Homeopaths offer to rebrand products as 'confectionery'

Dcdrac · 2nd August 2012, 08:29 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/th.../2012/aug/02/1

Homeopaths offer to rebrand products as 'confectionery

'Faced with an MHRA crackdown on unlicensed medicines, one of Britain's leading manufacturers of homeopathic remedies has indicated it would be prepared to relabel its products 'confectionery' to circumvent regulation

Resume · 2nd August 2012, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by Dcdrac

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/th.../2012/aug/02/1

Homeopaths offer to rebrand products as 'confectionery

'Faced with an MHRA crackdown on unlicensed medicines, one of Britain's leading manufacturers of homeopathic remedies has indicated it would be prepared to relabel its products 'confectionery' to circumvent regulation

Will there be crunchy frog?

Beerina · 2nd August 2012, 09:32 AM

Isn't the claim that it cures or treats something what makes it medicine? Otherwise bubblegum-flavored antibiotics for kids wouldn't count.

Unless they're trying to pull a fast one like pro wrestling did in New Jersey, where they went and declared themselves not a bonafide athletic contest so they could escape costly rules requiring an on-site ambulance and doctor at events.

AvalonXQ · 2nd August 2012, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

Isn't the claim that it cures or treats something what makes it medicine? Otherwise bubblegum-flavored antibiotics for kids wouldn't count.

Right, I think their claim is that they would just label/sell it as candy; the homeopaths would nonetheless know what products "treat" what and what to buy. It's a stop-gap measure to keep selling to exisitng customers while they get their products licensed.

Mudcat · 2nd August 2012, 10:24 AM

Looking forward to the day Homeopathic medicines have a label reading "This substance has not been scientifically verified to do anything more for user than ordinary water, it's reconmended you consult a physician and get real medication".

23_Tauri · 2nd August 2012, 11:10 AM

If they do, they'll be the most boring sweets ev-VAH.

"Nyom nyom... ewww, watery."

Fascination · 2nd August 2012, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Right, I think their claim is that they would just label/sell it as candy; the homeopaths would nonetheless know what products "treat" what and what to buy. It's a stop-gap measure to keep selling to exisitng customers while they get their products licensed.

This reminds me of how "Spice" (synthetic marijuana) was labeled as incense with a big sticker stating that it was not for human consumption. Bath salts were another example. Or how bongs are sold as "for tobacco use only". LOL

AvalonXQ · 2nd August 2012, 12:58 PM

Yeah, it wouldn't be hard to do. They just sell each candy variety with a random made-up name, and include in the description on the back "prepared as a 10CC dilution of XYZ." Homeopaths still know what to give their customers, but non-homepaths won't be subject to a claim on the box that it "treats conditions A, B, and C" like they are now.

Fascination · 2nd August 2012, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Yeah, it wouldn't be hard to do. They just sell each candy variety with a random made-up name, and include in the description on the back "prepared as a 10CC dilution of XYZ." Homeopaths still know what to give their customers, but non-homepaths won't be subject to a claim on the box that it "treats conditions A, B, and C" like they are now.

IMHO, some real quality candy like Godiva chocolate makes for much better medicine. Especially for treating a broken heart. Ben & Jerry's ice cream works wonders too.

Disclaimer: I am not a medical doctor nor do I play one on TV. Do not take this post as medical advice. In the case of a broken heart, always consult your physician first.

AvalonXQ · 2nd August 2012, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Fascination

Disclaimer: I am not a medical doctor nor do I play one on TV. Do not take this post as medical advice. In the case of a broken heart, always consult your physician first.

What if you were in love with your physician?

blue sock monkey · 2nd August 2012, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

What if you were in love with your physician?

Consult his wife.

The Fallen Serpent · 2nd August 2012, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by blue sock monkey

Consult his wife.

My physician doesn't have a wife. This is Texas, and they frown on that sort of thing.

Fascination · 2nd August 2012, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

What if you were in love with your physician?

Hmmmm...I guess you would have to see a different doctor.
Is there something you need to get off your chest Avalon?

