USS Miami fire was arson

Ranb · 23rd July 2012, 10:20 AM

Earlier this year the USS Miami caught fire while in shipyard for repairs. The fire took days to put out and cost hundreds of millions in damage. Early reports were that hot material was sucked up into a vacuum cleaner which later started on fire after it was put away in a stateroom being used for storage.

http://www.norwichbulletin.com/news/...#axzz21Syu1LT7

It seems a shipyard painter set that fire and another one according to various news sources.

Quote:

The submarine was in dry dock for an overhaul at the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard in Kittery. Court documents say Fury was assigned to strip paint in the torpedo room. He first denied involvement in the fires, then later acknowledged his involvement in the major fire when it was clear he was failing a polygraph examination, federal investigators say.

He told federal investigators his anxiety also prompted him to set the May 23 fire in a state room of the submarine. He told investigators he set fire to a bag of rags atop one of the bunks.

Ranb

Sam.I.Am · 23rd July 2012, 01:04 PM

In my experience shipyard painters are the dumbest and laziest of all of the yardbirds that I dealt with (note that this was in Newport News and not Portsmouth but from what I've heard it's the same everywhere). It's not like the work is hard (it's just tedious) if it's metal or insulation, paint it. If it's rubber or formica, don't paint it. That one might start a fire in order to leave work early doesn't really surprise me at all.

BenBurch · 23rd July 2012, 01:30 PM

30 years ago we would have assumed he was a Red saboteur.

Polaris · 23rd July 2012, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

30 years ago we would have assumed he was a Red saboteur.

So he must be Muslim Brotherhood!

theprestige · 23rd July 2012, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

30 years ago we would have assumed he was a Red saboteur.

Originally Posted by BenBurch

30 years ago we would have assumed he was a Red saboteur.

30 years ago--1982--that would probably have been an appropriate possibility to investigate.

Indeed, I wouldn't be suprised if a cursory look at possible ties to Russia (or China, more likely) were a part of the investigation even today.

Originally Posted by Polaris

So he must be Muslim Brotherhood!

Enh. The US submarine force probably isn't even strategically interesting to the "Muslim Brotherhood", let alone strategically relevant.

They're probably much more interested in infiltrating the US intelligence and diplomatic apparatus.

BenBurch · 23rd July 2012, 02:31 PM

Agree with both, theprestige.

Sam.I.Am · 23rd July 2012, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

30 years ago--1982--that would probably have been an appropriate possibility to investigate.

Indeed, I wouldn't be suprised if a cursory look at possible ties to Russia (or China, more likely) were a part of the investigation even today.

Even then I highly doubt that they would want the diplomatic poop storm that would result from any such ties. Besides, what they would want is to get their hands on the equipment and reverse engineer it instead of sabotage a whole boat.

Quote:

Enh. The US submarine force probably isn't even strategically interesting to the "Muslim Brotherhood", let alone strategically relevant.

They're probably much more interested in infiltrating the US intelligence and diplomatic apparatus.

Pretty much this although I would add that Iran would most certainly be interested in getting a good peek at what's inside our boats and/or getting a good understanding of our tactics and procedures. But again there's a huge difference between espionage and sabotage just from a diplomatic perspective.

Corsair 115 · 23rd July 2012, 05:11 PM

The guy's last name is Fury? Given the incident he's alleged to be involved with he seems aptly named!

sentry579 · 23rd July 2012, 05:34 PM

I was digging through some old newspaper articles and came across several stories of sabotage at US military bases, some unsolved. Most of the stories lacked much detail, but none suggested foreign aggressors or domestic spies. I'm guessing civilian reporters are lucky to get nay details at all, but it's not surprising that few of these incidents get reported. Especially now, with our 24/7 scaremongering news media.

Toke · 23rd July 2012, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am

In my experience shipyard painters are the dumbest and laziest of all of the yardbirds that I dealt with (note that this was in Newport News and not Portsmouth but from what I've heard it's the same everywhere). It's not like the work is hard (it's just tedious) if it's metal or insulation, paint it. If it's rubber or formica, don't paint it. That one might start a fire in order to leave work early doesn't really surprise me at all.

I have heard assorted horror stories on what difference a good inspector on the paint job in the yard can mean for future maintenance of the paintjob/rust.

shemp · 23rd July 2012, 07:34 PM

It's gonna take him a long time to work off $400 million. Maybe they can make him CEO of Bain Capital and garnish his wages.

