Saddled with student debt? Welcome to America's screwed generation - Page 2

Daald · 2nd August 2012, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura

This is assuming you can afford 3k a semester. Some of us can't.

That is why I said that 24K is hardly crippling debt. Also, if you can't afford a 3k per semester tuition you would probably be eligible for some sort of scholarship or financial aid.

rwguinn · 2nd August 2012, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

This is exactly what is occurring, as I understand it. There's also a disconnect between HR and the technical groups. For example, I've seen requests for resumes that require the applicant to have ten years of experience with software platforms that have only been out for five. Or other jobs that require 20 years of engineering experience but only offer $40k/year.

The claim that there is a shortage of qualified workers is a myth.

Ha. I got a request for submittal on a job that required 5 years experience in Ideas Master Series 11, while that program version was in Beta Testing!
And you're right about the 20 years experience--"how does 40K sound"--I've had it happen to me (Only it was from salaried $100K+ to hourly at a rate of $22/hr. (I had another offer on the table at $75/hr)

Daald · 2nd August 2012, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by Weak Kitten

The answer I've heard (whether it is right or wrong, I don't know) is that a four year degree demonstrates the ability to stick with something difficult for four years or more. Some places will wave the requirement a little if your resume demonstrates that you have worked reliably somewhere else for a similar length of time.

This is the reason we require it at my job. My employer cares about dedication and is aware of the fact that everything we do can be learned. The problem is how do you show that you have this dedication? That is where a college degree comes in.

Another problem is that a college degree also guarantees some fundamentals. In my job we hired a senior programmer that had a lot of experience but no college degree. In code reviews we figured out that he didn't even know how to pass variables to functions and declared everything as static

I have no idea how he was hired for 10 years as a programmer. You get all sorts I guess.

ETA:

After that guy, we started screening for basic programming skills. Write a loop that prints numbers between 1-100 and does something if it is divisible by 3, 5 etc. You would be surprised how many people can't.

Daald · 2nd August 2012, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by rwguinn

Ha. I got a request for submittal on a job that required 5 years experience in Ideas Master Series 11, while that program version was in Beta Testing!
And you're right about the 20 years experience--"how does 40K sound"--I've had it happen to me (Only it was from salaried $100K+ to hourly at a rate of $22/hr. (I had another offer on the table at $75/hr)

You have to remember that a lot of those jobs could also be because they want to sponsor somebody and they are required to list the position while it really is not available. They make the terms pretty bad hoping for no bites.

Weak Kitten · 2nd August 2012, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

Good thing you didn't learn Silverlight.

Nah, even a silly artist like me could tell that Silverlight was dogfood right from the beginning.

Personally I really hope that the ridiculous demands in many help wanted ads are just HR departments being unreasonable. Otherwise I have to assume that I have gone through my whole life not realizing I was mentally deficient.

I spent a lot of time learning art and thus my programing skills are sub-par at best. Still I see all these wanted ads that would require the artist to be able to program on a professional level, whip Photoshop and Illustrator into submission, and still be able to create professional quality drawings. Other ads ask for 3D artists who can model, skin, rig, and animate all at top level. When I was in college it was just assumed that those jobs would each be done by a different person because they require so much knowledge and skill. On top of all that these ads are usually offering minimal pay at best, not the sort of thing you would expect for professionals with 5-10 years experience.

So either the upcoming graduates out of college are some sort of supermen who are going to drive all the subhumans like myself out of work...or there is something seriously wrong with the current hiring systems.

Daald · 2nd August 2012, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by Weak Kitten

Nah, even a silly artist like me could tell that Silverlight was dogfood right from the beginning.

Personally I really hope that the ridiculous demands in many help wanted ads are just HR departments being unreasonable. Otherwise I have to assume that I have gone through my whole life not realizing I was mentally deficient.

I spent a lot of time learning art and thus my programing skills are sub-par at best. Still I see all these wanted ads that would require the artist to be able to program on a professional level, whip Photoshop and Illustrator into submission, and still be able to create professional quality drawings. Other ads ask for 3D artists who can model, skin, rig, and animate all at top level. When I was in college it was just assumed that those jobs would each be done by a different person because they require so much knowledge and skill. On top of all that these ads are usually offering minimal pay at best, not the sort of thing you would expect for professionals with 5-10 years experience.

So either the upcoming graduates out of college are some sort of supermen who are going to drive all the subhumans like myself out of work...or there is something seriously wrong with the current hiring systems.

As a person that learned some Silverlight I can say that it is not that bad.

As a graphics person you really learn to use Expression Blend, which basically uses XAML.

The XAML in Silverlight has been pretty much implemented in WinRT and that skill set would not be lost.

P.S.

As an aside. After failing for a long time to find good programmers my firm decided to raise our own. We hire at universities lately and take the time to train them ourselves. Has worked out great so far.

Weak Kitten · 2nd August 2012, 07:42 AM

Good information Daald, thank you. I was just assuming that Silverlight was a bit of a vanity project by Microsoft. Not that I have anything against Microsoft!

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that your company still believes in training your people. I wish more companies did that. I would happily work for a fraction of normal pay or even as an unpayed intern if I knew I would get proper training and a chance at a real job in exchange.

Beerina · 2nd August 2012, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Dcdrac

How on earth is this level of indebedness going to help the USA?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...wed-generation

"Saddled with student debt? Welcome to America's screwed generation

I may not look like it, but I am a modern-day serf. Saddled with thousands of dollars of student debt – debt that has been stripped of all consumer protections and is non-dischargeable in bankruptcy – I am part of a screwed generation.

Earlier this year, the collective student loan burden in the United States passed the $1tn mark. Analysts are increasingly referring to a student loan bubble that could result in a crisis similar to the subprime mortgage crisis of 2008."

Once you get a job, get a place $200 a month cheaper than you otherwise would so you won't have to live hand-to-mouth.

I just finished paying off $40k credit card debt, and still have other debts to go.

Bleats trying to stimulate politics into debt forgiveness are noted.

Having said that, here's US history the past 20 years.

Politician: I want to say I made more people go to college. Make loans easier!

College Deans: I praise thee. Supply and demand. More cash, raise the rates. It's just like car companies selling you a car, nickle/dimeing you to death. A big fee increase = a small monthly payment increase.

People: Why are college costs increasing double-digits annually, chronically now?

Politician: Dean?

Dean: I dunno.

