Send in the tanks! (Chavez) - Page 23

McHrozni · 12th July 2012, 02:51 AM

Originally Posted by DC

yeah i notices your move of goalpost but i ignore them.
you called Venezuela a dictatorship do to a lack of freedom of press, now that you realize what a dumb claim it was you moved the goalposts. very telling

Of course it's a dictatorship because of the lack of the freedom of press, among other things. I picked it because you conceded earlier it had problems with it and couldn't worm out of it all that easily. You had to divert attention and use tu queque fallacy, which, predictably, failed.

Now that we've cleared that up, do you also agree they lack an independent judiciary? You haven't addressed that at all, just ignored the issue and attempted (pathetically) to divert attention. May I assume you're conceding that point as well?

McHrozni

Childlike Empress · 12th July 2012, 03:00 AM

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

The Great Chavez expresses his progressive and humane thoughts on Idi Amin:

About former Ugandan President Idi Amin, Mr Chavez said: “We thought he was a cannibal… I don’t know, maybe he was a great nationalist, a patriot.”
Idi Amin seized power in 1971. About 300,000 people were killed during his eight-year rule.

I have to wonder what type of person admires a monster like Idi Amin.

Not Chavez. He was making a rhetorical point about the vicious lies spread about himself and others in the corporate press. He said it's that bad that one can't even be sure if Idi Amin wasn't just a patriot smeared by the media. Too funny that this was then quote-mined and willingly peddled by the accused, to prove the point. Like the nonsense about the earthquake weapon. Wouldn't be surprised if the alleged statement about the moon landing was a similar argument, whose irony was lost in translation on a prejudiced Hitchens who already had a couple of Mojitos too much...

DC · 12th July 2012, 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by McHrozni

How do you call a government which violates freedoms of the press and doesn't protect journalists?

McHrozni

Originally Posted by DC

i don0t know, in German there is no specific name for it, there is in english?

Originally Posted by McHrozni

Appeal to ignorance isn't a very convincing excuse.

Let's call a spade a spade and call it a dictatorship, shall we? In German, Diktatur.

McHrozni

Originally Posted by McHrozni

Of course it's a dictatorship because of the lack of the freedom of press, among other things. I picked it because you conceded earlier it had problems with it and couldn't worm out of it all that easily. You had to divert attention and use tu queque fallacy, which, predictably, failed.

Now that we've cleared that up, do you also agree they lack an independent judiciary? You haven't addressed that at all, just ignored the issue and attempted (pathetically) to divert attention. May I assume you're conceding that point as well?

McHrozni

you used a very flawed definition, no mention of among other thigngs etc etc, your post is clear, you said i should call it a dictatorship because it has a lack in freedom of press. But then you realized that this would mean other countries that you do not consider Dictatorships would have to be called Dictatorships. and suddenly you move the goal posts. i take that as a retraction of your eralier claim

McHrozni · 12th July 2012, 03:05 AM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

Not Chavez. He was making a rhetorical point about the vicious lies spread about himself and others in the corporate press. He said it's that bad that one can't even be sure if Idi Amin wasn't just a patriot smeared by the media. Too funny that this was then quote-mined and willingly peddled by the accused, to prove the point. Like the nonsense about the earthquake weapon. Wouldn't be surprised if the alleged statement about the moon landing was a similar argument, whose irony was lost in translation on a prejudiced Hitchens who already had a couple of Mojitos too much...

Do you have a transcript of the entire speech? If so, could you link to it?

McHrozni

McHrozni · 12th July 2012, 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by DC

you used a very flawed definition, no mention of among other thigngs etc etc, your post is clear, you said i should call it a dictatorship because it has a lack in freedom of press. But then you realized that this would mean other countries that you do not consider Dictatorships would have to be called Dictatorships. and suddenly you move the goal posts. i take that as a retraction of your eralier claim

Not what I meant, but okay, I'll clarify myself. Not every country that violates freedom of the press to any extent is instantly a dictatorship, though none that violate it to a meaningful extent are democracies. Venezuela, on the other hand, is a dictatorship, based on this and on other factors as well.

Note, I'm not changing anything, I just see now how you could misunderstand what I was saying, as it was somewhat unclear.

You, on the other hand, admit Venezuela has "major issues" and lack independent judiciary, and still call it a democracy, for some odd reason. Do you also pray to Chavez?

McHrozni

Childlike Empress · 12th July 2012, 03:18 AM

Originally Posted by McHrozni

Do you have a transcript of the entire speech? If so, could you link to it?

I think it's somewhere in the thread. This crap gets repeated over and over again. He did call Ahmadinejad his brother, though, so you still have something to be outraged about.

DC · 12th July 2012, 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by McHrozni

Not what I meant, but okay, I'll clarify myself. Not every country that violates freedom of the press to any extent is instantly a dictatorship, though none that violate it to a meaningful extent are democracies. Venezuela, on the other hand, is a dictatorship, based on this and on other factors as well.

