My child, public school, and Veggietales - Page 2

Loss Leader · 6th July 2012, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by Careyp74

I didn't watch it, that is why I was asking. What was the religious theme in the pirate movie?

According to Wikipedia: The Veggies learn that a hero doesn't have to be tall, strong, and handsome to be useful.

The Christianity Today review praised the moral of the movie as being in line with a christian worldview, but complained that the religious nature of the message would not be clear to children. The reviewer decided that the movie is good enough to give "parents a good starting point for discussions."

Overall, the message of the movie is consistent with some christian beliefs, but also seems to be consistent with humanist beliefs as well.

Careyp74 · 6th July 2012, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Loss Leader

According to Wikipedia: The Veggies learn that a hero doesn't have to be tall, strong, and handsome to be useful.

The Christianity Today review praised the moral of the movie as being in line with a christian worldview, but complained that the religious nature of the message would not be clear to children. The reviewer decided that the movie is good enough to give "parents a good starting point for discussions."

Overall, the message of the movie is consistent with some christian beliefs, but also seems to be consistent with humanist beliefs as well.

Fair enough. I for one am not for throwing out the baby with the bath water. But this is a different argument. There are enough specific religious themes in the show to say that it is christian based. I am still not convinced though that the show is an indoctrination. Particularly with the anecdotes in this thread that show that the theme doesn't matter much with kids, as long as I don't see one on Sodom and Gomorrah, eh.

Gr8wight · 7th July 2012, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Careyp74

I didn't watch it, that is why I was asking. What was the religious theme in the pirate movie?

As someone else mentioned, the Christian message in the Pirates movie was toned down significantly, in favour of a generally Christian morality being espoused without any specific biblical relation. This is the only Veggie Tales production I am aware of for which this is true. There was a short-lived television series on NBC that was more secular in nature, but consisted of regular Veggie Tales episodes that were edited by the network to remove the overtly religious material.

godless dave · 10th July 2012, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Madalch

My kids were shown an episode of those while visiting a friend. One of the vegetables developed a tummy-ache after eating too much salsa. Hopefully, my discussion of how this would be cannibalism has made my kids sufficiently creeped out by VeggieTales that I won't have to worry about indoctrination.

I like the cut of your jib.

Muldur · 10th July 2012, 01:30 PM

You all need to take deep breaths, losen your sphincters, and stop worrying that your kids are going to be "ruined" if they see or hear something with religious origins or connotations.

No one is holding a gun to your precious little princes and princesses and forcing them to convert. Yours and their rights are thus respected.

Go about your business and leave the rest of us alone.

Respect OUR rights.

godless dave · 10th July 2012, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Muldur

You all need to take deep breaths, losen your sphincters, and stop worrying that your kids are going to be "ruined" if they see or hear something with religious origins or connotations.

No one is holding a gun to your precious little princes and princesses and forcing them to convert. Yours and their rights are thus respected.

Go about your business and leave the rest of us alone.

Respect OUR rights.

What right is not being respected here? Who is not being left alone?

Madalch · 10th July 2012, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by Muldur

No one is holding a gun to your precious little princes and princesses and forcing them to convert. Yours and their rights are thus respected.

Go about your business and leave the rest of us alone.

Respect OUR rights.

Your "right" to preach religion to our kids during class? I don't think so.

I've decided to label my latest batch of wine as "VeggieTales", as it's made from carrots and potatoes, and it has a sanctimonious flavour.

Gr8wight · 10th July 2012, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Muldur

You all need to take deep breaths, losen your sphincters, and stop worrying that your kids are going to be "ruined" if they see or hear something with religious origins or connotations.

No one is holding a gun to your precious little princes and princesses and forcing them to convert. Yours and their rights are thus respected.

Go about your business and leave the rest of us alone.

Respect OUR rights.

Really? Did you really just say that? Are you really that far out in left field in your understanding of this issue? Somehow I doubt it. I consider your statement to be disingenuous at best.

Shalamar · 10th July 2012, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Muldur

You all need to take deep breaths, losen your sphincters, and stop worrying that your kids are going to be "ruined" if they see or hear something with religious origins or connotations.

No one is holding a gun to your precious little princes and princesses and forcing them to convert. Yours and their rights are thus respected.

Go about your business and leave the rest of us alone.

Respect OUR rights.

You need to take a deep breath, loosen your sphincter, and stop worrying that your kids are going to be "ruined" if they see or hear something without religious origins or connotations.

No one is holding a gun to your precious little princes and princesses and forcing them to deconvert. Yours and their rights are thus respected.

Go about your business and leave the rest of us alone.

Respect OUR rights.

... Or do these rights only flow in one direction?

Dancing David · 11th July 2012, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Tenchiken

Quick update... unfortunately due to the holiday, we haven't gotten very far yet, but the latest classes have not involved the show (a nice start).

We started with an innocent inquiry as to the details of the lessons that day, and so far it looks like the video viewed was directly related to a "vegetables" assignment for some nutritional topic. I have asked for more details, and hope to get things answered properly next week.

That sounds like a really weak link to nutrition, unless it was specific to the topic.

Dancing David · 11th July 2012, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Muldur

You all need to take deep breaths, losen your sphincters, and stop worrying that your kids are going to be "ruined" if they see or hear something with religious origins or connotations.

No one is holding a gun to your precious little princes and princesses and forcing them to convert. Yours and their rights are thus respected.

Go about your business and leave the rest of us alone.

Respect OUR rights.

Nope. religion has no place in public schools, period.

Get over it, unless you want us goddess worshiping pagans to have OUR rights as well.

Careyp74 · 11th July 2012, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

That sounds like a really weak link to nutrition, unless it was specific to the topic.

Sounds like a really uninformed teacher. Having a topic on nutrition and the importance of vegetables, leading to a screening of VeggieTales.