Politican: We dunno.

Fin.

Beerina · 2nd August 2012, 07:55 AM

Also, some are getting economically ~~silly~~ not in demand degrees, and expecting to get jobs the way Californians want to live in the desert by the tens of millions and wonder why they have water problems.

Daald · 2nd August 2012, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Weak Kitten

Good information Daald, thank you. I was just assuming that Silverlight was a bit of a vanity project by Microsoft. Not that I have anything against Microsoft!

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that your company still believes in training your people. I wish more companies did that. I would happily work for a fraction of normal pay or even as an unpayed intern if I knew I would get proper training and a chance at a real job in exchange.

I think training your people is vital nowadays if you do not wish to fall into mediocrity. I see a lot of the companies that hire us have a lot of seat warmers that do nothing all day, and the little bit they do is done poorly. At first I blamed work ethic, but then you realize it is the company itself. Unfortunately there are a lot of companies like that

Some dude that has friends becomes IT manager. He knows nothing about IT. He then builds a development team. If he does not get lucky and hire a strong engineer off the bat, everything gets progressively worse from that point forward since a good person is a threat. You just sit back and watch the death spiral as they try to outsource it, then inshore it etc, never realizing that the rot is at the top.

WildCat · 2nd August 2012, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

Once you get a job, get a place $200 a month cheaper than you otherwise would so you won't have to live hand-to-mouth.

Originally Posted by Beerina

Also, some are getting economically ~~silly~~ not in demand degrees, and expecting to get jobs the way Californians want to live in the desert by the tens of millions and wonder why they have water problems.

But you save $200/month in rent by living in the desert...

Weak Kitten · 2nd August 2012, 09:19 AM

Wow Daald, you just described one of my good friend's previous jobs. She was that one good engineer on the team and she was stressed to the point of weekly meltdowns. The rot did indeed go all the way to the top so she had no way to solve the problem, or even get them to hire her a competent assistant. It was so bad that even the clients were aware that the moment she broke they would be up a creek. She was so happy when she left that company but now she's concerned that all the stress may have caused her long term health issues.

I never really understood why they wouldn't hire her the assistance she needed to keep the company running. Your explanation actually makes a good deal of sense.

Silly Green Monkey · 2nd August 2012, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by Daald

That is why I said that 24K is hardly crippling debt. Also, if you can't afford a 3k per semester tuition you would probably be eligible for some sort of scholarship or financial aid.

It is if you have other debt on top of the student loans and only make twelve hundred a month, with the job taking back some of the money just to do it. My degree and experience sit rusting on the shelf.

Daald · 2nd August 2012, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey

It is if you have other debt on top of the student loans and only make twelve hundred a month, with the job taking back some of the money just to do it. My degree and experience sit rusting on the shelf.

I thought we were talking about crippling debt from education, not the inability to get a job in your specified field and putting yourself further in debt.

TellyKNeasuss · 2nd August 2012, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by The Don

It's rare that I agree with WildCat but this ^.

Even in the IT industry, there is a reluctance to train people "if we train them, they'll only leave" despite the fact the company saying this is relying on other companies (or self-starting employees) to provide trained staff.

Employers who want skilled staff seem to want exactly the correct skills rather than cross-training.

The end result is that the only people who are qualified for jobs are people whose current jobs have allowed them to keep up with the state-of-the-art.

dudalb · 2nd August 2012, 04:48 PM

One thing that does annoy me about some college graduates (and I am one myself) is that they get a degree in a subject where it is screamingly obvious there are not many job opportunities,(like the fine arts )and then they bitch that they cannot get a high paying job on graduation.......

TellyKNeasuss · 2nd August 2012, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by Daald

Another problem is that a college degree also guarantees some fundamentals. In my job we hired a senior programmer that had a lot of experience but no college degree. In code reviews we figured out that he didn't even know how to pass variables to functions and declared everything as static

I have no idea how he was hired for 10 years as a programmer. You get all sorts I guess.

I don't agree that having a college degree guarantees fundamentals. I've worked with many programmers with Bachelor's, or even Master's, degrees who didn't know anything about data structures or what the differences between object-oriented, structured, and functional programming are. Or, for that matter, why it is a bad idea to put 108 'if' statements in a single function, as one person whom I worked with at the National Snow and Ice Data Center did (and was commended for her creative programming ability!!!).

TellyKNeasuss · 2nd August 2012, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Weak Kitten

Personally I really hope that the ridiculous demands in many help wanted ads are just HR departments being unreasonable. Otherwise I have to assume that I have gone through my whole life not realizing I was mentally deficient.

The ridiculous demands in help wanted ads are a way of limiting the number of applications that have to be dealt with. If you can eliminate most of the potential applicants by requiring skills and experience that few have, then you don't have to spend a lot of time reading resumes.

Quote:

So either the upcoming graduates out of college are some sort of supermen who are going to drive all the subhumans like myself out of work...or there is something seriously wrong with the current hiring systems.

The current hiring system is that companies want people who can hit the ground running. Experience with the skills that the job currently requires is basically the only criteria. Long-term potential generally isn't a consideration, probably because companies don't have much expectation that most of their employees will be there long-term. Whether this constitutes a broken system is a matter of perspective.

Sam.I.Am · 2nd August 2012, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Weak Kitten

The answer I've heard (whether it is right or wrong, I don't know) is that a four year degree demonstrates the ability to stick with something difficult for four years or more. Some places will wave the requirement a little if your resume demonstrates that you have worked reliably somewhere else for a similar length of time.

The same applies to the military. If you have a good record (honorable discharge and a rank equal to or even a bit below what might be expected for the time that you were active) that can count as much as getting a degree in that respect. In addition many military jobs can be directly transferred into college credits. I have over 40 credits accrued just from my time in the navy that can be applied at just about any school and that's without ever setting foot on a university campus.

Prometheus · 2nd August 2012, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am

The same applies to the military. If you have a good record (honorable discharge and a rank equal to or even a bit below what might be expected for the time that you were active) that can count as much as getting a degree in that respect. In addition many military jobs can be directly transferred into college credits. I have over 40 credits accrued just from my time in the navy that can be applied at just about any school and that's without ever setting foot on a university campus.

My brother has six years of military experience, while I have six years of higher education (M.A.). He now makes three times as much as I do, after having entered the work force with less than half the debt (he bought a house instead of a college degree). He get's extra "combat veteran" benefits because he was active duty (sitting on a beach in Okinawa) during Desert Storm. I get congratulated a lot for having attended top tier schools....

