Is "The Invisible War" representative of US soldier behaviour ?

Belz... · 24th June 2012, 04:02 AM

Haven't seen the movie. Please move this thread if in the wrong section.

So there's this documentary on rape in the military. The description for the movie is quite unsettling: "An investigative documentary about the epidemic of rape of soldiers within the US military."

Have you seen it ? Is it accurate ? Is it exaggerated ?

Virus · 24th June 2012, 05:39 AM

What movie.

DC · 24th June 2012, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by Virus

What movie.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2120152/

geni · 24th June 2012, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Haven't seen the movie. Please move this thread if in the wrong section.

So there's this documentary on rape in the military. The description for the movie is quite unsettling: "An investigative documentary about the epidemic of rape of soldiers within the US military."

Have you seen it ? Is it accurate ? Is it exaggerated ?

Not seen it but its a known issue within the US millitary (and realisticaly every other millitary that allows women) and one they are trying to address. Thing is universities have simular issues.

MG1962 · 24th June 2012, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by geni

Not seen it but its a known issue within the US millitary (and realisticaly every other millitary that allows women) and one they are trying to address. Thing is universities have simular issues.

However being aware of something and actively doing something about it are two different things

crimresearch · 24th June 2012, 08:58 AM

Is it a realistic representation of rape within the US military? Yes.

For the same reason that it is a realistic representation of rape within other militaries, or within universities, corporations, and any group of people on the planet large enough to have the same power dynamics and organizational behaviors.

Rape is what humans do.

So is covering up, circling the wagons, sweeping under the rug, blaming the victim and stereotyping by gender, race, and position... all of which facilitate the next rape.

BStrong · 24th June 2012, 09:15 AM

I'm of the opinion that the movie fairly represents the problem.

I've spoken with a few women willing to discuss it w/ a male through my volunteer work, and the accounts of their victimization ring true to me.

Were I the IG, I'd have a firing squad up and running 24/7.

It kills me to even think that the COC is covering this up to the point that it makes the Catholic church look positively transparent and responsible.

Belz... · 25th June 2012, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

Rape is what some humans do.

Fixed that for you.

Belz... · 25th June 2012, 12:27 PM

Well, if it's accurate, it's downright scary. I mean, these women are supposed to have your back in a firefight. Wouldn't it make more sense to _not_ rape them ?

I mean, I can fathom raping victims of your conquests or the populace you're occupying, but your own teammates ?

Tsukasa Buddha · 25th June 2012, 02:23 PM

(Men are victims too.)

I quite liked his previous films. He's not a Michael Moore.

Cain · 25th June 2012, 02:41 PM

The director clearly hates America.
If women are being raped, then that shows women shouldn't be in the military.
If men are being raped, then that shows gays shouldn't be in the military.

crimresearch · 25th June 2012, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Fixed that for you.

No, you made a lie. I didn't type the word 'all' where you are pretending that I did, before you replaced it with the word 'some'.

Rape is a human construct. Animals don't rape people... people ( do I need to go on?).

crimresearch · 25th June 2012, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Well, if it's accurate, it's downright scary. I mean, these women are supposed to have your back in a firefight. Wouldn't it make more sense to _not_ rape them ?

I mean, I can fathom raping victims of your conquests or the populace you're occupying, but your own teammates ?

That's right... that's why the military has no need for police, because no one would ever rob, or kill, or cheat their 'teammates', right?

Belz... · 26th June 2012, 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

No, you made a lie. I didn't type the word 'all' where you are pretending that I did, before you replaced it with the word 'some'.

No. You made it sound normal and ubiquitous. You're just backpedaling, now.

Quote:

Rape is a human construct. Animals don't rape people...

Oh, really ?

Belz... · 26th June 2012, 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

That's right... that's why the military has no need for police, because no one would ever rob, or kill, or cheat their 'teammates', right?

I can see your contribution to this thread will be entirely rational.

What does any of this have to do with my post ?

Travis · 26th June 2012, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

Rape is a human construct. Animals don't rape people... people ( do I need to go on?).

