How come we are well off when no one actually does any work? - Page 3

epeos76 · 19th July 2012, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by PixyMisa

That's a bit simplistic. That farmer works fewer hours and is more skilled than one from a hundred years ago, as well as being vastly more productive.

But he does need a supply chain for fuel and parts for his machinery, fertiliser and pesticides and so on.

He (or she) also really needs crop insurance to protect the giant capital investment generally required to be this productive against bad years.

Dymanic · 19th July 2012, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by marplots

It reminds me of how prisoners or soldiers might be kept occupied. To avoid the appearance of sloth, they would be commanded to dig holes in the morning and fill those holes in in the afternoon. A clear example of being productive for productivity's sake.

I don't think avoiding the appearance of sloth ever had anything to do with it. It's a form of punishment, the whole point being that it is a completely unproductive activity, adding an element of psychological torture to the already grueling physical demands. Hard labor can be unpleasant enough without being forced to it knowing all the while that everything you're doing is completely pointless.

anglolawyer · 19th July 2012, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

You are ranting against administration because you can give examples of bureaucratic waste. Since that seems to come part and parcel of any government, that is hardly exciting news.

Examples of waste don't mean that we can do away with administration.

Did I say we could?

lomiller · 19th July 2012, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by anglolawyer

I can imagine that. I don't say these are useless things to be doing just that they don't result in anything you can wear, eat etc.

It takes ~1% of the labour force to feed everyone, this is a tiny fraction of what it was 200 years ago.

It takes ~10% of the labour force to produce all the goods everyone uses. This is also a small fraction of what it took 50 years ago dispite the fact we use a lot more stuff.

Those people in those offices do 2 things. First they help create the efficiencies that allow us to make so much more food and goods with fewer workers. In addition they provide a whole range4s of services that people want to have, sure you could put them to work making stuff, but at a certain point I have most of the stuff I need and it’s these services that make my life better and are therefore the things I’m willing to pay for.

Steve · 19th July 2012, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Loads of people do loads of things. Last month I paid a guy to chop down a tree. Several times a year I pay someone to service or MOT one of my cars. I pay people to feed me, bring me beer. Indirectly I pay people to bring food to supermarkets (and to manage people to do this)

Originally Posted by marplots

I think I read that the washing machine freed up the single greatest chunk of time in a woman's day. (I suspect microwave cooking or fast food probably was a strong competitor.) So she spends that time doing what? It's a damn disease, how bad we are at spending that gift of time.

Originally Posted by The Don

Well right now Mrs Don is outside painting the fences and gates while the washing machine is doing its thing.

Much snippage above to make a silly point - The Don, you are obviiously not using Mrs. Don's free time effectively if you have to pay someone to bring you beer.

Toke · 19th July 2012, 05:45 PM

My experience with public bureaucracy is calling the maritime administration regarding a missing health certiciface and getting a new one in the mail the next day. Calling the tax office takes a while to get through the answer machine, but the people clearly give the impression of being there to help the taxpayers.

My job involves maintenance of a seagoing vessel, and generally being around in case something goes wrong. As the vessel is paid £10.000+ a day it pays to have someone sitting around just in case there is a breakdown.

The Don · 20th July 2012, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by Steve

Much snippage above to make a silly point - The Don, you are obviiously not using Mrs. Don's free time effectively if you have to pay someone to bring you beer.

Steve at The Fountain gets a bit cross when the punters help themselves to beer

19th July 2012, 07:33 AM	#81
epeos76 Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 300	Originally Posted by PixyMisa That's a bit simplistic. That farmer works fewer hours and is more skilled than one from a hundred years ago, as well as being vastly more productive. But he does need a supply chain for fuel and parts for his machinery, fertiliser and pesticides and so on. He (or she) also really needs crop insurance to protect the giant capital investment generally required to be this productive against bad years.
epeos76 Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 300

19th July 2012, 07:42 AM	#82
Dymanic Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 4,732	Originally Posted by marplots It reminds me of how prisoners or soldiers might be kept occupied. To avoid the appearance of sloth, they would be commanded to dig holes in the morning and fill those holes in in the afternoon. A clear example of being productive for productivity's sake. I don't think avoiding the appearance of sloth ever had anything to do with it. It's a form of punishment, the whole point being that it is a completely unproductive activity, adding an element of psychological torture to the already grueling physical demands. Hard labor can be unpleasant enough without being forced to it knowing all the while that everything you're doing is completely pointless.
Dymanic Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 4,732

19th July 2012, 08:25 AM	#84
lomiller Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,864	Originally Posted by anglolawyer I can imagine that. I don't say these are useless things to be doing just that they don't result in anything you can wear, eat etc. It takes ~1% of the labour force to feed everyone, this is a tiny fraction of what it was 200 years ago. It takes ~10% of the labour force to produce all the goods everyone uses. This is also a small fraction of what it took 50 years ago dispite the fact we use a lot more stuff. Those people in those offices do 2 things. First they help create the efficiencies that allow us to make so much more food and goods with fewer workers. In addition they provide a whole range4s of services that people want to have, sure you could put them to work making stuff, but at a certain point I have most of the stuff I need and it’s these services that make my life better and are therefore the things I’m willing to pay for.
lomiller Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,864	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

19th July 2012, 11:04 AM	#85
Steve Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2005 Location: Surrey BC Posts: 1,331	Originally Posted by The Don Loads of people do loads of things. Last month I paid a guy to chop down a tree. Several times a year I pay someone to service or MOT one of my cars. I pay people to feed me, bring me beer. Indirectly I pay people to bring food to supermarkets (and to manage people to do this) Originally Posted by marplots I think I read that the washing machine freed up the single greatest chunk of time in a woman's day. (I suspect microwave cooking or fast food probably was a strong competitor.) So she spends that time doing what? It's a damn disease, how bad we are at spending that gift of time. Originally Posted by The Don Well right now Mrs Don is outside painting the fences and gates while the washing machine is doing its thing. Much snippage above to make a silly point - The Don, you are obviiously not using Mrs. Don's free time effectively if you have to pay someone to bring you beer.
	__________________ Formerly known as dogguy. Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

19th July 2012, 05:45 PM	#86
Toke Godless Socialist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 7,600	My experience with public bureaucracy is calling the maritime administration regarding a missing health certiciface and getting a new one in the mail the next day. Calling the tax office takes a while to get through the answer machine, but the people clearly give the impression of being there to help the taxpayers. My job involves maintenance of a seagoing vessel, and generally being around in case something goes wrong. As the vessel is paid £10.000+ a day it pays to have someone sitting around just in case there is a breakdown.
	__________________ From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx.

19th July 2012, 07:49 AM	#83
anglolawyer Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: surrey, england Posts: 3,238	Originally Posted by psionl0 You are ranting against administration because you can give examples of bureaucratic waste. Since that seems to come part and parcel of any government, that is hardly exciting news. Examples of waste don't mean that we can do away with administration. Did I say we could?

20th July 2012, 06:19 AM	#87
The Don Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cymru Posts: 8,238	Originally Posted by Steve Much snippage above to make a silly point - The Don, you are obviiously not using Mrs. Don's free time effectively if you have to pay someone to bring you beer. Steve at The Fountain gets a bit cross when the punters help themselves to beer