I hope she doesn't show Caligula when they cover the Roman Empire.

Dancing David · 11th July 2012, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Careyp74

Sounds like a really uninformed teacher. Having a topic on nutrition and the importance of vegetables, leading to a screening of VeggieTales.

I hope she doesn't show Caligula when they cover the Roman Empire.

More likely Ben Hur

Madalch · 11th July 2012, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Careyp74

Sounds like a really uninformed teacher. Having a topic on nutrition and the importance of vegetables, leading to a screening of VeggieTales.

I hope she doesn't show Caligula when they cover the Roman Empire.

Well, you have to admit, it would be very informative for the little tykes.

Almo · 11th July 2012, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Careyp74

They meet an asparagus, and didn't know what he was. We then learn the taxonomic name for asparagus, a little too much for the target age group.

That was a bit for the adults. Good children's shows are fun for adults to watch, as well.

Like the Kermit News Flash segment on Sesame Street when he was looking for the Old Woman Who Lived In A Shoe. She was a member of the Gray Panthers bowling club. A joke taken from the name of the Black Panthers in a kid's show is definitely aimed at the parents. There were a couple other adult jokes in there, too.

Sorry, I know that was off-topic.

Careyp74 · 11th July 2012, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Almo

She was a member of the Gray Panthers bowling club. A joke taken from the name of the Black Panthers in a kid's show is definitely aimed at the parents.

You never heard of the actual Gray Panthers? They might have taken their name from the Black Panthers, but I don't think Sesame Street would have parodied that group specifically.

Tenchiken · 15th July 2012, 10:36 PM

Trolls aside, I think things have turned out (thankfully) milder than the initial elements indicated.

We did our innocent inquiry (note to the teacher in writing), and the reply from the teacher (also in writing!) seems to indicate unfortunate wording in the note regarding this particular.

For the sake of simplicity, here's the transcription:

"I just wanted to clarify, we did not watch an episode of VeggiTales. We were learning about food and used the characters to identify different vegetables."

While there is an obvious chance that this is backpedaling to avoid flame, or even after another parent complained, I suspect that this is a limited incident. Thankfully, this particular school session (a summer course) is ending this week, so we are instead just planning to keep an eye on the curriculum of her coming schooling. For what it's worth, my kid's interest in the program seems to have quickly waned, so it may be the case of just the single exposure, and limited at that.

Unfortunately, my child just doesn't have the communication skills yet to sufficiently determine with any accuracy a "Us vs Them" recounting of the situation. I have had to rely on the notes directly from the teaching staff, and watching my daughter's behavior directly, to try to suss out exactly what actually happened vs external indications.

Before the proper schoolyear begins in September, we do have a scheduled meeting with members of the district for an IEP (Individual educational plan, for those not experienced here). I am going to take the various notes in entirety, and at the END of the meeting gently inquire that they just have a look at things. Since the meeting is recorded, including by myself during for a personal copy, this could just be a simple bit of insurance in case future issues arise.

Thanks for the level-headed suggestions regarding next steps. I am going to probably stay at an elevated state of attention for a bit, just in case...

---- Trollbait reply follows... I know I shouldn't, but alas I am already "going to hell as an unrepentant sinner"....

And for the troll, I will bite for this particular.... If you had a 2nd/3rd grade child, and they came home showing a sudden interest killing animals out of the blue, you would perk up and pay attention. Some folks consider hunting as a child a very normal practice, others consider it horror. The point of this is not about if learning about religion is wrong or right... it's about WHERE they learn it, and the law established around this.

I do NOT want my child to learn about christianity via cartoons. Or in a setting portrayed as FACTUAL (note the rules about persons in place of authority) outside of my immediate purview.

How many Jewish parents would enjoy learning that their kid was being shown videos with a Nazi flavor.... Yes this is extreme example, but by the same token, were the Crusades, or the Spanish Inquisition any less horrible?

It's not a public schools place to make that judgement.

Careyp74 · 16th July 2012, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by Tenchiken

"I just wanted to clarify, we did not watch an episode of VeggiTales. We were learning about food and used the characters to identify different vegetables."

What was it that started all of this? If they weren't being shown VeggieTales, what made you think that they were?

Tenchiken · 20th July 2012, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by Careyp74

What was it that started all of this? If they weren't being shown VeggieTales, what made you think that they were?

We get daily written notes from the staff about each day. Initially we had received a note as such stating watched veggietales as one of the things they did... this didn't stand out to my wife but did to me after my kid then started looking for more on Netflix that evening.

The note itself was very brief, but that plus the immediate interest of my child prompted this thread etc.

dropzone · 20th July 2012, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by Tenchiken

Ultimately, the reason this caused alarm with us was that my daughter immediately tried to go find more of the show on Netflix. While we closely monitor the stuff she watches, it is disconcerting that she obviously remembered enough to actively seek it out.

She is seeking them out because they really are good and fun and funny enough for adults, even atheists. Even the Bible-based ones (and they only deal with the OT, AFAIK) are a little bit religion, quite a bit more "we should all try to get along," and a lot of Larry the Cucumber exasperating Bob the Tomato. No, they don't belong in a public school, but they are also not going to turn your daughter into a crazy fundie. She probably won't notice the religion, but she might learn some Spanish.

ETA: No religious thought was expressed in that video. You will not get the religion cooties by viewing it.

Miss_Kitt · 9th August 2012, 02:18 PM

I let my kid watch certain VeggieTales things: the Pirates movie and the whole Larry's Silly Songs collection -- because they're funny and fun. Some friends gave her some other videos, and we had a conversation about the Christian content. I am a big fan of many of the Silly Songs (I wonder if the link in the post above goes to the Song of the Cucumber, with Bob translating?) and thought the pirate movie was a hoot.