Note, I'm not changing anything, I just see now how you could misunderstand what I was saying, as it was somewhat unclear.

You, on the other hand, admit Venezuela has "major issues" and lack independent judiciary, and still call it a democracy, for some odd reason. Do you also pray to Chavez?

McHrozni

no, i never pray to anything.

i call it a democracy because despite all the problems Chavez has created with his Authoritarian behavior, it still is possible for opposition politicans to win elections and they did. and maybe they will also in the Presidental election.

and as i said earlier, i would prefer a president in Venezuela that is more like Lula, more rational and less revolutionary and more reformist than Chavez.

but yeah i know, aslong i do not call Chavez a Dictator that hates poor people i am still a Chavez fanboy that prays to him

Childlike Empress · 12th July 2012, 03:20 AM

@McHrozni: btw, your windings to find a way to justify the dictatorship label are mildly amusing but not worth further commenting on.

McHrozni · 12th July 2012, 03:35 AM

Originally Posted by DC

i call it a democracy because despite all the problems Chavez has created with his Authoritarian behavior, it still is possible for opposition politicans to win elections and they did. and maybe they will also in the Presidental election.

You have a very broad definition of democracy, which is at odds with just about every other definition of democracy known to man. By the same standard I can call Sudan a democracy, I just have to twist the requirements a bit more.

Quote:

but yeah i know, aslong i do not call Chavez a Dictator that hates poor people i am still a Chavez fanboy that prays to him

Anyone not calling him a dictator (or comparable) is either ignorant or his fanboy. I don't know where you're getting his "hates poor people" part from.

McHrozni

McHrozni · 12th July 2012, 03:36 AM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

I think it's somewhere in the thread. This crap gets repeated over and over again. He did call Ahmadinejad his brother, though, so you still have something to be outraged about.

I think Ahmed has more to be outraged with that, given that he's the president of a fairly conservative state that doesn't look too kindly at adultery.

McHrozni

DC · 12th July 2012, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by McHrozni

You have a very broad definition of democracy, which is at odds with just about every other definition of democracy known to man. By the same standard I can call Sudan a democracy, I just have to twist the requirements a bit more.

Anyone not calling him a dictator (or comparable) is either ignorant or his fanboy. I don't know where you're getting his "hates poor people" part from.

McHrozni

so CNN reporters are Chavez fanboys. didn't know that

http://topics.cnn.com/topics/hugo_chavez

McHrozni · 12th July 2012, 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by DC

you used a very flawed definition, no mention of among other thigngs etc etc, your post is clear, you said i should call it a dictatorship because it has a lack in freedom of press. But then you realized that this would mean other countries that you do not consider Dictatorships would have to be called Dictatorships. and suddenly you move the goal posts. i take that as a retraction of your eralier claim

I checked the conversation a bit, your quotes turn coated a lot of the debate. I will therefore retract my statement that I was unclear, as the lack of clarity was a direct result of your quote mining.

Yeah, you're his fanboy.

McHrozni

McHrozni · 12th July 2012, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by DC

so CNN reporters are Chavez fanboys. didn't know that

There are a lot of things you don't know, that CNN calls all heads of state by their title only is but one of them. Note, titles "president" and "dictator" aren't mutually exclusive, many called themselves just that.

McHrozni

DC · 12th July 2012, 03:47 AM

Originally Posted by McHrozni

There are a lot of things you don't know, that CNN calls all heads of state by their title only is but one of them. Note, titles "president" and "dictator" aren't mutually exclusive, many called themselves just that.

McHrozni

aah i gues you was a bit unclear then LOL.

oh dear this made my day, thanks

DC · 12th July 2012, 03:48 AM

Originally Posted by McHrozni

I checked the conversation a bit, your quotes turn coated a lot of the debate. I will therefore retract my statement that I was unclear, as the lack of clarity was a direct result of your quote mining.

Yeah, you're his fanboy.

McHrozni

yeah sure, you just can't addmit being wrong. hillarious.

McHrozni · 12th July 2012, 03:50 AM

Originally Posted by DC

aah i gues you was a bit unclear then LOL.

Nope, nothing unclear there, just your fanatical devotion to a dictator and a small talent for quote mining and taking things out of context

McHrozni

DC · 12th July 2012, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by McHrozni

Nope, nothing unclear there, just your fanatical devotion to a dictator and a small talent for quote mining and taking things out of context

McHrozni

LOL, its ok McHrozni, its ok

Childlike Empress · 12th July 2012, 03:53 AM

Originally Posted by McHrozni

Anyone not calling him a dictator (or comparable) is either ignorant or his fanboy.

Apparently that includes your president, although he managed to put in a little quip about "free and fair elections which we don't always see" into his recent statement that Venezuela poses no threat to the US.

