This may be stupid questions. How does anyone know if we are a pc program .....

[Mister Agenda]

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

Isn't that exactly what we experience? When we look into the sky we are looking into infinite space, but that isn't how we perceive it. We perceive it as a big bowl placed over us.

Uh-oh.

[Dave Rogers]

Originally Posted by Tricky

I have been through an MRI, where they pass you through very intense magnetic fields. Had I been a PC program, I'd have been scrambled, or at least corrupted.

Whereas in reality you're incorruptible.

Dave

[Rasmus]

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

Isn't that exactly what we experience? When we look into the sky we are looking into infinite space, but that isn't how we perceive it. We perceive it as a big bowl placed over us.

Stolen from elsewhere:

What would it have to look like to look like infinite space?

[cosmicaug]

Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

If we were in a simulation, wouldn't there be a limit to the resolution, and a limit to the size? A finite simulation could not have anything infinitely small or large. There would be a limit to how small things can be that should be observable; and a limit to how big the simulation can be, which there should also be evidence for.

I believe quantum mechanics postulates exactly this sort of graininess. Look up "Planck length". As to the other end of the scale, our universe is finite in size.

[Halfcentaur]

Originally Posted by PixyMisa

Unfortunately, Searle is babbling. There is no physical, mathematical, or logical basis for his position.

As for how we could tell if we were in a simulation: Look for inconsistencies. Clipping, rounding errors, boundaries, exploitable bugs.

If you find a way around the Second Law of Thermodynamics that depends on a number of apparently unrelated conditions, you're in a simulation.

The reason we cannot reconcile the behavior of the universe at quantum scales with the behavior at larger galactic scales with a unified field theory is because the discrepancies arise due to the boundaries of our simulated program.

The "edges" of our program are actually what black holes are.

Yee-up.

[Dave Rogers]

Originally Posted by PixyMisa

As for how we could tell if we were in a simulation: Look for inconsistencies. Clipping, rounding errors, boundaries, exploitable bugs.

There's an XKCD cartoon for every thread...

Dave

[KlLLUMINATI]

Originally Posted by levi

....In a simulation? What happen if they reset the simulation to an older save state? What would happen to you? Wouldn't you cease to exist. Is any of this even likely?

brain in a vat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat

[KlLLUMINATI]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

01001001001000000110000101101101001000000110111001 10111101110100001000000110000100100000010100000100 00110010000001110000011100100110111101100111011100 100110000101101101

you might be a pc program

[Beelzebuddy]

SMBC comics touches on this often:

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php...&id=2055#comic
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php...&id=2073#comic

[Beerina]

Originally Posted by PixyMisa

Unfortunately, Searle is babbling. There is no physical, mathematical, or logical basis for his position.

As for how we could tell if we were in a simulation: Look for inconsistencies. Clipping, rounding errors, boundaries, exploitable bugs.

If you find a way around the Second Law of Thermodynamics that depends on a number of apparently unrelated conditions, you're in a simulation.

The point I'm making, and that Searle did, is that, while the reality around you might be a simulation, you, yourself, are not. Your consciousness is a real, physical phenomenon, and is thus itself not a simulation.

At best, you would be akin to a brain in a vat.

[Beelzebuddy]

Originally Posted by Beerina

The point I'm making, and that Searle did, is that, while the reality around you might be a simulation, you, yourself, are not. Your consciousness is a real, physical phenomenon, and is thus itself not a simulation.

At best, you would be akin to a brain in a vat.

You're including a lot of ambiguous language here. Do you meant that emulated intelligence (that is, a simulation of intelligence which operates the same way the intelligence does) is not intelligent, or that emulated intelligence can count as just intelligence - "the things are also people" - or that an emulated intelligence can rest comfortably in the Descartian knowledge that, although the world is really a physics simulation running in an interpreted langauge on a computer built with Minecraft redstone switches, somewhere below all these turtles it must be a physical process in whatever passes for base reality these days?

[levi]

If we assume that we live in a simulated universe could relativity be false in the real univese?

What about if they discover many world theory in a simulation could the real universe operate without many world theory?

[Bikewer]

I listen to NPR's To The Best Of Our Knowledge regularly, and they had a segment on the "Matrix" idea last year.
Some heavy-duty philosophical types weighed in..... The consensus was that there wasn't any evidence... But also that if the simulation was powerful enough, there wouldn't be and we would have essentially no way of telling.
Everything that we could perceive or image or test would be controlled by the parameters of the simulation.
So......Why worry?