Furcifer · 2nd August 2012, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by Polaris

We could prevent the problem getting worse by changing the social view that the trades are undesirable low class occupations and that everybody should go to college.

+1

My HS guidance counselor was a teacher essentially "saddled" by the teachers Union to take on the task, probably with a slight bump in pay. Being, shall we say out of his prime, he was mistaken assuming that "higher education" was the ultimate answer.

IMO it should have went "You're 16, not sure exactly what you want to do in life? Get your HS diploma, take on a trade, make decent money for 5 years and then reevaluate where you want to be in 10 years. Being a ticketed Millwright or Electrician at 24 making $25 an hour or more is nothing to scoff at. You'll not only be debt free you'll be making good money, better money than most engineers at the same age with no work experience and $100K in debt"

Furcifer · 2nd August 2012, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Let me guess, that machine shop owner will only hire someone who has 5 years experience as a machinist doing the exact same job on the exact same equipment his shop does. And the moron wonders why he has no applicants? No one wants to train anyone anymore.

Too true.

Windsor had a rather large and respectable machining industry 20 some years ago. I have several friends that left HS, went into tool and die and were making +50K a year within a year or two. Another friend of mine that was in University with me left after first year to go into the business. By the time I graduated he was a shop supervisor making +70K a year. He's a smart guy and in the 90's the demand was so great anyone showing initiative was given the opportunity to move up and take over a shop because owners were chomping at the bit trying to get people to open up more shops.

If I had to guess, the 70K a year anecdote is probably based on the fact that instead of 2 machinists he's got one working 60 hours a week trying to pick up the slack. If he had two they'd probably make 40 or 45K a year a piece. That's still not too shabby.

Redtail · 2nd August 2012, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by Beerina

Also, some are getting economically ~~silly~~ not in demand degrees, and expecting to get jobs the way Californians want to live in the desert by the tens of millions and wonder why they have water problems.

I can't help but wonder how much of their inability to find jobs is based on lack of creativity applying their degrees.

I have an MFA in acting & my wife has an MFA in costuming. Many would consider these "silly" degrees but we make more than all of our friends except one couple & they were born into wealth.

We were pushed to go to NYC or LA after school, but she stumbled across a renfaire job & it turned into quite a lucrative deal for us. Plus we got to travel all over the US in our 30s.

SumDood · 2nd August 2012, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by Daald

This is the reason we require it at my job. My employer cares about dedication and is aware of the fact that everything we do can be learned. The problem is how do you show that you have this dedication? That is where a college degree comes in.

Another problem is that a college degree also guarantees some fundamentals. In my job we hired a senior programmer that had a lot of experience but no college degree. In code reviews we figured out that he didn't even know how to pass variables to functions and declared everything as static

I have no idea how he was hired for 10 years as a programmer. You get all sorts I guess.

ETA:

After that guy, we started screening for basic programming skills. Write a loop that prints numbers between 1-100 and does something if it is divisible by 3, 5 etc. You would be surprised how many people can't.

You guys still hiring?

TellyKNeasuss · 2nd August 2012, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Weak Kitten

This has been my complaint lately too. Everyone wanted Photoshop and Aftereffects so I learned those two. But by the time I learned them I couldn't find work because everyone wanted Flash animators. So I spent my own money and free time to learn Flash and get it up to a reasonable level. Then suddenly no one wants Flash, they want HTML5.

It takes time to learn these things and build up a portfolio and yet the things you have to know are constantly changing and no one wants to give you time to learn on the job. Sadly "self starter who learns quickly" just doesn't seem to be something employers care about.

The reality is, as numerous managers and headhunters have told me, is that taking a class to learn some skill, or training yourself in some skill, has little value to an employer. In general, employers consider that if you haven't used a skill on the job, you don't have the skill, regardless of how many classes that you've taken.

Daald · 3rd August 2012, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss

I don't agree that having a college degree guarantees fundamentals. I've worked with many programmers with Bachelor's, or even Master's, degrees who didn't know anything about data structures or what the differences between object-oriented, structured, and functional programming are. Or, for that matter, why it is a bad idea to put 108 'if' statements in a single function, as one person whom I worked with at the National Snow and Ice Data Center did (and was commended for her creative programming ability!!!).

Those were not the fundamentals I was talking about. I was talking about passing freaking variables to a function. I had a person come in that couldn't do even that. Another fundamental is that they have heard some of the jargon so I don't have to explain things that should be accepted without argument.

For example, I had a programmer that I explained the 108 nested if statements are bad for readability. He argued with me for a week and still kept them. A college grad was explained the same thing. He nodded and fixed it never doing it again.

Daald · 3rd August 2012, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by SumDood

You guys still hiring?

We have already hired around 10 college grads so far and one more is being hired in about a month. After that I think we are done for a while. We have to raise the current crop after all.

TellyKNeasuss · 3rd August 2012, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Daald

Those were not the fundamentals I was talking about. I was talking about passing freaking variables to a function. I had a person come in that couldn't do even that.

At the National Snow and Ice Data Center, I worked with a guy who had a Master's degree but who couldn't figure how to write subroutines in Perl!

Daald · 3rd August 2012, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss

At the National Snow and Ice Data Center, I worked with a guy who had a Master's degree but who couldn't figure how to write subroutines in Perl!

That makes me both very sad and happy at the same time. It makes me sad that such a person could get a degree and happy that I will always have a job

I wonder how he got through school. I am guessing he fudged the programming classes and got by on theory.

TellyKNeasuss · 3rd August 2012, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by Daald

That makes me both very sad and happy at the same time. It makes me sad that such a person could get a degree and happy that I will always have a job

There is little correlation between hire-ability and competence. Because he hacked around a little with Java, which is the most in-demand language in my neck of the woods, he can list Java experience on his resume and find jobs. Since I didn't use Java (or C++), I have NO chance of ever getting a programming job (even though I've taken 2 classes in each language from an accredited college). To make this relevant to the topic, I have fellow students in my classes who can barely scrape through a freshman-level programming class and have little hope of ever getting through a Bachelor's program yet have programming jobs, while someone like me who essentially has a Master's degree in CS is totally unemployable.

Quote:

I wonder how he got through school. I am guessing he fudged the programming classes and got by on theory.

