The future of the ''truth'' movement

[dafydd]

Will the truth movement die out when the handful of truthers pop their clogs? Their nonsense will remain on the net so is it possible that future half-literate teenagers in their parents basements will be drawn into it? Will it die out or become an even smaller cult than it is now?

[LSSBB]

Originally Posted by dafydd

Will the truth movement die out when the handful of truthers pop their clogs? Their nonsense will remain on the net so is it possible that future half-literate teenagers in their parents basements will be drawn into it? Will it die out or become an even smaller cult than it is now?

Freddie is the future of the Truth movement, and the future is now.

[Bell]

Originally Posted by dafydd

Will the truth movement die out when the handful of truthers pop their clogs? Their nonsense will remain on the net so is it possible that future half-literate teenagers in their parents basements will be drawn into it? Will it die out or become an even smaller cult than it is now?

No.

Just like Jebus, Bigfoot, flying saucers, the JFK assassination conspiracy, the Apollo hoax, the Holohoax, homeopathy, psychics and what (woo) have you, despite the numerous and mountainous evidence against them, people continue to believe in this kind of bull...

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by Bell

No.

Just like Jebus, Bigfoot, flying saucers, the JFK assassination conspiracy, the Apollo hoax, the Holohoax, homeopathy, psychics and what (woo) have you, despite the numerous and mountainous evidence against them, people continue to believe in this kind of bull...

Sadly, I believe that you are right.

[Dave Rogers]

I thought this was one of those "World's shortest book" jokes.

Dave

[DGM]

The future of the ''truth'' movement

Read this sub-forum. You're looking at it.

This is as good as it's ever going to get.

[1337m4n]

The future of the "truth" movement is a bunch of nobodies sitting in their basements whining on internet forums about things they *should* do but never actually *will*.

In other words, what DGM said.

[Dave Rogers]

Actually, having surveyed the threads currently active in the sub-forum, it's a bit difficult to tell the future of the truth movement from the past of the truth movement. This stuff was already dated when I joined five years ago.

Dave

[Bell]

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

Actually, having surveyed the threads currently active in the sub-forum, it's a bit difficult to tell the future of the truth movement from the past of the truth movement. This stuff was already dated when I joined five years ago.

Dave

Nominated

[MileHighMadness]

When David Ray Griffin writes his last book on 9/11 truth, then you can consider the movement dead.

BTW...anyone know just how many books Griffin has written on 9/11, and how much money he has made off those books?

[Mark F]

Originally Posted by dafydd

Will the truth movement die out when the handful of truthers pop their clogs? Their nonsense will remain on the net so is it possible that future half-literate teenagers in their parents basements will be drawn into it? Will it die out or become an even smaller cult than it is now?

Belief in conspiracy theories is very powerful to the believer, akin to religious belief. For many, I suspect it is what sustains them, gives them a sense of value and purpose in an otherwise shallow and meaningless existence. And like religion, it ain't goin' anywhere anytime soon.

[Dcdrac]

They wake up look at all the books and dvds they bought and realise they have been monumentally ripped off?

[cjnewson88]

Thanks to the internet, conspiracy theories like 9/11 will remain for as long as humans do. However, also thanks to the internet (and it's golden ability to make peoples stupidity available to the world), I predict the conspiracy numbers to be small and the duration of their beliefs to be brief.

Allow me to explain. 14 year old bobby gets on the internet, sees a link about this '9/11' event he knows little about. He watches Loose Change, innocently and naively believing it without question as young people do, and begins following up/spreading this belief. A few months down the track, as his parents are calling him silly and people are challenging him, he digs deeper into 9/11 conspiracies and eventually comes across the vast number of extreme 9/11 theories; vicsims, no planers, nwo, reptilian shape shifters, 'everything was fake'er's, and, thanks to these extreme and far fetched theories, begins to see how flawed it all is, and starts down the road of the debunking material.

[dafydd]

I'd be interested in our resident truthers opinions too.