Fascination · 2nd August 2012, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by The Fallen Serpent

My physician doesn't have a wife. This is Texas, and they frown on that sort of thing.

LOL!

AvalonXQ · 2nd August 2012, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Fascination

Is there something you need to get off your chest Avalon?

Nah, he got up almost an hour ago.

Fascination · 2nd August 2012, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

What if you were in love with your physician?

BTW, if you don't mind me asking...what is your avatar from? It looks really familiar but I can't place it. Is it from a video game? I'm a pretty hardcore gamer girl so I'll be a little miffed if it is since I can't remember where it's from right now.

A lot of people think my avatar is just a sexy woman but it's Death from Gaimen's Sandman comics.

AvalonXQ · 2nd August 2012, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Fascination

BTW, if you don't mind me asking...what is your avatar from? It looks really familiar but I can't place it. Is it from a video game? I'm a pretty hardcore gamer girl so I'll be a little miffed if it is since I can't remember where it's from right now.

It's Crono, the protagonist from Chrono Trigger.

I wouldn't feel too bad; most of those spiky-haired protagonist characters blur together after a while.

Yuri Nalyssus · 2nd August 2012, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by The Fallen Serpent

My physician doesn't have a wife. This is Texas, and they frown on that sort of thing.

Well, his sister then

Yuri

Fascination · 2nd August 2012, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

It's Crono, the protagonist from Chrono Trigger.

I wouldn't feel too bad; most of those spiky-haired protagonist characters blur together after a while.

Ah! Good ole Square Enix! Thank you for answering, it was driving me crazy trying to place it.
I'm currently replaying Red Dead Redemption. Okay, end of thread derail. Sorry everyone!

Almo · 2nd August 2012, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

but non-homepaths won't be subject to a claim on the box that it "treats conditions A, B, and C" like they are now.

http://homeoinfo.com/06_materia_medi...lococcinum.php

Look very, very carefully at that box. Homeopathic medicines do not claim the cure anything. This one only lists the symptoms of flu. It says nowhere that it treats them.

To me, if something has to go through that kind of sophistry to be on the shelf, it shouldn't be allowed to be on the shelf.

George152 · 2nd August 2012, 02:00 PM

What better description of sugar pills is there than confectionary

AvalonXQ · 2nd August 2012, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Almo

http://homeoinfo.com/06_materia_medi...lococcinum.php

Look very, very carefully at that box. Homeopathic medicines do not claim the cure anything. This one only lists the symptoms of flu. It says nowhere that it treats them.

It says it's "flu medicine." In my opinion, putting the words "flu medicine" on your product is a claim that your product is medicine that treats flu symptoms. I can't think of any other way to interpret those words.

Almo · 2nd August 2012, 02:39 PM

Hmm, good point. I was thinking of this:

http://boiron.ca/en/products/flu/oscillococcinum/

This is what the box looked like when I first saw it. THIS one doesn't claim to cure anything. The word "medicine" is there, but that's pretty weak.

RigidSoft · 2nd August 2012, 02:49 PM

Homeopolos! It's the treatment with the
hole...in it's theory.

You could have a Willy Wonka style tour of
their factory. Only how they make stuff is
less plausible.

Oompa Lumpa doopity doo.
I've got another message for you.
What can you treat when you sweets are
30c?,
Placebo effects don't work for me,
Read science books and then you will see,
There. are. more. molecules. of. pee.....
In your drinking wa-t-er.

mike3 · 2nd August 2012, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Almo

http://homeoinfo.com/06_materia_medi...lococcinum.php

Look very, very carefully at that box. Homeopathic medicines do not claim the cure anything. This one only lists the symptoms of flu. It says nowhere that it treats them.

To me, if something has to go through that kind of sophistry to be on the shelf, it shouldn't be allowed to be on the shelf.

It doesn't explicitly say so -- but it implies it by calling itself a "flu medicine".

dlorde · 2nd August 2012, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Almo

Hmm, good point. I was thinking of this:

http://boiron.ca/en/products/flu/oscillococcinum/

This is what the box looked like when I first saw it. THIS one doesn't claim to cure anything. The word "medicine" is there, but that's pretty weak.