Um what?

I think I've seen enough National Geographic to know this isn't true.

crimresearch · 26th June 2012, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

Um what?

I think I've seen enough National Geographic to know this isn't true.

Feel free to link to a current court case where a non-human was charged with rape then.

Or is National Geographic code for 'hentai'?

crimresearch · 26th June 2012, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

I can see your contribution to this thread will be entirely rational.

What does any of this have to do with my post ?

What do any of the posts where you derail your own threads have to do with anything?

You got an answer to your OP question about the movie, and it is no surpise that you don't want to discuss that.

Instead of making up lies about what I said and playing semantic games, address what I posted.

Do humans 'do' rape, yes or no? And don't waste my time with the semantic sophistry.

You know as well as I do that 'some A are B' doesn't mean 'all A are B'.

geni · 26th June 2012, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

Feel free to link to a current court case where a non-human was charged with rape then.

Courts do not get to decide how the english lanuage works no matter how much they might want to.

The scientific literature uses the term "rape" in discussions relating to the behaviour of Pan troglodytes and Orangutans. I can't really see any way to argue that the term couldn't be used in the context of say Homo neanderthalensis.

Moss · 26th June 2012, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

Feel free to link to a current court case where a non-human was charged with rape then.

Or is National Geographic code for 'hentai'?

I'm not sure the goalposts like what you just did to them.

crimresearch · 26th June 2012, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by geni

Courts do not get to decide how the english lanuage works no matter how much they might want to.

The scientific literature uses the term "rape" in discussions relating to the behaviour of Pan troglodytes and Orangutans. I can't really see any way to argue that the term couldn't be used in the context of say Homo neanderthalensis.

The OP was about the *crime* of rape, and in the real world, it is in fact, the courts that get to exclude non-humans from the category. Science has no say in the matter.

This little game of pretending that humans don't 'do rape' is simply trolling.

Does anyone have anything both correct and useful on the OP topic?

Or just more derails?

crimresearch · 26th June 2012, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Moss

I'm not sure the goalposts like what you just did to them.

And I'm not sure you bothered to read the OP topic on the crime of rape, or my comments on the crime of rape before pulling another drive-by.

Moss · 26th June 2012, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

The OP was about the *crime* of rape, and in the real world, it is in fact, the courts that get to exclude non-humans from the category. Science has no say in the matter.

This little game of pretending that humans don't 'do rape' is simply trolling.

Does anyone have anything both correct and useful on the OP topic?

Or just more derails?

I'm not sure where you get the idea from that anyone claimed humans do not rape. Not in this thread I'm afraid to say.
And the complaint about derails is cute when you were the one to claim that rape is a human construct. Which despite your attempt to redefine what you were talking about as "rape in the legal sense" or "the crime of rape" is untrue.
Sorry, not doing drive-bys I'm afraid.

geni · 26th June 2012, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

The OP was about the *crime* of rape, and in the real world, it is in fact, the courts that get to exclude non-humans from the category. Science has no say in the matter.

This little game of pretending that humans don't 'do rape' is simply trolling.

Does anyone have anything both correct and useful on the OP topic?

Or just more derails?

However the comment I was responding to was not the OP. You made a claim that is not supportable on the basis of the available evidence. If you don't want it challanged you are free to withdraw it.

crimresearch · 26th June 2012, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by geni

However the comment I was responding to was not the OP. You made a claim that is not supportable on the basis of the available evidence. If you don't want it challanged you are free to withdraw it.

Withdraw a fact (that humans do commit the *crime* of rape while animals do not) because of your disingenuous games?

Start holding your breath, I'll let you know when that happens.

crimresearch · 26th June 2012, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Moss

I'm not sure where you get the idea from that anyone claimed humans do not rape. Not in this thread I'm afraid to say.
And the complaint about derails is cute when you were the one to claim that rape is a human construct. Which despite your attempt to redefine what you were talking about as "rape in the legal sense" or "the crime of rape" is untrue.
Sorry, not doing drive-bys I'm afraid.