Sam.I.Am · 23rd July 2012, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by Toke

I have heard assorted horror stories on what difference a good inspector on the paint job in the yard can mean for future maintenance of the paintjob/rust.

My biggest problem was the idiots who painted sound isolation mounts. "Hey dummy, that will act like an electrical short for sound and then people that we don't like can find us.". I can't begin to tell you how many sound mounts that I've had to either repair or replace because of lousy paint jobs, not because its classified but because there were so many I lost count. Poor prep work was the least of my problems.

The Central Scrutinizer · 23rd July 2012, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Polaris

So he must be Muslim Brotherhood!

Or a Florida State fan.

Finn McR · 23rd July 2012, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am

My biggest problem was the idiots who painted sound isolation mounts. "Hey dummy, that will act like an electrical short for sound and then people that we don't like can find us.". I can't begin to tell you how many sound mounts that I've had to either repair or replace because of lousy paint jobs, not because its classified but because there were so many I lost count. Poor prep work was the least of my problems.

Why not color-code the original parts in the design and original construction phase then?

"Paint all of the grey bits, and only the grey bits, with grey paint. Paint the yellow bits, and only the yellow bits, with yellow paint. If it is not painted now, don't paint it."

Sam.I.Am · 23rd July 2012, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Finn McR

Why not color-code the original parts in the design and original construction phase then?

"Paint all of the grey bits, and only the grey bits, with grey paint. Paint the yellow bits, and only the yellow bits, with yellow paint. If it is not painted now, don't paint it."

You would think that that would work wouldn't you? You would be wrong. The vast majority of painting that they do in an overhaul is painting over stuff that's already been painted (several years earlier and a bit worse for the wear of course but still painted). It doesn't matter, they are just lazy, sloppy and don't really give a damn about it other than getting that paycheck and being the first ones out the gate at the whistle and the first ones to belly up to the bar at lunchtime.

PS13 · 24th July 2012, 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

Or a Florida State fan.

This.

Silly Nole...

Toke · 24th July 2012, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am

You would think that that would work wouldn't you? You would be wrong. The vast majority of painting that they do in an overhaul is painting over stuff that's already been painted (several years earlier and a bit worse for the wear of course but still painted). It doesn't matter, they are just lazy, sloppy and don't really give a damn about it other than getting that paycheck and being the first ones out the gate at the whistle and the first ones to belly up to the bar at lunchtime.

And for surface vessels there is another little detail.
All outdoor and some indoor surfaces have a fine coating of salt crystals, paint binds really poorly on salt crystals.

Washing the area before painting can be a real intellectual challenge to both AB's and yard workers.

Ranb · 24th July 2012, 07:05 AM

What shipyard were/are you at Sam.I.Am?

Ranb

Captain_Swoop · 24th July 2012, 08:10 AM

Paint has to be removed from upperworks before repainting. Build up of paint hight in the ship can move theroll point of the ship.

Sam.I.Am · 24th July 2012, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Ranb

What shipyard were/are you at Sam.I.Am?

Ranb

Newport News for over a year back in 83-84, I was sent there right as they were starting to rebuildi the crew at the second half of a refueling overhaul. The boat was still cut open and in dry dock for over four months after I get there so I essentially was there for about half of the entire overhaul and I pretty much saw all of the trades at work to some extent (minus the refueling, that was completed before I got there). I was also on all of the sea trials and inspections including the test launch of a ballistic missile.

My last boat was less than a year out of Portsmouth and they were still cleaning paint off of stuff that should never have been painted in the first place. The painted sound mounts were a fleet wide issue though, every boat actually had to have a ships program to rectify painted and deteriorated sound isolation mounts (usually caused by paint drying them out) and we would get bulletins for new things to look for as they were discovered on other boats in the fleet.

Toke · 24th July 2012, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Paint has to be removed from upperworks before repainting. Build up of paint hight in the ship can move theroll point of the ship.

That would require an awful lot of paint.

What I have seen is loose and cracked paint removed to get to the rust underneath.

As for unwanted painting, I have had hold of AB's painting around the truck lift to the lower hold and told them not to paint the photo sensors for the safety barrier.
Later when the lift didn't work I realized that I had mentioned nothing about the reflectors the sensors were pointing at.

