ADD/ADHD: real or ************?

bumlet5 · 21st June 2012, 06:32 PM

I recently had a short conversation with some one close to me (I'l call him Joe) that was disturbing.

I have a friend who was recently diagnosed with Asbergers. He tends to be one who seems to like attention due to things out of his control (very slight Munchausen's maybe?), and I said to Joe that I don't know how to respond to my friend because I don't know if he read a Wikipedia article and self-diagnosed or if he went to a doctor and was officially diagnosed. It not that I don't believe him, but I am skeptical of how this conclusion was reached. Somehow ADD came up and the connection was made between that and self-diagnosis.

This was followed by a knowing look in my direction.

Apparently Joe thinks that ADD is a fake disorder for people who don't want to take control of their kids or (in adult cases) their own responsibilities. This made me

.

I was clinically diagnosed when I was 6. I took medication for it until I hit high school, when the peer pressure of being teased for going to the nurse every day for drugs was not something I wanted to deal with. My mom conceded after pleading, and high school sucked partly because of this. In my adult life I mostly have it under control but it does rear its ugly head in certain situations, almost like an accent getting heavier with drunkenness. Apparently Joe thinks I self-diagnosed and every mention is followed by a

when I turn my head.

To me this is like telling an autistic person that they just have no people skills or a dyslexic person that they're just stupid or a bipolar person that they're just crazy. It hurts.

I haven't told Joe that I am hurt yet. I don't really know how. Any suggestions on where I go from here? (any links that I could give Joe would be appreciated. I havent even started looking)

Also, what do you think of ADD/ADHD?

Jodie · 21st June 2012, 06:56 PM

I think ADD is a symptom, not a disorder, of changes in our lifestyles over the last 40-50 years. People used to be able to let their children run outside from dawn until dusk but those days are over. Back then it didn't exist, and because of the culture, probably not noticed.

Google is your friend, there is so much out there about ADD. Personally, if my friend was rolling his eyes at me I believe I would be more than a little hurt. I would have said something to him about it the first time I saw it happen, and it would have been the last time it would have happened.

Hercules Rockefeller · 21st June 2012, 11:45 PM

I was diagnosed with ADD at the tender age of 34. I was in complete disbelief until I started reading some cases. It was like someone had been taking notes of my entire life.

mike3 · 22nd June 2012, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by Jodie

I think ADD is a symptom, not a disorder, of changes in our lifestyles over the last 40-50 years. People used to be able to let their children run outside from dawn until dusk but those days are over. Back then it didn't exist, and because of the culture, probably not noticed.

Google is your friend, there is so much out there about ADD. Personally, if my friend was rolling his eyes at me I believe I would be more than a little hurt. I would have said something to him about it the first time I saw it happen, and it would have been the last time it would have happened.

Do you think these changes are evil? Do you think the past was good and the present is bad, and the future will be terrible?

Stomatopoda · 22nd June 2012, 01:45 AM

Exists? Almost certainly. Disorder? Not sure. In my (completely unqualified) opinion, it seems that more and more personality traits are being labeled disorders. We're getting closer and closer to labeling moderate introversion as high-functioning autism...

Belz... · 22nd June 2012, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by bumlet5

Apparently Joe thinks that ADD is a fake disorder for people who don't want to take control of their kids or (in adult cases) their own responsibilities. This made me

.

Black and white thinking. He probably started by thinking it was over-diagnosed but the concept was too complex so he moved to "entirely fake". It's simpler that way.

Dancing David · 22nd June 2012, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by Stomatopoda

Exists? Almost certainly. Disorder? Not sure. In my (completely unqualified) opinion, it seems that more and more personality traits are being labeled disorders. We're getting closer and closer to labeling moderate introversion as high-functioning autism...

Wow, this is an argument from ignorance, do you actually know anything about how either is assessed and diagnosed, or is this just arm chair philosophy?

Autism in no way is introversion, that is just plain silly. ADHD is not a personality trait, whatever the twaddle that is.

How many people do you know whose personality becomes more focused and coherent when they are administered stimulants?

Do you actually know anything about high functioning autism or just what you read somewhere?

So the basis for your conclusions, other than ignorance is?

CosmicDP · 22nd June 2012, 06:23 AM

ADD is real and it's increasing. The number of people with applied diligence disorder has been rising dramatically in recent years.

Weak Kitten · 22nd June 2012, 06:41 AM

I do find the chemical reaction to stimulants, including caffeine, to be proof that it is not a made up disorder. Anything that is a detectable brain chemical difference is a real disorder.

Yes, some use ADD as an excuse to not take charge of their own lives. Others work so hard to control it that no one would believe that they have the disorder. That does not mean that the disorder does not exist, it simply means that when properly controlled those who suffer it can live normal lives.

Belz... · 22nd June 2012, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Wow, this is an argument from ignorance, do you actually know anything about how either is assessed and diagnosed, or is this just arm chair philosophy?

Autism in no way is introversion, that is just plain silly. ADHD is not a personality trait, whatever the twaddle that is.

How many people do you know whose personality becomes more focused and coherent when they are administered stimulants?

Do you actually know anything about high functioning autism or just what you read somewhere?

So the basis for your conclusions, other than ignorance is?

My only concern is that it's over-diagnosed.

Woolgatherer · 22nd June 2012, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

My only concern is that it's over-diagnosed.

If my kid was diagnosed with it I would like a second or third opinion.

