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Jeff Corey · 10th July 2012, 09:02 PM

For all of her life our German- Australian Shepmutt Schatzie has been extremely fearful of sudden loud noises. Duckchunters set her off. Again next Saturday the local firem..people are going to fire off fireworks in honor of someting mayhaps Bastille day.
THe vet tech reccommended Doggie Downers, which I have to fill at a human oriented drug store.
My question is are they safe for Shatz, and at 70 lbs ( 30 or so kg) what would be a safe dose?

WOOF!

Yuri Nalyssus · 10th July 2012, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff Corey

THe vet tech reccommended Doggie Downers, which I have to fill at a human oriented drug store.
My question is are they safe for Shatz, and at 70 lbs ( 30 or so kg) what would be a safe dose?
WOOF!

I've done a quick google and 'Doggie Downers' seems to be a generic term used for several types of dog tranquillisers - what are the active ingredients of the ones you've been prescribed?

Most herbal stuff, if it's formulated for dogs, will be safe (scullcap, valerian, that sort of thing) but I'd be dubious about their effectiveness, particularly in a dog with fairly ingrained behavioural patterns. Pharmaceuticals (ACP, valium, phenobarbitone, various hormones etc...) will be more likely to 'work' but the criticism is that they are more a chemical restraint rather than anything which will help with the underlying anxiety. Sometimes though you just need that chemical restraint though to avoid distress and even injury to everyone - dog and human. Valium (diazepam) is probably the best at actually relieving anxiety.

In common with any real drug there are good effects and bad effects, as a rule in a healthy dog they can be used quite safely but if there is any heart disease you should be careful as often they will affect blood pressure and also I believe the occasional (extremely rare - never seen a case myself) dog can have a reaction to diazepam which can lead to liver damage.

Hopefully your vet will have given Shatz a clinical exam and taken a history to rule out any obvious concerns.

There's no doubt that long term behavioural modification is the best way to go although drugs can help along the way. A good behaviouralist should be able to help or, if you want to have a go yourself we recommend the 'sounds scary' CD to our clients but what ever route you go down it is very hard work and can be difficult and frustrating!

Cheers,

Yuri

PS - excellent photo btw

crimresearch · 11th July 2012, 12:06 AM

Friend of mine has to give her dog Xanax for fireworks, big thunderstorms etc. per the vet.

lionking · 11th July 2012, 12:09 AM

A bit late seeing your mutt has gone to doggy heaven and is now a stuffed head.

Jeff Corey · 11th July 2012, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus

I've done a quick google and 'Doggie Downers' seems to be a generic term used for several types of dog tranquillisers - what are the active ingredients of the ones you've been prescribed?

Most herbal stuff, if it's formulated for dogs, will be safe (scullcap, valerian, that sort of thing) but I'd be dubious about their effectiveness, particularly in a dog with fairly ingrained behavioural patterns. Pharmaceuticals (ACP, valium, phenobarbitone, various hormones etc...) will be more likely to 'work' but the criticism is that they are more a chemical restraint rather than anything which will help with the underlying anxiety. Sometimes though you just need that chemical restraint though to avoid distress and even injury to everyone - dog and human. Valium (diazepam) is probably the best at actually relieving anxiety.

In common with any real drug there are good effects and bad effects, as a rule in a healthy dog they can be used quite safely but if there is any heart disease you should be careful as often they will affect blood pressure and also I believe the occasional (extremely rare - never seen a case myself) dog can have a reaction to diazepam which can lead to liver damage.

Hopefully your vet will have given Shatz a clinical exam and taken a history to rule out any obvious concerns.

There's no doubt that long term behavioural modification is the best way to go although drugs can help along the way. A good behaviouralist should be able to help or, if you want to have a go yourself we recommend the 'sounds scary' CD to our clients but what ever route you go down it is very hard work and can be difficult and frustrating!

Cheers,

Yuri

PS - excellent photo btw

Thanks. I plan to discuss this with the vet afore dosing her. I think there is no "underlying problem" presenting here. All my dogs have had different sensitivities to loud sudden noises. Since I teach behavior modification (ABA), I am familiar with techniques such as counterconditioning, systematic desesensitization and fading to allay fears.