I think that the situation is just the opposite. He learned a specific language or 2 from his classes but doesn't know anything about the general theory of why and how languages are designed. Therefore, it is hard for him to learn different languages.

Daald · 3rd August 2012, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss

There is little correlation between hire-ability and competence. Because he hacked around a little with Java, which is the most in-demand language in my neck of the woods, he can list Java experience on his resume and find jobs. Since I didn't use Java (or C++), I have NO chance of ever getting a programming job (even though I've taken 2 classes in each language from an accredited college). To make this relevant to the topic, I have fellow students in my classes who can barely scrape through a freshman-level programming class and have little hope of ever getting through a Bachelor's program yet have programming jobs, while someone like me who essentially has a Master's degree in CS is totally unemployable.

Depends on the employer. I guarantee that at my company (I am involved in hiring) competence is what matters. We do look for the good students. Just as an FYI, when we interview at colleges we only look at the people that have side programming projects while in school. We want people that would do programming regardless. Some can't comprehend why we do this, but we have had excellent results so far. Everyone we get is eager to learn as much as they can.

Quote:

I think that the situation is just the opposite. He learned a specific language or 2 from his classes but doesn't know anything about the general theory of why and how languages are designed. Therefore, it is hard for him to learn different languages.

I guess that depends on the school. CS programs are usually more theory based from my impression.

AlaskaBushPilot · 3rd August 2012, 09:02 AM

When student loans are guaranteed by the government you get the same result as guaranteed loans for anything else: the lenders don't care whether you can pay them back. Because the government will.

I did a couple in Grad School. They never asked me what my major was. They didn't care. How can banking work when nobody cares what you are borrowing the money for? Even in the case of the housing melt-down the government did not actually guarantee all those crazy derivative tranches of mortgage loans, but the banks got them covered anyway.

geni · 4th August 2012, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by commandlinegamer

They'll leave if there are better working conditions elsewhere. Want to retain your staff? Pay better wages, give them more time off, and where possible, opportunities for advancement.

The problem with that line of argument is that it is cheaper to offer those benifits to someone trained elsewhere than to train people up yourself.

Brattus · 4th August 2012, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Polaris

We could prevent the problem getting worse by changing the social view that the trades are undesirable low class occupations and that everybody should go to college.

Thank you!

TellyKNeasuss · 4th August 2012, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

The claim that there is a shortage of qualified workers is a myth.

For virtually all jobs, there is no shortage of workers capable of doing the job. There are, however, jobs for which there is a shortage of workers who have experience doing that job.

DevilsAdvocate · 5th August 2012, 01:02 AM

The problem is not student loans.
Or what colleges are teaching.
Or what students are studying.
Or the economy or job situation.

The problem is the absurdly astronomical increase in college tuition over the past 10-20 years. The increases in US college costs far exceed even medical costs, and make the increases in housing costs that led to our current financial problems look like a small bump in the road. The increases in US college costs are---simply insane.

Yes, there have been problems where increased government financial aid has resulted in schools simply raising their costs, but that basically just happens at small trade schools and the government has at least attempted to deal with that problem. The increases in maximum federal student aid grants and loans has actually been very, very small over the past 20 years. Up to about 10-15 years ago, private student loans were essentially unheard of. Now they are very common. So it is not government student aid or loans that are driving this problem.

Yes, colleges offer degrees in things that are not financially marketable. That degree in basket weaving probably isn’t going to land you a high paying job. But this has always been the case. And in recent years the US government has established laws requiring schools to disclose information about placement rates for different programs of study. So it is not what is being taught that is driving this problem.

The big question us WHY are college costs going up at such alarming rates. College graduates today end up with essentially the same thing as graduates 10 or 20 years ago, but are paying 3 to 4 times as much.

While these other issues are worthy of discussion (and the increasing costs do tend to shine a light on the problems with higher education), they are meaningless in comparison to the issue of the increasing college costs.

Vermonter · 5th August 2012, 01:42 AM

I am 3 classes away from my BA in Computer Science, and I don't know if I'll ever finish it. I went into college later than most (20), and by then I'd already been working and had my own debt. Right now I have about $120k in student loan debt, of which I think I'll never pay off. I'm currently forking over $800 a month for my loans. I stopped taking classes in '09 when I landed a job working at a hospital doing tech support. Before then I was working full-time (40 hours a week) and taking a full load of classes while living on campus. I made about $23k or so doing that. Now I'm making nearly three times as much, but I still have those debts hanging over my head.

Right now I'm working third shift and weekends to make ends meet. My degree, if I had it, would be worthless in this field since it's all programming, and quite frankly I have no desire to program again. I may finish it some day just to have it, but right now, it doesn't provide any financial incentive. My student loan debt also means that my job choice is limited, I can't afford a lesser-paying job. As crude as it sounds, if I could declare bankruptcy and erase it I would.

Don't get me wrong, I'm comfortable, but that debt has caused me no end of stress and worry. I wish there was a way to make it better.

Sam.I.Am · 5th August 2012, 02:13 AM

Originally Posted by Vermonter

Don't get me wrong, I'm comfortable, but that debt has caused me no end of stress and worry. I wish there was a way to make it better.

There isn't, but there is a way to make it so that less people go into debt get a useless degree. Make it mandatory that they attend and complete 2 years worth of general advanced study before going into a more specialized study program and make those classes hard as hell to pass.

And don't make them just bonehead type classes like math, science, english and so on but have some classes that require some critical thinking as well.

You don't need to grade on a curve but the bar should be set very high to pass. Have the tuition set at a reasonable rate that won't beak the bank to pay back should you not pass. Once you get past that hurdle then you not only will be prepared for what lies ahead but the people who really aren't qualified to be there (either by not having the drive or simply not being able to comprehend the subject matters) won't end up with life altering crushing debt that they cannot get out of.

I think that that might filter out quite a few people who are going to a university just to get a degree in something so that they can point to it later on and be able to say that they "Have a degree". Right now as it stands a Bachelors degree is the same as what a high school diploma used to be 30 years ago and most people don't really need it or use it.

Silly Green Monkey · 6th August 2012, 08:21 AM

Vermonter's not saying the degree was worthless---far from it, programming's considered a high-demand profession. It's just worthless in the current job, which is paying off the student loans. My job has nothing to do with my degree or training, and I'd REALLY love to be working in it---but this job is paying the bills. Barely. It's also keeping me from finding a job better suited to my skills, which I'm not sure there is available anyway because I have no information at all.