KingMerv00 · 22nd June 2012, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by Stomatopoda

Exists? Almost certainly. Disorder? Not sure. In my (completely unqualified) opinion, it seems that more and more personality traits are being labeled disorders. We're getting closer and closer to labeling moderate introversion as high-functioning autism...

A "disorder" is something that causes unwanted disruption of the patient's life. As someone diagnosed with ADHD (primarily inattentive) in my late 20's, I will tell you it absolutely IS a disorder. If you still disagree, feel free to explain how difficulty reading is a "personality trait".

Links from Dr. Novella:
Evidence for the existence of ADHD
Mental illness denial and "disorders"

KingMerv00 · 22nd June 2012, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

My only concern is that it's over-diagnosed.

Originally Posted by Woolgatherer

If my kid was diagnosed with it I would like a second or third opinion.

These fears are understandable. Do we have evidence that ADHD is over (or even under) diagnosed?

Belz... · 22nd June 2012, 09:08 AM

My post may have been poorly worded. I am concerned that it may be over-diagnosed. Evidence would be nice, yes.

KingMerv00 · 22nd June 2012, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

My post may have been poorly worded. I am concerned that it may be over-diagnosed. Evidence would be nice, yes.

I don't think it was poorly worded. I certainly didn't think you were being insulting.

There real issue is where does that concern come from and is it founded in objective fact?

truethat · 22nd June 2012, 10:44 AM

Working with Special Education for 4 years now I can say that I have first hand seen people try to get their kids diagnosed with "anything" so they can get services for their kids. Ex. I had my son diagnosed as ADD. He's not on medications and I have him labled so he qualifies for CTT and intervention services in his school.

I want these services and don't want to pay for them and as long as he is diagnosed he gets it. (I think they may have changed his disability to learning disabled though)

I have a friend who told me for years about the hard traumas of raising her autistic son. When I met him I thought he must be another son because the kid is definitely not autistic and she sort of revealed later that once he got diagnosed he qualified under IDEA law and FAPE for tuition at this very expensive private school.

I know plenty of women with kids that are probably diagnosed like this. I also have plenty of stories where parents don't want the kids labeled so they refuse services the kid needs etc.

I think it is definitely over diagnosed in schools. I don't think it's over diagnosed medically though.

RhodyDave · 22nd June 2012, 10:56 AM

Yes it's real. I'm the father of a person who was medically diagnosed as ADD (no H, in his case). In the process of taking him to doctors over the years while this diagnosis was being discovered, I found that I was/am almost exactly as he is. I suffered terribly with school and any tasks that weren't in my 'sweet spot' of interest.

Seeing the benefits of his diagnosis and subsequent medication, the differences are like night and day. He's getting very good grades, is able to focus and most importantly LEARN.

Whether it's diagnosed in the 'right' amount is not the issue. What's important is that in many cases, the diagnosis and treatment of ADD/HD has life-changing implications.

NoahFence · 22nd June 2012, 11:03 AM

My doctor said you're born with ADD.

I thought I could be developing it due to my severe Tinnitus. Terrible sleeping coupled with the incessant ringing led me to taking some online questionaire, I checked off pretty much everything and convinced myself I had ADD. Inabilty to concentrate, irritiability, etc..etc..etc...

But apparently you can't "contract" ADD. So now I'm just a dumbass.

KingMerv00 · 22nd June 2012, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by NoahFence

I thought I could be developing it due to my severe Tinnitus. Terrible sleeping coupled with the incessant ringing led me to taking some online questionaire, I checked off pretty much everything and convinced myself I had ADD. Inabilty to concentrate, irritiability, etc..etc..etc...

But apparently you can't "contract" ADD. So now I'm just a dumbass.

I've never heard of "irritiability" listed as a symptom.

For those interested the DSM criteria are here. Checklists are poor measures in isolation.

Jodie · 22nd June 2012, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by mike3

Do you think these changes are evil? Do you think the past was good and the present is bad, and the future will be terrible?

Evil would not be the word I would use for it, whether we learn from a book or a computer it still amounts to reading, paying attention, and following the status quo when it comes to educational content and behavioral expectations for the child. I assume that is what you mean by asking about the past, present, and future.

I do think rather than just throwing a diagnosis on a child and placing them on medication, that a more thorough exam could be done.

If certain things in the child's environment can be altered to prevent medicating unnecessarily then I think those things should be attempted if feasible.

Perhaps rethinking how we educate our children with the expectation that they sit still for extended lengths of time and that we all stick to the same generic curriculum is in order.

Ray Brady · 22nd June 2012, 06:31 PM

As a lifelong sufferer of Attention Surplus Syndrome, my primary hope is that we will someday find a better acronym.

Jodie · 22nd June 2012, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by RhodyDave

Yes it's real. I'm the father of a person who was medically diagnosed as ADD (no H, in his case). In the process of taking him to doctors over the years while this diagnosis was being discovered, I found that I was/am almost exactly as he is. I suffered terribly with school and any tasks that weren't in my 'sweet spot' of interest.

Seeing the benefits of his diagnosis and subsequent medication, the differences are like night and day. He's getting very good grades, is able to focus and most importantly LEARN.

Whether it's diagnosed in the 'right' amount is not the issue. What's important is that in many cases, the diagnosis and treatment of ADD/HD has life-changing implications.

My son had the same problem, he was diagnosed in middle school but none of the medications worked for him. We continued to try different brands each with horrible side affects, mainly insomnia.