Jeff Corey · 11th July 2012, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

A bit late seeing your mutt has gone to doggy heaven and is now a stuffed head.

Crikey, mate, WTF are you flappin yer gob aboot?

aggle-rithm · 11th July 2012, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by Jeff Corey

Crikey, mate, WTF are you flappin yer gob aboot?

Right! Clearly, it's a disembodied head.

lionking · 11th July 2012, 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

Right! Clearly, it's a disembodied head.

Sorry, my mistake.

godless dave · 11th July 2012, 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by Jeff Corey

My question is are they safe for Shatz, and at 70 lbs ( 30 or so kg) what would be a safe dose?

Seems like your vet would be more qualified to answer that than anyone here.

aggle-rithm · 11th July 2012, 05:38 AM

BTW, we give our dog Valium.

calebprime · 11th July 2012, 06:06 AM

Dogs like yours are right. Fireworks are stupid, at best.

Jeff Corey · 11th July 2012, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by calebprime

Dogs like yours are right. Fireworks are stupid, at best.

And a waste of taxpayers' money. And they don't even realize they are celebrating Bastille Day! Allons, enfants de le la PARTY!

WhatRoughBeast · 11th July 2012, 06:34 AM

For a literary (and hilariious) perspective on this exact problem, I commend "That Pup of Murdchison's".

http://books.google.com/books?id=Tex...'s&f=false

Buckaroo · 11th July 2012, 08:34 AM

Google "thundershirt." There's some evidence that a snug-fitting vest-like wrap can have a calming effect on dogs during events like thunderstorms and fireworks. Could probably be easily improvised, too. Worth a shot, if you don't like the idea of doping the critter.

Halfcentaur · 11th July 2012, 08:59 AM

How much do the doggy downers cost? Maybe it's cheaper to just drive the dog somewhere secluded from the noise for a bit.

pgwenthold · 11th July 2012, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

How much do the doggy downers cost? Maybe it's cheaper to just drive the dog somewhere secluded from the noise for a bit.

The solution in Martha Speaks was to arrange to have a special showing of a dog-friendly movie in the theatre while the fireworks were going off.

Rolfe · 11th July 2012, 10:35 AM

Yuri, do you remember the vogue for promoting homoeopathy for firework anxiety in dogs? Wasn't the "success" of a treatment of that nature the reason given for one of our favourite woos espousing homoeopathy? I can't remember the details - can you?

That was all quite some time ago. They were really confident that they had a clinically useful effect. I wonder what happened?

Rolfe.

malicus · 11th July 2012, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

Friend of mine has to give her dog Xanax for fireworks, big thunderstorms etc. per the vet.

That's what I use. Only drawback is the wide dose range (10-fold) so hitting it lucky first time would be, well............lucky.

Previous to that I would use a combination of a B-blocker and phenobarbitone, for THREE weeks minimum leading up to the expected scary event.

Previous to THAT it was ACP...........made us feel good cos doggy looked relaxed. But inside the fear was most likely present.

So.........alprazolam. Very good short term amnesiac, theoretically the 'event' wont reinforce the fear for the future.

Mal.

jasonpatterson · 11th July 2012, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

The solution in Martha Speaks was to arrange to have a special showing of a dog-friendly movie in the theatre while the fireworks were going off.

I was thinking the exact same thing. She's not always right, but still, that Martha speaks.

Yuri Nalyssus · 12th July 2012, 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by Buckaroo

Google "thundershirt." There's some evidence that a snug-fitting vest-like wrap can have a calming effect on dogs during events like thunderstorms and fireworks. Could probably be easily improvised, too. Worth a shot, if you don't like the idea of doping the critter.

Better still, google 'Thunderpants' - it's more fun, less expensive and likely to be just as effective

Yuri

Yuri Nalyssus · 12th July 2012, 02:55 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Yuri, do you remember the vogue for promoting homoeopathy for firework anxiety in dogs? Wasn't the "success" of a treatment of that nature the reason given for one of our favourite woos espousing homoeopathy? I can't remember the details - can you?

That was all quite some time ago. They were really confident that they had a clinically useful effect. I wonder what happened?

Rolfe.