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I AGREE

But that wasn't enough for Romney who feigns outrage about the President's naivite:

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There's your man, McHrozni. Be afraid, be very afraid, the latino-islamo world conspiracy is spreading dictatorships, next in a cinema near you.The prospect of having this guy in the White House would be creepy if I weren't convinced that the oligarchy has already decided that Obama is the far more useful puppet and will win, if necessary with the help of Diebold.

McHrozni · 12th July 2012, 03:54 AM

Originally Posted by DC

yeah sure, you just can't addmit being wrong. hillarious.

Given how much context you eliminated to make my arguments appear different that what they actually were, I strongly suspect you're just being an appendage again

How's that independent judiciary coming, by the way?

Are you still calling a guy who destroyed it a democratic president?

McHrozni

McHrozni · 12th July 2012, 03:58 AM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

Apparently that includes your president,

You apparently think I'm an American. A common mistake.
That aside, a politician using non-inflammatory language means he isn't behaving like an idiot. A commentary on an online forum, after all, is much more permissible than a statement from an official to the press. Chavez usually isn't smart enough to do so.

I have no doubt you'll try to misunderstand this as well and use another straw man

It doesn't make you smart.

McHrozni

DC · 12th July 2012, 03:58 AM

Originally Posted by McHrozni

Given how much context you eliminated to make my arguments appear different that what they actually were, I strongly suspect you're just being an appendage again

How's that independent judiciary coming, by the way?

Are you still calling a guy who destroyed it a democratic president?

McHrozni

i quoted all posts that quoted eachother.
you asked me how a county is called that has a lack of freedom of press and fails to protect journalists. i said i don't know, we don't have a word for it in German, then you claimed that Dicatatorship is the apropriate name.

which is clearly wrong and goes against all definitions of Dictatorship.
but i guess the Economist's Democracy index was compiled by Chavez fanboys. and also the Freedom of press index was compiled by Chavistas.

DC · 12th July 2012, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by McHrozni

You have a very broad definition of democracy, which is at odds with just about every other definition of democracy known to man. By the same standard I can call Sudan a democracy, I just have to twist the requirements a bit more.

Anyone not calling him a dictator (or comparable) is either ignorant or his fanboy. I don't know where you're getting his "hates poor people" part from.

McHrozni

McHrozni · 12th July 2012, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by DC

i quoted all posts that quoted eachother.

So? You changed the meaning.

Quote:

you asked me how a county is called that has a lack of freedom of press and fails to protect journalists. i said i don't know, we don't have a word for it in German, then you claimed that Dicatatorship is the apropriate name.

And then you asked why would you call him a dictator if he wasn't one, and the posts you quoted later were in reply to that post, not the first one as you deliberately made it appear in your post.

As I said, you do have a small talent for quote mining, I give you that.

McHrozni

DC · 12th July 2012, 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by McHrozni

So? You changed the meaning.

And then you asked why would you call him a dictator if he wasn't one, and the posts you quoted later were in reply to that post, not the first one as you deliberately made it appear in your post.

McHrozni

yeah with my magical abilities. its magic baby.

McHrozni · 12th July 2012, 04:13 AM

Originally Posted by DC

yeah with my magical abilities. its magic baby.

No, nothing magical, just marginal skill of derailing the discussion.

My my, Chavez must be doing poorly indeed if all defense his fanboys and girls can muster is smoke and mirrors.

McHrozni

DC · 12th July 2012, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by McHrozni

No, nothing magical, just marginal skill of derailing the discussion.

My my, Chavez must be doing poorly indeed if all defense his fanboys and girls can muster is smoke and mirrors.

McHrozni

hey something we can agree on, Chavez is doing poorly

i hope i dont accidently change the meaning here....

Childlike Empress · 12th July 2012, 04:16 AM

Originally Posted by McHrozni

That aside, a politician using non-inflammatory language means he isn't behaving like an idiot. A commentary on an online forum, after all, is much more permissible than a statement from an official to the press. Chavez usually isn't smart enough to do so.

He just doesn't care, as he explicitly stated. He knows that all diplomacy wouldn't change the treatment he gets in the western corporate press, as long as the independent policies stay the same. Or as he said it, he could dress like the pope praying for world peace day and night, with no effect. So he decided long time ago to have some fun on occasion, and to share the smell of sulphur with us.

He still can't sing, though...

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I AGREE

McHrozni · 12th July 2012, 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

He just doesn't care, as he explicitly stated. He knows that all diplomacy wouldn't change the treatment he gets in the western corporate press, as long as the independent policies stay the same.

Have you ever heard the term "action speaks louder than words"? Obviously Chavismo by itself is a disaster enough without inflammatory language. Still, stirring up controversy because he "doesn't care" is a bad policy. He's either an idiot, or deliberately making external enemies to eliminate opposition, I can't decide which.

If it's the latter ignoring him is the way to go.