[Daald]

I don't think you can know that but it is useless since you as a program would still have to live within your world.

The movie "The 13th Floor" suggested a mechanism to find out if you were in a program. In that movie you figured out you were in a program by going somewhere where you never thought to go before and kept going. Eventually you reached a boundary where you knew it shouldn't end. So the only reason I would have against this being a program is that it seems quite wasteful to create a whole universe just to keep us fooled. Us being an accidental byproduct of some natural process appeals more to me than positing deliberate design.

[Navigator]

Originally Posted by levi

If we assume that we live in a simulated universe could relativity be false in the real univese?

What about if they discover many world theory in a simulation could the real universe operate without many world theory?

Real Universe?

If we go back to the TRON movie - when inside the computer the consciousness is the thing doing the experiencing and might think of where it came from as 'the real universe'.

Yet in the Matrix movie, the 'real universe' is not where Neo came from, but where he woke up in - plugged into the machine.

Which universe is 'real'? - How would consciousness know except to say that wherever it finds itself occupied and experiencing, THAT is the real universe, because the only real thing is Consciousness.

Lets say that this universe we are occupied within now - the physical one - life on Earth is a simulation.

Lets say that there are two main teams of entities. They are playing a game.
These entities are us, playing a game.

But not 'us' as we think of ourselves in this universe.

The object of the game is to outwit the opposition in order to win the game - one team is trying to get its humans to build a paradise for themselves on the planet - (which is the game field) the other team is trying to get the humans to build a prison for themselves on the same 'battle' field. (Earth)

In 'the real world' of the game players neither team are actually enemies. They are simply playing a game.

The rules of the game say that the team which is trying to get the 'humans' to create a prison for themselves are allowed to lie, cheat, disrupt, infiltrate...you name it...in order to achieve the goal.

The goal is not only to get the prison built, but to secure it completely so that the other team has no moves left and End Game.

The other thing about the game is that the teams playing are doing so from two perspectives - a part of their consciousness is actually being within the game played. Within the life forms - specifically the human life forms (the played).

The greater part of the players consciousness is in their real world.

Another aspect of the game is that the played - the humans - also have a say in what happens in the game being played.
In order for this to happen, the humans have to connect with the player - think of a SIM - you observe the SIM going about his/her normal business within the game completely unaware they are even in a game.

Then your SIM starts to piece together clues which lead it to behavior which allows for the possibility of connection and communication with you - the player.

The process of connection - SIM to Game-Player is rare and can aid the player toward another goal.

Players have to align their game play depending on what their humans choose.

This means that should a players human choose to work for building paradise on the game field and the player was on the build a prison team - then the player aligns its game play support to the 'build a paradise' team and vice versa.

Earth is not even the only level of the Game - the human eventually dies and goes to the next level, which is even more complex - so there are a number of goals the players are trying to achieve with their human SIMS - remembering that each human is an aspect of the player - literally part of the players consciousness.

To add to the complexity - the consciousness of the player within the game-piece of the human is normally like a silent observer - experiencing the human’s life but not being that human. Sometime a player (regardless of what team it is on) will subtly manipulate the human piece in certain directions if the human is ‘sensitive’ to that process.

The player – in placing an aspect of its consciousness into the human piece to ‘power it up’ causes something to be created which is called "Ego" which is used by the human to make sense of his existence and the ego exists precisely because the player remains largely a silent observer - the human does not know that he/she is actually a player with an entirely different existence - the human is born and other egos which were formed before it was born explain to it what it is and why it exists and thus the ego is shaped or reproduced by those egos already existing.

If the individual ego follows a path which has it questioning its existence, the things it has been taught by other egos etc...that ego has a better chance of connecting with that silent observer - the game player - and if that occurs then the game changes - not the whole game, but that egos part in the game.

As mentioned, upon death of the human form, depending on its level of understanding and belief systems and other factors, that conscious ego continues in the new game level.

The next level (after death) is a continuation from the first level. It is still part of the simulation but the game field has changed.

The extended object of this whole game is to get all the players on the same team.