Yup, that was probably the hilarious Cracknell, N.R., Mills, D.S., (2008) A double-blind placebo-controlled study into the efficacy of a homeopathic remedy for fear of firework noises in the dog (Canis familiaris). The Veterinary Journal Vol. 177 pp. 80-88. I was actually invited to submit cases for this study but finally decided that life was too short.

The authors concluded that homeopathy was great for treating fear of firewors but rather absentmindedly omitted to point out that the placebo control did exactly the same to an identical degree. The only possible conclusion was that homeopathy 'treats' owners, not animals!

It was apparently nicely critiqued by Overall, K.L., and Dunham, A.E., (2008) Homeopathy and the curse of the scientific method Veterinary Journal Vol. 180 pp141-148. I've read a good web commentary on this second paper but never actually seen the original (hint, hint

)*

Cheers,

Yuri

* ETA - yay, I found it!

CORed · 12th July 2012, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus

I've done a quick google and 'Doggie Downers' seems to be a generic term used for several types of dog tranquillisers - what are the active ingredients of the ones you've been prescribed?

Most herbal stuff, if it's formulated for dogs, will be safe (scullcap, valerian, that sort of thing) but I'd be dubious about their effectiveness, particularly in a dog with fairly ingrained behavioural patterns. Pharmaceuticals (ACP, valium, phenobarbitone, various hormones etc...) will be more likely to 'work' but the criticism is that they are more a chemical restraint rather than anything which will help with the underlying anxiety. Sometimes though you just need that chemical restraint though to avoid distress and even injury to everyone - dog and human. Valium (diazepam) is probably the best at actually relieving anxiety.

In common with any real drug there are good effects and bad effects, as a rule in a healthy dog they can be used quite safely but if there is any heart disease you should be careful as often they will affect blood pressure and also I believe the occasional (extremely rare - never seen a case myself) dog can have a reaction to diazepam which can lead to liver damage.

Hopefully your vet will have given Shatz a clinical exam and taken a history to rule out any obvious concerns.

There's no doubt that long term behavioural modification is the best way to go although drugs can help along the way. A good behaviouralist should be able to help or, if you want to have a go yourself we recommend the 'sounds scary' CD to our clients but what ever route you go down it is very hard work and can be difficult and frustrating!

Cheers,

Yuri

PS - excellent photo btw

This is a bit of a derail, but the term "Doggie Downers" AFAIK, originated on an early (1st season?) episode of "Saturday Night Live", which had spoof commercials for "Puppy Uppers" and "Doggie Downers".

Tatyana · 12th July 2012, 10:14 AM

I have to post just to say your doggie is so flipping cute.

10th July 2012, 09:02 PM	#1
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,797	Vet Help! Dog + Fireworks For all of her life our German- Australian Shepmutt Schatzie has been extremely fearful of sudden loud noises. Duckchunters set her off. Again next Saturday the local firem..people are going to fire off fireworks in honor of someting mayhaps Bastille day. THe vet tech reccommended Doggie Downers, which I have to fill at a human oriented drug store. My question is are they safe for Shatz, and at 70 lbs ( 30 or so kg) what would be a safe dose? WOOF!
	Last edited by Jeff Corey; 10th July 2012 at 09:15 PM.