HOWEVER, the general episodes and most of the videos are always about Christian issues and actually have a bibilical reading as the summation. So that makes them inappropriate for a public school classroom. This is particularly an issue for the younger grades, where kids tend to think that anything the teacher says or presents is TRUE.

I raise a lot of eyebrows at our school because when they say the Pledge of Allegiance, neither BG nor I (sometimes I'm still there at flag time) say "under God" during it. We are respectfully silent; we don't make a fuss; but we don't say it. I just tell them that it was added in the 50's during the anti-Communist flutter (McCarthy hearings, etc.) and that I'm a traditionalist.

Good luck with the coming school year, MK

PS Think about getting those silly songs, at least from the library. They're pretty funny.

farnarkle · 14th August 2012, 07:24 PM

This thread is interesting for me because here in Australia, religious education is only taught in catholic schools, independent schools, private schools etc.

If a state funded school here started using VeggieTales in the classroom, I'm pretty sure that parents would be knocking the doors down and demanding change.

Careyp74 · 15th August 2012, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by farnarkle

This thread is interesting for me because here in Australia, religious education is only taught in catholic schools, independent schools, private schools etc.

If a state funded school here started using VeggieTales in the classroom, I'm pretty sure that parents would be knocking the doors down and demanding change.

Well, as we have learned, that wasn't the case. The only thing I see wrong is unlicensed use of the likenesses of copywrited characters.

farnarkle · 15th August 2012, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Careyp74

The only thing I see wrong is unlicensed use of the likenesses of copywrited characters.

"If you do not cease and desist in your use of the VeggeTales characters and their likenesses, a large carrot with a bat shall visit you in the night."

Trish Randall · 3rd September 2012, 12:47 AM

When I was in 5th grade, many years ago, I was in a public school that had a tradition of holding a Christmas concert every year. A few Jehovah's Witness families moved into town & complained, and lo, that year, it was switched to a Winter Concert because of the complaints of those couple of families. No kids were pulled out of activities, no families were mocked or mistreated. The school just switched to a non-reigious, Constitutionally appropriate Winter Concert. Sometimes people jut do the right thing.

Have to say about Veggie Tales - my sister-in-law who is very churchy, had her kids watch them all. I thought they were awful - but it also reminded me of how Davy & Goliath - a religious animated show in my childhood - convinced me that religion was way more boring than Bugs Bunny & Wylie Coyote & Road Runner.

Dancing David · 3rd September 2012, 05:04 AM

Welcome Trish!

Trish Randall · 3rd September 2012, 09:04 PM

Hi, Thanks for the welcome, dancing David.

Foolmewunz · 3rd September 2012, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by Careyp74

Fair enough. I for one am not for throwing out the baby with the bath water. But this is a different argument. There are enough specific religious themes in the show to say that it is christian based. I am still not convinced though that the show is an indoctrination. Particularly with the anecdotes in this thread that show that the theme doesn't matter much with kids, as long as I don't see one on Sodom and Gomorrah, eh.

It's a religious show. It's creator says so. Part of the confusion is that it was originally a direct-to-DVD series of shows, and they were all on religious themes... specifically, Christian themes. NBC picked the show up and aired some of those episodes but cut out the religious references and made them cut the closing line of every DVD about The Big Guy making all kids special and loving them.

I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with them being religious if they stayed with the direct sales approach, but once it's shown on broadcast or cable TV, then I agree with NBC that it needed to be neutralized. And I certainly don't think they belong, in any form, in a public school.

Having said that, I do not have any recent history of the production company. It's a pretty long reach to pull a Christian theme out of that Pirates movie. They may have toned down the rhetoric in the hopes of getting a broader distributorship, or even realized that a whole bunch of Chinese and Japanese and Thai people are Buddhists and Taoists and Confucianists and just want to look at the funny little vegetable characters doing goofy little kids things.

I had to look them up. I didn't know anything about the series, but had seen the Pirate movie and a few episodes dubbed into Cantonese, but was not aware that there was something called "Veggie Tales".

Meh? I don't like the characters because they just don't seem to be at all related to the vegetable they're playing. I mean, first of all, a tomato isn't a vegetable, and secondly, no self-respecting tomato would play straight man to a cucumber! Gimme a break!

They're just there as vegetables for some reason.

Ryokan · 4th September 2012, 10:13 AM

I would not want my children to learn any values from this video.

Wildy · 4th September 2012, 12:09 PM

I remember that episode. The longer version has this pretty good mocking song from the people of Jericho.

AvalonXQ · 4th September 2012, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Ryokan

I would not want my children to learn any values from this video.

I would expect not. The moral of that video is something very specifically religious -- that we should trust in God and follow His directions even when they don't make sense to us.

It's similar to the message of Lewis's Perelandra.

Ryokan · 4th September 2012, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

I would expect not. The moral of that video is something very specifically religious -- that we should trust in God and follow His directions even when they don't make sense to us.

And even if it means killing and murdering. Just trust God and do what he tells you. Yes, I know, I did get the message. It was quite clear.

HotNostril · 2nd October 2012, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Madalch

My kids were shown an episode of those while visiting a friend. One of the vegetables developed a tummy-ache after eating too much salsa. Hopefully, my discussion of how this would be cannibalism has made my kids sufficiently creeped out by VeggieTales that I won't have to worry about indoctrination.

That was brilliant! Lol

fuelair · 2nd October 2012, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Tenchiken

Trolls aside, I think things have turned out (thankfully) milder than the initial elements indicated.

We did our innocent inquiry (note to the teacher in writing), and the reply from the teacher (also in writing!) seems to indicate unfortunate wording in the note regarding this particular.

For the sake of simplicity, here's the transcription:

"I just wanted to clarify, we did not watch an episode of VeggiTales. We were learning about food and used the characters to identify different vegetables."