Captain_Swoop · 24th July 2012, 02:59 PM

How much do you think the paint on a ship weighs? On the tribal Class Frigates I was on we were over weight up topsides anyway due to sensor upgrades over the decades.

As for things being paintyed that shouldn't. We were told to take paint off things that should be painted if they were brass so wqe could polish them. Lots of polished brass is rwquired by the RN.

Ranb · 24th July 2012, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am

Newport News for over a year back in 83-84,

I think the painters in Puget now are a better sort and 28 years can change things also. It is still a dirty boring job, but they are not sloppy. Their work is inspected by supervisors and not only from the paint shop.

Ranb

Toke · 24th July 2012, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

How much do you think the paint on a ship weighs?

Judging by the paint store a large ship may use a ton or two a year, some part of the mass is thinner and evaporates. So 20 years of paint layers would be less that 20-40 tons on a 50-100.000 ton vessel.
Not really a problem for stability.

Corsair 115 · 24th July 2012, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

How much do you think the paint on a ship weighs?

I don't know about a ship, but I do recall this tidbit from the Space Shuttle. For its first two missions the external tank was painted white; for subsequent missions the tank was left in its unpainted orange colour. Not painting it saved some 600 lbs. of weight.

Finn McR · 24th July 2012, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Corsair 115

I don't know about a ship, but I do recall this tidbit from the Space Shuttle. For its first two missions the external tank was painted white; for subsequent missions the tank was left in its unpainted orange colour. Not painting it saved some 600 lbs. of weight.

95% Correct. The spray-on foam insulation starts out a light amber, but darkens with age. The paint did not add significant protection. If you look back on old STS (shuttle) missions and see varicolored external fuel tanks, that is probably the reason.

Also, I don't know the specifics on weight savings, but I believe that similar considerations went into B-25 bombers in "silver" over Japan in WWII. ...The idea being, "we don't care if they see us (ahead of contrails), they can't really reach us, so let's go for longer legs." Yes?

Finn McR · 24th July 2012, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am

You would think that that would work wouldn't you? You would be wrong. The vast majority of painting that they do in an overhaul is painting over stuff that's already been painted (several years earlier and a bit worse for the wear of course but still painted). It doesn't matter, they are just lazy, sloppy and don't really give a damn about it other than getting that paycheck and being the first ones out the gate at the whistle and the first ones to belly up to the bar at lunchtime.

Yes, I would think that color-coding would work. However, I am definitely prepared to believe that it would not work in practice. I have had to deal with facilities maintenance folks. Once, I screwed down the cover of an exhaust fan motor on the roof of our building and the QA weenie asked the contractor if my screwing-down-the-cover performance was acceptable to them.

Now, not to brag about my performance, since it was A) fastening 101 and, B) nowhere near critical, the fact that I cross-tigtened the screws was good enough for the contractor. The fact that anyone with an ounce of mechanical sense would do the same to IKEA furniture. The QA weenie had to make sure that my performance of screwing in 4 screws of the cover of a motor enclosure was acceptable to the contractor.
....Really?

So, yeah, I can see that the unreal, "real world" could intrude to disrupt something as simple as re-painting.

Corsair 115 · 25th July 2012, 11:23 AM

Now it's my turn for a correction..

Originally Posted by Finn McR

Also, I don't know the specifics on weight savings, but I believe that similar considerations went into B-25 bombers in "silver" over Japan in WWII. ...The idea being, "we don't care if they see us (ahead of contrails), they can't really reach us, so let's go for longer legs." Yes?

I think you mean B-29 bombers.

I seem to recall as well the B-17s and B-24s of the 8th Air Force were left unpainted as well (other than national and squadron identification markings).

Sam.I.Am · 25th July 2012, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Ranb

I think the painters in Puget now are a better sort and 28 years can change things also. It is still a dirty boring job, but they are not sloppy. Their work is inspected by supervisors and not only from the paint shop.

Ranb

It's been my experience that people don't really change all that much. I've seen much more critical work "Inspected" by the shipyard and they had passed it only to discover later on that they had gundecked the inspections. The worst case was where a major seawater system that ran the length of the boat (the trim system to be exact) ended up having to be completely reinspected by ships force instead of the shipyard after we found a major valve with bolts that were hand tight. It was inspected, signed off on and lagged over by the shipyard and the only reason we found it before we went to sea was because the valve was leaking during a hydrostatic test of a different valve. We found two other valves with the same problem after we inspected all of them.