[Robrob]

Originally Posted by cjnewson88

Thanks to the internet, conspiracy theories like 9/11 will remain for as long as humans do. However, also thanks to the internet (and it's golden ability to make peoples stupidity available to the world), I predict the conspiracy numbers to be small and the duration of their beliefs to be brief.

Sadly I feel it will be the opposite. With the internet, no myth ever dies a true death. At least with books you might limit their publication through simple economics (too stupid = no profit to print). A post on the internet can outlive the poster. For every book such as the Protocols of Zion there are a dozen or more debunking it. Internet myths are like hydra, debunk one and another (or the same) head grows in its place.

[rjh01]

I think they will always be around. New ones will be invented. However their power and influence will be very weak. For example there is going to be a presidential election in the USA this year. Try to find one of the two (or three) major candidates even mentioning conspiracy theories. That is how weak they are now.

[Scott Sommers]

There will continue to be hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of USA passport holders who will endorse statements about a 9/11 Truth. However, the 9/11 TM has already been absorbed into a more general New World Order conspiracy. This group is not very vocal and is not concerned with the idea that the government role in 9/11 needs to be 'proved'. They are busy creating their fantasy ideas about the NWO. This new 9/11 TM is largely disconnected with the movement that has attracted the JREF for so many years. It is more connected to right-wing Christian politics than AE9/11T. As a result, figures like Dick Gage and DRG are not important and perhaps even unknown to its supporters.

[ozeco41]

Originally Posted by dafydd

I'd be interested in our resident truthers opinions too.

I prefer to separate 'trolls' from 'truthers'.

And, based on their current postings here, I doubt that we have any truthers posting.

If I drop the measuring bar a little I would allow for two 'truthers' both of whom still spend more time trolling that searching for truth.

Bottom line is that even those two know that the truther case is lost - at least on the 'big four/five' technical claims. There has been no coherent prima facie hypothesis to support any of the truther big technical claims. Ten years on.

How can they claim credibility as truthers?

[Robrob]

Originally Posted by ozeco41

I prefer to separate 'trolls' from 'truthers'.

And, based on their current postings here, I doubt that we have any truthers posting.

If I drop the measuring bar a little I would allow for two 'truthers' both of whom still spend more time trolling that searching for truth.

I suspect you are correct. I've noticed they post many times more obviously inaccurate but antagonizing claims as they do things they can try and defend.

[BenjaminTR]

I have been wondering about this very topic, the future of the truth movement. I only recently became interested in 9/11 conspiracy theories, so I missed the height of 9/11 Truth activity. Though I suspect involvement is down, I wanted to see what active 9/11 truth groups were up to. To find out, some friends and I recently attended a film screening by a 9/11 Truth group. Given how disorganized and sad the truther event was, and how low quality the truthers on JREF are, I was wondering if there is much of a future to the truth movement at all.

Anyway, the event was a film screening, so I expected a somewhat interesting though misleading conspiracy film at least as well-made and coherent as "Loose Change". My expectations were not met. This "film" was actually a series of almost random clips plagiarized from documentaries and Youtube videos. The guy who put the clips together runs the 9/11 group sponsoring the event. He said beforehand, during a disorganized rant that was apparently supposed to be a group meeting, that he made the video to combat the "mind-control" orchestrated by the government-censored corporate media. He also apparently has a problem with the Cassini space probe launch, though I did not bother to ask why and he did not say why. (Has anyone heard of Cassini conspiracies?)

Below is a description of the video clips he showed, at least the ones shown before we left. The clips he showed were:

1. A music video called "Obamanation" by British rapper Lowkey, who thinks America is pretty evil.

2. A video of a Chilean exile speaking about the American-backed coup that occurred on September 11, 1973. He drew some parallels to September 11, 2001 to illustrate the effect the coup had on Chilean people. As far as I can tell, this film has nothing to do with 9/11 "truth". It appears to be an attempt to urge everyone to remember, and learn from, the horrors of both September 11th events.

3. A clip of Mike Gravel saying that we need a citizen's investigation of 9/11, because any government investigation would be another cover-up.