While there is an obvious chance that this is backpedaling to avoid flame, or even after another parent complained, I suspect that this is a limited incident. Thankfully, this particular school session (a summer course) is ending this week, so we are instead just planning to keep an eye on the curriculum of her coming schooling. For what it's worth, my kid's interest in the program seems to have quickly waned, so it may be the case of just the single exposure, and limited at that.

Unfortunately, my child just doesn't have the communication skills yet to sufficiently determine with any accuracy a "Us vs Them" recounting of the situation. I have had to rely on the notes directly from the teaching staff, and watching my daughter's behavior directly, to try to suss out exactly what actually happened vs external indications.

Before the proper schoolyear begins in September, we do have a scheduled meeting with members of the district for an IEP (Individual educational plan, for those not experienced here). I am going to take the various notes in entirety, and at the END of the meeting gently inquire that they just have a look at things. Since the meeting is recorded, including by myself during for a personal copy, this could just be a simple bit of insurance in case future issues arise.

Thanks for the level-headed suggestions regarding next steps. I am going to probably stay at an elevated state of attention for a bit, just in case...

---- Trollbait reply follows... I know I shouldn't, but alas I am already "going to hell as an unrepentant sinner"....

And for the troll, I will bite for this particular.... If you had a 2nd/3rd grade child, and they came home showing a sudden interest killing animals out of the blue, you would perk up and pay attention. Some folks consider hunting as a child a very normal practice, others consider it horror. The point of this is not about if learning about religion is wrong or right... it's about WHERE they learn it, and the law established around this.

I do NOT want my child to learn about christianity via cartoons. Or in a setting portrayed as FACTUAL (note the rules about persons in place of authority) outside of my immediate purview.

How many Jewish parents would enjoy learning that their kid was being shown videos with a Nazi flavor.... Yes this is extreme example, but by the same token, were the Crusades, or the Spanish Inquisition any less horrible?

It's not a public schools place to make that judgement.

Pretty sure IEP is Fed requirement and pretty much universal in name and form in the US..................

fuelair · 2nd October 2012, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by HotNostril

That was brilliant! Lol

Indeed it was! We have a good amount of this around these parts........

16.5 · 3rd October 2012, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by Tenchiken

And for the troll, I will bite for this particular.... If you had a 2nd/3rd grade child, and they came home showing a sudden interest killing animals out of the blue, you would perk up and pay attention. Some folks consider hunting as a child a very normal practice, others consider it horror. The point of this is not about if learning about religion is wrong or right... it's about WHERE they learn it, and the law established around this.

I do NOT want my child to learn about christianity via cartoons. Or in a setting portrayed as FACTUAL (note the rules about persons in place of authority) outside of my immediate purview.

How many Jewish parents would enjoy learning that their kid was being shown videos with a Nazi flavor.... Yes this is extreme example, but by the same token, were the Crusades, or the Spanish Inquisition any less horrible?

It's not a public schools place to make that judgement.

I'd be more concerned if my kid came home talking about not hunting animals.

And yes, the Holocaust was much more horrible by many orders of magnitude than the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition

3point14 · 4th October 2012, 03:47 AM

Originally Posted by Muldur

You all need to take deep breaths, losen your sphincters, and stop worrying that your kids are going to be "ruined" if they see or hear something with religious origins or connotations.

No one is holding a gun to your precious little princes and princesses and forcing them to convert. Yours and their rights are thus respected.

Go about your business and leave the rest of us alone.

Respect OUR rights.

Cool.

Can they do a 'There is no god and it's all a fairytale probably based on the ramblings of a mescalined-up stone age lunatic and supported through the years by those who found religiosity useful for controlling the masses, but please be nice to the deluded ones as their brains are slightly mushy' class?

Dancing David · 4th October 2012, 04:23 AM

Commandment 1: Thou shalt have no other fictional characters before me.

StellaByStralight · 5th October 2012, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by Tenchiken

I just recently found out that my 3rd grade child is being shown Veggietales, unedited, during classtime in a public Missouri school. I am going to discuss with the teacher and other faculty regarding my wishes that my kid is not exposed to religiously-based videos of that type, but I am trying to plan the best way to approach this. From my research, I am expecting that they will separate my child from the class for the duration, and personally I am of the opinion that this is not appropriate.

Does anyone else here have experience with having to ask a public school to not include religious imagery and/or non-historically relevant content? At this young an age, my child is still very easily influenced, and in my specific she is high-function autistic, making this too soon for me to be comfortable with explaining that what she is being shown at school as "educational" is fiction.

I unfortunately do not have the option of complete home-schooling (nor would I want to isolate my child from peers), but would love to hear any suggestions. My knowledge of relevant laws (Missouri) is very limited, and I only am personally aware of laws related to guided prayers. While I personally feel any religious rhetoric presented as "educational" is inappropriate, unfortunately I fear that this particular has not been dealt with in case law.

I am also fearful that, if this is just a single teacher and not a larger accepted curriculum, my child will then be singled out by a potentially angry freshly chastised christian teacher.

Any ideas, comments or warnings would be greatly appreciated!

I had a similar problem with my twin daughters. They attended public grade school and received a regular dosing of religion from their third grade teacher. I flipped out. I honestly think the problem is at root "political" and not "religious".

truethat · 5th October 2012, 08:59 AM

Lots of good points and I will weigh in as a mom and a person who teaches teachers. The law is on your side. However the teacher's first response in these types of situations is to provide an "alternative assignment" for your child. It's the protocol so it's not necessarily that the teacher is trying to blow you off. That's just the standard OP.