I suspect that in the UK it would be called 'misleading' labelling, as a reasonable person would (be expected to) infer the contents were supposed to treat the listed symptoms.

steve s · 2nd August 2012, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Almo

http://homeoinfo.com/06_materia_medi...lococcinum.php

Look very, very carefully at that box. Homeopathic medicines do not claim the cure anything. This one only lists the symptoms of flu. It says nowhere that it treats them.

To me, if something has to go through that kind of sophistry to be on the shelf, it shouldn't be allowed to be on the shelf.

It's like "Apply directly to the forehead." Nowhere does that commercial ever mention the word 'headache.'

Steve S

Ocelot · 2nd August 2012, 03:36 PM

We already have precedents for this of course. If homoeopathic pills were reclassified as food rather than medicine it wouldn't be the first pill shaped food by a very long chalk. Holland and Barrett sell a shedload of the stuff. Unfortunately that doesn't stop medical claims being made for these pills. It just separates them.

People have a right to be wrong. Some people think Chelsea are a decent football team and idiotic as that might sound they have the right to voice that opinion. Just the same, others have the right to voice the opinion that anti oxidants promote well being and prolong life. That's free speech for you. Of course once it crosses the line from simple speech to sales patter then there's tighter regulations. If people are basing their decision to trade with you on a claim you make, then you may be called upon to substantiate it. Yet if someone else makes the claim for you, then you're home free.

Heck in practice you can often have the same person play both roles so long as the claim isn't made directly in the marketing of the product. Patrick Holford isn't selling his vitamins when he claims that vitamin C is better at fighting HIV infections than AZT and he isn't making such claims when he's selling the product.

xtifr · 2nd August 2012, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Ocelot

Just the same, others have the right to voice the opinion that anti oxidants promote well being and prolong life.

Hmm, I actually know (or knew) one of the researchers here at Berkeley whose work back in the seventies is probably at least partly responsible for this theory, and the fact is that there is a grain of truth to it if you're a rat!

Unfortunately, most of us are primates, not rodentia, and further research (by my friend, among others) concluded that the same thing is not true of primates. Still if our species ever dies off, and intelligent rats arise to take our place, I have no doubt that they will find the knowledge handy.

But as a theory, even though it's false, it's still head-and-shoulders above nonsense like homeopathy. It had enough going for it to justify some actual research at one time. The same cannot be said for "water memory" that magically skips pee and poo.

rjh01 · 2nd August 2012, 04:44 PM

If the pills do not advertise that they are for anything then a person would have to go to a homopath before getting anything. It would prevent people buying stuff without seeing anyone first.

Ocelot · 2nd August 2012, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

If the pills do not advertise that they are for anything then a person would have to go to a homopath before getting anything. It would prevent people buying stuff without seeing anyone first.

You say that like it's a good thing. Moreover you say it like you know it's true. If the information is removed from the packaging that doesn't mean people won't have access to the information other going to a homeopath.

I'd expect to see pharmacies stocking books on homeopathy if this were ever to happen. Or even more blatantly, information cards placed next to the products containing weasel words like "historically used for"

Ocelot · 2nd August 2012, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by xtifr

Hmm, I actually know (or knew) one of the researchers here at Berkeley whose work back in the seventies is probably at least partly responsible for this theory, and the fact is that there is a grain of truth to it if you're a rat!

I may have seen your friend on the telly the other day. An episode of Horizon presented by my favourite ever climate skeptic, Johnny Ball

rjh01 · 2nd August 2012, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by Ocelot

You say that like it's a good thing. Moreover you say it like you know it's true. If the information is removed from the packaging that doesn't mean people won't have access to the information other going to a homeopath.

I'd expect to see pharmacies stocking books on homeopathy if this were ever to happen. Or even more blatantly, information cards placed next to the products containing weasel words like "historically used for"

Which would mean that people would need to read the books first. Would the information cards have the same issues as information on the package? Except that it would be the seller making the claim rather than the manufacturer?

Edit. I use your own post in support of my post.

