist factory now".

19th June 2012, 04:16 PM	#83
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by I Ratant . Mussed your hair as it passed over. That would be about 2 decades to late But I am still interested how an event 300 years ago reflects on those today

19th June 2012, 04:50 PM	#84
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Consider that 300 years ago, the murders by the lunatic fundies in Massachusetts had a direct effect on the Constitution, but the religion of the OP has yet to separate the voodoo world from the real world, the fundies in that religion are a viable threat today.

19th June 2012, 06:00 PM	#87
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by ANTPogo Anything terrible you can say about Islam, you can say about Christianity. Any terrible thing that a Muslim has done in the name of his religion, a Christian has done in the name of his. The long, violent history of both runs parallel. And it is very sloppy thinking to paint everyone from a faith with the same brush. In medieval Japan there was a whole class of warrior monks made up of Buddhists - So by default all Buddhist are militarist fundamentalists Quote: It's odd how many self-proclaimed atheists get so upset when it's pointed out just how alike Islam and Christianity really are (and not just when it comes to the bad parts, either). Whenever I have spoken to followers of Islam I always think back to Enemy Mine and how two completely different Holy books said virtually the same thing

19th June 2012, 06:38 PM	#89
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by ANTPogo I find it almost bizarre that people who understand the vast gulfs between Evangelicals, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Catholics in Christianity nevertheless think that a Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim. One of my hobbies is reading the various intra-Islamic polemics, where Shia apologists point out how incorrect the beliefs of the Wahhabiyya are and how their canonical hadith collections are ridiculously wrong, or how Turkish Sunnis accuse the Pakistani followers of Maududi (also a Sunni) are totally off base, or how (sadly) everyone seems to enjoy kicking the Ahmadiyya. Yet every single one of them quotes from the exact same Qur'an. And every time I see a Christian (cultural Christian or believing Christian) try to claim that Yahweh and Allah aren't the same god at all and the two religions have nothing whatsoever to do with each other, I think about all the mentions and stories of Abraham and Noah and Moses and Jesus in the Qur'an, and roll my eyes. . The noisiest devotees of any of these will not recognize their commonality, ever!

19th June 2012, 11:34 PM	#91
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,651	Originally Posted by rwguinn Since the rest of them tolerate, rather than condemn, their actions. what a failure
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

19th June 2012, 11:38 PM	#92
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,651	Originally Posted by Toontown Yeah. That's it. It's because Christianity is always treated with the utmost respect, and only mainstream Christian views are presented. you mean like when catholic priests abused kids, media and also here most people said that catholic priests have abused kids instead of saying christian priests or even christians in general abused kids?
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

20th June 2012, 08:44 AM	#93
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,128	Originally Posted by ANTPogo Noted Islam apologist President George W. Bush called it that, while speaking at the Islamic Center of Washington DC, less than a week after the 9/11 attacks. So, if a twit like "W", who isn't a Muslim, calls it a religion of peace, that's the same a Islam billing itself a religion of peace?
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,128

20th June 2012, 09:52 AM	#94
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge Posts: 14,393	Originally Posted by ANTPogo Anything terrible you can say about Islam, you can say about Christianity. Any terrible thing that a Muslim has done in the name of his religion, a Christian has done in the name of his. The long, violent history of both runs parallel. It's odd how many self-proclaimed atheists get so upset when it's pointed out just how alike Islam and Christianity really are (and not just when it comes to the bad parts, either). Just look at the genocide of some 800,000 people that took place in Rwanda. That's a country that is 98% Christian. It seems to me that the actions of any particular group have a lot less to do with the identity of its religion than the wealth and stability of its culture.
	__________________ It looks just like a Telefunken U47... You'll love it.

20th June 2012, 10:00 AM	#95
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge Posts: 14,393	Originally Posted by ANTPogo And every time I see a Christian (cultural Christian or believing Christian) try to claim that Yahweh and Allah aren't the same god at all and the two religions have nothing whatsoever to do with each other, I think about all the mentions and stories of Abraham and Noah and Moses and Jesus in the Qur'an, and roll my eyes. Slightly off topic, but I once heard a Christian declare that the Muslim god wasn't really the same as his because they followed a false prophet. He was rather offended when I pointed out that most Jews view Christianity in exactly the same way.
	__________________ It looks just like a Telefunken U47... You'll love it.

20th June 2012, 02:41 PM	#96
westprog Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,928	Originally Posted by Corsair 115 The key words in the above that are worth noting are "specifically targeting". Those two words immediately render any subsequent discussion very much into a world of murky grey. For example, one can say that, no, they were not specifically targeting civilians when a bomb was dropped into the middle of a market to get a high-value target. That several dozen civilians were killed in the process was just unfortunate collateral damage. But that very point raises the sticky question: just how many civilian deaths are acceptable in a strike against a high-value target? Ten? A hundred? A thousand? Where is the line drawn, and how? There are no easy answers. It's a complicated, messy set of scenarios. Bear in mind that the civilians may be in a country with which the USA is not at war, and which has not given them permission to carry out the attack. They may have nothing to do with the target apart from physical proximity. The potential lives saved by eliminating the target might be greatly in excess of those cost by taking him out, or they might not. It's a difficult one to judge. What is fairly clear is that if anyone carried out such an action against the USA, even if no civilians were hurt, even if an active terrorist were targetted, the response would not be indulgent.
westprog Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,928	__________________ Dreary whiner, who gradually outwore his welcome, before blowing it entirely.