I would suggest that you write a note, do not speak to them about this but rather write a note to the teacher, the guidance counselor and the principal. Explain that you feel awkward about the situation and obviously don't want to ruin it for the other children but that by isolating or excluding your child you are faced with the idea of ostracizing your child constantly because of this issue. Is there a possibility that an alternative could be chosen.

There is an alternative and the teachers choice of what to present in the classroom is always her own decision and the schools. It is not backed up by the Superintendent's curriculum.

On that note include a note the the Super as well. In the end you will probably completely avoid the confrontation because once it's documented it goes into the child's file and if they buck you not only will you win but you can sue them for damages as well.

6th July 2012, 07:58 AM	#41
Loss Leader Opinionated Jerk Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: New York Posts: 11,885	Originally Posted by Careyp74 I didn't watch it, that is why I was asking. What was the religious theme in the pirate movie? According to Wikipedia: The Veggies learn that a hero doesn't have to be tall, strong, and handsome to be useful. The Christianity Today review praised the moral of the movie as being in line with a christian worldview, but complained that the religious nature of the message would not be clear to children. The reviewer decided that the movie is good enough to give "parents a good starting point for discussions." Overall, the message of the movie is consistent with some christian beliefs, but also seems to be consistent with humanist beliefs as well.
	__________________ Follow me on Twitter! @LossLeader This force is receiving all the right to vote through the use of magic. - Miernik Wieslaw <NEW> VOTE FOR ME JUST BECAUSE <NEW>

7th July 2012, 08:52 PM	#43
Gr8wight red-shirted crewman Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,641	Originally Posted by Careyp74 I didn't watch it, that is why I was asking. What was the religious theme in the pirate movie? As someone else mentioned, the Christian message in the Pirates movie was toned down significantly, in favour of a generally Christian morality being espoused without any specific biblical relation. This is the only Veggie Tales production I am aware of for which this is true. There was a short-lived television series on NBC that was more secular in nature, but consisted of regular Veggie Tales episodes that were edited by the network to remove the overtly religious material.
	__________________ Aurora Walking Vacation "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight and understanding."--Marshall McLuhan

10th July 2012, 12:55 PM	#44
godless dave Great Dalmuti Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: St. Paul, Minnesota Posts: 6,126	Originally Posted by Madalch My kids were shown an episode of those while visiting a friend. One of the vegetables developed a tummy-ache after eating too much salsa. Hopefully, my discussion of how this would be cannibalism has made my kids sufficiently creeped out by VeggieTales that I won't have to worry about indoctrination. I like the cut of your jib.
	__________________ "If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm

10th July 2012, 01:30 PM	#45
Muldur Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 1,965	You all need to take deep breaths, losen your sphincters, and stop worrying that your kids are going to be "ruined" if they see or hear something with religious origins or connotations. No one is holding a gun to your precious little princes and princesses and forcing them to convert. Yours and their rights are thus respected. Go about your business and leave the rest of us alone. Respect OUR rights.
Muldur Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 1,965

10th July 2012, 01:38 PM	#46
godless dave Great Dalmuti Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: St. Paul, Minnesota Posts: 6,126	Originally Posted by Muldur You all need to take deep breaths, losen your sphincters, and stop worrying that your kids are going to be "ruined" if they see or hear something with religious origins or connotations. No one is holding a gun to your precious little princes and princesses and forcing them to convert. Yours and their rights are thus respected. Go about your business and leave the rest of us alone. Respect OUR rights. What right is not being respected here? Who is not being left alone?
	__________________ "If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm

6th July 2012, 08:06 AM	#42
Careyp74 Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 3,407	Originally Posted by Loss Leader According to Wikipedia: The Veggies learn that a hero doesn't have to be tall, strong, and handsome to be useful. The Christianity Today review praised the moral of the movie as being in line with a christian worldview, but complained that the religious nature of the message would not be clear to children. The reviewer decided that the movie is good enough to give "parents a good starting point for discussions." Overall, the message of the movie is consistent with some christian beliefs, but also seems to be consistent with humanist beliefs as well. Fair enough. I for one am not for throwing out the baby with the bath water. But this is a different argument. There are enough specific religious themes in the show to say that it is christian based. I am still not convinced though that the show is an indoctrination. Particularly with the anecdotes in this thread that show that the theme doesn't matter much with kids, as long as I don't see one on Sodom and Gomorrah, eh.

10th July 2012, 03:49 PM	#47
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,702	Originally Posted by Muldur No one is holding a gun to your precious little princes and princesses and forcing them to convert. Yours and their rights are thus respected. Go about your business and leave the rest of us alone. Respect OUR rights. Your "right" to preach religion to our kids during class? I don't think so. I've decided to label my latest batch of wine as "VeggieTales", as it's made from carrots and potatoes, and it has a sanctimonious flavour.
	__________________ As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker

10th July 2012, 04:17 PM	#48
Gr8wight red-shirted crewman Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,641	Originally Posted by Muldur You all need to take deep breaths, losen your sphincters, and stop worrying that your kids are going to be "ruined" if they see or hear something with religious origins or connotations. No one is holding a gun to your precious little princes and princesses and forcing them to convert. Yours and their rights are thus respected. Go about your business and leave the rest of us alone. Respect OUR rights. Really? Did you really just say that? Are you really that far out in left field in your understanding of this issue? Somehow I doubt it. I consider your statement to be disingenuous at best.
	__________________ Aurora Walking Vacation "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight and understanding."--Marshall McLuhan

10th July 2012, 07:06 PM	#49
Shalamar Dark Lord of the JREF Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Super Star Destroyer Executor Posts: 2,396	Originally Posted by Muldur You all need to take deep breaths, losen your sphincters, and stop worrying that your kids are going to be "ruined" if they see or hear something with religious origins or connotations. No one is holding a gun to your precious little princes and princesses and forcing them to convert. Yours and their rights are thus respected. Go about your business and leave the rest of us alone. Respect OUR rights. You need to take a deep breath, loosen your sphincter, and stop worrying that your kids are going to be "ruined" if they see or hear something without religious origins or connotations. No one is holding a gun to your precious little princes and princesses and forcing them to deconvert. Yours and their rights are thus respected. Go about your business and leave the rest of us alone. Respect OUR rights. ... Or do these rights only flow in one direction?
	__________________ "The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head."

