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#1 |
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Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,342
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Does Bayes' theorem show MWI of quantum mechanics to be correct?
At least this this guy claims so (warning: very many blogposts, have only skimmed a few of them).
Are his writings accurate or not? Is there anything to this at all, or is it just crackpottery? |
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"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." - Christopher Hitchens |
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#2 |
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Critical Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 387
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You've never heard of Yudkowsky? Crackpot? Yes. Bayes' Theorem proves some interpretation of QM? No.
Yudkowsky also thinks, for some unfathomable reason, that Bayes' Theorem is somehow superior to science, as if the two can even be compared, which suggests that Yudkowsky doesn't understand science, Bayes' Theorem, or both. |
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#4 |
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Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,342
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Originally Posted by jt512
I don't believe in the silly-larity (unlike Randi who seems to actually endorse it), but thought it could be useful to see if (any of) Yudkowsky's other claims hold water.
Originally Posted by jt512
Originally Posted by PixyMisa
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__________________
"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." - Christopher Hitchens |
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#5 |
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Critical Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 387
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That explains why the only post of Ian Pollak's I ever read sounded like it was written by Yudkowsky. Ugh, philosophers of statistics. We statisticians need them about as much as birds need ornithologists.
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In general, Bayes' Theorem explains the relationship between (1) the probability that some event, call it "A," is true, given that some other event, call it "B," is true, and (2) the converse of that—that is, the probability that "B" is true, given that "A" is true. If it isn't clear that (1) and (2) are completely different, consider this example: what would the probability be that a person is pregnant, given that the person is female, vs the probability that a person is female, given that the person is pregnant? So, how does this relate to science? Results of scientific studies are usually reported as a "p-value," which essentially is the probability of the data that were observed, given that the null hypothesis* is true. However, what we want to know is the converse of that, namely, the probability that the null hypothesis is true given the data that were observed. To get the latter from the former requires Bayes' Theorem.
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Jay *The null hypothesis is the hypothesis that there is no effect; for example, "The Higgs boson does not exist" or "Homeopathy has no effect greater than that of a placebo." If the null hypothesis is false, then the alternative hypothesis ("The Higgs boson does exist" or "Homeopathy works better than placebo") is true. |
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#6 |
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Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,342
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I've heard it claimed that Bayesian statisticians think science is a special case of Bayesianism. Is that true?
It is claimed that he has autodidacted, but since there has (so far I know) never been any outside examination of how sound it is, it's hard to know. Otherwise, thanks for your general explanation. Though how come there has (to my knowledge) been no skeptical examination of his ideas? His site is pretty well-visited, and he makes plenty of (possibly dubious) claims that can be scientifically examined. Shermer and Randi frequent the Singularity Summit hosted by his organization. |
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__________________
"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." - Christopher Hitchens |
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#7 |
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Persnickety Insect
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sunny Munuvia
Posts: 14,906
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Yep. Speaking as not-a-physicist (there are working physicists on the forum, so perhaps one of them will chime in) any time someone says they can show that this or that interpretation is the correct one, they're talking hot air. (Though we have ruled out some earlier interpretations, such as local hidden variable theories.)
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MWI is an elegant solution to what the equations mean. Elegance is a good reason to prefer it, but no reason to believe it is more correct than other interpretations. |
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Free blogs for skeptics... And everyone else. mee.nu What, in the Holy Name of Gzortch, are you people doing?!?!!? - TGHO |
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#8 |
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Knave of the Dudes
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Communist Kingdom of Sweden
Posts: 7,394
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Isn't this just the old essentialism/operationalism waltz? You can make up all sort of esoteric ideas of what the QM equations "really mean", but at the end of the day what matters is what you can predict and the results of experiments.
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Disagreement begets progress. |
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#9 |
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Critical Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 387
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Beats me. I have no idea what "Bayesianism" is supposed to mean.
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You might find this interesting. Jay |
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#10 |
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Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,342
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba
They differentiate between what they call "traditional rationality" and "x-rationality" (their stuff), often being negative about the former.
Originally Posted by jt512
Originally Posted by jt512
It seems the site is pretty much unknown in cyberspace, though it has a relatively large cluster of, uhm, groupies. His Harry Potter fanfic (which I'll never read, am not a fan of Harry Potter) seems pretty well-known though (for an Internet fanfic that is). |
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__________________
"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." - Christopher Hitchens |
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#11 |
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Knave of the Dudes
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Communist Kingdom of Sweden
Posts: 7,394
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Well I have z-rationality, and it tells me Yudkowsky is wrong.
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Disagreement begets progress. |
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#12 |
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Queensland
Posts: 10,262
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Exactly.