I'm sure you know exactly where I got that idea... the same place that I got the idea that the OP was about the crime of rape and the human soldiers committing it.

But I'll make you a deal.. you keep right on ignoring the facts, and I'll do the same for you.

Moss · 26th June 2012, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

I'm sure you know exactly where I got that idea... the same place that I got the idea that the OP was about the crime of rape and the human soldiers committing it.

But I'll make you a deal.. you keep right on ignoring the facts, and I'll do the same for you.

Odd, I could have sworn the OP was about the act of rape in general done by and to soldiers. But as you are the one to retroactively define the terms for everyone else in this thread I suppose you must be right.

Travis · 26th June 2012, 03:36 PM

Shoot, so rape doesn't exist where it isn't defined as a crime?

Why didn't we think of this decades ago?

crimresearch · 26th June 2012, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

Shoot, so rape doesn't exist where it isn't defined as a crime?

Why didn't we think of this decades ago?

I'm sure you thought of that game of trivializing rape and its victims a long time ago.

Sad, that you still think it is funny.

Belz... · 26th June 2012, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

What do any of the posts where you derail your own threads have to do with anything?

Where do I detail my own thread ? I'm responding to your nonsense.

Quote:

You got an answer to your OP question about the movie, and it is no surpise that you don't want to discuss that.

I did discuss that. So not only is that another lie, it's an uncalled for attack. Why is it "no surpise" ?

Quote:

Instead of making up lies about what I said and playing semantic games, address what I posted.

You said "rape is what humans do". I addressed exactly what you posted. If you meant something else, all you needed to do was correct yourself rather than try to save face.

Quote:

Do humans 'do' rape, yes or no? And don't waste my time with the semantic sophistry.

It's no surprise you don't want to discuss your mistake.

Quote:

You know as well as I do that 'some A are B' doesn't mean 'all A are B'.

But that's not what you said, is it ?

Belz... · 26th June 2012, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

I'm sure you thought of that game of trivializing rape and its victims a long time ago.

Sad, that you still think it is funny.

You know, for someone who berates others for derailing a thread you sure are doing plenty of that, yourself.

Why don't you just say "I made a mistake. I shouldn't have written it that way. Here is what I meant..." rather than go into defense mode ?

Travis · 26th June 2012, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

I'm sure you thought of that game of trivializing rape and its victims a long time ago.

Sad, that you still think it is funny.

Are you having an alternate conversation here I'm not aware of?

Because none of that response to what I just wrote makes any sense.

crimresearch · 26th June 2012, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

You know, for someone who berates others for derailing a thread you sure are doing plenty of that, yourself.

Why don't you just say "I made a mistake. I shouldn't have written it that way. Here is what I meant..." rather than go into defense mode ?

Because I didn't make any mistake, I gave a correct answer to your OP question, which seems to have set you off.

You didn't 'discuss' it, you questioned that it happened because no one would rape a 'team member'.

If you didn't want to talk honestly about organizations like the military and the crime of rape, then what exactly was your purpose in starting this thread?

crimresearch · 26th June 2012, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

Are you having an alternate conversation here I'm not aware of?

Because none of that response to what I just wrote makes any sense.

Again, the OP topic was military culture and the crime of rape, but you didn't let that stop you from dragging in the offensive comparison of rape victims with 'National Geographic'.

Puppycow · 27th June 2012, 01:51 AM

I see a lot of hot air in this thread, but no one has yet posted any figures.

According to the documentary:

Quote:

PARK CITY -- The Department of Defense estimates that more than 19,000 military men and women were sexually assaulted by fellow troops in 2010 while serving in the United States armed forces. At least 20 percent of servicewomen and 1 percent of men — an estimated 500,000 troops — have experienced sexual trauma while serving.

And for comparison:

Quote:

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimate that 20 to 25 percent of college women in the United States experience attempted or completed rape during while in college.