McHrozni

trustbutverify · 12th July 2012, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

Not Chavez. He was making a rhetorical point about the vicious lies spread about himself and others in the corporate press. He said it's that bad that one can't even be sure if Idi Amin wasn't just a patriot smeared by the media. Too funny that this was then quote-mined and willingly peddled by the accused, to prove the point. Like the nonsense about the earthquake weapon. Wouldn't be surprised if the alleged statement about the moon landing was a similar argument, whose irony was lost in translation on a prejudiced Hitchens who already had a couple of Mojitos too much...

And the apologists shift into fantasy mode!

Beerina · 12th July 2012, 08:02 AM

The jackass just put the third leg of dictatorship in place.

1. Jail opposition and journalists on trumped up charges.
2. Gain the "emergency" power to pass laws by decree.

and now...

wait for it....

3. Outlaw guns and ammunition.

You know, that second amendment thing in the US some here fancy is a quaint anachronism that has outlived its usefulness?

Virus · 12th July 2012, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

He just doesn't care, as he explicitly stated. He knows that all diplomacy wouldn't change the treatment he gets in the western corporate press, as long as the independent policies stay the same. Or as he said it, he could dress like the pope praying for world peace day and night, with no effect. So he decided long time ago to have some fun on occasion, and to share the smell of sulphur with us.

He still can't sing, though...

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I AGREE

Was he just having a laugh when he said 9/11 was an inside job?

DC · 12th July 2012, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

The jackass just put the third leg of dictatorship in place.

1. Jail opposition and journalists on trumped up charges.
2. Gain the "emergency" power to pass laws by decree.

and now...

wait for it....

3. Outlaw guns and ammunition.

You know, that second amendment thing in the US some here fancy is a quaint anachronism that has outlived its usefulness?

not everyone see it as a step towards Dictatorship

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-18288430

Childlike Empress · 12th July 2012, 10:13 AM

Oh, trying to do something about the murder rates, eh? Ziggurat will love it.

Originally Posted by Beerina

2. Gain the "emergency" power to pass laws by decree.

Problem with these things is that the media laments when they happen but never inform when they end. You'd have to read this thread to know that it was a temporary right (in certain areas of policy making) and is a thing of the past now. Since what, three years?

Childlike Empress · 12th July 2012, 03:16 PM

Continued mining youtube a bit. There are a couple of essential documentaries linked on the first pages of this thread, but here's one I found which I didn't know about but would recommend to those new to the topic. It's a French production (with English narration and subtitles) and the interesting thing is that it was released in early 2002, shortly before the failed coup attempt happened (for details on that, see "The Revolution will not be televised"), so it only covers the first three years of Chavez' presidency and what went before that. And among the critics interviewed is the then mayor Capriles who now, a decade and numerous elections later, rather chancelessly, runs against Chavez in the upcoming presidential election. Quality.

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trustbutverify · 12th July 2012, 03:35 PM

The hits just keep on coming: Uncle Hugo thinks that free markets might have destroyed Martian Civilization.

Quote:

I have always said, heard, that it would not be strange that there had been civilization on Mars, but maybe capitalism arrived there, imperialism arrived and finished off the planet," Chavez said in speech to mark World Water Day.

Childlike Empress · 12th July 2012, 04:40 PM

The months leading up to October will be fun, and the crusaders and the nazi-right will deliver us the gems of the desperate propaganda war - at face value.

edit: oh, I see it's already over a year old, tsk tsk - they'll do even "better" from a humorous point of view, believe me.

Childlike Empress · 12th July 2012, 06:22 PM

I feel I should describe what's so funny to close the gap to potential interested readers: An honest Reuters headline about this statement, which unfortunately for them would stop making it a news item, would not be "Chavez says capitalism may have ended life on Mars", but "Chavez thinks capitalism and imperialism are threatening the survival of civilization on Earth"

McHrozni · 13th July 2012, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...897c0442ad.gif

The months leading up to October will be fun, and the crusaders and the nazi-right will deliver us the gems of the desperate propaganda war - at face value.

edit: oh, I see it's already over a year old, tsk tsk - they'll do even "better" from a humorous point of view, believe me.

We do agree on one thing, the next 12 weeks will be much fun.

McHrozni

Virus · 13th July 2012, 09:39 PM

This is how democracy works under the Chavez regime.

Chavez's right-hand man lost an election in Miranda to an opposition leader Capriles. So Chavez punished the district by closing down 19 of Miranda's hospitals, 250 clinics and seized highways, airports and acres of land. 200 million was slashed from Miranda's budget and several thousand state workers became federal employees.

Sucre is one of the poorest areas of Venezuela where people build houses out of whatever they can scrape together. They voted against Chavez and elected Carlos Ocariz. The very day after the election, Chavez punished the district by taking away sixteen garbage trucks and cutting off their water.