Caper · 6th August 2012, 09:36 AM

I worked in an environmental lab where 35k would take years to obtain and be a really good salary. I couldn't believe the amount of people with advanced degrees and masters in chemistry there were at that lab. None of them could find much better. People strapped with 40 or 50k in student loans making $12 an hour.

2nd August 2012, 06:57 AM	#42
rwguinn Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes Posts: 8,416	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit This is exactly what is occurring, as I understand it. There's also a disconnect between HR and the technical groups. For example, I've seen requests for resumes that require the applicant to have ten years of experience with software platforms that have only been out for five. Or other jobs that require 20 years of engineering experience but only offer $40k/year. The claim that there is a shortage of qualified workers is a myth. Ha. I got a request for submittal on a job that required 5 years experience in Ideas Master Series 11, while that program version was in Beta Testing! And you're right about the 20 years experience--"how does 40K sound"--I've had it happen to me (Only it was from salaried $100K+ to hourly at a rate of $22/hr. (I had another offer on the table at $75/hr)
	__________________ "Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275

2nd August 2012, 06:58 AM	#43
Daald Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 423	Originally Posted by Weak Kitten The answer I've heard (whether it is right or wrong, I don't know) is that a four year degree demonstrates the ability to stick with something difficult for four years or more. Some places will wave the requirement a little if your resume demonstrates that you have worked reliably somewhere else for a similar length of time. This is the reason we require it at my job. My employer cares about dedication and is aware of the fact that everything we do can be learned. The problem is how do you show that you have this dedication? That is where a college degree comes in. Another problem is that a college degree also guarantees some fundamentals. In my job we hired a senior programmer that had a lot of experience but no college degree. In code reviews we figured out that he didn't even know how to pass variables to functions and declared everything as static I have no idea how he was hired for 10 years as a programmer. You get all sorts I guess. ETA: After that guy, we started screening for basic programming skills. Write a loop that prints numbers between 1-100 and does something if it is divisible by 3, 5 etc. You would be surprised how many people can't.
	Last edited by Daald; 2nd August 2012 at 07:01 AM.

2nd August 2012, 07:16 AM	#45
Weak Kitten Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lost and lonely...will you be my friend? Posts: 1,718	Originally Posted by aggle-rithm Good thing you didn't learn Silverlight. Nah, even a silly artist like me could tell that Silverlight was dogfood right from the beginning. Personally I really hope that the ridiculous demands in many help wanted ads are just HR departments being unreasonable. Otherwise I have to assume that I have gone through my whole life not realizing I was mentally deficient. I spent a lot of time learning art and thus my programing skills are sub-par at best. Still I see all these wanted ads that would require the artist to be able to program on a professional level, whip Photoshop and Illustrator into submission, and still be able to create professional quality drawings. Other ads ask for 3D artists who can model, skin, rig, and animate all at top level. When I was in college it was just assumed that those jobs would each be done by a different person because they require so much knowledge and skill. On top of all that these ads are usually offering minimal pay at best, not the sort of thing you would expect for professionals with 5-10 years experience. So either the upcoming graduates out of college are some sort of supermen who are going to drive all the subhumans like myself out of work...or there is something seriously wrong with the current hiring systems.
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2nd August 2012, 07:42 AM	#47
Weak Kitten Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lost and lonely...will you be my friend? Posts: 1,718	Good information Daald, thank you. I was just assuming that Silverlight was a bit of a vanity project by Microsoft. Not that I have anything against Microsoft! Anyway, I'm glad to hear that your company still believes in training your people. I wish more companies did that. I would happily work for a fraction of normal pay or even as an unpayed intern if I knew I would get proper training and a chance at a real job in exchange.
	__________________ A quick reminder to all participants that although incomprehensibility is not against the Membership Agreement, incivility is. Please try and remember this, and keep your exchanges polite and respectful. -arthwollipot

2nd August 2012, 07:48 AM	#48
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by Dcdrac How on earth is this level of indebedness going to help the USA? http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...wed-generation "Saddled with student debt? Welcome to America's screwed generation I may not look like it, but I am a modern-day serf. Saddled with thousands of dollars of student debt – debt that has been stripped of all consumer protections and is non-dischargeable in bankruptcy – I am part of a screwed generation. Earlier this year, the collective student loan burden in the United States passed the $1tn mark. Analysts are increasingly referring to a student loan bubble that could result in a crisis similar to the subprime mortgage crisis of 2008." Once you get a job, get a place $200 a month cheaper than you otherwise would so you won't have to live hand-to-mouth. I just finished paying off $40k credit card debt, and still have other debts to go. Bleats trying to stimulate politics into debt forgiveness are noted. Having said that, here's US history the past 20 years. Politician: I want to say I made more people go to college. Make loans easier! College Deans: I praise thee. Supply and demand. More cash, raise the rates. It's just like car companies selling you a car, nickle/dimeing you to death. A big fee increase = a small monthly payment increase. People: Why are college costs increasing double-digits annually, chronically now? Politician: Dean? Dean: I dunno. Politican: We dunno. Fin.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

2nd August 2012, 06:54 AM	#41
Daald Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 423	Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura This is assuming you can afford 3k a semester. Some of us can't. That is why I said that 24K is hardly crippling debt. Also, if you can't afford a 3k per semester tuition you would probably be eligible for some sort of scholarship or financial aid.

2nd August 2012, 06:59 AM	#44
Daald Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 423	Originally Posted by rwguinn Ha. I got a request for submittal on a job that required 5 years experience in Ideas Master Series 11, while that program version was in Beta Testing! And you're right about the 20 years experience--"how does 40K sound"--I've had it happen to me (Only it was from salaried $100K+ to hourly at a rate of $22/hr. (I had another offer on the table at $75/hr) You have to remember that a lot of those jobs could also be because they want to sponsor somebody and they are required to list the position while it really is not available. They make the terms pretty bad hoping for no bites.