The following statistics give a sense of the extent of this problem (via New York University Student Health Center):

One in 4 college-aged women report experiences that meet the legal definitions of rape or attempted rape.
One in 5 college women are raped during their college years.

So, I guess the odds of getting raped are about the same whether you spend 4 years in college or 4 years in the military.

kevsta · 27th June 2012, 02:05 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

Shoot, so rape doesn't exist where it isn't defined as a crime?

Why didn't we think of this decades ago?

the financial industry did.

Belz... · 27th June 2012, 03:23 AM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

Because I didn't make any mistake, I gave a correct answer to your OP question, which seems to have set you off.

Crimsearch, let me illustrate how you made a mistake, assuming you don't already know, which I seriously doubt: if you told me about a person who skinned his entire family alive and then ate their flesh, and I said "well, that's what humans do !" would you consider that an accurate statement ?

Quote:

You didn't 'discuss' it, you questioned that it happened because no one would rape a 'team member'.

I never said that. You are lying again. I said I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND why they would rape their teammates, even if they needed to get laid.

Quote:

If you didn't want to talk honestly about organizations like the military and the crime of rape, then what exactly was your purpose in starting this thread?

Since your "if" clause is not true, and there is no "else" clause, I don't need to answer that.

Tsukasa Buddha · 27th June 2012, 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

I see a lot of hot air in this thread, but no one has yet posted any figures.

According to the documentary:

And for comparison:

So, I guess the odds of getting raped are about the same whether you spend 4 years in college or 4 years in the military.

But was it "rape rape"?

I think the problem is definitely in the handling of it, more than the number.

The Central Scrutinizer · 27th June 2012, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Fixed that for you.

According to Feminism 101, all men are rapists.

casebro · 27th June 2012, 06:03 AM

In an activity that very rarely has a specific verbal authorization, asking for some in a physical manner is the norm, no matter which sex does the initial touch.

Are women the more reticent at making that initial touch? Probably. Does that make every physical query by a male a rape attempt ?

Any data on the ages involved? College and military are both youthful pursuits, maybe a lot of 'date rape' is just youngsters learning to communicate non-verbally? Guys asking to loudly, girls just learning how to do a 'Down. Stay' to a puppy?

But the military is just people, in green clothing.

24th June 2012, 04:02 AM	#1
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,507	Is "The Invisible War" representative of US soldier behaviour ? Haven't seen the movie. Please move this thread if in the wrong section. So there's this documentary on rape in the military. The description for the movie is quite unsettling: "An investigative documentary about the epidemic of rape of soldiers within the US military." Have you seen it ? Is it accurate ? Is it exaggerated ?
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

24th June 2012, 05:39 AM	#2
Virus Master Templar Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 6,195	What movie.
	__________________ "The folks who proclaim their sensitivity, nuanced thinking, therapeutic concern for the tender sensibilities of others, and open-mindedness have always been the most vicious, bigoted, narrow-minded, crude, dogmatic, conformist people on the planet." - Victor Davis Hanson.

24th June 2012, 05:55 AM	#3
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,653	Originally Posted by Virus What movie. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2120152/
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24th June 2012, 08:58 AM	#6
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Is it a realistic representation of rape within the US military? Yes. For the same reason that it is a realistic representation of rape within other militaries, or within universities, corporations, and any group of people on the planet large enough to have the same power dynamics and organizational behaviors. Rape is what humans do. So is covering up, circling the wagons, sweeping under the rug, blaming the victim and stereotyping by gender, race, and position... all of which facilitate the next rape.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

25th June 2012, 12:25 PM	#8
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,507	Originally Posted by crimresearch Rape is what some humans do. Fixed that for you.
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

24th June 2012, 06:28 AM	#4
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,564	Originally Posted by Belz... Haven't seen the movie. Please move this thread if in the wrong section. So there's this documentary on rape in the military. The description for the movie is quite unsettling: "An investigative documentary about the epidemic of rape of soldiers within the US military." Have you seen it ? Is it accurate ? Is it exaggerated ? Not seen it but its a known issue within the US millitary (and realisticaly every other millitary that allows women) and one they are trying to address. Thing is universities have simular issues.