10th July 2012, 11:58 PM	#2
Yuri Nalyssus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Ancient Isle of Avignuon Posts: 1,083	Originally Posted by Jeff Corey THe vet tech reccommended Doggie Downers, which I have to fill at a human oriented drug store. My question is are they safe for Shatz, and at 70 lbs ( 30 or so kg) what would be a safe dose? WOOF! I've done a quick google and 'Doggie Downers' seems to be a generic term used for several types of dog tranquillisers - what are the active ingredients of the ones you've been prescribed? Most herbal stuff, if it's formulated for dogs, will be safe (scullcap, valerian, that sort of thing) but I'd be dubious about their effectiveness, particularly in a dog with fairly ingrained behavioural patterns. Pharmaceuticals (ACP, valium, phenobarbitone, various hormones etc...) will be more likely to 'work' but the criticism is that they are more a chemical restraint rather than anything which will help with the underlying anxiety. Sometimes though you just need that chemical restraint though to avoid distress and even injury to everyone - dog and human. Valium (diazepam) is probably the best at actually relieving anxiety. In common with any real drug there are good effects and bad effects, as a rule in a healthy dog they can be used quite safely but if there is any heart disease you should be careful as often they will affect blood pressure and also I believe the occasional (extremely rare - never seen a case myself) dog can have a reaction to diazepam which can lead to liver damage. Hopefully your vet will have given Shatz a clinical exam and taken a history to rule out any obvious concerns. There's no doubt that long term behavioural modification is the best way to go although drugs can help along the way. A good behaviouralist should be able to help or, if you want to have a go yourself we recommend the 'sounds scary' CD to our clients but what ever route you go down it is very hard work and can be difficult and frustrating! Cheers, Yuri PS - excellent photo btw
	__________________ "The test of democracy is freedom of criticism." -David Ben-Gurion Peasant: Now we see the violence inherent in the system. King: Shut up! Peasant: Come and see the violence inherent in the system, help, help! I’m being repressed! King: Bloody peasant! Peasant: Ooh, what a giveaway, did you hear that... that’s what I’m on about, d’you see him repressing me? You saw it didn’t you... - Monty Python and The Holy Grail

11th July 2012, 12:06 AM	#3
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Friend of mine has to give her dog Xanax for fireworks, big thunderstorms etc. per the vet.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

11th July 2012, 12:09 AM	#4
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,983	A bit late seeing your mutt has gone to doggy heaven and is now a stuffed head.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

11th July 2012, 05:13 AM	#7
aggle-rithm Ardent Formulist Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14,297	Originally Posted by Jeff Corey Crikey, mate, WTF are you flappin yer gob aboot? Right! Clearly, it's a disembodied head.
	__________________ To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.

11th July 2012, 04:34 AM	#5
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,797	Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus I've done a quick google and 'Doggie Downers' seems to be a generic term used for several types of dog tranquillisers - what are the active ingredients of the ones you've been prescribed? Most herbal stuff, if it's formulated for dogs, will be safe (scullcap, valerian, that sort of thing) but I'd be dubious about their effectiveness, particularly in a dog with fairly ingrained behavioural patterns. Pharmaceuticals (ACP, valium, phenobarbitone, various hormones etc...) will be more likely to 'work' but the criticism is that they are more a chemical restraint rather than anything which will help with the underlying anxiety. Sometimes though you just need that chemical restraint though to avoid distress and even injury to everyone - dog and human. Valium (diazepam) is probably the best at actually relieving anxiety. In common with any real drug there are good effects and bad effects, as a rule in a healthy dog they can be used quite safely but if there is any heart disease you should be careful as often they will affect blood pressure and also I believe the occasional (extremely rare - never seen a case myself) dog can have a reaction to diazepam which can lead to liver damage. Hopefully your vet will have given Shatz a clinical exam and taken a history to rule out any obvious concerns. There's no doubt that long term behavioural modification is the best way to go although drugs can help along the way. A good behaviouralist should be able to help or, if you want to have a go yourself we recommend the 'sounds scary' CD to our clients but what ever route you go down it is very hard work and can be difficult and frustrating! Cheers, Yuri PS - excellent photo btw Thanks. I plan to discuss this with the vet afore dosing her. I think there is no "underlying problem" presenting here. All my dogs have had different sensitivities to loud sudden noises. Since I teach behavior modification (ABA), I am familiar with techniques such as counterconditioning, systematic desesensitization and fading to allay fears.

11th July 2012, 04:37 AM	#6
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,797	Originally Posted by lionking A bit late seeing your mutt has gone to doggy heaven and is now a stuffed head. Crikey, mate, WTF are you flappin yer gob aboot?

11th July 2012, 05:23 AM	#8
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,983	Originally Posted by aggle-rithm Right! Clearly, it's a disembodied head. Sorry, my mistake.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

11th July 2012, 05:26 AM	#9
godless dave Great Dalmuti Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: St. Paul, Minnesota Posts: 6,137	Originally Posted by Jeff Corey My question is are they safe for Shatz, and at 70 lbs ( 30 or so kg) what would be a safe dose? Seems like your vet would be more qualified to answer that than anyone here.
	__________________ "If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm

11th July 2012, 05:38 AM	#10
aggle-rithm Ardent Formulist Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14,297	BTW, we give our dog Valium.
	__________________ To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.