This means that in order to do so, the human ego has to understand fully what it is and where it originates - that it is not just the product of the egos which came before it and educated it but it is way more than this...when this is fully achieved, the human 'wakes up' as the player. But not just as the player...but as a player who has gone through the process of being within the game and from within the game came to the realization that it is not just the ego but is the player...like the two merge and are one - so the player has - by playing the game - become something else through that process.

So if we (humans/egos) assume that we live in a simulated universe could relativity be false in the real universe?

The 'real universe' from the player’s perspective is outside the game being played. It is the highest level achievable within the game context because when the object is achieved, that player has won the game and can leave the game.

As to the possibility that once the player leaves the game, is that players reality part of another game being played, the answer is likely 'yes' and the player needed to go through the 'Earth/Astral' game and win it in order to then play the next game.

So individual players can win the game by no longer being part of it due to their bringing the ego human into full consciousness and literally bringing that out of the Earth/Astral game field and into the players own reality.

The other players, who are still working their humans or simply going along with the ride, are still in the game.

If the real win of the game is to bring a human ego out of that game and into full consciousness as to what it is and where it derived then why are the players working to use the humans to either build a paradise or a prison on the game-board? (Earth)

*The answer has to do with a game that is being played at yet another level using the players as pieces by yet another level of game players who created the game players universe (game-board) which those game-players (the ones which created the Earth game and use human game pieces) are unaware of...they too did not realize that they were pieces in another game and thus come to that awareness in much the same way as the human ego comes to that awareness.

The game (paradise or prison) had an unexpected twist...an unlikely possibility.
A possibility which the ‘prison’ team are allowed to undermine using whatever tricks they are able to come up with.
The prison team whose humans try and connect with them will create the necessary illusions in order that those humans work for the process of prison building. If those humans see through the illusion and change their alliance then the player shifts its support to the paradise team The human pieces can individually connect with their game players through the common thread of consciousness and in doing so allow the player to realize that there was more to the game than simply trying to get humans to build a paradise or a prison...and through this realization another level opens up to their awareness...*

[levi]

Was Daald answering the relativity question and many world theory question in his recent response?

[Modified]

Originally Posted by Daald

So the only reason I would have against this being a program is that it seems quite wasteful to create a whole universe just to keep us fooled. Us being an accidental byproduct of some natural process appeals more to me than positing deliberate design.

We could be an accidental byproduct of the simulation.

[Daald]

Originally Posted by levi

Was Daald answering the relativity question and many world theory question in his recent response?

No, I was just giving my opinion on the OP question.

[Daald]

Originally Posted by Modified

We could be an accidental byproduct of the simulation.

Of course, but it can also be an infinitely amount of other things as well. The point I was trying to make is that it doesn't really matter in the end (but I treat deliberate options which center on me as less likely given what we see in the system). All we can do is approach the system that we currently inhabit as if it is real until we prove that it is not. It is not useful to worry before then.

[Navigator]

Originally Posted by Daald

Of course, but it can also be an infinitely amount of other things as well. The point I was trying to make is that it doesn't really matter in the end (but I treat deliberate options which center on me as less likely given what we see in the system). All we can do is approach the system that we currently inhabit as if it is real until we prove that it is not. It is not useful to worry before then.

Wherever consciousness resides, that is Real. It is consciousness alone which makes anything real.

[Navigator]

Originally Posted by Navigator

Wherever consciousness resides, that is Real. It is consciousness alone which makes anything real.

Imagine this.

It isn't hard 2 do

We are.

That makes us conscious.

We are not 'on' or 'off'.

we are more like a volume knob but with the ability to turn to -1...etc...

consciousness does not really have a -1. It has an absolute zero but that is blankity blank.

Not even 'darkness' - because darkness is something, and also requires consciousness to identify it as being darkness.

Absolute zero.

So why the -1?

What does it signify?

something 'before'?

does -1 even truly exist?

Isn't -1 the exact moment before 'The Big Bang'?

[PixyMisa]

Originally Posted by Beerina

The point I'm making, and that Searle did, is that, while the reality around you might be a simulation, you, yourself, are not. Your consciousness is a real, physical phenomenon, and is thus itself not a simulation.

The point I'm making is that Searle is an idiot.

More specifically, he's making an argument from ignorance and incredulity. He intends to make a it a reductio ad absurdum, but lacks any kind of logical rigour. You can't just say "I don't like this conclusion, therefore the premises are false". Well, you can, but you'd be wrong.