24th June 2012, 06:37 AM	#5
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by geni Not seen it but its a known issue within the US millitary (and realisticaly every other millitary that allows women) and one they are trying to address. Thing is universities have simular issues. However being aware of something and actively doing something about it are two different things

24th June 2012, 09:15 AM	#7
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 3,808	I'm of the opinion that the movie fairly represents the problem. I've spoken with a few women willing to discuss it w/ a male through my volunteer work, and the accounts of their victimization ring true to me. Were I the IG, I'd have a firing squad up and running 24/7. It kills me to even think that the COC is covering this up to the point that it makes the Catholic church look positively transparent and responsible.

25th June 2012, 12:27 PM	#9
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,507	Well, if it's accurate, it's downright scary. I mean, these women are supposed to have your back in a firefight. Wouldn't it make more sense to _not_ rape them ? I mean, I can fathom raping victims of your conquests or the populace you're occupying, but your own teammates ?
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

25th June 2012, 02:23 PM	#10
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,904	(Men are victims too.) I quite liked his previous films. He's not a Michael Moore.
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25th June 2012, 02:41 PM	#11
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,937	The director clearly hates America. If women are being raped, then that shows women shouldn't be in the military. If men are being raped, then that shows gays shouldn't be in the military.
	__________________ *Arrested Development* is coming back! Michael (to GOB): Get rid of the Seaward. Lucille: I’ll leave when I’m good and ready.

25th June 2012, 05:28 PM	#12
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by Belz... Fixed that for you. No, you made a lie. I didn't type the word 'all' where you are pretending that I did, before you replaced it with the word 'some'. Rape is a human construct. Animals don't rape people... people ( do I need to go on?).
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Last edited by crimresearch; 25th June 2012 at 05:31 PM.

25th June 2012, 05:30 PM	#13
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by Belz... Well, if it's accurate, it's downright scary. I mean, these women are supposed to have your back in a firefight. Wouldn't it make more sense to _not_ rape them ? I mean, I can fathom raping victims of your conquests or the populace you're occupying, but your own teammates ? That's right... that's why the military has no need for police, because no one would ever rob, or kill, or cheat their 'teammates', right?
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

26th June 2012, 03:19 AM	#14
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,507	Originally Posted by crimresearch No, you made a lie. I didn't type the word 'all' where you are pretending that I did, before you replaced it with the word 'some'. No. You made it sound normal and ubiquitous. You're just backpedaling, now. Quote: Rape is a human construct. Animals don't rape people... Oh, really ?
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

26th June 2012, 03:20 AM	#15
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,507	Originally Posted by crimresearch That's right... that's why the military has no need for police, because no one would ever rob, or kill, or cheat their 'teammates', right? I can see your contribution to this thread will be entirely rational. What does any of this have to do with my post ?
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

26th June 2012, 12:53 PM	#16
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,941	Originally Posted by crimresearch Rape is a human construct. Animals don't rape people... people ( do I need to go on?). Um what? I think I've seen enough National Geographic to know this isn't true.
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26th June 2012, 01:05 PM	#17
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by Travis Um what? I think I've seen enough National Geographic to know this isn't true. Feel free to link to a current court case where a non-human was charged with rape then. Or is National Geographic code for 'hentai'?
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Last edited by crimresearch; 26th June 2012 at 01:13 PM.

26th June 2012, 01:13 PM	#18
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by Belz... I can see your contribution to this thread will be entirely rational. What does any of this have to do with my post ? What do any of the posts where you derail your own threads have to do with anything? You got an answer to your OP question about the movie, and it is no surpise that you don't want to discuss that. Instead of making up lies about what I said and playing semantic games, address what I posted. Do humans 'do' rape, yes or no? And don't waste my time with the semantic sophistry. You know as well as I do that 'some A are B' doesn't mean 'all A are B'.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

26th June 2012, 01:32 PM	#19
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,564	Originally Posted by crimresearch Feel free to link to a current court case where a non-human was charged with rape then. Courts do not get to decide how the english lanuage works no matter how much they might want to. The scientific literature uses the term "rape" in discussions relating to the behaviour of Pan troglodytes and Orangutans. I can't really see any way to argue that the term couldn't be used in the context of say Homo neanderthalensis.