When he was 15 his blood pressure was elevated on a physical exam we were getting for applying for membership at a fitness center. He had blood work done and his HgbA1C was 450, he had converted to type two diabetes.

No one in my family was ever diagnosed with type two diabetes at such a young age. Upon researching the medications, I learned that there was a connection between insomnia, resulting elevated cortisol level, and the onset of diabetes.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1003080419.htm

I caution anyone whose child is given this diagnosis to pay very close attention to the side effects. I would rather have a absent minded son than one with diabetes, it was only a fluke that we found out he had it before it became a crisis situation. The subsequent health problems related to diabetes will be a concern for the rest of his life.

bumlet5 · 22nd June 2012, 09:49 PM

Please correct me if my interpretations are wrong.

Originally Posted by Jodie

I do think rather than just throwing a diagnosis on a child and placing them on medication, that a more thorough exam could be done.

To me this sounds like you think the process for clinically diagnosing ADD is minimal. What do you think the process involves?

Quote:

If certain things in the child's environment can be altered to prevent medicating unnecessarily then I think those things should be attempted if feasible.

Perhaps rethinking how we educate our children with the expectation that they sit still for extended lengths of time and that we all stick to the same generic curriculum is in order.

Do you think that ADH(in this case)D behavior is just kids being kids?

stilicho · 22nd June 2012, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by bumlet5

....

Also, what do you think of ADD/ADHD?

Isn't it a subset of other mental illnesses? Is it possible that weak forms of neuroses and psychoses are "downgraded" to avoid the expense of treatment and safe removal of the "sufferers" from the general population?

jiggeryqua · 23rd June 2012, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by bumlet5

I have a friend who was recently diagnosed with Asbergers.

I don't know much about ADD/ADHD, but I am intimately familiar with Aspergers (not self-diagnosed, though I know there's a lot of that going on). It's an easy mistake to make, I know, but it's turned into 'Ass Burgers' often enough that I'd plead with you to make every effort to update your internal dictionary.

Dancing David · 23rd June 2012, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

My only concern is that it's over-diagnosed.

Which is a different issue, the first line should always be environmental and behavioral changes, then medication should be considered.

Dancing David · 23rd June 2012, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Woolgatherer

If my kid was diagnosed with it I would like a second or third opinion.

Exactly, teachers are not trained in assessments. It takes quite a bit of data, including observation and time/behavior studies to make a good assessment. It is important that the disorder shows in all environments.

You can tell a lot by when the child can appear to focus.

Dancing David · 23rd June 2012, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Jodie

If certain things in the child's environment can be altered to prevent medicating unnecessarily then I think those things should be attempted if feasible.

.

That is best practice, behavioral and environmental changes are always the first line of action.

Dancing David · 23rd June 2012, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by Jodie

My son had the same problem, he was diagnosed in middle school but none of the medications worked for him. We continued to try different brands each with horrible side affects, mainly insomnia.

Then most likely he does not have ADHD, at least the doctors I knew felt that way. They should have done more extensive psychological and neurological evaluations.

If the medications are not working then a change is diagnosis is indicated. there are so many things that look like ADD, especially some of the more interesting learning disorders. Depression in particular, after the LDs is often a good one to look at.

Dancing David · 23rd June 2012, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by stilicho

Isn't it a subset of other mental illnesses? Is it possible that weak forms of neuroses and psychoses are "downgraded" to avoid the expense of treatment and safe removal of the "sufferers" from the general population?

Hi, neurosis is a term largely no longer used as it is not useful. Psychosis is not anything like ADHD. Who removes people from the general population, that is no longer the case here in the US.

quadraginta · 23rd June 2012, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Woolgatherer

If my kid was diagnosed with it I would like a second or third opinion.

If they were diagnosed with only one opinion it wouldn't have been done right to begin with.

quadraginta · 23rd June 2012, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by truethat

Working with Special Education for 4 years now I can say that I have first hand seen people try to get their kids diagnosed with "anything" so they can get services for their kids. Ex. I had my son diagnosed as ADD. He's not on medications and I have him labled so he qualifies for CTT and intervention services in his school.

I want these services and don't want to pay for them and as long as he is diagnosed he gets it. (I think they may have changed his disability to learning disabled though)

I have a friend who told me for years about the hard traumas of raising her autistic son. When I met him I thought he must be another son because the kid is definitely not autistic and she sort of revealed later that once he got diagnosed he qualified under IDEA law and FAPE for tuition at this very expensive private school.

I know plenty of women with kids that are probably diagnosed like this. I also have plenty of stories where parents don't want the kids labeled so they refuse services the kid needs etc.

I think it is definitely over diagnosed in schools. I don't think it's over diagnosed medically though.

That last sentence is disturbing. It seems to suggest that you are in a school environment which diagnoses children without the involvement of the medical community. If that is the case then I am unsurprised the results are less than satisfactory.

As to your first point, there are always people who try to take undeserved advantage of social support programs (or any pool of money, for that matter.) This does not mean that the programs are not useful, or that the problems they address do not exist.

Most of the time I see someone trying to conflate these issues it is to imply that this is evidence that the illnesses or the goals of the programs are somehow at fault for the abuse of the system.

They aren't.

Jodie · 23rd June 2012, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by bumlet5

Please correct me if my interpretations are wrong.
To me this sounds like you think the process for clinically diagnosing ADD is minimal. What do you think the process involves?