Every INSURV inspection I've ever heard of has failed at least some of the shipyard work that the shipyard swore had passed their own inspections. I've written untold hundreds of swifties (ships work insufficiency forms) that are intended to find and have the yard fix the small "Oopsies" that they missed, many of them paint related.

Hell, I once had a torpedo tube that when fired rolled the stop bolt on a completely different tube. I still have no idea how they managed to do that much less pass the shipyard inspection. You'll have to excuse me when I look at shipyard inspections with a grain of salt.

23rd July 2012, 10:20 AM	#1
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,116	USS Miami fire was arson Earlier this year the USS Miami caught fire while in shipyard for repairs. The fire took days to put out and cost hundreds of millions in damage. Early reports were that hot material was sucked up into a vacuum cleaner which later started on fire after it was put away in a stateroom being used for storage. http://www.norwichbulletin.com/news/...#axzz21Syu1LT7 It seems a shipyard painter set that fire and another one according to various news sources. Quote: The submarine was in dry dock for an overhaul at the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard in Kittery. Court documents say Fury was assigned to strip paint in the torpedo room. He first denied involvement in the fires, then later acknowledged his involvement in the major fire when it was clear he was failing a polygraph examination, federal investigators say. He told federal investigators his anxiety also prompted him to set the May 23 fire in a state room of the submarine. He told investigators he set fire to a bag of rags atop one of the bunks. Ranb

23rd July 2012, 01:04 PM	#2
Sam.I.Am Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hunting Moose and Squirrel Posts: 4,154	In my experience shipyard painters are the dumbest and laziest of all of the yardbirds that I dealt with (note that this was in Newport News and not Portsmouth but from what I've heard it's the same everywhere). It's not like the work is hard (it's just tedious) if it's metal or insulation, paint it. If it's rubber or formica, don't paint it. That one might start a fire in order to leave work early doesn't really surprise me at all.
	__________________ "Swift, silent and deadly" was a part of my job description Upon hearing me say that my friend asked me "So you're a fart?"... About my avatar.

23rd July 2012, 01:30 PM	#3
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,222	30 years ago we would have assumed he was a Red saboteur.
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23rd July 2012, 01:34 PM	#4
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,171	Originally Posted by BenBurch 30 years ago we would have assumed he was a Red saboteur. So he must be Muslim Brotherhood!
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,171	__________________ "There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Roy Moore of Alabama. The world would absolutely benefit by him being run over by any vehicle." - Lowpro

23rd July 2012, 02:13 PM	#5
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,671	Originally Posted by BenBurch 30 years ago we would have assumed he was a Red saboteur. Originally Posted by BenBurch 30 years ago we would have assumed he was a Red saboteur. 30 years ago--1982--that would probably have been an appropriate possibility to investigate. Indeed, I wouldn't be suprised if a cursory look at possible ties to Russia (or China, more likely) were a part of the investigation even today. Originally Posted by Polaris So he must be Muslim Brotherhood! Enh. The US submarine force probably isn't even strategically interesting to the "Muslim Brotherhood", let alone strategically relevant. They're probably much more interested in infiltrating the US intelligence and diplomatic apparatus.
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,671	Last edited by theprestige; 23rd July 2012 at 02:27 PM. Reason: s/weren't/were

23rd July 2012, 02:31 PM	#6
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,222	Agree with both, theprestige.
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23rd July 2012, 04:57 PM	#7
Sam.I.Am Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hunting Moose and Squirrel Posts: 4,154	Originally Posted by theprestige 30 years ago--1982--that would probably have been an appropriate possibility to investigate. Indeed, I wouldn't be suprised if a cursory look at possible ties to Russia (or China, more likely) were a part of the investigation even today. Even then I highly doubt that they would want the diplomatic poop storm that would result from any such ties. Besides, what they would want is to get their hands on the equipment and reverse engineer it instead of sabotage a whole boat. Quote: Enh. The US submarine force probably isn't even strategically interesting to the "Muslim Brotherhood", let alone strategically relevant. They're probably much more interested in infiltrating the US intelligence and diplomatic apparatus. Pretty much this although I would add that Iran would most certainly be interested in getting a good peek at what's inside our boats and/or getting a good understanding of our tactics and procedures. But again there's a huge difference between espionage and sabotage just from a diplomatic perspective.
	__________________ "Swift, silent and deadly" was a part of my job description Upon hearing me say that my friend asked me "So you're a fart?"... About my avatar. Last edited by Sam.I.Am; 23rd July 2012 at 05:01 PM.