20th June 2012, 02:56 PM	#97
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by Foster Zygote Just look at the genocide of some 800,000 people that took place in Rwanda. That's a country that is 98% Christian. It seems to me that the actions of any particular group have a lot less to do with the identity of its religion than the wealth and stability of its culture. When you have people of the same religion you have to default to something else to demonise them with. In this case it was the ethnic card played

20th June 2012, 04:35 PM	#98
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	Originally Posted by DC you mean like when catholic priests abused kids, media and also here most people said that catholic priests have abused kids instead of saying christian priests or even christians in general abused kids? Oh, you want to play little games, do you? OK...you've said something critical of Christians. Now say something critical of Muslims. (crickets) Can't do it, can you.
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	__________________ SEARCH NOW THE SPHERES PROBE THE UNIVERSE SEND BACK WORD WHAT FORCE SO IRRESISTIBLE AS THE WILL OF FREE MEN

20th June 2012, 05:45 PM	#99
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,364	Originally Posted by Toontown Oh, you want to play little games, do you? OK...you've said something critical of Christians. Now say something critical of Muslims. (crickets) Can't do it, can you. I can. Quote: I've read various attempts at justifying this [a man being easily able to divorce a woman, but the near-impossibility of the reverse], but none of it (nor the various inferior methods a woman can try to obtain a divorce) can disguise the essentially misogynistic, patriarchal nature and origin of divorce in general under shariah. Happy now, Toontown?
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris

21st June 2012, 09:41 AM	#100
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	Originally Posted by ANTPogo I can. Happy now, Toontown? Great. Here comes the Muslim-critical cavalry, just in the nick of time. Frankly, I could be happier, since my request was not addressed to you. But I suppose, in the realm of ideologically motivated selective religion criticism, you take what you can get.
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	__________________ SEARCH NOW THE SPHERES PROBE THE UNIVERSE SEND BACK WORD WHAT FORCE SO IRRESISTIBLE AS THE WILL OF FREE MEN Last edited by Toontown; 21st June 2012 at 09:43 AM.

21st June 2012, 09:45 AM	#101
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,808	sigh I know lots of Christians, but don't get to spend much time with them. Know why? ~They're always out protesting some stupid, offensive thing other Christians have said or done, raising their voices so that media in other countries take notice of how badly they feel that a small number of Christians have hijacked their religion.
	__________________ _{The membership of this forum is henceforth to refer to me as potato-headed Bobby} _{SSKCAS, member in long standing}

22nd June 2012, 10:18 PM	#102
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,651	Originally Posted by Toontown Oh, you want to play little games, do you? OK...you've said something critical of Christians. Now say something critical of Muslims. (crickets) Can't do it, can you. what? i said nothing critical about Christians. i said something critical about Catholic priests. the only critical thing i can say about muslims in general is that they have a silly believe in some old fairytales about some alleged god creating everything there is. laughable stuff.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

23rd June 2012, 12:35 AM	#103
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost sigh I know lots of Christians, but don't get to spend much time with them. Know why? ~They're always out protesting some stupid, offensive thing other Christians have said or done, raising their voices so that media in other countries take notice of how badly they feel that a small number of Christians have hijacked their religion. http://www.towleroad.com/2010/07/chr...n-chicago.html
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	__________________ "It probably came from a sticky dark planet far, far away." - Godzilla versus Hedora "There's no evidence that the 9-11 attacks (whoever did them) were deliberately attacking civilians. On the contrary the targets appear to have been chosen as military." -DavidByron

23rd June 2012, 11:28 PM	#104
KevinCanada Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 183	Originally Posted by baron I know, but that's not really my point. The diversionary tactics are always applied to Islamic topics, never any other religion, so much so that you can bet the second post in any Islamic thread will be attempting to drag the topic OT. I have a healthy dislike for all Abrahamic religions and many others too, but I that doesn't prevent me speaking out when people attempt this phony apologist nonsense at every turn. Yes but other religions frankly all of them are not running around blowing people up and chanting god is great. this is why islamists get special attention.
KevinCanada Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 183

23rd June 2012, 11:40 PM	#105
KevinCanada Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 183	Originally Posted by ANTPogo I find it almost bizarre that people who understand the vast gulfs between Evangelicals, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, and Unitarian Universalists in Christianity nevertheless think that a Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim. One of my hobbies is reading the various intra-Islamic polemics, where Shia apologists point out how incorrect the beliefs of the Wahhabiyya are and how their canonical hadith collections are ridiculously wrong, or how Turkish Sunnis accuse the Pakistani followers of Maududi (also a Sunni) of being totally off base, or how (sadly) everyone seems to enjoy kicking the Ahmadiyya. Yet every single one of them quotes from the exact same Qur'an. And every time I see a Christian (cultural Christian or believing Christian) try to claim that Yahweh and Allah aren't the same god at all and the two religions have nothing whatsoever to do with each other, I think about all the mentions and stories of Abraham and Noah and Moses and Jesus in the Qur'an, and roll my eyes. The Sunni and Shia, Difference goes beyond the Quran, so when they quote they are reading the context differently. Same applies to the Christians saying the Gods are not the same. They maybe the same to you due to context. But to the Christian, and Muslim, they are very different beings, Again it goes back to differences beyond the actual word written in those two books. I think back to my high school days and a grade 10 English assignment, It was a novel study, 20 to 30 kids in the class had to read out loud their notes of what they believed the book meant and cite context sources to support those beliefs. Every single student had it's own spin on the the book. The words didn't change, but the circumstances in which the material was read and mentally absorbed did along with the environment it was read in.
KevinCanada Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 183