Do you think that ADH(in this case)D behavior is just kids being kids?

From what I experienced it is all anecdotal with other people, teachers mainly, that validate the observations. There is no blood work or concrete physical test to diagnose this condition. If the condition is real, like any other condition, it would exist on a continuum of severity, and the amount of severity is subjective. In my son's case, it may have been kids being kids, or their might have been an underlying issue not diagnosed.

He is 24 now and majoring in physics even though I could not get him to open an Algebra book in middle school. He was recently diagnosed with an anxiety disorder and has had three panic attacks in the last five years that I know about. The anxiety could have played into the chronic insomnia although it is also a side effect of ADD meds. He remains unmedicated and tries to deal with it on his own terms although at this point, I think medication would be warranted, to prevent the attacks from being more frequent as he gets older. There is no such thing as a stress free life.

quadraginta · 23rd June 2012, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by RhodyDave

Yes it's real. I'm the father of a person who was medically diagnosed as ADD (no H, in his case). In the process of taking him to doctors over the years while this diagnosis was being discovered, I found that I was/am almost exactly as he is. I suffered terribly with school and any tasks that weren't in my 'sweet spot' of interest.

Seeing the benefits of his diagnosis and subsequent medication, the differences are like night and day. He's getting very good grades, is able to focus and most importantly LEARN.

Whether it's diagnosed in the 'right' amount is not the issue. What's important is that in many cases, the diagnosis and treatment of ADD/HD has life-changing implications.

My family had much the same experience. My son was diagnosed in the Eighties, before there was an "H", and before it had become fashionable to disparage the disease. After many months of involvement by family, teachers, and physicians of several disciplines he was prescribed a minute quantity of Dexedrine, once a day.

It was as though someone had flipped a switch. He went on to perform well in school and athletics, and later to finish college.

He managed to get along without meds after a while, but to this day (a couple of decades later) his coffee budget remains prodigious.

Professor Yaffle · 23rd June 2012, 10:21 AM

Well I know its isn't diagnosed willy-nilly in the UK. Kids with symptoms are referred either by their GP, or by a school nurse, to a child and adolescent mental health team. They then have to be assessed in several settings to make sure its not a situational problem. First line treatment will usually be family/parental intervention - ie training the parents better strategies for managing the behaviour, and if possible behavioural intervention by specially trained teachers at the school. Only in more severe cases, where this intervention isn't sufficient, will drug treatment be used in addition.

Here are the NICE guidelines:

http://www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/pdf/CG72QRG.pdf

Dancing David · 23rd June 2012, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

That last sentence is disturbing. It seems to suggest that you are in a school environment which diagnoses children without the involvement of the medical community.

School psychologists can not prescribe medications, not can school social workers. Neither can diagnose.

In Illinois, ADHD will not qualify you for special education services unless your academic performance does not meet yur test scores. It will qualify you for OHI (Other Health Impairment) and under a 504 plan you can sort of get SPED services, but compared to the other SPED students ADHD is a small fraction of SPED students.

temporalillusion · 23rd June 2012, 03:01 PM

I just wanted to say thanks for your posts in this thread Dancing David.

quadraginta · 24th June 2012, 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

School psychologists can not prescribe medications, not can school social workers. Neither can diagnose.

This is the situation as I understand it, which is why I found the apparent alternatives truethat seemed to be describing to be problematic.

Originally Posted by truethat

<snip>

I think it is definitely over diagnosed in schools. I don't think it's over diagnosed medically though.

I'm not sure how it can be over-diagnosed in the schools without it being diagnosed there to begin with, and there is a clear dichotomy between that and diagnosis by medical professionals implied in the statement.

Perhaps I misunderstood what was being said there. If so, my bad.

Quote:

In Illinois, ADHD will not qualify you for special education services unless your academic performance does not meet yur test scores. It will qualify you for OHI (Other Health Impairment) and under a 504 plan you can sort of get SPED services, but compared to the other SPED students ADHD is a small fraction of SPED students.

I am reminded of the hype and hysteria that frequently accompanies condemnation of other social support systems, like foodstamps and Medicaid, where, when you drill down below the surface of all the lurid, alarmist reports of abuse and fraud it turns out that the systems are generally working about as well as can be expected from any real world p.o.v.

Dancing David · 24th June 2012, 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by temporalillusion

I just wanted to say thanks for your posts in this thread Dancing David.

My wife is a school social worker, I know more about adult mental health, and computers.

Teachers, well they are teachers, they have a very difficult job, I do not think I could do it. But their views of student behavior are based upon their constant exposure. So they tend to have biases. But I have seen the students who vibrate in place.

Rolfe · 24th June 2012, 03:15 PM

A colleague of mine has a young son who was diagnosed fairly recently. This was a long process, and they didn't give him the diagnosis until they'd done a lot of testing and tried this and that behavioural therapy. She was very resistant to the idea of his being medicated (why I don't know because she lives on Prozac). In the end she gave in and said, OK, but if it isn't a miracle cure we're not continuing with it.

It was a miracle cure.

I don't see any evidence of its being over-diagnosed round here, but I don't know how things might be in the wilds of Merika....

Rolfe.