11th July 2012, 06:06 AM	#11
calebprime Somewhat Elitist Parasite Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 7,764	Dogs like yours are right. Fireworks are stupid, at best.
	__________________ Mr. DeBakey's free, but he's a little bit conciliatory.

11th July 2012, 06:33 AM	#12
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,797	Originally Posted by calebprime Dogs like yours are right. Fireworks are stupid, at best. And a waste of taxpayers' money. And they don't even realize they are celebrating Bastille Day! Allons, enfants de le la PARTY!

11th July 2012, 06:34 AM	#13
WhatRoughBeast Muse Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 858	For a literary (and hilariious) perspective on this exact problem, I commend "That Pup of Murdchison's". http://books.google.com/books?id=Tex...'s&f=false
WhatRoughBeast Muse Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 858

11th July 2012, 08:34 AM	#14
Buckaroo Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Washington, D.C. Posts: 1,726	Google "thundershirt." There's some evidence that a snug-fitting vest-like wrap can have a calming effect on dogs during events like thunderstorms and fireworks. Could probably be easily improvised, too. Worth a shot, if you don't like the idea of doping the critter.
	__________________ "You ask me do I love you... does the pope live in the woods? Quad Erat Demonstrandum, baby... " "Oh! You speak French!" -- Airhead, by Thomas Dolby "When you're slapped you'll take it and like it." -- Sam Spade

11th July 2012, 08:59 AM	#15
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,004	How much do the doggy downers cost? Maybe it's cheaper to just drive the dog somewhere secluded from the noise for a bit.
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,004

11th July 2012, 10:03 AM	#16
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,119	Originally Posted by Halfcentaur How much do the doggy downers cost? Maybe it's cheaper to just drive the dog somewhere secluded from the noise for a bit. The solution in Martha Speaks was to arrange to have a special showing of a dog-friendly movie in the theatre while the fireworks were going off.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

11th July 2012, 10:35 AM	#17
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,406	Yuri, do you remember the vogue for promoting homoeopathy for firework anxiety in dogs? Wasn't the "success" of a treatment of that nature the reason given for one of our favourite woos espousing homoeopathy? I can't remember the details - can you? That was all quite some time ago. They were really confident that they had a clinically useful effect. I wonder what happened? Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

11th July 2012, 11:45 AM	#18
malicus Muse Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 749	Originally Posted by crimresearch Friend of mine has to give her dog Xanax for fireworks, big thunderstorms etc. per the vet. That's what I use. Only drawback is the wide dose range (10-fold) so hitting it lucky first time would be, well............lucky. Previous to that I would use a combination of a B-blocker and phenobarbitone, for THREE weeks minimum leading up to the expected scary event. Previous to THAT it was ACP...........made us feel good cos doggy looked relaxed. But inside the fear was most likely present. So.........alprazolam. Very good short term amnesiac, theoretically the 'event' wont reinforce the fear for the future. Mal.
malicus Muse Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 749

11th July 2012, 08:58 PM	#19
jasonpatterson Philanthropic Misanthrope Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Space, The Final Frontier Posts: 2,197	Originally Posted by pgwenthold The solution in Martha Speaks was to arrange to have a special showing of a dog-friendly movie in the theatre while the fireworks were going off. I was thinking the exact same thing. She's not always right, but still, that Martha speaks.
	__________________ Sandra's seen a leprechaun, Eddie touched a troll, Laurie danced with witches once, Charlie found some goblins' gold. Donald heard a mermaid sing, Susie spied an elf, But all the magic I have known I've had to make myself. - Shel Silverstein

12th July 2012, 02:43 AM	#20
Yuri Nalyssus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Ancient Isle of Avignuon Posts: 1,083	Originally Posted by Buckaroo Google "thundershirt." There's some evidence that a snug-fitting vest-like wrap can have a calming effect on dogs during events like thunderstorms and fireworks. Could probably be easily improvised, too. Worth a shot, if you don't like the idea of doping the critter. Better still, google 'Thunderpants' - it's more fun, less expensive and likely to be just as effective Yuri
	__________________ "The test of democracy is freedom of criticism." -David Ben-Gurion Peasant: Now we see the violence inherent in the system. King: Shut up! Peasant: Come and see the violence inherent in the system, help, help! I’m being repressed! King: Bloody peasant! Peasant: Ooh, what a giveaway, did you hear that... that’s what I’m on about, d’you see him repressing me? You saw it didn’t you... - Monty Python and The Holy Grail