[levi]

Could einstein's relativity be false in the real universe but true in the false simulated universe?

If they discover many world theory in a simulated universe could the real universe operate without many world theory?

If the real universe had free will would the simulated universe have free will?

If we live in a simulated universe would the program run in a way that past, present and future all exist at the same time? Also would all combination on possible path taken all run simultaneous? To better illustrate imagine a player moves right, left, right, jump. Instead at the same save point a player could go right, right, left, eat? And this assuming the original instruction was not save. Would both be loaded into the game and both exist at the same time? And all possible combination that could happen in the game exist simultaneous?

[Navigator]

Originally Posted by levi

Could einstein's relativity be false in the real universe but true in the false simulated universe?

Of course - but that is not relevant... really...

Originally Posted by levi

If they discover many world theory in a simulated universe could the real universe operate without many world theory?

Of course - but it is natural for the real world to create simulated ones.

Originally Posted by levi

If the real universe had free will would the simulated universe have free will?

To the degree that 'free will' works within that particular universe...yes.

Originally Posted by levi

If we live in a simulated universe would the program run in a way that past, present and future all exist at the same time?

Only in the Real World...and possibly in some of the simulated universes...

Originally Posted by levi

Also would all combination on possible path taken all run simultaneous?

Only in the Real World.....

Originally Posted by levi

To better illustrate imagine a player moves right, left, right, jump. Instead at the same starting point a player could go right, right, left, eat? Would both be loaded into the game and both exist at the same time? And all possible combination that coiuld happen in the game exist simultaneous?

Yes but each universe is separate except at the level of the Real Universe.

If you as a conscious being could skip from universe to universe - possibility to possibility - as an observer, you would see the patterns..event U ally

See?

[Mister Agenda]

Originally Posted by cosmicaug

I believe quantum mechanics postulates exactly this sort of graininess. Look up "Planck length". As to the other end of the scale, our universe is finite in size.

Uh-oh.

[Daald]

Originally Posted by Navigator

Wherever consciousness resides, that is Real. It is consciousness alone which makes anything real.

I don't buy that. You are making reality subjective of my mental state when it is the other way around.

Imagine I am in a very lucid dream. Is that world real? Obviously not but by your definition my consciousness is there so that world is real.

ETA:

I am arguing that we must assume it is real for the time period we are stuck in there but be ready to discard it when we find evidence that it is not. As a matter of fact I have woken up from many dreams because I figured out in the dream that I was dreaming.

[levi]

Are the answers that Navigator gave correct in his most recent post?

And can someone please answer my questions in that post.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by levi

....In a simulation? What happen if they reset the simulation to an older save state? What would happen to you? Wouldn't you cease to exist. Is any of this even likely?

We're not. Happy to help.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Daald

I don't think you can know that but it is useless since you as a program would still have to live within your world.

The movie "The 13th Floor" suggested a mechanism to find out if you were in a program. In that movie you figured out you were in a program by going somewhere where you never thought to go before and kept going. Eventually you reached a boundary where you knew it shouldn't end. So the only reason I would have against this being a program is that it seems quite wasteful to create a whole universe just to keep us fooled. Us being an accidental byproduct of some natural process appeals more to me than positing deliberate design.

Isn't "The Matrix" just Calvinism expressed in the language of science fiction?

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Navigator

Wherever consciousness resides, that is Real. It is consciousness alone which makes anything real.

And we have achieved Solipsism.

[DC]

i think it is not a computer simulation because i have discovered not a single bug.
also there was no total server wipe after beta test (pre noah's flood time) like it is usual in virtual worlds. and a total absence of the support team. complains (prayers) are not answered by automated messages as it is usual in virtual worlds, just total silence, all requests get ignored.

[cyborg]

Simulations are made to simulate things - often doing so with less resolution than the real thing. Therefore the real question is what is the thing we're supposed to be simulating like?

[Daald]

Originally Posted by tsig

Isn't "The Matrix" just Calvinism expressed in the language of science fiction?

I had to look up Calvinism in Wikipedia since I have not dealt with it before. Yes, you could make a case that "The Matrix" is Calvinism.

You can also make a case that any story which has an oppressed people looking for a savior a new and old testament story. I am sure such stories have existed before Calvinism and the bible.

What does this have to do with what I said though?

[Navigator]

Originally Posted by Daald

I don't buy that.

It isn't for sale.