Even though Chavez does his best to hamstring the opposition's ability to govern, Ocariz was able to accomplish more with less than the previous Chavista administration due to the sheer amount of inefficiency and waste. Ocariz reduced administrative expenses while increasing the size and pay of the police force. The homicide rate went down by 25%. He also got water deliveries and overhauled the pumping system to get water back to the people of Ocariz.

Of course to even campaign against Chavez means being stymied at every turn. You'll be hauled off to court on trumped up charges. You'll be disqualified from fund-raising. You'll be intimidated by Chavista boot-boys. You'll have to compete with fake opposition parties that are fronts for the Chavez regime.

Good for the poor? The only thing Hugo Chavez is good for is being a big, fat douchebag.

trustbutverify · 13th July 2012, 11:33 PM

Well, those wretchedly poor Venezuelans had to be taught that disloyalty has consequences. It was for their own good.

12th July 2012, 02:51 AM	#881
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566	Originally Posted by DC yeah i notices your move of goalpost but i ignore them. you called Venezuela a dictatorship do to a lack of freedom of press, now that you realize what a dumb claim it was you moved the goalposts. very telling Of course it's a dictatorship because of the lack of the freedom of press, among other things. I picked it because you conceded earlier it had problems with it and couldn't worm out of it all that easily. You had to divert attention and use tu queque fallacy, which, predictably, failed. Now that we've cleared that up, do you also agree they lack an independent judiciary? You haven't addressed that at all, just ignored the issue and attempted (pathetically) to divert attention. May I assume you're conceding that point as well? McHrozni
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566

12th July 2012, 03:00 AM	#882
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 7,840	Originally Posted by trustbutverify The Great Chavez expresses his progressive and humane thoughts on Idi Amin: About former Ugandan President Idi Amin, Mr Chavez said: “We thought he was a cannibal… I don’t know, maybe he was a great nationalist, a patriot.” Idi Amin seized power in 1971. About 300,000 people were killed during his eight-year rule. I have to wonder what type of person admires a monster like Idi Amin. Not Chavez. He was making a rhetorical point about the vicious lies spread about himself and others in the corporate press. He said it's that bad that one can't even be sure if Idi Amin wasn't just a patriot smeared by the media. Too funny that this was then quote-mined and willingly peddled by the accused, to prove the point. Like the nonsense about the earthquake weapon. Wouldn't be surprised if the alleged statement about the moon landing was a similar argument, whose irony was lost in translation on a prejudiced Hitchens who already had a couple of Mojitos too much...
	__________________ Breaking The Set Last edited by Childlike Empress; 12th July 2012 at 04:40 AM. Reason: fixed link

12th July 2012, 03:03 AM	#883
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,674	Originally Posted by McHrozni How do you call a government which violates freedoms of the press and doesn't protect journalists? McHrozni Originally Posted by DC i don0t know, in German there is no specific name for it, there is in english? Originally Posted by McHrozni Appeal to ignorance isn't a very convincing excuse. Let's call a spade a spade and call it a dictatorship, shall we? In German, Diktatur. McHrozni Originally Posted by McHrozni Of course it's a dictatorship because of the lack of the freedom of press, among other things. I picked it because you conceded earlier it had problems with it and couldn't worm out of it all that easily. You had to divert attention and use tu queque fallacy, which, predictably, failed. Now that we've cleared that up, do you also agree they lack an independent judiciary? You haven't addressed that at all, just ignored the issue and attempted (pathetically) to divert attention. May I assume you're conceding that point as well? McHrozni you used a very flawed definition, no mention of among other thigngs etc etc, your post is clear, you said i should call it a dictatorship because it has a lack in freedom of press. But then you realized that this would mean other countries that you do not consider Dictatorships would have to be called Dictatorships. and suddenly you move the goal posts. i take that as a retraction of your eralier claim
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12th July 2012, 03:05 AM	#884
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress Not Chavez. He was making a rhetorical point about the vicious lies spread about himself and others in the corporate press. He said it's that bad that one can't even be sure if Idi Amin wasn't just a patriot smeared by the media. Too funny that this was then quote-mined and willingly peddled by the accused, to prove the point. Like the nonsense about the earthquake weapon. Wouldn't be surprised if the alleged statement about the moon landing was a similar argument, whose irony was lost in translation on a prejudiced Hitchens who already had a couple of Mojitos too much... Do you have a transcript of the entire speech? If so, could you link to it? McHrozni
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566

12th July 2012, 03:11 AM	#885
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566	Originally Posted by DC you used a very flawed definition, no mention of among other thigngs etc etc, your post is clear, you said i should call it a dictatorship because it has a lack in freedom of press. But then you realized that this would mean other countries that you do not consider Dictatorships would have to be called Dictatorships. and suddenly you move the goal posts. i take that as a retraction of your eralier claim Not what I meant, but okay, I'll clarify myself. Not every country that violates freedom of the press to any extent is instantly a dictatorship, though none that violate it to a meaningful extent are democracies. Venezuela, on the other hand, is a dictatorship, based on this and on other factors as well. Note, I'm not changing anything, I just see now how you could misunderstand what I was saying, as it was somewhat unclear. You, on the other hand, admit Venezuela has "major issues" and lack independent judiciary, and still call it a democracy, for some odd reason. Do you also pray to Chavez? McHrozni
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566	Last edited by McHrozni; 12th July 2012 at 03:13 AM.