11th July 2012, 08:41 AM	#50
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,708	Originally Posted by Tenchiken Quick update... unfortunately due to the holiday, we haven't gotten very far yet, but the latest classes have not involved the show (a nice start). We started with an innocent inquiry as to the details of the lessons that day, and so far it looks like the video viewed was directly related to a "vegetables" assignment for some nutritional topic. I have asked for more details, and hope to get things answered properly next week. That sounds like a really weak link to nutrition, unless it was specific to the topic.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

11th July 2012, 08:43 AM	#51
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,708	Originally Posted by Muldur You all need to take deep breaths, losen your sphincters, and stop worrying that your kids are going to be "ruined" if they see or hear something with religious origins or connotations. No one is holding a gun to your precious little princes and princesses and forcing them to convert. Yours and their rights are thus respected. Go about your business and leave the rest of us alone. Respect OUR rights. Nope. religion has no place in public schools, period. Get over it, unless you want us goddess worshiping pagans to have OUR rights as well.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

11th July 2012, 08:59 AM	#52
Careyp74 Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 3,407	Originally Posted by Dancing David That sounds like a really weak link to nutrition, unless it was specific to the topic. Sounds like a really uninformed teacher. Having a topic on nutrition and the importance of vegetables, leading to a screening of VeggieTales. I hope she doesn't show Caligula when they cover the Roman Empire.

11th July 2012, 09:48 AM	#53
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,708	Originally Posted by Careyp74 Sounds like a really uninformed teacher. Having a topic on nutrition and the importance of vegetables, leading to a screening of VeggieTales. I hope she doesn't show Caligula when they cover the Roman Empire. More likely Ben Hur
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

11th July 2012, 10:44 AM	#54
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,702	Originally Posted by Careyp74 Sounds like a really uninformed teacher. Having a topic on nutrition and the importance of vegetables, leading to a screening of VeggieTales. I hope she doesn't show Caligula when they cover the Roman Empire. Well, you have to admit, it would be very informative for the little tykes.
	__________________ As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker

11th July 2012, 11:56 AM	#55
Almo Masterblazer Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 6,406	Originally Posted by Careyp74 They meet an asparagus, and didn't know what he was. We then learn the taxonomic name for asparagus, a little too much for the target age group. That was a bit for the adults. Good children's shows are fun for adults to watch, as well. Like the Kermit News Flash segment on Sesame Street when he was looking for the Old Woman Who Lived In A Shoe. She was a member of the Gray Panthers bowling club. A joke taken from the name of the Black Panthers in a kid's show is definitely aimed at the parents. There were a couple other adult jokes in there, too. Sorry, I know that was off-topic.
	__________________ Almo! My Blog "No society ever collapsed because the poor had too much." — LeftySergeant "It may be that there is no body really at rest, to which the places and motions of others may be referred." –Issac Newton in the Principia Last edited by Almo; 11th July 2012 at 11:57 AM. Reason: Off and On need to start with different letters so they can be used in acronyms.

11th July 2012, 12:28 PM	#56
Careyp74 Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 3,407	Originally Posted by Almo She was a member of the Gray Panthers bowling club. A joke taken from the name of the Black Panthers in a kid's show is definitely aimed at the parents. You never heard of the actual Gray Panthers? They might have taken their name from the Black Panthers, but I don't think Sesame Street would have parodied that group specifically.

15th July 2012, 10:36 PM	#57
Tenchiken New Blood Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 6	Trolls aside, I think things have turned out (thankfully) milder than the initial elements indicated. We did our innocent inquiry (note to the teacher in writing), and the reply from the teacher (also in writing!) seems to indicate unfortunate wording in the note regarding this particular. For the sake of simplicity, here's the transcription: "I just wanted to clarify, we did not watch an episode of VeggiTales. We were learning about food and used the characters to identify different vegetables." While there is an obvious chance that this is backpedaling to avoid flame, or even after another parent complained, I suspect that this is a limited incident. Thankfully, this particular school session (a summer course) is ending this week, so we are instead just planning to keep an eye on the curriculum of her coming schooling. For what it's worth, my kid's interest in the program seems to have quickly waned, so it may be the case of just the single exposure, and limited at that. Unfortunately, my child just doesn't have the communication skills yet to sufficiently determine with any accuracy a "Us vs Them" recounting of the situation. I have had to rely on the notes directly from the teaching staff, and watching my daughter's behavior directly, to try to suss out exactly what actually happened vs external indications. Before the proper schoolyear begins in September, we do have a scheduled meeting with members of the district for an IEP (Individual educational plan, for those not experienced here). I am going to take the various notes in entirety, and at the END of the meeting gently inquire that they just have a look at things. Since the meeting is recorded, including by myself during for a personal copy, this could just be a simple bit of insurance in case future issues arise. Thanks for the level-headed suggestions regarding next steps. I am going to probably stay at an elevated state of attention for a bit, just in case... ---- Trollbait reply follows... I know I shouldn't, but alas I am already "going to hell as an unrepentant sinner".... And for the troll, I will bite for this particular.... If you had a 2nd/3rd grade child, and they came home showing a sudden interest killing animals out of the blue, you would perk up and pay attention. Some folks consider hunting as a child a very normal practice, others consider it horror. The point of this is not about if learning about religion is wrong or right... it's about WHERE they learn it, and the law established around this. I do NOT want my child to learn about christianity via cartoons. Or in a setting portrayed as FACTUAL (note the rules about persons in place of authority) outside of my immediate purview. How many Jewish parents would enjoy learning that their kid was being shown videos with a Nazi flavor.... Yes this is extreme example, but by the same token, were the Crusades, or the Spanish Inquisition any less horrible? It's not a public schools place to make that judgement.
Tenchiken New Blood Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 6

16th July 2012, 05:38 AM	#58
Careyp74 Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 3,407	Originally Posted by Tenchiken "I just wanted to clarify, we did not watch an episode of VeggiTales. We were learning about food and used the characters to identify different vegetables." What was it that started all of this? If they weren't being shown VeggieTales, what made you think that they were?