12th July 2012, 02:55 AM	#21
Yuri Nalyssus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Ancient Isle of Avignuon Posts: 1,083	Originally Posted by Rolfe Yuri, do you remember the vogue for promoting homoeopathy for firework anxiety in dogs? Wasn't the "success" of a treatment of that nature the reason given for one of our favourite woos espousing homoeopathy? I can't remember the details - can you? That was all quite some time ago. They were really confident that they had a clinically useful effect. I wonder what happened? Rolfe. Yup, that was probably the hilarious Cracknell, N.R., Mills, D.S., (2008) A double-blind placebo-controlled study into the efficacy of a homeopathic remedy for fear of firework noises in the dog (Canis familiaris). The Veterinary Journal Vol. 177 pp. 80-88. I was actually invited to submit cases for this study but finally decided that life was too short. The authors concluded that homeopathy was great for treating fear of firewors but rather absentmindedly omitted to point out that the placebo control did exactly the same to an identical degree. The only possible conclusion was that homeopathy 'treats' owners, not animals! It was apparently nicely critiqued by Overall, K.L., and Dunham, A.E., (2008) Homeopathy and the curse of the scientific method Veterinary Journal Vol. 180 pp141-148. I've read a good web commentary on this second paper but never actually seen the original (hint, hint )* Cheers, Yuri * ETA - yay, I found it!
	__________________ "The test of democracy is freedom of criticism." -David Ben-Gurion Peasant: Now we see the violence inherent in the system. King: Shut up! Peasant: Come and see the violence inherent in the system, help, help! I’m being repressed! King: Bloody peasant! Peasant: Ooh, what a giveaway, did you hear that... that’s what I’m on about, d’you see him repressing me? You saw it didn’t you... - Monty Python and The Holy Grail Last edited by Yuri Nalyssus; 12th July 2012 at 03:36 AM.

12th July 2012, 09:55 AM	#22
CORed Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 4,349	Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus I've done a quick google and 'Doggie Downers' seems to be a generic term used for several types of dog tranquillisers - what are the active ingredients of the ones you've been prescribed? Most herbal stuff, if it's formulated for dogs, will be safe (scullcap, valerian, that sort of thing) but I'd be dubious about their effectiveness, particularly in a dog with fairly ingrained behavioural patterns. Pharmaceuticals (ACP, valium, phenobarbitone, various hormones etc...) will be more likely to 'work' but the criticism is that they are more a chemical restraint rather than anything which will help with the underlying anxiety. Sometimes though you just need that chemical restraint though to avoid distress and even injury to everyone - dog and human. Valium (diazepam) is probably the best at actually relieving anxiety. In common with any real drug there are good effects and bad effects, as a rule in a healthy dog they can be used quite safely but if there is any heart disease you should be careful as often they will affect blood pressure and also I believe the occasional (extremely rare - never seen a case myself) dog can have a reaction to diazepam which can lead to liver damage. Hopefully your vet will have given Shatz a clinical exam and taken a history to rule out any obvious concerns. There's no doubt that long term behavioural modification is the best way to go although drugs can help along the way. A good behaviouralist should be able to help or, if you want to have a go yourself we recommend the 'sounds scary' CD to our clients but what ever route you go down it is very hard work and can be difficult and frustrating! Cheers, Yuri PS - excellent photo btw This is a bit of a derail, but the term "Doggie Downers" AFAIK, originated on an early (1st season?) episode of "Saturday Night Live", which had spoof commercials for "Puppy Uppers" and "Doggie Downers".
CORed Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 4,349	Last edited by CORed; 12th July 2012 at 10:52 AM.

12th July 2012, 10:14 AM	#23
Tatyana Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Experiment 1: Flame and Flesh Posts: 3,431	I have to post just to say your doggie is so flipping cute.