12th July 2012, 03:18 AM	#886
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 7,840	Originally Posted by McHrozni Do you have a transcript of the entire speech? If so, could you link to it? I think it's somewhere in the thread. This crap gets repeated over and over again. He did call Ahmadinejad his brother, though, so you still have something to be outraged about.
	__________________ Breaking The Set

12th July 2012, 03:19 AM	#887
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,674	Originally Posted by McHrozni Not what I meant, but okay, I'll clarify myself. Not every country that violates freedom of the press to any extent is instantly a dictatorship, though none that violate it to a meaningful extent are democracies. Venezuela, on the other hand, is a dictatorship, based on this and on other factors as well. Note, I'm not changing anything, I just see now how you could misunderstand what I was saying, as it was somewhat unclear. You, on the other hand, admit Venezuela has "major issues" and lack independent judiciary, and still call it a democracy, for some odd reason. Do you also pray to Chavez? McHrozni no, i never pray to anything. i call it a democracy because despite all the problems Chavez has created with his Authoritarian behavior, it still is possible for opposition politicans to win elections and they did. and maybe they will also in the Presidental election. and as i said earlier, i would prefer a president in Venezuela that is more like Lula, more rational and less revolutionary and more reformist than Chavez. but yeah i know, aslong i do not call Chavez a Dictator that hates poor people i am still a Chavez fanboy that prays to him
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12th July 2012, 03:20 AM	#888
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 7,840	@McHrozni: btw, your windings to find a way to justify the dictatorship label are mildly amusing but not worth further commenting on.
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12th July 2012, 03:35 AM	#889
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566	Originally Posted by DC i call it a democracy because despite all the problems Chavez has created with his Authoritarian behavior, it still is possible for opposition politicans to win elections and they did. and maybe they will also in the Presidental election. You have a very broad definition of democracy, which is at odds with just about every other definition of democracy known to man. By the same standard I can call Sudan a democracy, I just have to twist the requirements a bit more. Quote: but yeah i know, aslong i do not call Chavez a Dictator that hates poor people i am still a Chavez fanboy that prays to him Anyone not calling him a dictator (or comparable) is either ignorant or his fanboy. I don't know where you're getting his "hates poor people" part from. McHrozni
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566

12th July 2012, 03:36 AM	#890
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress I think it's somewhere in the thread. This crap gets repeated over and over again. He did call Ahmadinejad his brother, though, so you still have something to be outraged about. I think Ahmed has more to be outraged with that, given that he's the president of a fairly conservative state that doesn't look too kindly at adultery. McHrozni
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566

12th July 2012, 03:39 AM	#891
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,674	Originally Posted by McHrozni You have a very broad definition of democracy, which is at odds with just about every other definition of democracy known to man. By the same standard I can call Sudan a democracy, I just have to twist the requirements a bit more. Anyone not calling him a dictator (or comparable) is either ignorant or his fanboy. I don't know where you're getting his "hates poor people" part from. McHrozni so CNN reporters are Chavez fanboys. didn't know that http://topics.cnn.com/topics/hugo_chavez
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12th July 2012, 03:41 AM	#892
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566	Originally Posted by DC you used a very flawed definition, no mention of among other thigngs etc etc, your post is clear, you said i should call it a dictatorship because it has a lack in freedom of press. But then you realized that this would mean other countries that you do not consider Dictatorships would have to be called Dictatorships. and suddenly you move the goal posts. i take that as a retraction of your eralier claim I checked the conversation a bit, your quotes turn coated a lot of the debate. I will therefore retract my statement that I was unclear, as the lack of clarity was a direct result of your quote mining. Yeah, you're his fanboy. McHrozni
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566