Yes, ADD/ADHD is a real disorder.	32	32.65%
No, ADD/ADHD is a fake disorder.	6	6.12%
ADD/ADHD is a real disorder, but it is over diagnosed.	47	47.96%
I don't know.	13	13.27%
Voters: 98. You may not vote on this poll

21st June 2012, 06:32 PM	#1
bumlet5 Indescribable Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The dark recesses of my imagination. Posts: 4,212	ADD/ADHD: real or ********? I recently had a short conversation with some one close to me (I'l call him Joe) that was disturbing. I have a friend who was recently diagnosed with Asbergers. He tends to be one who seems to like attention due to things out of his control (very slight Munchausen's maybe?), and I said to Joe that I don't know how to respond to my friend because I don't know if he read a Wikipedia article and self-diagnosed or if he went to a doctor and was officially diagnosed. It not that I don't believe him, but I am skeptical of how this conclusion was reached. Somehow ADD came up and the connection was made between that and self-diagnosis. This was followed by a knowing look in my direction. Apparently Joe thinks that ADD is a fake disorder for people who don't want to take control of their kids or (in adult cases) their own responsibilities. This made me . I was clinically diagnosed when I was 6. I took medication for it until I hit high school, when the peer pressure of being teased for going to the nurse every day for drugs was not something I wanted to deal with. My mom conceded after pleading, and high school sucked partly because of this. In my adult life I mostly have it under control but it does rear its ugly head in certain situations, almost like an accent getting heavier with drunkenness. Apparently Joe thinks I self-diagnosed and every mention is followed by a when I turn my head. To me this is like telling an autistic person that they just have no people skills or a dyslexic person that they're just stupid or a bipolar person that they're just crazy. It hurts. I haven't told Joe that I am hurt yet. I don't really know how. Any suggestions on where I go from here? (any links that I could give Joe would be appreciated. I havent even started looking) Also, what do you think of ADD/ADHD?
	__________________ "I'm a soundwave tsunami, vocal origami, hijack the mic and it's not like anyone could stop me." -mc chris "I've seen so much death" <("<) (>")> <("<) (>")> <("<) (>")> -Nathan Fillion

21st June 2012, 06:56 PM	#2
Jodie Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,909	I think ADD is a symptom, not a disorder, of changes in our lifestyles over the last 40-50 years. People used to be able to let their children run outside from dawn until dusk but those days are over. Back then it didn't exist, and because of the culture, probably not noticed. Google is your friend, there is so much out there about ADD. Personally, if my friend was rolling his eyes at me I believe I would be more than a little hurt. I would have said something to him about it the first time I saw it happen, and it would have been the last time it would have happened.
Jodie Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,909

21st June 2012, 11:45 PM	#3
Hercules Rockefeller Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Ponylandistan Posts: 1,390	I was diagnosed with ADD at the tender age of 34. I was in complete disbelief until I started reading some cases. It was like someone had been taking notes of my entire life.
	__________________ Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra

22nd June 2012, 12:10 AM	#4
mike3 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,946	Originally Posted by Jodie I think ADD is a symptom, not a disorder, of changes in our lifestyles over the last 40-50 years. People used to be able to let their children run outside from dawn until dusk but those days are over. Back then it didn't exist, and because of the culture, probably not noticed. Google is your friend, there is so much out there about ADD. Personally, if my friend was rolling his eyes at me I believe I would be more than a little hurt. I would have said something to him about it the first time I saw it happen, and it would have been the last time it would have happened. Do you think these changes are evil? Do you think the past was good and the present is bad, and the future will be terrible?
mike3 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,946	__________________ “Ego is subversive and devolutionary, truly destructive and terrible; ego is the generator of privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Ego is the fire that burns within the pit of hell, devouring and cosuming everything that enters and leaving utterly nothing behind. Ego is horrible, cruel, and restraining, the darkness of the world, and the doom and bane of man.” – a reaction to that famous Bertrand Russell quote.

22nd June 2012, 01:45 AM	#5
Stomatopoda Muse Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 861	Exists? Almost certainly. Disorder? Not sure. In my (completely unqualified) opinion, it seems that more and more personality traits are being labeled disorders. We're getting closer and closer to labeling moderate introversion as high-functioning autism...
Stomatopoda Muse Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 861

22nd June 2012, 04:42 AM	#6
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,531	Originally Posted by bumlet5 Apparently Joe thinks that ADD is a fake disorder for people who don't want to take control of their kids or (in adult cases) their own responsibilities. This made me . Black and white thinking. He probably started by thinking it was over-diagnosed but the concept was too complex so he moved to "entirely fake". It's simpler that way.
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

22nd June 2012, 05:48 AM	#7
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,729	Originally Posted by Stomatopoda Exists? Almost certainly. Disorder? Not sure. In my (completely unqualified) opinion, it seems that more and more personality traits are being labeled disorders. We're getting closer and closer to labeling moderate introversion as high-functioning autism... Wow, this is an argument from ignorance, do you actually know anything about how either is assessed and diagnosed, or is this just arm chair philosophy? Autism in no way is introversion, that is just plain silly. ADHD is not a personality trait, whatever the twaddle that is. How many people do you know whose personality becomes more focused and coherent when they are administered stimulants? Do you actually know anything about high functioning autism or just what you read somewhere? So the basis for your conclusions, other than ignorance is?
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Last edited by Dancing David; 22nd June 2012 at 05:50 AM.

22nd June 2012, 06:23 AM	#8
CosmicDP Thinker Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Holiday Inn Express Posts: 165	ADD is real and it's increasing. The number of people with applied diligence disorder has been rising dramatically in recent years.