Originally Posted by Ocelot

People have a right to be wrong. Some people think Chelsea are a decent football team and idiotic as that might sound they have the right to voice that opinion. Just the same, others have the right to voice the opinion that anti oxidants promote well being and prolong life. That's free speech for you. Of course once it crosses the line from simple speech to sales patter then there's tighter regulations. If people are basing their decision to trade with you on a claim you make, then you may be called upon to substantiate it. Yet if someone else makes the claim for you, then you're home free.

Heck in practice you can often have the same person play both roles so long as the claim isn't made directly in the marketing of the product. Patrick Holford isn't selling his vitamins when he claims that vitamin C is better at fighting HIV infections than AZT and he isn't making such claims when he's selling the product.

Those books or information cards would be close to "made directly in the marketing of the product."

zooterkin · 2nd August 2012, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus

Well, his sister then

Yuri

Her sister, surely?

Brian-M · 2nd August 2012, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by Beerina

Isn't the claim that it cures or treats something what makes it medicine? Otherwise bubblegum-flavored antibiotics for kids wouldn't count.

Unless they're trying to pull a fast one like pro wrestling did in New Jersey, where they went and declared themselves not a bonafide athletic contest so they could escape costly rules requiring an on-site ambulance and doctor at events.

Over here, a lot of throat lozenges are sold as confectionery.

Foe example: Soothers Medicated Blackcurrant Lozenge

If you take a look at the top of the page, you'll see that it's listed under confectionery. Go into a physical store, and it'll be in a separate section in the confectionery aisle along with the other lozenges, breath mints and sugar-free gum.

I can see how it would make sense for homeopathic remedies to do the same.

EHocking · 3rd August 2012, 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by Fascination

...Disclaimer: I am not a medical doctor nor do I play one on TV. Do not take this post as medical advice.

This sort of disclaimer is quite redundant in a thread on homeopathy.

ddt · 3rd August 2012, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by Dcdrac

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/th.../2012/aug/02/1

Homeopaths offer to rebrand products as 'confectionery

'Faced with an MHRA crackdown on unlicensed medicines, one of Britain's leading manufacturers of homeopathic remedies has indicated it would be prepared to relabel its products 'confectionery' to circumvent regulation

Two quick questions on this.

1) doesn't the UK law on medicines have a special regulation for homeopathic "medicine"? The EU laws it's based on allow for that distinction, AFAIK.

2) wouldn't labeling their products as "confectionery" mean that the producers of homeopathic "medicine" need to get them licensed as being safe for consumption per food laws?

Reno · 3rd August 2012, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by Almo

Hmm, good point. I was thinking of this:

http://boiron.ca/en/products/flu/oscillococcinum/

This is what the box looked like when I first saw it. THIS one doesn't claim to cure anything. The word "medicine" is there, but that's pretty weak.

I see that the claim on the box is a 200C dilution. Is there enough water in the universe to dilute to this level?

zooterkin · 3rd August 2012, 05:40 AM

Originally Posted by Reno

I see that the claim on the box is a 200C dilution. Is there enough water in the universe to dilute to this level?

Not if you do it by simply adding more water until you reach the specified dilution.

DrDave · 3rd August 2012, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

~~Not~~Only if you do it by simply adding more water until you reach the specified dilution.

I think you've got that the wrong way round

2nd August 2012, 08:29 AM	#1
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,666	Homeopaths offer to rebrand products as 'confectionery' http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/th.../2012/aug/02/1 Homeopaths offer to rebrand products as 'confectionery 'Faced with an MHRA crackdown on unlicensed medicines, one of Britain's leading manufacturers of homeopathic remedies has indicated it would be prepared to relabel its products 'confectionery' to circumvent regulation
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,666

2nd August 2012, 08:50 AM	#2
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,015	Originally Posted by Dcdrac http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/th.../2012/aug/02/1 Homeopaths offer to rebrand products as 'confectionery 'Faced with an MHRA crackdown on unlicensed medicines, one of Britain's leading manufacturers of homeopathic remedies has indicated it would be prepared to relabel its products 'confectionery' to circumvent regulation Will there be crunchy frog?
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,015

2nd August 2012, 09:32 AM	#3
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Isn't the claim that it cures or treats something what makes it medicine? Otherwise bubblegum-flavored antibiotics for kids wouldn't count. Unless they're trying to pull a fast one like pro wrestling did in New Jersey, where they went and declared themselves not a bonafide athletic contest so they could escape costly rules requiring an on-site ambulance and doctor at events.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? Last edited by Beerina; 2nd August 2012 at 09:34 AM.