Originally Posted by Daald

You are making reality subjective of my mental state when it is the other way around.

I am not making your reality subject to anything. That is entirely your conscious choice.

Originally Posted by Daald

Imagine I am in a very lucid dream. Is that world real? Obviously not but by your definition my consciousness is there so that world is real.

Exactly. It is real. You are your consciousness.

Originally Posted by Daald

I am arguing that we must assume it is real for the time period we are stuck in there but be ready to discard it when we find evidence that it is not. As a matter of fact I have woken up from many dreams because I figured out in the dream that I was dreaming.

Correct. But if you are saying that you woke up because you figured out you were in a dream, then there is something to be said about 'waking up'



You created your dream as a human being. The players created this virtual reality as their game board.
The thing about consciousness is that is an exception tool for creating.

If you believe that you are the human body, and that is all you are, - that is the you you are speaking of when you use that word, then your identity is limited to that concept.

I have had dreams where I am not the ‘me’ of my dominant human reality. I am not even the same gender. Within those type dreams there is no other ‘me’ questioning the validity of the experience. I am totally the different me. How can the dominant identity even know what it is like to be someone completely different?

Dreams are great learning tools.

If your dominant reality is that you are a human being and thus when you die as you eventually will, then that is the end of you.

Now in line with your quote:

Originally Posted by Daald

I am arguing that we must assume it is real for the time period we are stuck in there but be ready to discard it when we find evidence that it is not. As a matter of fact I have woken up from many dreams because I figured out in the dream that I was dreaming.

If when you die you discover that you consciously carry on being…then you will have to be ready to discard your prior assumptions because you will have found evidence contrary to your former beliefs.

Likely you may still identify with that ‘you’ which you identified with prior to death but without the flesh and blood body ‘you’ believed ‘you’ were.
In one sense it will be like an awakening.
However you will have the Astral to deal with and the disadvantage of only having being prepared for the certainty of unconsciousness

Because we are able to explore outside of the confines of our bodies we can use the knowledge of the experience as a preparation device for the inevitable.

For now, whether dreaming, lucid dreaming, or astral projecting or any other experience related to consciousness – while the human body is able to contain consciousness, then that is our dominant reality.

In the game.

While our individual realties might differ, we share a collective reality. The game board ‘life on earth’.

In this reality, we are contributing our energy to building systems. Prison systems at this point of the game.

[Navigator]

Originally Posted by tsig

And we have achieved Solipsism.

Solipsism in Philosophy . the theory that only the self exists, or can be proved to exist.

Not really. We originate from that state, but the game levels separate us from that state. Consciousness is fragmented in order that the levels can be created and explored.
At the level of this particular game, we as ‘self’ co-exist with all other self expressions.
Consciousness however is not whole or one in regard to the game pieces or the game players.

In the real universe it is complete. But it wasn't achieved - it is just the natural state from where all other states derive from.

We most likely will never want to return to that state.

I have read where there are individuals observed in Astral who are existing as only the self and are not aware that any others exist. They are completely alone and chose this.
However, because they can be observed, they are not really alone at all.



Also Solipsism: Extreme preoccupation with and indulgence of one's feelings,desires, etc.; egoistic self-absorption.

A perfect description of a human game piece useful for the prison team.

[Navigator]

Originally Posted by DC

i think it is not a computer simulation because i have discovered not a single bug.
also there was no total server wipe after beta test (pre noah's flood time) like it is usual in virtual worlds. and a total absence of the support team. complains (prayers) are not answered by automated messages as it is usual in virtual worlds, just total silence, all requests get ignored.

'Prayers' would be an attempt to connect with the players. There are any amount of individuals who you will never convince did not have at least some of their prayers-complaints/requests answered.

One thing about prayers is that they are usually assigned to religion. One thing about religion is that they have – at least in the believers understanding – different gods.

So ask those with different gods if they have their prayers answered, and they will all say ‘yes’ and the more honest ones will say ‘sometimes’ yet the deities answering the prayer are sometimes diametrically opposed to one another…like they are playing a game…

Indeed – the deities are really the game players. In some regard they fit the role of being ‘god-like’ but they are not even gods. They created a game and then invested an aspect of their own consciousness into the game to make the game ‘go’.

The team which is focused upon using human pieces for building paradise will answer ‘prayers’ which are useful for the goal and assume the role – they work with what they have – with the belief systems of the pieces – same goes for the prison team – they will answer ‘prayers’ and play the god roles which are useful for their goal.