22nd June 2012, 06:41 AM	#9
Weak Kitten Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lost and lonely...will you be my friend? Posts: 1,728	I do find the chemical reaction to stimulants, including caffeine, to be proof that it is not a made up disorder. Anything that is a detectable brain chemical difference is a real disorder. Yes, some use ADD as an excuse to not take charge of their own lives. Others work so hard to control it that no one would believe that they have the disorder. That does not mean that the disorder does not exist, it simply means that when properly controlled those who suffer it can live normal lives.
	__________________ A quick reminder to all participants that although incomprehensibility is not against the Membership Agreement, incivility is. Please try and remember this, and keep your exchanges polite and respectful. -arthwollipot

22nd June 2012, 06:43 AM	#10
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,531	Originally Posted by Dancing David Wow, this is an argument from ignorance, do you actually know anything about how either is assessed and diagnosed, or is this just arm chair philosophy? Autism in no way is introversion, that is just plain silly. ADHD is not a personality trait, whatever the twaddle that is. How many people do you know whose personality becomes more focused and coherent when they are administered stimulants? Do you actually know anything about high functioning autism or just what you read somewhere? So the basis for your conclusions, other than ignorance is? My only concern is that it's over-diagnosed.
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

22nd June 2012, 07:20 AM	#11
Woolgatherer Muse Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 889	Originally Posted by Belz... My only concern is that it's over-diagnosed. If my kid was diagnosed with it I would like a second or third opinion.
Woolgatherer Muse Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 889	__________________ Formerly known as N.Texas

22nd June 2012, 07:29 AM	#12
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	Originally Posted by Stomatopoda Exists? Almost certainly. Disorder? Not sure. In my (completely unqualified) opinion, it seems that more and more personality traits are being labeled disorders. We're getting closer and closer to labeling moderate introversion as high-functioning autism... A "disorder" is something that causes unwanted disruption of the patient's life. As someone diagnosed with ADHD (primarily inattentive) in my late 20's, I will tell you it absolutely IS a disorder. If you still disagree, feel free to explain how difficulty reading is a "personality trait". Links from Dr. Novella: Evidence for the existence of ADHD Mental illness denial and "disorders"
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust?

22nd June 2012, 07:31 AM	#13
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	Originally Posted by Belz... My only concern is that it's over-diagnosed. Originally Posted by Woolgatherer If my kid was diagnosed with it I would like a second or third opinion. These fears are understandable. Do we have evidence that ADHD is over (or even under) diagnosed?
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust?

22nd June 2012, 09:08 AM	#14
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,531	My post may have been poorly worded. I am concerned that it may be over-diagnosed. Evidence would be nice, yes.
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

22nd June 2012, 10:34 AM	#15
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	Originally Posted by Belz... My post may have been poorly worded. I am concerned that it may be over-diagnosed. Evidence would be nice, yes. I don't think it was poorly worded. I certainly didn't think you were being insulting. There real issue is where does that concern come from and is it founded in objective fact?
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust?

22nd June 2012, 10:44 AM	#16
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,628	Working with Special Education for 4 years now I can say that I have first hand seen people try to get their kids diagnosed with "anything" so they can get services for their kids. Ex. I had my son diagnosed as ADD. He's not on medications and I have him labled so he qualifies for CTT and intervention services in his school. I want these services and don't want to pay for them and as long as he is diagnosed he gets it. (I think they may have changed his disability to learning disabled though) I have a friend who told me for years about the hard traumas of raising her autistic son. When I met him I thought he must be another son because the kid is definitely not autistic and she sort of revealed later that once he got diagnosed he qualified under IDEA law and FAPE for tuition at this very expensive private school. I know plenty of women with kids that are probably diagnosed like this. I also have plenty of stories where parents don't want the kids labeled so they refuse services the kid needs etc. I think it is definitely over diagnosed in schools. I don't think it's over diagnosed medically though.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,628	__________________ “Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain Last edited by truethat; 22nd June 2012 at 10:45 AM.

22nd June 2012, 10:56 AM	#17
RhodyDave Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Rhode Island, of course! Posts: 339	Yes it's real. I'm the father of a person who was medically diagnosed as ADD (no H, in his case). In the process of taking him to doctors over the years while this diagnosis was being discovered, I found that I was/am almost exactly as he is. I suffered terribly with school and any tasks that weren't in my 'sweet spot' of interest. Seeing the benefits of his diagnosis and subsequent medication, the differences are like night and day. He's getting very good grades, is able to focus and most importantly LEARN. Whether it's diagnosed in the 'right' amount is not the issue. What's important is that in many cases, the diagnosis and treatment of ADD/HD has life-changing implications.
	__________________ If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever - Woody Allen

22nd June 2012, 11:03 AM	#18
NoahFence Psycho Kitty Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Patriot Nation Posts: 9,329	My doctor said you're born with ADD. I thought I could be developing it due to my severe Tinnitus. Terrible sleeping coupled with the incessant ringing led me to taking some online questionaire, I checked off pretty much everything and convinced myself I had ADD. Inabilty to concentrate, irritiability, etc..etc..etc... But apparently you can't "contract" ADD. So now I'm just a dumbass.
	__________________ Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake. -Henry David Thoreau

22nd June 2012, 11:42 AM	#19
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	Originally Posted by NoahFence I thought I could be developing it due to my severe Tinnitus. Terrible sleeping coupled with the incessant ringing led me to taking some online questionaire, I checked off pretty much everything and convinced myself I had ADD. Inabilty to concentrate, irritiability, etc..etc..etc... But apparently you can't "contract" ADD. So now I'm just a dumbass. I've never heard of "irritiability" listed as a symptom. For those interested the DSM criteria are here. Checklists are poor measures in isolation.
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust?