4. Clips of a Star Trek episode intercut with videos of 9/11, Alex Jones with a bullhorn, and other stuff. Also, the alien from the episode was modified to be the floating letters "NWO".

5. A Youtube video presenting "the official government story" of 9/11 in a way to try as hard as possible to make it look stupid. ("Hani Hanjour couldn't even successfully stand next to a plane, yet he made a turn and hit the Pentagon!" "Bin Laden was in a cave." "Planned from caves." "They were in caves!" "People in caves beat the best military in the world!" "Cavemen did it!" "CAVES!!!!!")

6. A clip about JFK and how he was the most progressive, generous, peace-loving hero-messiah ever to walk the Earth. He would have ended poverty, the cold war, and the existence of nuclear weapons (this sentence is not exaggerating). The clip went on to show the head shot from the Zapruder film about 800,000 times (exaggeration). "Back and to the left."

7. A video about Federal Reserve conspiracies, with the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commision and the Bilderbergers thrown in for good measure. This video referred to global financiers as "Masters of the Universe".

8. A video arguing that Orson Welles's "War of the Worlds" broadcast of 1939 was an NWO experiment in mass terror. (This might have been part of the Federal Reserve clip; it was hard to keep track of transitions.)

Once the narrator made the Orson Welles claim, we could not take any more. We dediced to leave.

Also, before the "movie" the group leader said that he included some stuff about moon landing conspiracy theories, saying there was very strong evidence that it was a hoax, though to be fair, he said his truther friends were upset that he included the moon landing stuff. We left before it got to that part. We also missed what I am sure was some excellent, organized, fact-based discussion that was planned for the end of the event.

Does anyone know if this is par for the course in the "Truth" movement? Or is this just a particularly inept group?

[Voodoosix]

im wondering if the troothers inadvertently did some good....

maybe terrorists will be demotivated from executing bombings and such since they wont be able to take credit for their deeds.

"we were going to bomb a busy marketplace but those stupid Americans will just blame Obama for it, so we said F' it and went and got shawarma instead."

[ozeco41]

Originally Posted by Robrob

I suspect you are correct. I've noticed they post many times more obviously inaccurate but antagonizing claims as they do things they can try and defend.

I even take the distinction further - because some persons may irritate and antagonise as a result of their lack of comprehension of the topic. So they could be genuine truthers limited by their own levels of comprehension, knowledge and reasoning skills. (Or lack thereof to be precise)

And, to honour the spirit of the MA, it is better to identify 'trolling behaviour' or 'thruther behaviour' rather than name the person as a 'troll' or 'truther'. But that is a separate though related issue.

[Mark F]

Originally Posted by BenjaminTR

Does anyone know if this is par for the course in the "Truth" movement? Or is this just a particularly inept group?

You pretty much summed it up.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by Mark F

You pretty much summed it up.

Inept. The twoofers would have trouble with proving that Marylin Monroe was a woman.

[njslim]

Above Top Secret shut down their 9/11 forum because it was attracting every truther
nut to come by and spam an troll every thread with their nonsense

Got to point that some of the more whacked out truthers would dig up threads from years ago to add their inane comments

What happened was that there was a hard core group of truthers who would parrot the
same crap (sound familiar?) endlessly no matter how often were proved wrong.....

Site owners apparently got fed up from the volume of crap which was clogging asite.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by njslim

Site owners apparently got fed up from the volume of crap which was clogging asite.

It doesn't clog up this site. Could it be that there are only a handful of twoofers left?

[Redwood]

Conspiracists are usually passive-aggressive. I was banned from the "FreeRepublic" website for suggesting ways for Birthers to search for real evidence which they could do on their own.

I've suggested to Truthers that they pitch their ideas to the insurance companies that paid 9-11 claims. Insurance companies pay large bounties to informants in false claims. Wouldn't every Truther love to see Larry Silverstein get sued by the insurers? If Truthers can't convince those who would financially benefit from them being right, who are they going to convince?