12th July 2012, 03:46 AM	#893
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566	Originally Posted by DC so CNN reporters are Chavez fanboys. didn't know that There are a lot of things you don't know, that CNN calls all heads of state by their title only is but one of them. Note, titles "president" and "dictator" aren't mutually exclusive, many called themselves just that. McHrozni
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12th July 2012, 03:47 AM	#894
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,674	Originally Posted by McHrozni There are a lot of things you don't know, that CNN calls all heads of state by their title only is but one of them. Note, titles "president" and "dictator" aren't mutually exclusive, many called themselves just that. McHrozni aah i gues you was a bit unclear then LOL. oh dear this made my day, thanks
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12th July 2012, 03:48 AM	#895
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,674	Originally Posted by McHrozni I checked the conversation a bit, your quotes turn coated a lot of the debate. I will therefore retract my statement that I was unclear, as the lack of clarity was a direct result of your quote mining. Yeah, you're his fanboy. McHrozni yeah sure, you just can't addmit being wrong. hillarious.
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12th July 2012, 03:50 AM	#896
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566	Originally Posted by DC aah i gues you was a bit unclear then LOL. Nope, nothing unclear there, just your fanatical devotion to a dictator and a small talent for quote mining and taking things out of context McHrozni
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566

12th July 2012, 03:51 AM	#897
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,674	Originally Posted by McHrozni Nope, nothing unclear there, just your fanatical devotion to a dictator and a small talent for quote mining and taking things out of context McHrozni LOL, its ok McHrozni, its ok
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12th July 2012, 03:54 AM	#899
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566	Originally Posted by DC yeah sure, you just can't addmit being wrong. hillarious. Given how much context you eliminated to make my arguments appear different that what they actually were, I strongly suspect you're just being an appendage again How's that independent judiciary coming, by the way? Are you still calling a guy who destroyed it a democratic president? McHrozni
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566

12th July 2012, 03:58 AM	#900
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress Apparently that includes your president, You apparently think I'm an American. A common mistake. That aside, a politician using non-inflammatory language means he isn't behaving like an idiot. A commentary on an online forum, after all, is much more permissible than a statement from an official to the press. Chavez usually isn't smart enough to do so. I have no doubt you'll try to misunderstand this as well and use another straw man It doesn't make you smart. McHrozni
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566	Last edited by McHrozni; 12th July 2012 at 04:00 AM.

12th July 2012, 03:58 AM	#901
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,674	Originally Posted by McHrozni Given how much context you eliminated to make my arguments appear different that what they actually were, I strongly suspect you're just being an appendage again How's that independent judiciary coming, by the way? Are you still calling a guy who destroyed it a democratic president? McHrozni i quoted all posts that quoted eachother. you asked me how a county is called that has a lack of freedom of press and fails to protect journalists. i said i don't know, we don't have a word for it in German, then you claimed that Dicatatorship is the apropriate name. which is clearly wrong and goes against all definitions of Dictatorship. but i guess the Economist's Democracy index was compiled by Chavez fanboys. and also the Freedom of press index was compiled by Chavistas.
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12th July 2012, 04:00 AM	#902
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,674	Originally Posted by McHrozni You have a very broad definition of democracy, which is at odds with just about every other definition of democracy known to man. By the same standard I can call Sudan a democracy, I just have to twist the requirements a bit more. Anyone not calling him a dictator (or comparable) is either ignorant or his fanboy. I don't know where you're getting his "hates poor people" part from. McHrozni
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12th July 2012, 04:01 AM	#903
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566	Originally Posted by DC i quoted all posts that quoted eachother. So? You changed the meaning. Quote: you asked me how a county is called that has a lack of freedom of press and fails to protect journalists. i said i don't know, we don't have a word for it in German, then you claimed that Dicatatorship is the apropriate name. And then you asked why would you call him a dictator if he wasn't one, and the posts you quoted later were in reply to *that* post, not the first one as you deliberately made it appear in your post. As I said, you do have a small talent for quote mining, I give you that. McHrozni
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566	Last edited by McHrozni; 12th July 2012 at 04:03 AM.

12th July 2012, 04:03 AM	#904
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,674	Originally Posted by McHrozni So? You changed the meaning. And then you asked why would you call him a dictator if he wasn't one, and the posts you quoted later were in reply to *that* post, not the first one as you deliberately made it appear in your post. McHrozni yeah with my magical abilities. its magic baby.
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12th July 2012, 04:13 AM	#905
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566	Originally Posted by DC yeah with my magical abilities. its magic baby. No, nothing magical, just marginal skill of derailing the discussion. My my, Chavez must be doing poorly indeed if all defense his fanboys and girls can muster is smoke and mirrors. McHrozni
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566