2nd August 2012, 07:28 AM	#46
Daald Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 423	Originally Posted by Weak Kitten Nah, even a silly artist like me could tell that Silverlight was dogfood right from the beginning. Personally I really hope that the ridiculous demands in many help wanted ads are just HR departments being unreasonable. Otherwise I have to assume that I have gone through my whole life not realizing I was mentally deficient. I spent a lot of time learning art and thus my programing skills are sub-par at best. Still I see all these wanted ads that would require the artist to be able to program on a professional level, whip Photoshop and Illustrator into submission, and still be able to create professional quality drawings. Other ads ask for 3D artists who can model, skin, rig, and animate all at top level. When I was in college it was just assumed that those jobs would each be done by a different person because they require so much knowledge and skill. On top of all that these ads are usually offering minimal pay at best, not the sort of thing you would expect for professionals with 5-10 years experience. So either the upcoming graduates out of college are some sort of supermen who are going to drive all the subhumans like myself out of work...or there is something seriously wrong with the current hiring systems. As a person that learned some Silverlight I can say that it is not that bad. As a graphics person you really learn to use Expression Blend, which basically uses XAML. The XAML in Silverlight has been pretty much implemented in WinRT and that skill set would not be lost. P.S. As an aside. After failing for a long time to find good programmers my firm decided to raise our own. We hire at universities lately and take the time to train them ourselves. Has worked out great so far.

2nd August 2012, 07:55 AM	#49
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Also, some are getting economically ~~silly~~ not in demand degrees, and expecting to get jobs the way Californians want to live in the desert by the tens of millions and wonder why they have water problems.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? Last edited by Beerina; 2nd August 2012 at 07:59 AM.

2nd August 2012, 08:04 AM	#50
Daald Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 423	Originally Posted by Weak Kitten Good information Daald, thank you. I was just assuming that Silverlight was a bit of a vanity project by Microsoft. Not that I have anything against Microsoft! Anyway, I'm glad to hear that your company still believes in training your people. I wish more companies did that. I would happily work for a fraction of normal pay or even as an unpayed intern if I knew I would get proper training and a chance at a real job in exchange. I think training your people is vital nowadays if you do not wish to fall into mediocrity. I see a lot of the companies that hire us have a lot of seat warmers that do nothing all day, and the little bit they do is done poorly. At first I blamed work ethic, but then you realize it is the company itself. Unfortunately there are a lot of companies like that Some dude that has friends becomes IT manager. He knows nothing about IT. He then builds a development team. If he does not get lucky and hire a strong engineer off the bat, everything gets progressively worse from that point forward since a good person is a threat. You just sit back and watch the death spiral as they try to outsource it, then inshore it etc, never realizing that the rot is at the top.

2nd August 2012, 08:11 AM	#51
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,978	Originally Posted by Beerina Once you get a job, get a place $200 a month cheaper than you otherwise would so you won't have to live hand-to-mouth. Originally Posted by Beerina Also, some are getting economically ~~silly~~ not in demand degrees, and expecting to get jobs the way Californians want to live in the desert by the tens of millions and wonder why they have water problems. But you save $200/month in rent by living in the desert...

2nd August 2012, 09:19 AM	#52
Weak Kitten Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lost and lonely...will you be my friend? Posts: 1,718	Wow Daald, you just described one of my good friend's previous jobs. She was that one good engineer on the team and she was stressed to the point of weekly meltdowns. The rot did indeed go all the way to the top so she had no way to solve the problem, or even get them to hire her a competent assistant. It was so bad that even the clients were aware that the moment she broke they would be up a creek. She was so happy when she left that company but now she's concerned that all the stress may have caused her long term health issues. I never really understood why they wouldn't hire her the assistance she needed to keep the company running. Your explanation actually makes a good deal of sense.
	__________________ A quick reminder to all participants that although incomprehensibility is not against the Membership Agreement, incivility is. Please try and remember this, and keep your exchanges polite and respectful. -arthwollipot

2nd August 2012, 09:54 AM	#53
Silly Green Monkey Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 3,045	Originally Posted by Daald That is why I said that 24K is hardly crippling debt. Also, if you can't afford a 3k per semester tuition you would probably be eligible for some sort of scholarship or financial aid. It is if you have other debt on top of the student loans and only make twelve hundred a month, with the job taking back some of the money just to do it. My degree and experience sit rusting on the shelf.

2nd August 2012, 11:15 AM	#54
Daald Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 423	Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey It is if you have other debt on top of the student loans and only make twelve hundred a month, with the job taking back some of the money just to do it. My degree and experience sit rusting on the shelf. I thought we were talking about crippling debt from education, not the inability to get a job in your specified field and putting yourself further in debt.

2nd August 2012, 04:46 PM	#55
TellyKNeasuss Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Thornton, CO, USA Posts: 1,491	Originally Posted by The Don It's rare that I agree with WildCat but this ^. Even in the IT industry, there is a reluctance to train people "if we train them, they'll only leave" despite the fact the company saying this is relying on other companies (or self-starting employees) to provide trained staff. Employers who want skilled staff seem to want exactly the correct skills rather than cross-training. The end result is that the only people who are qualified for jobs are people whose current jobs have allowed them to keep up with the state-of-the-art.
	__________________ "Facts are stupid things." Ronald Reagan

2nd August 2012, 04:48 PM	#56
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,790	One thing that does annoy me about some college graduates (and I am one myself) is that they get a degree in a subject where it is screamingly obvious there are not many job opportunities,(like the fine arts )and then they bitch that they cannot get a high paying job on graduation.......

2nd August 2012, 04:55 PM	#57
TellyKNeasuss Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Thornton, CO, USA Posts: 1,491	Originally Posted by Daald Another problem is that a college degree also guarantees some fundamentals. In my job we hired a senior programmer that had a lot of experience but no college degree. In code reviews we figured out that he didn't even know how to pass variables to functions and declared everything as static I have no idea how he was hired for 10 years as a programmer. You get all sorts I guess. I don't agree that having a college degree guarantees fundamentals. I've worked with many programmers with Bachelor's, or even Master's, degrees who didn't know anything about data structures or what the differences between object-oriented, structured, and functional programming are. Or, for that matter, why it is a bad idea to put 108 'if' statements in a single function, as one person whom I worked with at the National Snow and Ice Data Center did (and was commended for her creative programming ability!!!).
	__________________ "Facts are stupid things." Ronald Reagan