[cjnewson88]

Originally Posted by dafydd

It doesn't clog up this site. Could it be that there are only a handful of twoofers left?

No, it's because most of the remaining truthers left who spend their lives on the internet avoid JREF like it's the devils pit of despair. Every time I invite a truther from youtube to challenge their 'facts' against people who know what they're talking about here on JREF, they always respond along the lines of 'I'd rather swallow knives than visit that nwo cult following propaganda sewer of lies and filth', and so naturally, most avoid it. The ones that do bare it, are usually hit and runs, or persistent regurgitators of rhetoric that will recycle the same material like its brand new no matter how many times its been dismantled and debunked in the past.

[Axiom_Blade]

Originally Posted by BenjaminTR

8. A video arguing that Orson Welles's "War of the Worlds" broadcast of 1939 was an NWO experiment in mass terror. (This might have been part of the Federal Reserve clip; it was hard to keep track of transitions.)

I'm much more fond of the theory that the "War of the Worlds" broadcast was real, and was only claimed to be a hoax later as a cover-up. We are actually living under Martian rule right now. I've only encountered this in sci-fi, I haven't seen this theory out in the wild.

I think that the more activisty elements of 9-11 Truth (such as they were) has died out as the memory of 9-11 has waned. There'll still be diehard truthers, just as there are diehard JFK conspiracists. But I don't think that they're drawing in very many new people at this point.

[Clayton Moore]

It's likely a groundswell realization that neocons are warmongers and the enemy of FREEDOM in the USA and world wide will bring an investigation of their past activities, their backers and those who supported them with silence. A little digging and the obvious will become the truth of 9/11.

Congress will hold hearings and there will be hell to pay.

[cjnewson88]

Wasn't that what the truther cling-ons on the 99% movement tried to do? I have a faint memory of a knock off 'occupy building 7' fail rally occurring.. Couldn't even turn a pissed off mob on your side..

Sorry Clayton, your fantasy will never happen outside of your mind or the movie screen.

[BenjaminTR]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

It's likely a groundswell realization that neocons are warmongers and the enemy of FREEDOM in the USA and world wide will bring an investigation of their past activities, their backers and those who supported them with silence. A little digging and the obvious will become the truth of 9/11.

Congress will hold hearings and there will be hell to pay.

Do you have any evidence that what you claim here is true, evidence other than the fact that you believe 9/11 was an inside job and that eventually "the truth will out"? While I admit it is not logically or metaphysically impossible that there will be new congressional hearings about 9/11, it seems that 9/11 Truth is not even a thriving fringe movement, let alone a movement about to break into the mainstream.

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by BenjaminTR

... To find out, some friends and I recently attended a film screening by a 9/11 Truth group.

Have you avoided the name and location of that group on purpose?

Originally Posted by BenjaminTR

Given how disorganized and sad the truther event was, ...

How many attended? How did you learn of it? Were the visitors mostly believers already?

Originally Posted by BenjaminTR

...
2. A video of a Chilean exile speaking about the American-backed coup that occurred on September 11, 1973. He drew some parallels to September 11, 2001 to illustrate the effect the coup had on Chilean people. As far as I can tell, this film has nothing to do with 9/11 "truth". It appears to be an attempt to urge everyone to remember, and learn from, the horrors of both September 11th events.
...

Little-known trivia: When Allende was elected in 1970, the commander-in-chief of the Chilean Army, general Rene Schneider, was determined to not intervene, and it was decided by other generals and the CIA that he must go. He was killed in short order during a failed kidnapping by a group financed and supplied with weapons by the CIA, apparently on orders from Henry Kissinger. On 9/10/2001, relatives of general Schneider sued Kissinger for murder at a New York court. Kissinger later was Bush's initial pick to head the 9/11 Commission, iirc. So there are your links between the Chilean coup of 1973 and 9/11.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by BenjaminTR

I have been wondering about this very topic, the future of the truth movement. I only recently became interested in 9/11 conspiracy theories, so I missed the height of 9/11 Truth activity. Though I suspect involvement is down, I wanted to see what active 9/11 truth groups were up to. To find out, some friends and I recently attended a film screening by a 9/11 Truth group. Given how disorganized and sad the truther event was, and how low quality the truthers on JREF are, I was wondering if there is much of a future to the truth movement at all.