2nd August 2012, 09:44 AM	#4
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Beerina Isn't the claim that it cures or treats something what makes it medicine? Otherwise bubblegum-flavored antibiotics for kids wouldn't count. Right, I think their claim is that they would just label/sell it as candy; the homeopaths would nonetheless know what products "treat" what and what to buy. It's a stop-gap measure to keep selling to exisitng customers while they get their products licensed.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

2nd August 2012, 10:24 AM	#5
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,679	Looking forward to the day Homeopathic medicines have a label reading "This substance has not been scientifically verified to do anything more for user than ordinary water, it's reconmended you consult a physician and get real medication".
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven.

2nd August 2012, 11:10 AM	#6
23_Tauri Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: UK Posts: 4,947	If they do, they'll be the most boring sweets ev-VAH. "Nyom nyom... ewww, watery."
	__________________ Little Miss Witchcraft, she's not made of straw.

2nd August 2012, 11:45 AM	#7
Fascination Thinker Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 178	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Right, I think their claim is that they would just label/sell it as candy; the homeopaths would nonetheless know what products "treat" what and what to buy. It's a stop-gap measure to keep selling to exisitng customers while they get their products licensed. This reminds me of how "Spice" (synthetic marijuana) was labeled as incense with a big sticker stating that it was not for human consumption. Bath salts were another example. Or how bongs are sold as "for tobacco use only". LOL
Fascination Thinker Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 178

2nd August 2012, 12:58 PM	#8
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Yeah, it wouldn't be hard to do. They just sell each candy variety with a random made-up name, and include in the description on the back "prepared as a 10CC dilution of XYZ." Homeopaths still know what to give their customers, but non-homepaths won't be subject to a claim on the box that it "treats conditions A, B, and C" like they are now.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

2nd August 2012, 01:03 PM	#9
Fascination Thinker Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 178	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Yeah, it wouldn't be hard to do. They just sell each candy variety with a random made-up name, and include in the description on the back "prepared as a 10CC dilution of XYZ." Homeopaths still know what to give their customers, but non-homepaths won't be subject to a claim on the box that it "treats conditions A, B, and C" like they are now. IMHO, some real quality candy like Godiva chocolate makes for much better medicine. Especially for treating a broken heart. Ben & Jerry's ice cream works wonders too. Disclaimer: I am not a medical doctor nor do I play one on TV. Do not take this post as medical advice. In the case of a broken heart, always consult your physician first.
Fascination Thinker Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 178

2nd August 2012, 01:13 PM	#10
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Fascination Disclaimer: I am not a medical doctor nor do I play one on TV. Do not take this post as medical advice. In the case of a broken heart, always consult your physician first. What if you were in love with your physician?
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

2nd August 2012, 01:21 PM	#11
blue sock monkey Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: strumming my ukulele by Ol' Man River Posts: 1,954	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ What if you were in love with your physician? Consult his wife.
	__________________ Find Dr StrangeOlympics, or How I learned to stop worrying & love the squirrel at http://bluesockmonkey.deviantart.com...38979?offset=0. And still more cartoons at: http://bluesockmonkey.stripgenerator.com/gallery/

2nd August 2012, 01:24 PM	#12
The Fallen Serpent Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Not Oregon, Texas Posts: 1,922	Originally Posted by blue sock monkey Consult his wife. My physician doesn't have a wife. This is Texas, and they frown on that sort of thing.
	__________________ You don't use science to show that you are right, you use science to become right. - Randall Munroe