20th July 2012, 05:07 PM	#59
Tenchiken New Blood Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 6	Originally Posted by Careyp74 What was it that started all of this? If they weren't being shown VeggieTales, what made you think that they were? We get daily written notes from the staff about each day. Initially we had received a note as such stating watched veggietales as one of the things they did... this didn't stand out to my wife but did to me after my kid then started looking for more on Netflix that evening. The note itself was very brief, but that plus the immediate interest of my child prompted this thread etc.
Tenchiken New Blood Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 6

20th July 2012, 11:28 PM	#60
dropzone Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,666	Originally Posted by Tenchiken Ultimately, the reason this caused alarm with us was that my daughter immediately tried to go find more of the show on Netflix. While we closely monitor the stuff she watches, it is disconcerting that she obviously remembered enough to actively seek it out. She is seeking them out because they really are good and fun and funny enough for adults, even atheists. Even the Bible-based ones (and they only deal with the OT, AFAIK) are a little bit religion, quite a bit more "we should all try to get along," and a lot of Larry the Cucumber exasperating Bob the Tomato. No, they don't belong in a public school, but they are also not going to turn your daughter into a crazy fundie. She probably won't notice the religion, but she might learn some Spanish. ETA: No religious thought was expressed in that video. You will not get the religion cooties by viewing it.
	Last edited by dropzone; 20th July 2012 at 11:35 PM.

9th August 2012, 02:18 PM	#61
Miss_Kitt Zombie Horse of Homeopathy Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Lesser Seattle Posts: 3,623	I let my kid watch certain VeggieTales things: the Pirates movie and the whole Larry's Silly Songs collection -- because they're funny and fun. Some friends gave her some other videos, and we had a conversation about the Christian content. I am a big fan of many of the Silly Songs (I wonder if the link in the post above goes to the Song of the Cucumber, with Bob translating?) and thought the pirate movie was a hoot. HOWEVER, the general episodes and most of the videos are always about Christian issues and actually have a bibilical reading as the summation. So that makes them inappropriate for a public school classroom. This is particularly an issue for the younger grades, where kids tend to think that anything the teacher says or presents is TRUE. I raise a lot of eyebrows at our school because when they say the Pledge of Allegiance, neither BG nor I (sometimes I'm still there at flag time) say "under God" during it. We are respectfully silent; we don't make a fuss; but we don't say it. I just tell them that it was added in the 50's during the anti-Communist flutter (McCarthy hearings, etc.) and that I'm a traditionalist. Good luck with the coming school year, MK PS Think about getting those silly songs, at least from the library. They're pretty funny.
	__________________ It's much better to live an honest life than a delusional one -- desertgal Magic thinking is a lead personal floatation device. It looks really reassuring, but it will drag you down--whatthebutlersaw

14th August 2012, 07:24 PM	#62
farnarkle Scholar Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Near Melbourne, Aus. Posts: 58	This thread is interesting for me because here in Australia, religious education is only taught in catholic schools, independent schools, private schools etc. If a state funded school here started using VeggieTales in the classroom, I'm pretty sure that parents would be knocking the doors down and demanding change.

15th August 2012, 05:38 AM	#63
Careyp74 Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 3,407	Originally Posted by farnarkle This thread is interesting for me because here in Australia, religious education is only taught in catholic schools, independent schools, private schools etc. If a state funded school here started using VeggieTales in the classroom, I'm pretty sure that parents would be knocking the doors down and demanding change. Well, as we have learned, that wasn't the case. The only thing I see wrong is unlicensed use of the likenesses of copywrited characters.

15th August 2012, 06:55 PM	#64
farnarkle Scholar Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Near Melbourne, Aus. Posts: 58	Originally Posted by Careyp74 The only thing I see wrong is unlicensed use of the likenesses of copywrited characters. "If you do not cease and desist in your use of the VeggeTales characters and their likenesses, a large carrot with a bat shall visit you in the night."

3rd September 2012, 12:47 AM	#65
Trish Randall Thinker Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 145	although this didn't happen recently When I was in 5th grade, many years ago, I was in a public school that had a tradition of holding a Christmas concert every year. A few Jehovah's Witness families moved into town & complained, and lo, that year, it was switched to a Winter Concert because of the complaints of those couple of families. No kids were pulled out of activities, no families were mocked or mistreated. The school just switched to a non-reigious, Constitutionally appropriate Winter Concert. Sometimes people jut do the right thing. Have to say about Veggie Tales - my sister-in-law who is very churchy, had her kids watch them all. I thought they were awful - but it also reminded me of how Davy & Goliath - a religious animated show in my childhood - convinced me that religion was way more boring than Bugs Bunny & Wylie Coyote & Road Runner.
Trish Randall Thinker Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 145

3rd September 2012, 05:04 AM	#66
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,708	Welcome Trish!
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

3rd September 2012, 09:04 PM	#67
Trish Randall Thinker Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 145	Hi Hi, Thanks for the welcome, dancing David.
Trish Randall Thinker Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 145