26th June 2012, 01:37 PM	#20
Moss Dramatocrat Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Heiligsblechle country Posts: 3,229	Originally Posted by crimresearch Feel free to link to a current court case where a non-human was charged with rape then. Or is National Geographic code for 'hentai'? I'm not sure the goalposts like what you just did to them.

26th June 2012, 02:02 PM	#21
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by geni Courts do not get to decide how the english lanuage works no matter how much they might want to. The scientific literature uses the term "rape" in discussions relating to the behaviour of Pan troglodytes and Orangutans. I can't really see any way to argue that the term couldn't be used in the context of say Homo neanderthalensis. The OP was about the crime of rape, and in the real world, it is in fact, the courts that get to exclude non-humans from the category. Science has no say in the matter. This little game of pretending that humans don't 'do rape' is simply trolling. Does anyone have anything both correct and useful on the OP topic? Or just more derails?
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

26th June 2012, 02:03 PM	#22
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by Moss I'm not sure the goalposts like what you just did to them. And I'm not sure you bothered to read the OP topic on the crime of rape, or my comments on the crime of rape before pulling another drive-by.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

26th June 2012, 02:09 PM	#23
Moss Dramatocrat Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Heiligsblechle country Posts: 3,229	Originally Posted by crimresearch The OP was about the crime of rape, and in the real world, it is in fact, the courts that get to exclude non-humans from the category. Science has no say in the matter. This little game of pretending that humans don't 'do rape' is simply trolling. Does anyone have anything both correct and useful on the OP topic? Or just more derails? I'm not sure where you get the idea from that anyone claimed humans do not rape. Not in this thread I'm afraid to say. And the complaint about derails is cute when you were the one to claim that rape is a human construct. Which despite your attempt to redefine what you were talking about as "rape in the legal sense" or "the crime of rape" is untrue. Sorry, not doing drive-bys I'm afraid.

26th June 2012, 02:10 PM	#24
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,564	Originally Posted by crimresearch The OP was about the crime of rape, and in the real world, it is in fact, the courts that get to exclude non-humans from the category. Science has no say in the matter. This little game of pretending that humans don't 'do rape' is simply trolling. Does anyone have anything both correct and useful on the OP topic? Or just more derails? However the comment I was responding to was not the OP. You made a claim that is not supportable on the basis of the available evidence. If you don't want it challanged you are free to withdraw it.

26th June 2012, 02:20 PM	#25
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by geni However the comment I was responding to was not the OP. You made a claim that is not supportable on the basis of the available evidence. If you don't want it challanged you are free to withdraw it. Withdraw a fact (that humans do commit the crime of rape while animals do not) because of your disingenuous games? Start holding your breath, I'll let you know when that happens.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

26th June 2012, 02:25 PM	#26
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by Moss I'm not sure where you get the idea from that anyone claimed humans do not rape. Not in this thread I'm afraid to say. And the complaint about derails is cute when you were the one to claim that rape is a human construct. Which despite your attempt to redefine what you were talking about as "rape in the legal sense" or "the crime of rape" is untrue. Sorry, not doing drive-bys I'm afraid. I'm sure you know exactly where I got that idea... the same place that I got the idea that the OP was about the crime of rape and the human soldiers committing it. But I'll make you a deal.. you keep right on ignoring the facts, and I'll do the same for you.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

26th June 2012, 02:28 PM	#27
Moss Dramatocrat Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Heiligsblechle country Posts: 3,229	Originally Posted by crimresearch I'm sure you know exactly where I got that idea... the same place that I got the idea that the OP was about the crime of rape and the human soldiers committing it. But I'll make you a deal.. you keep right on ignoring the facts, and I'll do the same for you. Odd, I could have sworn the OP was about the act of rape in general done by and to soldiers. But as you are the one to retroactively define the terms for everyone else in this thread I suppose you must be right.