2nd August 2012, 01:26 PM	#13
Fascination Thinker Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 178	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ What if you were in love with your physician? Hmmmm...I guess you would have to see a different doctor. Is there something you need to get off your chest Avalon?
Fascination Thinker Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 178

2nd August 2012, 01:28 PM	#14
Fascination Thinker Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 178	Originally Posted by The Fallen Serpent My physician doesn't have a wife. This is Texas, and they frown on that sort of thing. LOL!
Fascination Thinker Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 178

2nd August 2012, 01:30 PM	#15
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Fascination Is there something you need to get off your chest Avalon? Nah, he got up almost an hour ago.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

2nd August 2012, 01:33 PM	#16
Fascination Thinker Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 178	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ What if you were in love with your physician? BTW, if you don't mind me asking...what is your avatar from? It looks really familiar but I can't place it. Is it from a video game? I'm a pretty hardcore gamer girl so I'll be a little miffed if it is since I can't remember where it's from right now. A lot of people think my avatar is just a sexy woman but it's Death from Gaimen's Sandman comics.
Fascination Thinker Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 178

2nd August 2012, 01:44 PM	#17
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Fascination BTW, if you don't mind me asking...what is your avatar from? It looks really familiar but I can't place it. Is it from a video game? I'm a pretty hardcore gamer girl so I'll be a little miffed if it is since I can't remember where it's from right now. It's Crono, the protagonist from Chrono Trigger. I wouldn't feel too bad; most of those spiky-haired protagonist characters blur together after a while.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

2nd August 2012, 01:50 PM	#18
Yuri Nalyssus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Ancient Isle of Avignuon Posts: 1,074	Originally Posted by The Fallen Serpent My physician doesn't have a wife. This is Texas, and they frown on that sort of thing. Well, his sister then Yuri
	__________________ "The test of democracy is freedom of criticism." -David Ben-Gurion Peasant: Now we see the violence inherent in the system. King: Shut up! Peasant: Come and see the violence inherent in the system, help, help! I’m being repressed! King: Bloody peasant! Peasant: Ooh, what a giveaway, did you hear that... that’s what I’m on about, d’you see him repressing me? You saw it didn’t you... - Monty Python and The Holy Grail

2nd August 2012, 01:53 PM	#19
Fascination Thinker Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 178	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ It's Crono, the protagonist from Chrono Trigger. I wouldn't feel too bad; most of those spiky-haired protagonist characters blur together after a while. Ah! Good ole Square Enix! Thank you for answering, it was driving me crazy trying to place it. I'm currently replaying Red Dead Redemption. Okay, end of thread derail. Sorry everyone!
Fascination Thinker Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 178

2nd August 2012, 01:53 PM	#20
Almo Masterblazer Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 6,405	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ but non-homepaths won't be subject to a claim on the box that it "treats conditions A, B, and C" like they are now. http://homeoinfo.com/06_materia_medi...lococcinum.php Look very, very carefully at that box. Homeopathic medicines do not claim the cure anything. This one only lists the symptoms of flu. It says nowhere that it treats them. To me, if something has to go through that kind of sophistry to be on the shelf, it shouldn't be allowed to be on the shelf.
	__________________ Almo! My Blog "No society ever collapsed because the poor had too much." — LeftySergeant "It may be that there is no body really at rest, to which the places and motions of others may be referred." –Issac Newton in the Principia

2nd August 2012, 02:00 PM	#21
George152 Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hamilton New Zealand Posts: 2,041	What better description of sugar pills is there than confectionary
	__________________ Unemployment isn't working

2nd August 2012, 02:22 PM	#22
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Almo http://homeoinfo.com/06_materia_medi...lococcinum.php Look very, very carefully at that box. Homeopathic medicines do not claim the cure anything. This one only lists the symptoms of flu. It says nowhere that it treats them. It says it's "flu medicine." In my opinion, putting the words "flu medicine" on your product is a claim that your product is medicine that treats flu symptoms. I can't think of any other way to interpret those words.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