23rd July 2012, 05:11 PM	#8
Corsair 115 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 8,591	The guy's last name is Fury? Given the incident he's alleged to be involved with he seems aptly named!
	__________________ "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win."

23rd July 2012, 05:34 PM	#9
sentry579 New Blood Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 21	I was digging through some old newspaper articles and came across several stories of sabotage at US military bases, some unsolved. Most of the stories lacked much detail, but none suggested foreign aggressors or domestic spies. I'm guessing civilian reporters are lucky to get nay details at all, but it's not surprising that few of these incidents get reported. Especially now, with our 24/7 scaremongering news media.
sentry579 New Blood Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 21

23rd July 2012, 06:31 PM	#10
Toke Godless Socialist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 7,602	Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am In my experience shipyard painters are the dumbest and laziest of all of the yardbirds that I dealt with (note that this was in Newport News and not Portsmouth but from what I've heard it's the same everywhere). It's not like the work is hard (it's just tedious) if it's metal or insulation, paint it. If it's rubber or formica, don't paint it. That one might start a fire in order to leave work early doesn't really surprise me at all. I have heard assorted horror stories on what difference a good inspector on the paint job in the yard can mean for future maintenance of the paintjob/rust.
	__________________ From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx.

23rd July 2012, 07:34 PM	#11
shemp Timothy, Timothy, where on earth did you go? Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: trapped in a cave-in with Joe Posts: 12,896	It's gonna take him a long time to work off $400 million. Maybe they can make him CEO of Bain Capital and garnish his wages.
	__________________ Church on Sunday, sleep and nod Tryin' to duck the wrath of God Preacher's fillin' us with fright Tryin' to tell us what he thinks is right He really got to be some kind of nut (I can't use it!) Tryin' to make it real - compared to what?

23rd July 2012, 08:05 PM	#12
Sam.I.Am Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hunting Moose and Squirrel Posts: 4,154	Originally Posted by Toke I have heard assorted horror stories on what difference a good inspector on the paint job in the yard can mean for future maintenance of the paintjob/rust. My biggest problem was the idiots who painted sound isolation mounts. "Hey dummy, that will act like an electrical short for sound and then people that we don't like can find us.". I can't begin to tell you how many sound mounts that I've had to either repair or replace because of lousy paint jobs, not because its classified but because there were so many I lost count. Poor prep work was the least of my problems.
	__________________ "Swift, silent and deadly" was a part of my job description Upon hearing me say that my friend asked me "So you're a fart?"... About my avatar.

23rd July 2012, 08:50 PM	#13
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,278	Originally Posted by Polaris So he must be Muslim Brotherhood! Or a Florida State fan.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

23rd July 2012, 09:51 PM	#14
Finn McR Guest Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 285	Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am My biggest problem was the idiots who painted sound isolation mounts. "Hey dummy, that will act like an electrical short for sound and then people that we don't like can find us.". I can't begin to tell you how many sound mounts that I've had to either repair or replace because of lousy paint jobs, not because its classified but because there were so many I lost count. Poor prep work was the least of my problems. Why not color-code the original parts in the design and original construction phase then? "Paint all of the grey bits, and only the grey bits, with grey paint. Paint the yellow bits, and only the yellow bits, with yellow paint. If it is not painted now, don't paint it."

23rd July 2012, 10:21 PM	#15
Sam.I.Am Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hunting Moose and Squirrel Posts: 4,154	Originally Posted by Finn McR Why not color-code the original parts in the design and original construction phase then? "Paint all of the grey bits, and only the grey bits, with grey paint. Paint the yellow bits, and only the yellow bits, with yellow paint. If it is not painted now, don't paint it." You would think that that would work wouldn't you? You would be wrong. The vast majority of painting that they do in an overhaul is painting over stuff that's already been painted (several years earlier and a bit worse for the wear of course but still painted). It doesn't matter, they are just lazy, sloppy and don't really give a damn about it other than getting that paycheck and being the first ones out the gate at the whistle and the first ones to belly up to the bar at lunchtime.
	__________________ "Swift, silent and deadly" was a part of my job description Upon hearing me say that my friend asked me "So you're a fart?"... About my avatar.