12th July 2012, 04:15 AM	#906
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,674	Originally Posted by McHrozni No, nothing magical, just marginal skill of derailing the discussion. My my, Chavez must be doing poorly indeed if all defense his fanboys and girls can muster is smoke and mirrors. McHrozni hey something we can agree on, Chavez is doing poorly i hope i dont accidently change the meaning here....
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12th July 2012, 04:38 AM	#908
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress He just doesn't care, as he explicitly stated. He knows that all diplomacy wouldn't change the treatment he gets in the western corporate press, as long as the independent policies stay the same. Have you ever heard the term "action speaks louder than words"? Obviously Chavismo by itself is a disaster enough without inflammatory language. Still, stirring up controversy because he "doesn't care" is a bad policy. He's either an idiot, or deliberately making external enemies to eliminate opposition, I can't decide which. If it's the latter ignoring him is the way to go. McHrozni
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12th July 2012, 07:52 AM	#909
trustbutverify Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,082	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress Not Chavez. He was making a rhetorical point about the vicious lies spread about himself and others in the corporate press. He said it's that bad that one can't even be sure if Idi Amin wasn't just a patriot smeared by the media. Too funny that this was then quote-mined and willingly peddled by the accused, to prove the point. Like the nonsense about the earthquake weapon. Wouldn't be surprised if the alleged statement about the moon landing was a similar argument, whose irony was lost in translation on a prejudiced Hitchens who already had a couple of Mojitos too much... And the apologists shift into fantasy mode!
	Last edited by trustbutverify; 12th July 2012 at 08:07 AM.

12th July 2012, 08:02 AM	#910
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	The jackass just put the third leg of dictatorship in place. 1. Jail opposition and journalists on trumped up charges. 2. Gain the "emergency" power to pass laws by decree. and now... wait for it.... 3. Outlaw guns and ammunition. You know, that second amendment thing in the US some here fancy is a quaint anachronism that has outlived its usefulness?
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? Last edited by Beerina; 12th July 2012 at 08:05 AM.

12th July 2012, 09:59 AM	#912
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,674	Originally Posted by Beerina The jackass just put the third leg of dictatorship in place. 1. Jail opposition and journalists on trumped up charges. 2. Gain the "emergency" power to pass laws by decree. and now... wait for it.... 3. Outlaw guns and ammunition. You know, that second amendment thing in the US some here fancy is a quaint anachronism that has outlived its usefulness? not everyone see it as a step towards Dictatorship http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-18288430
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12th July 2012, 10:13 AM	#913
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 7,840	Oh, trying to do something about the murder rates, eh? Ziggurat will love it. Originally Posted by Beerina 2. Gain the "emergency" power to pass laws by decree. Problem with these things is that the media laments when they happen but never inform when they end. You'd have to read this thread to know that it was a temporary right (in certain areas of policy making) and is a thing of the past now. Since what, three years?
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12th July 2012, 03:35 PM	#915
trustbutverify Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,082	The hits just keep on coming: Uncle Hugo thinks that free markets might have destroyed Martian Civilization. Quote: I have always said, heard, that it would not be strange that there had been civilization on Mars, but maybe capitalism arrived there, imperialism arrived and finished off the planet," Chavez said in speech to mark World Water Day.

12th July 2012, 04:40 PM	#916
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 7,840	The months leading up to October will be fun, and the crusaders and the nazi-right will deliver us the gems of the desperate propaganda war - at face value. edit: oh, I see it's already over a year old, tsk tsk - they'll do even "better" from a humorous point of view, believe me.
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12th July 2012, 06:22 PM	#917
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 7,840	I feel I should describe what's so funny to close the gap to potential interested readers: An honest Reuters headline about this statement, which unfortunately for them would stop making it a news item, would not be "Chavez says capitalism may have ended life on Mars", but "Chavez thinks capitalism and imperialism are threatening the survival of civilization on Earth"
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13th July 2012, 12:07 AM	#918
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,566	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...897c0442ad.gif The months leading up to October will be fun, and the crusaders and the nazi-right will deliver us the gems of the desperate propaganda war - at face value. edit: oh, I see it's already over a year old, tsk tsk - they'll do even "better" from a humorous point of view, believe me. We do agree on one thing, the next 12 weeks will be much fun. McHrozni
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13th July 2012, 09:39 PM	#919
Virus Master Templar Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 6,203	This is how democracy works under the Chavez regime. Chavez's right-hand man lost an election in Miranda to an opposition leader Capriles. So Chavez punished the district by closing down 19 of Miranda's hospitals, 250 clinics and seized highways, airports and acres of land. 200 million was slashed from Miranda's budget and several thousand state workers became federal employees. Sucre is one of the poorest areas of Venezuela where people build houses out of whatever they can scrape together. They voted against Chavez and elected Carlos Ocariz. The very day after the election, Chavez punished the district by taking away sixteen garbage trucks and cutting off their water. Even though Chavez does his best to hamstring the opposition's ability to govern, Ocariz was able to accomplish more with less than the previous Chavista administration due to the sheer amount of inefficiency and waste. Ocariz reduced administrative expenses while increasing the size and pay of the police force. The homicide rate went down by 25%. He also got water deliveries and overhauled the pumping system to get water back to the people of Ocariz. Of course to even campaign against Chavez means being stymied at every turn. You'll be hauled off to court on trumped up charges. You'll be disqualified from fund-raising. You'll be intimidated by Chavista boot-boys. You'll have to compete with fake opposition parties that are fronts for the Chavez regime. Good for the poor? The only thing Hugo Chavez is good for is being a big, fat douchebag.
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