2nd August 2012, 02:39 PM	#23
Almo Masterblazer Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 6,405	Hmm, good point. I was thinking of this: http://boiron.ca/en/products/flu/oscillococcinum/ This is what the box looked like when I first saw it. THIS one doesn't claim to cure anything. The word "medicine" is there, but that's pretty weak.
	__________________ Almo! My Blog "No society ever collapsed because the poor had too much." — LeftySergeant "It may be that there is no body really at rest, to which the places and motions of others may be referred." –Issac Newton in the Principia

2nd August 2012, 02:49 PM	#24
RigidSoft New Blood Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 8	Homeopolos! It's the treatment with the hole...in it's theory. You could have a Willy Wonka style tour of their factory. Only how they make stuff is less plausible. Oompa Lumpa doopity doo. I've got another message for you. What can you treat when you sweets are 30c?, Placebo effects don't work for me, Read science books and then you will see, There. are. more. molecules. of. pee..... In your drinking wa-t-er.
RigidSoft New Blood Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 8

2nd August 2012, 02:56 PM	#25
mike3 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,940	Originally Posted by Almo http://homeoinfo.com/06_materia_medi...lococcinum.php Look very, very carefully at that box. Homeopathic medicines do not claim the cure anything. This one only lists the symptoms of flu. It says nowhere that it treats them. To me, if something has to go through that kind of sophistry to be on the shelf, it shouldn't be allowed to be on the shelf. It doesn't explicitly say so -- but it implies it by calling itself a "flu medicine".
mike3 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,940	__________________ “Ego is subversive and devolutionary, truly destructive and terrible; ego is the generator of privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Ego is the fire that burns within the pit of hell, devouring and cosuming everything that enters and leaving utterly nothing behind. Ego is horrible, cruel, and restraining, the darkness of the world, and the doom and bane of man.” – a reaction to that famous Bertrand Russell quote.

2nd August 2012, 02:59 PM	#26
dlorde Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,646	Originally Posted by Almo Hmm, good point. I was thinking of this: http://boiron.ca/en/products/flu/oscillococcinum/ This is what the box looked like when I first saw it. THIS one doesn't claim to cure anything. The word "medicine" is there, but that's pretty weak. I suspect that in the UK it would be called 'misleading' labelling, as a reasonable person would (be expected to) infer the contents were supposed to treat the listed symptoms.
dlorde Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,646	__________________ Simple probability tells us that we should expect coincidences, and simple psychology tells us that we'll remember the ones we notice...