24th July 2012, 05:10 AM	#16
PS13 Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 288	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer Or a Florida State fan. This. Silly Nole...
PS13 Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 288	__________________ Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.~ Richard Dawkins Religion is a major thorn in our species side ~ Juniversal

24th July 2012, 06:20 AM	#17
Toke Godless Socialist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 7,602	Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am You would think that that would work wouldn't you? You would be wrong. The vast majority of painting that they do in an overhaul is painting over stuff that's already been painted (several years earlier and a bit worse for the wear of course but still painted). It doesn't matter, they are just lazy, sloppy and don't really give a damn about it other than getting that paycheck and being the first ones out the gate at the whistle and the first ones to belly up to the bar at lunchtime. And for surface vessels there is another little detail. All outdoor and some indoor surfaces have a fine coating of salt crystals, paint binds really poorly on salt crystals. Washing the area before painting can be a real intellectual challenge to both AB's and yard workers.
	__________________ From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx.

24th July 2012, 07:05 AM	#18
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,116	What shipyard were/are you at Sam.I.Am? Ranb

24th July 2012, 08:10 AM	#19
Captain_Swoop Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 3,952	Paint has to be removed from upperworks before repainting. Build up of paint hight in the ship can move theroll point of the ship.

24th July 2012, 01:23 PM	#20
Sam.I.Am Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hunting Moose and Squirrel Posts: 4,154	Originally Posted by Ranb What shipyard were/are you at Sam.I.Am? Ranb Newport News for over a year back in 83-84, I was sent there right as they were starting to rebuildi the crew at the second half of a refueling overhaul. The boat was still cut open and in dry dock for over four months after I get there so I essentially was there for about half of the entire overhaul and I pretty much saw all of the trades at work to some extent (minus the refueling, that was completed before I got there). I was also on all of the sea trials and inspections including the test launch of a ballistic missile. My last boat was less than a year out of Portsmouth and they were still cleaning paint off of stuff that should never have been painted in the first place. The painted sound mounts were a fleet wide issue though, every boat actually had to have a ships program to rectify painted and deteriorated sound isolation mounts (usually caused by paint drying them out) and we would get bulletins for new things to look for as they were discovered on other boats in the fleet.
	__________________ "Swift, silent and deadly" was a part of my job description Upon hearing me say that my friend asked me "So you're a fart?"... About my avatar.

24th July 2012, 02:43 PM	#21
Toke Godless Socialist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 7,602	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Paint has to be removed from upperworks before repainting. Build up of paint hight in the ship can move theroll point of the ship. That would require an awful lot of paint. What I have seen is loose and cracked paint removed to get to the rust underneath. As for unwanted painting, I have had hold of AB's painting around the truck lift to the lower hold and told them not to paint the photo sensors for the safety barrier. Later when the lift didn't work I realized that I had mentioned nothing about the reflectors the sensors were pointing at.
	__________________ From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx.

24th July 2012, 02:59 PM	#22
Captain_Swoop Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 3,952	How much do you think the paint on a ship weighs? On the tribal Class Frigates I was on we were over weight up topsides anyway due to sensor upgrades over the decades. As for things being paintyed that shouldn't. We were told to take paint off things that should be painted if they were brass so wqe could polish them. Lots of polished brass is rwquired by the RN.

24th July 2012, 04:40 PM	#23
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,116	Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am Newport News for over a year back in 83-84, I think the painters in Puget now are a better sort and 28 years can change things also. It is still a dirty boring job, but they are not sloppy. Their work is inspected by supervisors and not only from the paint shop. Ranb

24th July 2012, 05:12 PM	#24
Toke Godless Socialist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 7,602	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop How much do you think the paint on a ship weighs? Judging by the paint store a large ship may use a ton or two a year, some part of the mass is thinner and evaporates. So 20 years of paint layers would be less that 20-40 tons on a 50-100.000 ton vessel. Not really a problem for stability.
	__________________ From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx.