22nd June 2012, 06:22 PM	#20
Jodie Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,909	Originally Posted by mike3 Do you think these changes are evil? Do you think the past was good and the present is bad, and the future will be terrible? Evil would not be the word I would use for it, whether we learn from a book or a computer it still amounts to reading, paying attention, and following the status quo when it comes to educational content and behavioral expectations for the child. I assume that is what you mean by asking about the past, present, and future. I do think rather than just throwing a diagnosis on a child and placing them on medication, that a more thorough exam could be done. If certain things in the child's environment can be altered to prevent medicating unnecessarily then I think those things should be attempted if feasible. Perhaps rethinking how we educate our children with the expectation that they sit still for extended lengths of time and that we all stick to the same generic curriculum is in order.
Jodie Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,909

22nd June 2012, 06:31 PM	#21
Ray Brady Muse Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 579	As a lifelong sufferer of Attention Surplus Syndrome, my primary hope is that we will someday find a better acronym.
Ray Brady Muse Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 579

22nd June 2012, 06:37 PM	#22
Jodie Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,909	Originally Posted by RhodyDave Yes it's real. I'm the father of a person who was medically diagnosed as ADD (no H, in his case). In the process of taking him to doctors over the years while this diagnosis was being discovered, I found that I was/am almost exactly as he is. I suffered terribly with school and any tasks that weren't in my 'sweet spot' of interest. Seeing the benefits of his diagnosis and subsequent medication, the differences are like night and day. He's getting very good grades, is able to focus and most importantly LEARN. Whether it's diagnosed in the 'right' amount is not the issue. What's important is that in many cases, the diagnosis and treatment of ADD/HD has life-changing implications. My son had the same problem, he was diagnosed in middle school but none of the medications worked for him. We continued to try different brands each with horrible side affects, mainly insomnia. When he was 15 his blood pressure was elevated on a physical exam we were getting for applying for membership at a fitness center. He had blood work done and his HgbA1C was 450, he had converted to type two diabetes. No one in my family was ever diagnosed with type two diabetes at such a young age. Upon researching the medications, I learned that there was a connection between insomnia, resulting elevated cortisol level, and the onset of diabetes. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1003080419.htm I caution anyone whose child is given this diagnosis to pay very close attention to the side effects. I would rather have a absent minded son than one with diabetes, it was only a fluke that we found out he had it before it became a crisis situation. The subsequent health problems related to diabetes will be a concern for the rest of his life.
Jodie Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,909	Last edited by Jodie; 22nd June 2012 at 06:39 PM.

22nd June 2012, 09:49 PM	#23
bumlet5 Indescribable Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The dark recesses of my imagination. Posts: 4,212	Please correct me if my interpretations are wrong. Originally Posted by Jodie I do think rather than just throwing a diagnosis on a child and placing them on medication, that a more thorough exam could be done. To me this sounds like you think the process for clinically diagnosing ADD is minimal. What do you think the process involves? Quote: If certain things in the child's environment can be altered to prevent medicating unnecessarily then I think those things should be attempted if feasible. Perhaps rethinking how we educate our children with the expectation that they sit still for extended lengths of time and that we all stick to the same generic curriculum is in order. Do you think that ADH(in this case)D behavior is just kids being kids?
	__________________ "I'm a soundwave tsunami, vocal origami, hijack the mic and it's not like anyone could stop me." -mc chris "I've seen so much death" <("<) (>")> <("<) (>")> <("<) (>")> -Nathan Fillion

22nd June 2012, 11:53 PM	#24
stilicho Trurl's Electronic Bard Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 4,714	Originally Posted by bumlet5 .... Also, what do you think of ADD/ADHD? Isn't it a subset of other mental illnesses? Is it possible that weak forms of neuroses and psychoses are "downgraded" to avoid the expense of treatment and safe removal of the "sufferers" from the general population?
	__________________ "Suppose you're thinking about a plate of shrimp. Suddenly someone will say, 'Plate' or 'Shrimp' or 'Plate of shrimp,' out of the blue. No explanation and there's no point in looking for one either. It's all part of the cosmic unconsciousness." -- REPO MAN LondonJohn: "I don't need to cite."

23rd June 2012, 09:00 AM	#25
jiggeryqua Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 2,927	Originally Posted by bumlet5 I have a friend who was recently diagnosed with Asbergers. I don't know much about ADD/ADHD, but I am intimately familiar with Aspergers (not self-diagnosed, though I know there's a lot of that going on). It's an easy mistake to make, I know, but it's turned into 'Ass Burgers' often enough that I'd plead with you to make every effort to update your internal dictionary.
	__________________ Things I have learned at jrEf: not only that there are objective measures of 'right' and 'wrong', but also that 'wrong' can be 'right' provided it comes from the right and that the left, being the opposite of right, are therefore 'wrong'.