2nd August 2012, 03:01 PM	#27
steve s Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,659	Originally Posted by Almo http://homeoinfo.com/06_materia_medi...lococcinum.php Look very, very carefully at that box. Homeopathic medicines do not claim the cure anything. This one only lists the symptoms of flu. It says nowhere that it treats them. To me, if something has to go through that kind of sophistry to be on the shelf, it shouldn't be allowed to be on the shelf. It's like "Apply directly to the forehead." Nowhere does that commercial ever mention the word 'headache.' Steve S
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2nd August 2012, 03:36 PM	#28
Ocelot Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: London Posts: 3,016	We already have precedents for this of course. If homoeopathic pills were reclassified as food rather than medicine it wouldn't be the first pill shaped food by a very long chalk. Holland and Barrett sell a shedload of the stuff. Unfortunately that doesn't stop medical claims being made for these pills. It just separates them. People have a right to be wrong. Some people think Chelsea are a decent football team and idiotic as that might sound they have the right to voice that opinion. Just the same, others have the right to voice the opinion that anti oxidants promote well being and prolong life. That's free speech for you. Of course once it crosses the line from simple speech to sales patter then there's tighter regulations. If people are basing their decision to trade with you on a claim you make, then you may be called upon to substantiate it. Yet if someone else makes the claim for you, then you're home free. Heck in practice you can often have the same person play both roles so long as the claim isn't made directly in the marketing of the product. Patrick Holford isn't selling his vitamins when he claims that vitamin C is better at fighting HIV infections than AZT and he isn't making such claims when he's selling the product.
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2nd August 2012, 04:31 PM	#29
xtifr Muse Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Sol III Posts: 563	Originally Posted by Ocelot Just the same, others have the right to voice the opinion that anti oxidants promote well being and prolong life. Hmm, I actually know (or knew) one of the researchers here at Berkeley whose work back in the seventies is probably at least partly responsible for this theory, and the fact is that there is a grain of truth to it if you're a rat! Unfortunately, most of us are primates, not rodentia, and further research (by my friend, among others) concluded that the same thing is not true of primates. Still if our species ever dies off, and intelligent rats arise to take our place, I have no doubt that they will find the knowledge handy. But as a theory, even though it's false, it's still head-and-shoulders above nonsense like homeopathy. It had enough going for it to justify some actual research at one time. The same cannot be said for "water memory" that magically skips pee and poo.
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2nd August 2012, 04:44 PM	#30
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,172	If the pills do not advertise that they are for anything then a person would have to go to a homopath before getting anything. It would prevent people buying stuff without seeing anyone first.
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2nd August 2012, 04:53 PM	#31
Ocelot Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: London Posts: 3,016	Originally Posted by rjh01 If the pills do not advertise that they are for anything then a person would have to go to a homopath before getting anything. It would prevent people buying stuff without seeing anyone first. You say that like it's a good thing. Moreover you say it like you know it's true. If the information is removed from the packaging that doesn't mean people won't have access to the information other going to a homeopath. I'd expect to see pharmacies stocking books on homeopathy if this were ever to happen. Or even more blatantly, information cards placed next to the products containing weasel words like "historically used for"
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2nd August 2012, 05:09 PM	#32
Ocelot Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: London Posts: 3,016	Originally Posted by xtifr Hmm, I actually know (or knew) one of the researchers here at Berkeley whose work back in the seventies is probably at least partly responsible for this theory, and the fact is that there is a grain of truth to it if you're a rat! I may have seen your friend on the telly the other day. An episode of Horizon presented by my favourite ever climate skeptic, Johnny Ball
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2nd August 2012, 08:44 PM	#33
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,172	Originally Posted by Ocelot You say that like it's a good thing. Moreover you say it like you know it's true. If the information is removed from the packaging that doesn't mean people won't have access to the information other going to a homeopath. I'd expect to see pharmacies stocking books on homeopathy if this were ever to happen. Or even more blatantly, information cards placed next to the products containing weasel words like "historically used for" Which would mean that people would need to read the books first. Would the information cards have the same issues as information on the package? Except that it would be the seller making the claim rather than the manufacturer? Edit. I use your own post in support of my post. Originally Posted by Ocelot People have a right to be wrong. Some people think Chelsea are a decent football team and idiotic as that might sound they have the right to voice that opinion. Just the same, others have the right to voice the opinion that anti oxidants promote well being and prolong life. That's free speech for you. Of course once it crosses the line from simple speech to sales patter then there's tighter regulations. If people are basing their decision to trade with you on a claim you make, then you may be called upon to substantiate it. Yet if someone else makes the claim for you, then you're home free. Heck in practice you can often have the same person play both roles so long as the claim isn't made directly in the marketing of the product. Patrick Holford isn't selling his vitamins when he claims that vitamin C is better at fighting HIV infections than AZT and he isn't making such claims when he's selling the product. Those books or information cards would be close to "made directly in the marketing of the product."
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2nd August 2012, 10:58 PM	#34
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,556	Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus Well, his sister then Yuri Her sister, surely?
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2nd August 2012, 11:34 PM	#35
Brian-M Daydreamer Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Downunder Posts: 4,247	Originally Posted by Beerina Isn't the claim that it cures or treats something what makes it medicine? Otherwise bubblegum-flavored antibiotics for kids wouldn't count. Unless they're trying to pull a fast one like pro wrestling did in New Jersey, where they went and declared themselves not a bonafide athletic contest so they could escape costly rules requiring an on-site ambulance and doctor at events. Over here, a lot of throat lozenges are sold as confectionery. Foe example: Soothers Medicated Blackcurrant Lozenge If you take a look at the top of the page, you'll see that it's listed under confectionery. Go into a physical store, and it'll be in a separate section in the confectionery aisle along with the other lozenges, breath mints and sugar-free gum. I can see how it would make sense for homeopathic remedies to do the same.
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