2nd August 2012, 05:03 PM	#58
TellyKNeasuss Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Thornton, CO, USA Posts: 1,491	Originally Posted by Weak Kitten Personally I really hope that the ridiculous demands in many help wanted ads are just HR departments being unreasonable. Otherwise I have to assume that I have gone through my whole life not realizing I was mentally deficient. The ridiculous demands in help wanted ads are a way of limiting the number of applications that have to be dealt with. If you can eliminate most of the potential applicants by requiring skills and experience that few have, then you don't have to spend a lot of time reading resumes. Quote: So either the upcoming graduates out of college are some sort of supermen who are going to drive all the subhumans like myself out of work...or there is something seriously wrong with the current hiring systems. The current hiring system is that companies want people who can hit the ground running. Experience with the skills that the job currently requires is basically the only criteria. Long-term potential generally isn't a consideration, probably because companies don't have much expectation that most of their employees will be there long-term. Whether this constitutes a broken system is a matter of perspective.
	__________________ "Facts are stupid things." Ronald Reagan

2nd August 2012, 05:44 PM	#59
Sam.I.Am Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hunting Moose and Squirrel Posts: 4,154	Originally Posted by Weak Kitten The answer I've heard (whether it is right or wrong, I don't know) is that a four year degree demonstrates the ability to stick with something difficult for four years or more. Some places will wave the requirement a little if your resume demonstrates that you have worked reliably somewhere else for a similar length of time. The same applies to the military. If you have a good record (honorable discharge and a rank equal to or even a bit below what might be expected for the time that you were active) that can count as much as getting a degree in that respect. In addition many military jobs can be directly transferred into college credits. I have over 40 credits accrued just from my time in the navy that can be applied at just about any school and that's without ever setting foot on a university campus.
	__________________ "Swift, silent and deadly" was a part of my job description Upon hearing me say that my friend asked me "So you're a fart?"... About my avatar.

2nd August 2012, 06:03 PM	#60
Prometheus Acolyte of Víðarr Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: North of Reality Posts: 42,982	Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am The same applies to the military. If you have a good record (honorable discharge and a rank equal to or even a bit below what might be expected for the time that you were active) that can count as much as getting a degree in that respect. In addition many military jobs can be directly transferred into college credits. I have over 40 credits accrued just from my time in the navy that can be applied at just about any school and that's without ever setting foot on a university campus. My brother has six years of military experience, while I have six years of higher education (M.A.). He now makes three times as much as I do, after having entered the work force with less than half the debt (he bought a house instead of a college degree). He get's extra "combat veteran" benefits because he was active duty (sitting on a beach in Okinawa) during Desert Storm. I get congratulated a lot for having attended top tier schools....
	__________________ As Einstein once said, "If you can't think of something relevant to say, just make something up and attribute it to some really smart dead guy." "I find your lack of pith disturbing," - Darth Rotor .......... Don't be offended. I'm not calling you a serial killer. -- Ron Tomkins.

2nd August 2012, 06:18 PM	#61
Furcifer miscreant Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: hohm Posts: 13,379	Originally Posted by Polaris We could prevent the problem getting worse by changing the social view that the trades are undesirable low class occupations and that everybody should go to college. +1 My HS guidance counselor was a teacher essentially "saddled" by the teachers Union to take on the task, probably with a slight bump in pay. Being, shall we say out of his prime, he was mistaken assuming that "higher education" was the ultimate answer. IMO it should have went "You're 16, not sure exactly what you want to do in life? Get your HS diploma, take on a trade, make decent money for 5 years and then reevaluate where you want to be in 10 years. Being a ticketed Millwright or Electrician at 24 making $25 an hour or more is nothing to scoff at. You'll not only be debt free you'll be making good money, better money than most engineers at the same age with no work experience and $100K in debt"

2nd August 2012, 06:41 PM	#62
Furcifer miscreant Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: hohm Posts: 13,379	Originally Posted by WildCat Let me guess, that machine shop owner will only hire someone who has 5 years experience as a machinist doing the exact same job on the exact same equipment his shop does. And the moron wonders why he has no applicants? No one wants to train anyone anymore. Too true. Windsor had a rather large and respectable machining industry 20 some years ago. I have several friends that left HS, went into tool and die and were making +50K a year within a year or two. Another friend of mine that was in University with me left after first year to go into the business. By the time I graduated he was a shop supervisor making +70K a year. He's a smart guy and in the 90's the demand was so great anyone showing initiative was given the opportunity to move up and take over a shop because owners were chomping at the bit trying to get people to open up more shops. If I had to guess, the 70K a year anecdote is probably based on the fact that instead of 2 machinists he's got one working 60 hours a week trying to pick up the slack. If he had two they'd probably make 40 or 45K a year a piece. That's still not too shabby.

2nd August 2012, 07:07 PM	#63
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	Originally Posted by Beerina Also, some are getting economically ~~silly~~ not in demand degrees, and expecting to get jobs the way Californians want to live in the desert by the tens of millions and wonder why they have water problems. I can't help but wonder how much of their inability to find jobs is based on lack of creativity applying their degrees. I have an MFA in acting & my wife has an MFA in costuming. Many would consider these "silly" degrees but we make more than all of our friends except one couple & they were born into wealth. We were pushed to go to NYC or LA after school, but she stumbled across a renfaire job & it turned into quite a lucrative deal for us. Plus we got to travel all over the US in our 30s.
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	__________________ AVENGERS!!!.. Turn off the dark!

2nd August 2012, 07:40 PM	#64
SumDood Muse Join Date: May 2008 Location: Alabama Posts: 706	Originally Posted by Daald This is the reason we require it at my job. My employer cares about dedication and is aware of the fact that everything we do can be learned. The problem is how do you show that you have this dedication? That is where a college degree comes in. Another problem is that a college degree also guarantees some fundamentals. In my job we hired a senior programmer that had a lot of experience but no college degree. In code reviews we figured out that he didn't even know how to pass variables to functions and declared everything as static I have no idea how he was hired for 10 years as a programmer. You get all sorts I guess. ETA: After that guy, we started screening for basic programming skills. Write a loop that prints numbers between 1-100 and does something if it is divisible by 3, 5 etc. You would be surprised how many people can't. You guys still hiring?
	__________________ All that is necessary for ignorance to triumph is for intelligent men to do nothing.