Anyway, the event was a film screening, so I expected a somewhat interesting though misleading conspiracy film at least as well-made and coherent as "Loose Change". My expectations were not met. This "film" was actually a series of almost random clips plagiarized from documentaries and Youtube videos. The guy who put the clips together runs the 9/11 group sponsoring the event. He said beforehand, during a disorganized rant that was apparently supposed to be a group meeting, that he made the video to combat the "mind-control" orchestrated by the government-censored corporate media. He also apparently has a problem with the Cassini space probe launch, though I did not bother to ask why and he did not say why. (Has anyone heard of Cassini conspiracies?)

Below is a description of the video clips he showed, at least the ones shown before we left. The clips he showed were:

1. A music video called "Obamanation" by British rapper Lowkey, who thinks America is pretty evil.

2. A video of a Chilean exile speaking about the American-backed coup that occurred on September 11, 1973. He drew some parallels to September 11, 2001 to illustrate the effect the coup had on Chilean people. As far as I can tell, this film has nothing to do with 9/11 "truth". It appears to be an attempt to urge everyone to remember, and learn from, the horrors of both September 11th events.

3. A clip of Mike Gravel saying that we need a citizen's investigation of 9/11, because any government investigation would be another cover-up.

4. Clips of a Star Trek episode intercut with videos of 9/11, Alex Jones with a bullhorn, and other stuff. Also, the alien from the episode was modified to be the floating letters "NWO".

5. A Youtube video presenting "the official government story" of 9/11 in a way to try as hard as possible to make it look stupid. ("Hani Hanjour couldn't even successfully stand next to a plane, yet he made a turn and hit the Pentagon!" "Bin Laden was in a cave." "Planned from caves." "They were in caves!" "People in caves beat the best military in the world!" "Cavemen did it!" "CAVES!!!!!")

6. A clip about JFK and how he was the most progressive, generous, peace-loving hero-messiah ever to walk the Earth. He would have ended poverty, the cold war, and the existence of nuclear weapons (this sentence is not exaggerating). The clip went on to show the head shot from the Zapruder film about 800,000 times (exaggeration). "Back and to the left."

7. A video about Federal Reserve conspiracies, with the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commision and the Bilderbergers thrown in for good measure. This video referred to global financiers as "Masters of the Universe".

8. A video arguing that Orson Welles's "War of the Worlds" broadcast of 1939 was an NWO experiment in mass terror. (This might have been part of the Federal Reserve clip; it was hard to keep track of transitions.)

Once the narrator made the Orson Welles claim, we could not take any more. We dediced to leave.

Also, before the "movie" the group leader said that he included some stuff about moon landing conspiracy theories, saying there was very strong evidence that it was a hoax, though to be fair, he said his truther friends were upset that he included the moon landing stuff. We left before it got to that part. We also missed what I am sure was some excellent, organized, fact-based discussion that was planned for the end of the event.

Does anyone know if this is par for the course in the "Truth" movement? Or is this just a particularly inept group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project...erican_Century

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Read about the neocons declaration for the need for a new Pearl Harbor as in 9/11 and the resulting world wide participation by the USA in democracy building military actions/conflicts/wars.

Like I said the neocons are the key to 9/11.

[cjnewson88]

should be "project for a slightly different american century than the one we started with"..

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Redwood

Conspiracists are usually passive-aggressive. I was banned from the "FreeRepublic" website for suggesting ways for Birthers to search for real evidence which they could do on their own.

I've suggested to Truthers that they pitch their ideas to the insurance companies that paid 9-11 claims. Insurance companies pay large bounties to informants in false claims. Wouldn't every Truther love to see Larry Silverstein get sued by the insurers? If Truthers can't convince those who would financially benefit from them being right, who are they going to convince?

The money paid out for 9/11 was a spit in the bucket.