Yudkowski really ought to stick to rationalist tracts aimed at laypersons and Harry Potter fanfiction. So far as I can tell he's done nothing of significance in mathematics, computer science or AI, the fields he tries to position himself as a self-taught expert in. I think he's currently trying to reposition himself as a rationality teacher and moving away from the singularity-cult thing anyway, which might reflect him realising this. |
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Thinking is skilled work....People with untrained minds should no more expect to think clearly and logically than people who have never learned and never practiced can expect to find themselves good carpenters, golfers, bridge-players, or pianists. -- Alfred Mander |
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#14 |
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Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,342
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba
Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe
Originally Posted by PixyMisa
Until empirical evidence comes up.
Originally Posted by PixyMisa
"I am tempted to say that a doctorate in AI would be negatively useful, but I am not one to hold someone’s reckless youth against them – just because you acquired a doctorate in AI doesn’t mean you should be permanently disqualified." |
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__________________
"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." - Christopher Hitchens |
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#15 |
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Knave of the Dudes
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Communist Kingdom of Sweden
Posts: 7,394
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__________________
Disagreement begets progress. |
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#16 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,555
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deleted
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SEARCH NOW THE SPHERES PROBE THE UNIVERSE SEND BACK WORD WHAT FORCE SO IRRESISTIBLE AS THE WILL OF FREE MEN |
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#17 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,555
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Where does "this guy" show how Bayes theorem proves MWI? I didn't see it, but I haven't read most of the blogs. The one I did read wasn't crazy (by QM standards). This FAQ is a good verbal explanation of the strength of the "no-collapse" (MWI) interpretation of QM. http://www.anthropic-principle.com/p...anyworlds.html |
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SEARCH NOW THE SPHERES PROBE THE UNIVERSE SEND BACK WORD WHAT FORCE SO IRRESISTIBLE AS THE WILL OF FREE MEN |
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#19 |
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Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,342
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Can't find an exact quote (unless you count the heading), but here is a series where he states that MWI wins.
Here he states that science and Bayes' theorem are in opposition due to this. I see. Do you think his writings make for a good introduction to quantum physics? Thanks, I'll have to check that out later. |
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__________________
"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." - Christopher Hitchens |
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#20 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,547
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It's pretty poor as an argument. Science hasn't ever been that clearly frequentist. Arguably it's been Bayesian longer, and the frequentists are upstarts that are getting put back in their place lately.
Pretty much as soon as Bayesian reasoning was starting to form it was being used by scientists. Laplace is the classic early example. It's absurd to say they're in opposition. He's built a straw man argument that couldn't be more wrong. |
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When I look up at the night sky and think about the billions of stars out there, I think to myself: I'm amazing. - Peter Serafinowicz |
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#21 |
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Queensland
Posts: 10,262
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Cult mentalities work better when you tell people they're part of a persecuted, enlightened minority, even if it's nonsense. I think the LWers like to believe that Bayesians are persecuted by dastardly frequentists in science, but the scientists I've talked to are completely unaware of any such rivalry between statistical schools.
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__________________
Thinking is skilled work....People with untrained minds should no more expect to think clearly and logically than people who have never learned and never practiced can expect to find themselves good carpenters, golfers, bridge-players, or pianists. -- Alfred Mander |
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#22 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,547
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__________________
When I look up at the night sky and think about the billions of stars out there, I think to myself: I'm amazing. - Peter Serafinowicz |
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#23 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,555
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I saw those. Those were just statements. I didn't see any application of Bayes theorem in them.
I wouldn't know. I only skimmed over a few things looking for the advertized Baynesian proof. Most of what I saw was metaphysical interpretation and philosophy. At any rate, I have zero interest in being drawn into a hyena attack defending someone else's ideas. If I did agree with a word he said, I wouldn't admit to it. |
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SEARCH NOW THE SPHERES PROBE THE UNIVERSE SEND BACK WORD WHAT FORCE SO IRRESISTIBLE AS THE WILL OF FREE MEN |
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#24 |
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Other (please write in)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NeverLand
Posts: 9,883
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__________________
As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn |
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#25 |
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Queensland
Posts: 10,262
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__________________
Thinking is skilled work....People with untrained minds should no more expect to think clearly and logically than people who have never learned and never practiced can expect to find themselves good carpenters, golfers, bridge-players, or pianists. -- Alfred Mander |
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#26 |
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Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,342
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You might be interested in the debate between one of his acolytes and AGI researcher Pei Wang. Comes across like "I'm trying to be reasonable, but you guys are crackpots" from the view of Wang.
Digging a little of the history of the site, it was apparently seeded from a libertarian transhumanist mailing list from the early 2000s run by Yudkowsky. |
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__________________
"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." - Christopher Hitchens |
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#27 |
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Guest
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,853
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I actually started a thread about his fanfic without realizing this thread was here.