3rd September 2012, 09:18 PM	#68
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 20,516	Originally Posted by Careyp74 Fair enough. I for one am not for throwing out the baby with the bath water. But this is a different argument. There are enough specific religious themes in the show to say that it is christian based. I am still not convinced though that the show is an indoctrination. Particularly with the anecdotes in this thread that show that the theme doesn't matter much with kids, as long as I don't see one on Sodom and Gomorrah, eh. It's a religious show. It's creator says so. Part of the confusion is that it was originally a direct-to-DVD series of shows, and they were all on religious themes... specifically, Christian themes. NBC picked the show up and aired some of those episodes but cut out the religious references and made them cut the closing line of every DVD about The Big Guy making all kids special and loving them. I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with them being religious if they stayed with the direct sales approach, but once it's shown on broadcast or cable TV, then I agree with NBC that it needed to be neutralized. And I certainly don't think they belong, in any form, in a public school. Having said that, I do not have any recent history of the production company. It's a pretty long reach to pull a Christian theme out of that Pirates movie. They may have toned down the rhetoric in the hopes of getting a broader distributorship, or even realized that a whole bunch of Chinese and Japanese and Thai people are Buddhists and Taoists and Confucianists and just want to look at the funny little vegetable characters doing goofy little kids things. I had to look them up. I didn't know anything about the series, but had seen the Pirate movie and a few episodes dubbed into Cantonese, but was not aware that there was something called "Veggie Tales". Meh? I don't like the characters because they just don't seem to be at all related to the vegetable they're playing. I mean, first of all, a tomato isn't a vegetable, and secondly, no self-respecting tomato would play straight man to a cucumber! Gimme a break! They're just there as vegetables for some reason.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele Don't you wish someone had slapped baby Hitler really really hard? [i] Dr. Buzzo 02/13 [i]

4th September 2012, 10:13 AM	#69
Ryokan Insert something funny here Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Norway Posts: 8,172	I would not want my children to learn any values from this video.

4th September 2012, 12:09 PM	#70
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia, not that you'll read the "location" field. Posts: 9,922	I remember that episode. The longer version has this pretty good mocking song from the people of Jericho.
	__________________ Latest Blog Posts:Atheism+ More Atheism+ stuff

4th September 2012, 12:23 PM	#71
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Ryokan I would not want my children to learn any values from this video. I would expect not. The moral of that video is something very specifically religious -- that we should trust in God and follow His directions even when they don't make sense to us. It's similar to the message of Lewis's Perelandra.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

4th September 2012, 01:02 PM	#72
Ryokan Insert something funny here Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Norway Posts: 8,172	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ I would expect not. The moral of that video is something very specifically religious -- that we should trust in God and follow His directions even when they don't make sense to us. And even if it means killing and murdering. Just trust God and do what he tells you. Yes, I know, I did get the message. It was quite clear.

2nd October 2012, 05:53 PM	#73
HotNostril Student Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 42	Originally Posted by Madalch My kids were shown an episode of those while visiting a friend. One of the vegetables developed a tummy-ache after eating too much salsa. Hopefully, my discussion of how this would be cannibalism has made my kids sufficiently creeped out by VeggieTales that I won't have to worry about indoctrination. That was brilliant! Lol
HotNostril Student Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 42

2nd October 2012, 07:47 PM	#74
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,932	Originally Posted by Tenchiken Trolls aside, I think things have turned out (thankfully) milder than the initial elements indicated. We did our innocent inquiry (note to the teacher in writing), and the reply from the teacher (also in writing!) seems to indicate unfortunate wording in the note regarding this particular. For the sake of simplicity, here's the transcription: "I just wanted to clarify, we did not watch an episode of VeggiTales. We were learning about food and used the characters to identify different vegetables." While there is an obvious chance that this is backpedaling to avoid flame, or even after another parent complained, I suspect that this is a limited incident. Thankfully, this particular school session (a summer course) is ending this week, so we are instead just planning to keep an eye on the curriculum of her coming schooling. For what it's worth, my kid's interest in the program seems to have quickly waned, so it may be the case of just the single exposure, and limited at that. Unfortunately, my child just doesn't have the communication skills yet to sufficiently determine with any accuracy a "Us vs Them" recounting of the situation. I have had to rely on the notes directly from the teaching staff, and watching my daughter's behavior directly, to try to suss out exactly what actually happened vs external indications. Before the proper schoolyear begins in September, we do have a scheduled meeting with members of the district for an IEP (Individual educational plan, for those not experienced here). I am going to take the various notes in entirety, and at the END of the meeting gently inquire that they just have a look at things. Since the meeting is recorded, including by myself during for a personal copy, this could just be a simple bit of insurance in case future issues arise. Thanks for the level-headed suggestions regarding next steps. I am going to probably stay at an elevated state of attention for a bit, just in case... ---- Trollbait reply follows... I know I shouldn't, but alas I am already "going to hell as an unrepentant sinner".... And for the troll, I will bite for this particular.... If you had a 2nd/3rd grade child, and they came home showing a sudden interest killing animals out of the blue, you would perk up and pay attention. Some folks consider hunting as a child a very normal practice, others consider it horror. The point of this is not about if learning about religion is wrong or right... it's about WHERE they learn it, and the law established around this. I do NOT want my child to learn about christianity via cartoons. Or in a setting portrayed as FACTUAL (note the rules about persons in place of authority) outside of my immediate purview. How many Jewish parents would enjoy learning that their kid was being shown videos with a Nazi flavor.... Yes this is extreme example, but by the same token, were the Crusades, or the Spanish Inquisition any less horrible? It's not a public schools place to make that judgement. Pretty sure IEP is Fed requirement and pretty much universal in name and form in the US..................
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,932	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

2nd October 2012, 07:53 PM	#75
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,932	Originally Posted by HotNostril That was brilliant! Lol Indeed it was! We have a good amount of this around these parts........
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,932	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!