23rd June 2012, 09:22 AM	#26
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,729	Originally Posted by Belz... My only concern is that it's over-diagnosed. Which is a different issue, the first line should always be environmental and behavioral changes, then medication should be considered.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

23rd June 2012, 09:25 AM	#27
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,729	Originally Posted by Woolgatherer If my kid was diagnosed with it I would like a second or third opinion. Exactly, teachers are not trained in assessments. It takes quite a bit of data, including observation and time/behavior studies to make a good assessment. It is important that the disorder shows in all environments. You can tell a lot by when the child can appear to focus.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

23rd June 2012, 09:27 AM	#28
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,729	Originally Posted by Jodie If certain things in the child's environment can be altered to prevent medicating unnecessarily then I think those things should be attempted if feasible. . That is best practice, behavioral and environmental changes are always the first line of action.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

23rd June 2012, 09:30 AM	#29
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,729	Originally Posted by Jodie My son had the same problem, he was diagnosed in middle school but none of the medications worked for him. We continued to try different brands each with horrible side affects, mainly insomnia. Then most likely he does not have ADHD, at least the doctors I knew felt that way. They should have done more extensive psychological and neurological evaluations. If the medications are not working then a change is diagnosis is indicated. there are so many things that look like ADD, especially some of the more interesting learning disorders. Depression in particular, after the LDs is often a good one to look at.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

23rd June 2012, 09:32 AM	#30
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,729	Originally Posted by stilicho Isn't it a subset of other mental illnesses? Is it possible that weak forms of neuroses and psychoses are "downgraded" to avoid the expense of treatment and safe removal of the "sufferers" from the general population? Hi, neurosis is a term largely no longer used as it is not useful. Psychosis is not anything like ADHD. Who removes people from the general population, that is no longer the case here in the US.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

23rd June 2012, 09:48 AM	#31
quadraginta What was the question? Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility Posts: 7,910	Originally Posted by Woolgatherer If my kid was diagnosed with it I would like a second or third opinion. If they were diagnosed with only one opinion it wouldn't have been done right to begin with.

23rd June 2012, 10:10 AM	#32
quadraginta What was the question? Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility Posts: 7,910	Originally Posted by truethat Working with Special Education for 4 years now I can say that I have first hand seen people try to get their kids diagnosed with "anything" so they can get services for their kids. Ex. I had my son diagnosed as ADD. He's not on medications and I have him labled so he qualifies for CTT and intervention services in his school. I want these services and don't want to pay for them and as long as he is diagnosed he gets it. (I think they may have changed his disability to learning disabled though) I have a friend who told me for years about the hard traumas of raising her autistic son. When I met him I thought he must be another son because the kid is definitely not autistic and she sort of revealed later that once he got diagnosed he qualified under IDEA law and FAPE for tuition at this very expensive private school. I know plenty of women with kids that are probably diagnosed like this. I also have plenty of stories where parents don't want the kids labeled so they refuse services the kid needs etc. I think it is definitely over diagnosed in schools. I don't think it's over diagnosed medically though. That last sentence is disturbing. It seems to suggest that you are in a school environment which diagnoses children without the involvement of the medical community. If that is the case then I am unsurprised the results are less than satisfactory. As to your first point, there are always people who try to take undeserved advantage of social support programs (or any pool of money, for that matter.) This does not mean that the programs are not useful, or that the problems they address do not exist. Most of the time I see someone trying to conflate these issues it is to imply that this is evidence that the illnesses or the goals of the programs are somehow at fault for the abuse of the system. They aren't.

23rd June 2012, 10:12 AM	#33
Jodie Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,909	Originally Posted by bumlet5 Please correct me if my interpretations are wrong. To me this sounds like you think the process for clinically diagnosing ADD is minimal. What do you think the process involves? Do you think that ADH(in this case)D behavior is just kids being kids? From what I experienced it is all anecdotal with other people, teachers mainly, that validate the observations. There is no blood work or concrete physical test to diagnose this condition. If the condition is real, like any other condition, it would exist on a continuum of severity, and the amount of severity is subjective. In my son's case, it may have been kids being kids, or their might have been an underlying issue not diagnosed. He is 24 now and majoring in physics even though I could not get him to open an Algebra book in middle school. He was recently diagnosed with an anxiety disorder and has had three panic attacks in the last five years that I know about. The anxiety could have played into the chronic insomnia although it is also a side effect of ADD meds. He remains unmedicated and tries to deal with it on his own terms although at this point, I think medication would be warranted, to prevent the attacks from being more frequent as he gets older. There is no such thing as a stress free life.
Jodie Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,909	Last edited by Jodie; 23rd June 2012 at 10:14 AM.

23rd June 2012, 10:18 AM	#34
quadraginta What was the question? Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility Posts: 7,910	Originally Posted by RhodyDave Yes it's real. I'm the father of a person who was medically diagnosed as ADD (no H, in his case). In the process of taking him to doctors over the years while this diagnosis was being discovered, I found that I was/am almost exactly as he is. I suffered terribly with school and any tasks that weren't in my 'sweet spot' of interest. Seeing the benefits of his diagnosis and subsequent medication, the differences are like night and day. He's getting very good grades, is able to focus and most importantly LEARN. Whether it's diagnosed in the 'right' amount is not the issue. What's important is that in many cases, the diagnosis and treatment of ADD/HD has life-changing implications. My family had much the same experience. My son was diagnosed in the Eighties, before there was an "H", and before it had become fashionable to disparage the disease. After many months of involvement by family, teachers, and physicians of several disciplines he was prescribed a minute quantity of Dexedrine, once a day. It was as though someone had flipped a switch. He went on to perform well in school and athletics, and later to finish college. He managed to get along without meds after a while, but to this day (a couple of decades later) his coffee budget remains prodigious.
	Last edited by quadraginta; 23rd June 2012 at 10:39 AM.