His fanfic is excellent. His beliefs about MWI, I'm not as big a fan of. |
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#28 |
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Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,342
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I see. I've never been a big fan of Harry Potter, so I'd be hard-pressed to read a fanfic of it. Futher, the stuff I've heard about it makes it seem it seem odd (I mean seriously, a rape fanfic?). From what I understand it is still a work in progress, so please give a shout if it goes upon quantum physics. I wouldn't be suprised if it eventually does, since from what I understand Harry Potter is simply his mouthpiece in the story, intended to convey his philosophy.
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__________________
"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." - Christopher Hitchens |
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#29 |
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Queensland
Posts: 10,262
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__________________
Thinking is skilled work....People with untrained minds should no more expect to think clearly and logically than people who have never learned and never practiced can expect to find themselves good carpenters, golfers, bridge-players, or pianists. -- Alfred Mander |
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#30 |
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Guest
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,853
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If you didn't like the Harry Potter books, I wouldn't bother.
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Originally Posted by HP:MoR
Quote:
I'll post here if further chapters get into quantum physics at all. |
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#31 |
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Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,342
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__________________
"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." - Christopher Hitchens |
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#32 |
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Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,342
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__________________
"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." - Christopher Hitchens |
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#33 |
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Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,342
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It might well be a good story. But the basic goal is still to raise the "sanity water line" or whatever it is, which they expect will translate into donating money to their organization in order to save the world.
Please do! |
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__________________
"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." - Christopher Hitchens |
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#34 |
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Queensland
Posts: 10,262
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I think we're going to have to agree to disagree with regard to what a reasonable person regards as "a rape fanfic". Maybe I'm showing my ignorance of the fanfic scene here, but never having read anything I'd call "a rape fanfic" I'm imagining something in which there's at least one detailed description of sexual assault, and probably lots of them. A story mentioning rape once in what would have to be hundreds of thousands of words doesn't remotely qualify in my mind.
Given that the original stories have people being tortured to death and/or murdered far more often than the topic of sexual assault comes up in Yudowkski's fanfic, if you're going to be consistent you should be calling the entire Harry Potter series "torture porn" if the mention of rape cited earlier qualifies Yudkowski's entire fanfic as "rape fanfic". |
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__________________
Thinking is skilled work....People with untrained minds should no more expect to think clearly and logically than people who have never learned and never practiced can expect to find themselves good carpenters, golfers, bridge-players, or pianists. -- Alfred Mander |
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#35 |
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Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,342
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__________________
"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." - Christopher Hitchens |
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#36 |
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Guest
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,853
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Please stop saying things like that; they're very misleading and rather pejorative.
The story does not include rape. The concept of rape is mentioned off-hand within the dialog. There is neither on-screen nor off-screen rape in this fanfic. Talking about "the inclusion of rape in the story" maligns the story unnecessarily. |
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#37 |
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Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,342
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Okay fair enough, but it's still strange.
A general question: His community seems to be based on the "sequences", on which the parts about quantum mechanics and Bayes vs science are just parts. Have anyone here read them (they are reportedly longer than the entire LoTR triology)? I have seen different judgements on them, from "changed my life!" to being mostly second-hand scholarship. I agree this guy has certain crackpot attributes, but at the same time Randi and Shermer are regular speakers at his conferences.
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__________________
"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." - Christopher Hitchens |
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#38 |
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Guest
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,853
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Yeah, the sequences just seem to be him blogging about science and stuff. I've not read very much of them.
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#39 |
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Knave of the Dudes
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Communist Kingdom of Sweden
Posts: 7,394
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__________________
Disagreement begets progress. |
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#40 |
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Queensland
Posts: 10,262
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The "sequences" aren't going to change your life if you were well-read on the topics of critical thinking, probabilistic reasoning and cognitive bias beforehand. "Mostly second-hand scholarship" is exactly right but also kind of unfair, because Yudkowski isn't positioning himself as a researcher, just a synthesiser of existing ideas. It's not new but it's mostly sensible, approachable and enthusiastically written. Apart from his crank-like writing on quantum physics I wouldn't try to steer anyone away from any of it that I've looked at, but I haven't looked at all of it because a lot of it looks very much like stuff I already know.
(Yudkowksi tries to position himself as an AI researcher, but not so much with the critical thinking stuff). Overall since critical thinking, probabilistic reasoning and cognitive bias are really important things for intelligent people to know about, I think it's a very good thing that someone's put a few books worth of content about them up on the net for free. If you haven't already read a few books on those topics already then I think it would be a good investment of your time to read some or most of the "sequences". Just filter out the Yudkowski Cult nonsense, because nothing in there is really very novel, it's just presented as if it were. |
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__________________
Thinking is skilled work....People with untrained minds should no more expect to think clearly and logically than people who have never learned and never practiced can expect to find themselves good carpenters, golfers, bridge-players, or pianists. -- Alfred Mander |
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