One of the companies that had to pay Lucky Larry.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-w...earns-allianz/
Insurer Allianz sees profit rise 23 percent

Quote:

August 3, 2012 03:58 AM EST | AP

FRANKFURT, Germany — German insurance and asset management company Allianz SE says net profit rose 23 percent in the second quarter as the company's life insurance business did well.

Quote:

The company, which is based in Munich, reaffirmed its outlook for operating profit of (EURO)8.2 billion for the year, plus or minus (EURO)500 million.

[SezMe]

Originally Posted by Bell

No.

Just like Jebus, Bigfoot, flying saucers, the JFK assassination conspiracy, the Apollo hoax, the Holohoax, homeopathy, psychics and what (woo) have you, despite the numerous and mountainous evidence against them, people continue to believe in this kind of bull...

My thoughts exactly except Bell said it better than I would have.

[beachnut]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project...erican_Century

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Read about the neocons declaration for the need for a new Pearl Harbor as in 9/11 and the resulting world wide participation by the USA in democracy building military actions/conflicts/wars.

Like I said the neocons are the key to 9/11.

Wow, wiki, where anyone can write anything. wow! A so called encyclopedia which gives opinions instead of facts - needs correcting. Good luck - your source for facts is wiki, and you can't get it right. You failed to understand PNAC, not news you make up lies by misquoting your own source you think support what you think.

You don't comprehend the written language of English.

Quote:

"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event––like a new Pearl Harbor"

PNAC states the change in the military structure would be slow unless there was a catalyzing event.
In the case of 911 I have to argue the military was already preparing for the kind of tactics required to eliminate terrorists camps and destroying threats like UBL. 911 may have changed the political will, but the military was planning to handle threats created by terrorists.

PNAC did not say they needed a new Pearl Harbor, they said what they said. People like you twist words to suit your delusional claims. You deny there was a Flight 77, you like lies about 911. No wonder you spread lies like this.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Read about the neocons declaration for the need for a new Pearl Harbor

You spread lies, and ignore UBL was the key to 911, and he promised in the 90s to do it; kill Americans including women and children. Is UBL your hero? Why do you apologize for him by blaming his terrorist friends' acts on NEOCONs? There is no logic or evidence used to form your fantasy claims.

[Quinn]

I predict that as time goes on and the memory of 9/11 becomes more distant, truthers will increasingly be thought of in the most emasculating and infuriating (to them) terms: wacky and eccentric, but harmless and certainly ineffectual; worthy of a pat on the head and a "that's nice, now run along," just like modern-day moon hoaxers. And that's by the people who are even aware of their existence to begin with, which will be a continually shrinking number.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by beachnut

Wow, wiki, where anyone can write anything. wow! A so called encyclopedia which gives opinions instead of facts - needs correcting. Good luck - your source for facts is wiki, and you can't get it right. You failed to understand PNAC, not news you make up lies by misquoting your own source you think support what you think.

You don't comprehend the written language of English.



PNAC states the change in the military structure would be slow unless there was a catalyzing event.
In the case of 911 I have to argue the military was already preparing for the kind of tactics required to eliminate terrorists camps and destroying threats like UBL. 911 may have changed the political will, but the military was planning to handle threats created by terrorists.

PNAC did not say they needed a new Pearl Harbor, they said what they said. People like you twist words to suit your delusional claims. You deny there was a Flight 77, you like lies about 911. No wonder you spread lies like this.



You spread lies, and ignore UBL was the key to 911, and he promised in the 90s to do it; kill Americans including women and children. Is UBL your hero? Why do you apologize for him by blaming his terrorist friends' acts on NEOCONs? There is no logic or evidence used to form your fantasy claims.

I spread lies? What politicians have been elected or are running on a platform that advocates or even mentions the democracy building? The democracy building that has killed and maimed many tens of thousands of our precious servicemen and destroyed the lives of their loved ones? Let alone the millions we have damaged as result of neocon democracy building.

The neocon's judgement day will come. Hopefully very soon.