24th July 2012, 09:48 PM	#25
Corsair 115 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 8,591	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop How much do you think the paint on a ship weighs? I don't know about a ship, but I do recall this tidbit from the Space Shuttle. For its first two missions the external tank was painted white; for subsequent missions the tank was left in its unpainted orange colour. Not painting it saved some 600 lbs. of weight.
	__________________ "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win."

24th July 2012, 10:36 PM	#26
Finn McR Guest Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 285	Originally Posted by Corsair 115 I don't know about a ship, but I do recall this tidbit from the Space Shuttle. For its first two missions the external tank was painted white; for subsequent missions the tank was left in its unpainted orange colour. Not painting it saved some 600 lbs. of weight. 95% Correct. The spray-on foam insulation starts out a light amber, but darkens with age. The paint did not add significant protection. If you look back on old STS (shuttle) missions and see varicolored external fuel tanks, that is probably the reason. Also, I don't know the specifics on weight savings, but I believe that similar considerations went into B-25 bombers in "silver" over Japan in WWII. ...The idea being, "we don't care if they see us (ahead of contrails), they can't really reach us, so let's go for longer legs." Yes?

24th July 2012, 10:55 PM	#27
Finn McR Guest Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 285	Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am You would think that that would work wouldn't you? You would be wrong. The vast majority of painting that they do in an overhaul is painting over stuff that's already been painted (several years earlier and a bit worse for the wear of course but still painted). It doesn't matter, they are just lazy, sloppy and don't really give a damn about it other than getting that paycheck and being the first ones out the gate at the whistle and the first ones to belly up to the bar at lunchtime. Yes, I would think that color-coding would work. However, I am definitely prepared to believe that it would not work in practice. I have had to deal with facilities maintenance folks. Once, I screwed down the cover of an exhaust fan motor on the roof of our building and the QA weenie asked the contractor if my screwing-down-the-cover performance was acceptable to them. Now, not to brag about my performance, since it was A) fastening 101 and, B) nowhere near critical, the fact that I cross-tigtened the screws was good enough for the contractor. The fact that anyone with an ounce of mechanical sense would do the same to IKEA furniture. The QA weenie had to make sure that my performance of screwing in 4 screws of the cover of a motor enclosure was acceptable to the contractor. ....Really? So, yeah, I can see that the unreal, "real world" could intrude to disrupt something as simple as re-painting.

25th July 2012, 11:23 AM	#28
Corsair 115 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 8,591	Now it's my turn for a correction.. Originally Posted by Finn McR Also, I don't know the specifics on weight savings, but I believe that similar considerations went into B-25 bombers in "silver" over Japan in WWII. ...The idea being, "we don't care if they see us (ahead of contrails), they can't really reach us, so let's go for longer legs." Yes? I think you mean B-29 bombers. I seem to recall as well the B-17s and B-24s of the 8th Air Force were left unpainted as well (other than national and squadron identification markings).
	__________________ "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win."

25th July 2012, 02:01 PM	#29
Sam.I.Am Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hunting Moose and Squirrel Posts: 4,154	Originally Posted by Ranb I think the painters in Puget now are a better sort and 28 years can change things also. It is still a dirty boring job, but they are not sloppy. Their work is inspected by supervisors and not only from the paint shop. Ranb It's been my experience that people don't really change all that much. I've seen much more critical work "Inspected" by the shipyard and they had passed it only to discover later on that they had gundecked the inspections. The worst case was where a major seawater system that ran the length of the boat (the trim system to be exact) ended up having to be completely reinspected by ships force instead of the shipyard after we found a major valve with bolts that were hand tight. It was inspected, signed off on and lagged over by the shipyard and the only reason we found it before we went to sea was because the valve was leaking during a hydrostatic test of a different valve. We found two other valves with the same problem after we inspected all of them. Every INSURV inspection I've ever heard of has failed at least some of the shipyard work that the shipyard swore had passed their own inspections. I've written untold hundreds of swifties (ships work insufficiency forms) that are intended to find and have the yard fix the small "Oopsies" that they missed, many of them paint related. Hell, I once had a torpedo tube that when fired rolled the stop bolt on a completely different tube. I still have no idea how they managed to do that much less pass the shipyard inspection. You'll have to excuse me when I look at shipyard inspections with a grain of salt.
	__________________ "Swift, silent and deadly" was a part of my job description Upon hearing me say that my friend asked me "So you're a fart?"... About my avatar.