2nd August 2012, 08:48 PM	#65
TellyKNeasuss Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Thornton, CO, USA Posts: 1,491	Originally Posted by Weak Kitten This has been my complaint lately too. Everyone wanted Photoshop and Aftereffects so I learned those two. But by the time I learned them I couldn't find work because everyone wanted Flash animators. So I spent my own money and free time to learn Flash and get it up to a reasonable level. Then suddenly no one wants Flash, they want HTML5. It takes time to learn these things and build up a portfolio and yet the things you have to know are constantly changing and no one wants to give you time to learn on the job. Sadly "self starter who learns quickly" just doesn't seem to be something employers care about. The reality is, as numerous managers and headhunters have told me, is that taking a class to learn some skill, or training yourself in some skill, has little value to an employer. In general, employers consider that if you haven't used a skill on the job, you don't have the skill, regardless of how many classes that you've taken.
	__________________ "Facts are stupid things." Ronald Reagan

3rd August 2012, 06:55 AM	#66
Daald Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 423	Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss I don't agree that having a college degree guarantees fundamentals. I've worked with many programmers with Bachelor's, or even Master's, degrees who didn't know anything about data structures or what the differences between object-oriented, structured, and functional programming are. Or, for that matter, why it is a bad idea to put 108 'if' statements in a single function, as one person whom I worked with at the National Snow and Ice Data Center did (and was commended for her creative programming ability!!!). Those were not the fundamentals I was talking about. I was talking about passing freaking variables to a function. I had a person come in that couldn't do even that. Another fundamental is that they have heard some of the jargon so I don't have to explain things that should be accepted without argument. For example, I had a programmer that I explained the 108 nested if statements are bad for readability. He argued with me for a week and still kept them. A college grad was explained the same thing. He nodded and fixed it never doing it again.

3rd August 2012, 06:58 AM	#67
Daald Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 423	Originally Posted by SumDood You guys still hiring? We have already hired around 10 college grads so far and one more is being hired in about a month. After that I think we are done for a while. We have to raise the current crop after all.

3rd August 2012, 07:39 AM	#68
TellyKNeasuss Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Thornton, CO, USA Posts: 1,491	Originally Posted by Daald Those were not the fundamentals I was talking about. I was talking about passing freaking variables to a function. I had a person come in that couldn't do even that. At the National Snow and Ice Data Center, I worked with a guy who had a Master's degree but who couldn't figure how to write subroutines in Perl!
	__________________ "Facts are stupid things." Ronald Reagan

3rd August 2012, 07:56 AM	#69
Daald Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 423	Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss At the National Snow and Ice Data Center, I worked with a guy who had a Master's degree but who couldn't figure how to write subroutines in Perl! That makes me both very sad and happy at the same time. It makes me sad that such a person could get a degree and happy that I will always have a job I wonder how he got through school. I am guessing he fudged the programming classes and got by on theory.

3rd August 2012, 08:05 AM	#70
TellyKNeasuss Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Thornton, CO, USA Posts: 1,491	Originally Posted by Daald That makes me both very sad and happy at the same time. It makes me sad that such a person could get a degree and happy that I will always have a job There is little correlation between hire-ability and competence. Because he hacked around a little with Java, which is the most in-demand language in my neck of the woods, he can list Java experience on his resume and find jobs. Since I didn't use Java (or C++), I have NO chance of ever getting a programming job (even though I've taken 2 classes in each language from an accredited college). To make this relevant to the topic, I have fellow students in my classes who can barely scrape through a freshman-level programming class and have little hope of ever getting through a Bachelor's program yet have programming jobs, while someone like me who essentially has a Master's degree in CS is totally unemployable. Quote: I wonder how he got through school. I am guessing he fudged the programming classes and got by on theory. I think that the situation is just the opposite. He learned a specific language or 2 from his classes but doesn't know anything about the general theory of why and how languages are designed. Therefore, it is hard for him to learn different languages.
	__________________ "Facts are stupid things." Ronald Reagan Last edited by TellyKNeasuss; 3rd August 2012 at 08:09 AM.

3rd August 2012, 08:13 AM	#71
Daald Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 423	Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss There is little correlation between hire-ability and competence. Because he hacked around a little with Java, which is the most in-demand language in my neck of the woods, he can list Java experience on his resume and find jobs. Since I didn't use Java (or C++), I have NO chance of ever getting a programming job (even though I've taken 2 classes in each language from an accredited college). To make this relevant to the topic, I have fellow students in my classes who can barely scrape through a freshman-level programming class and have little hope of ever getting through a Bachelor's program yet have programming jobs, while someone like me who essentially has a Master's degree in CS is totally unemployable. Depends on the employer. I guarantee that at my company (I am involved in hiring) competence is what matters. We do look for the good students. Just as an FYI, when we interview at colleges we only look at the people that have side programming projects while in school. We want people that would do programming regardless. Some can't comprehend why we do this, but we have had excellent results so far. Everyone we get is eager to learn as much as they can. Quote: I think that the situation is just the opposite. He learned a specific language or 2 from his classes but doesn't know anything about the general theory of why and how languages are designed. Therefore, it is hard for him to learn different languages. I guess that depends on the school. CS programs are usually more theory based from my impression.

3rd August 2012, 09:02 AM	#72
AlaskaBushPilot Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,609	When student loans are guaranteed by the government you get the same result as guaranteed loans for anything else: the lenders don't care whether you can pay them back. Because the government will. I did a couple in Grad School. They never asked me what my major was. They didn't care. How can banking work when nobody cares what you are borrowing the money for? Even in the case of the housing melt-down the government did not actually guarantee all those crazy derivative tranches of mortgage loans, but the banks got them covered anyway.

4th August 2012, 11:40 AM	#73
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,557	Originally Posted by commandlinegamer They'll leave if there are better working conditions elsewhere. Want to retain your staff? Pay better wages, give them more time off, and where possible, opportunities for advancement. The problem with that line of argument is that it is cheaper to offer those benifits to someone trained elsewhere than to train people up yourself.

4th August 2012, 11:46 AM	#74
Brattus Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: The bowels of death and despair Posts: 1,223	Originally Posted by Polaris We could prevent the problem getting worse by changing the social view that the trades are undesirable low class occupations and that everybody should go to college. Thank you!
	__________________ Whatever Brattus types is correct. - Brattus Anyone who quotes themselves is way cool - Brattus

4th August 2012, 07:36 PM	#75
TellyKNeasuss Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Thornton, CO, USA Posts: 1,491	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit The claim that there is a shortage of qualified workers is a myth. For virtually all jobs, there is no shortage of workers capable of doing the job. There are, however, jobs for which there is a shortage of workers who have experience doing that job.
	__________________ "Facts are stupid things." Ronald Reagan