26th June 2012, 03:36 PM	#28
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,941	Shoot, so rape doesn't exist where it isn't defined as a crime? Why didn't we think of this decades ago?
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy

26th June 2012, 03:46 PM	#29
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by Travis Shoot, so rape doesn't exist where it isn't defined as a crime? Why didn't we think of this decades ago? I'm sure you thought of that game of trivializing rape and its victims a long time ago. Sad, that you still think it is funny.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

26th June 2012, 05:10 PM	#30
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,507	Originally Posted by crimresearch What do any of the posts where you derail your own threads have to do with anything? Where do I detail my own thread ? I'm responding to your nonsense. Quote: You got an answer to your OP question about the movie, and it is no surpise that you don't want to discuss that. I did discuss that. So not only is that another lie, it's an uncalled for attack. Why is it "no surpise" ? Quote: Instead of making up lies about what I said and playing semantic games, address what I posted. You said "rape is what humans do". I addressed exactly what you posted. If you meant something else, all you needed to do was correct yourself rather than try to save face. Quote: Do humans 'do' rape, yes or no? And don't waste my time with the semantic sophistry. It's no surprise you don't want to discuss your mistake. Quote: You know as well as I do that 'some A are B' doesn't mean 'all A are B'. But that's not what you said, is it ?
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

26th June 2012, 05:11 PM	#31
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,507	Originally Posted by crimresearch I'm sure you thought of that game of trivializing rape and its victims a long time ago. Sad, that you still think it is funny. You know, for someone who berates others for derailing a thread you sure are doing plenty of that, yourself. Why don't you just say "I made a mistake. I shouldn't have written it that way. Here is what I meant..." rather than go into defense mode ?
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

26th June 2012, 06:11 PM	#32
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,941	Originally Posted by crimresearch I'm sure you thought of that game of trivializing rape and its victims a long time ago. Sad, that you still think it is funny. Are you having an alternate conversation here I'm not aware of? Because none of that response to what I just wrote makes any sense.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy

26th June 2012, 08:42 PM	#33
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by Belz... You know, for someone who berates others for derailing a thread you sure are doing plenty of that, yourself. Why don't you just say "I made a mistake. I shouldn't have written it that way. Here is what I meant..." rather than go into defense mode ? Because I didn't make any mistake, I gave a correct answer to your OP question, which seems to have set you off. You didn't 'discuss' it, you questioned that it happened because no one would rape a 'team member'. If you didn't want to talk honestly about organizations like the military and the crime of rape, then what exactly was your purpose in starting this thread?
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Last edited by crimresearch; 26th June 2012 at 08:48 PM.

26th June 2012, 08:46 PM	#34
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by Travis Are you having an alternate conversation here I'm not aware of? Because none of that response to what I just wrote makes any sense. Again, the OP topic was military culture and the crime of rape, but you didn't let that stop you from dragging in the offensive comparison of rape victims with 'National Geographic'.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

27th June 2012, 01:51 AM	#35
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,757	I see a lot of hot air in this thread, but no one has yet posted any figures. According to the documentary: Quote: PARK CITY -- The Department of Defense estimates that more than 19,000 military men and women were sexually assaulted by fellow troops in 2010 while serving in the United States armed forces. At least 20 percent of servicewomen and 1 percent of men — an estimated 500,000 troops — have experienced sexual trauma while serving. And for comparison: Quote: The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimate that 20 to 25 percent of college women in the United States experience attempted or completed rape during while in college. The following statistics give a sense of the extent of this problem (via New York University Student Health Center): One in 4 college-aged women report experiences that meet the legal definitions of rape or attempted rape. One in 5 college women are raped during their college years. So, I guess the odds of getting raped are about the same whether you spend 4 years in college or 4 years in the military.
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22