As far as a virtual simulator goes – there is nothing made by humans which even comes close to the exact science of the Players virtual reality simulator.

We have SIMS. But they are not conscious.

[Daald]

Originally Posted by Navigator

It isn't for sale.

And yet, here you are selling it.

Quote:

I am not making your reality subject to anything. That is entirely your conscious choice.

Yes you are. Reality can have nothing to do with my consciousness. It existed before me and will after me. It is not depended upon me. My interpretation of reality is my conscious choice.

Quote:

Exactly. It is real. You are your consciousness.

I am my consciousness and my interpretation of reality is part of my consciousness. Reality itself is apart from that. With that definition, my dream is most definitely not real but my interpretation of it is.

Quote:

Correct. But if you are saying that you woke up because you figured out you were in a dream, then there is something to be said about 'waking up'

I would say there is something to be said about facts and rationality.

Quote:

You created your dream as a human being. The players created this virtual reality as their game board.
The thing about consciousness is that is an exception tool for creating.

If you believe that you are the human body, and that is all you are, - that is the you you are speaking of when you use that word, then your identity is limited to that concept.

I have had dreams where I am not the ‘me’ of my dominant human reality. I am not even the same gender. Within those type dreams there is no other ‘me’ questioning the validity of the experience. I am totally the different me. How can the dominant identity even know what it is like to be someone completely different?

Dreams are great learning tools.

If your dominant reality is that you are a human being and thus when you die as you eventually will, then that is the end of you.

Well how different? Were you a chicken for example or were you like your "dominant personality" but with a few tweaks that your mind guessed? Anyway you would have to explain what your mind playing tricks on itself says about anything. After all delusion is not something that mystifies us anymore.

Quote:

Now in line with your quote:


If when you die you discover that you consciously carry on being…then you will have to be ready to discard your prior assumptions because you will have found evidence contrary to your former beliefs.

Likely you may still identify with that ‘you’ which you identified with prior to death but without the flesh and blood body ‘you’ believed ‘you’ were.
In one sense it will be like an awakening.
However you will have the Astral to deal with and the disadvantage of only having being prepared for the certainty of unconsciousness

Because we are able to explore outside of the confines of our bodies we can use the knowledge of the experience as a preparation device for the inevitable.

For now, whether dreaming, lucid dreaming, or astral projecting or any other experience related to consciousness – while the human body is able to contain consciousness, then that is our dominant reality.

In the game.

While our individual realties might differ, we share a collective reality. The game board ‘life on earth’.

In this reality, we are contributing our energy to building systems. Prison systems at this point of the game.

Ahh. I see. Do you have any objective proof for Astral projection or what happens after death? This site offers one million dollars if you do. I look forward to you claiming that prize.

[Navigator]

Originally Posted by cyborg

Simulations are made to simulate things - often doing so with less resolution than the real thing. Therefore the real question is what is the thing we're supposed to be simulating like?

Have you ever left you body and floated under the stars?

The common expression used by those who have is that it is just like reality only 'more real'.

Perhaps the simulation we know of as 'reality' is as to the thing that created the simulation, like our shadow is to us?

Indeed, our reality as human beings is this dominant one we all share. It doesn't matter that it is a simulation so much as what we are consciously doing within that simulation - if in our state we are actually pieces being played, we are not entirely without choice and can determine the preferred outcome and build our preferred reality within the limitations of this matrix.

As limiting as it is, there is still a great deal of scope.

[Navigator]

Originally Posted by Daald

And yet, here you are selling it.

I have not made a cent.

That is called "giving".

[cyborg]

Originally Posted by Navigator

Perhaps the simulation we know of as 'reality' is as to the thing that created the simulation, like our shadow is to us?

The problem I present is semantic - our reality is our reality. It is not really relevant how it operates in this context.

The problem is calling it a "simulation" is a zero-information label unless you can refer to the thing it is supposed to be simulating.

As such the question could be rephrased, "what if the thing I label the substrate of reality is actually underpinned by another more fundamental substrate that is invisible to me?" Well, if that's the case you can't tell. You can't tell because the way you've defined the question means you can't tell. If one insists on tying one's self in logical knots like that you will end up in a brain tangle. It's not really going to achieve much other than entertainment.