UFO/Alien Dream, could Physics allow for this Possibility? - Page 2

dafydd · 14th August 2012, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by jaydeehess

I'm curious

if the aliens have condensed all matter space and time to this singularity' and waiting in a space craft then since there no longer is a 'where' other than the singularity, ummmm,,, where is that space craft?

Squeezed into a very small space.

TjW · 14th August 2012, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by jaydeehess

I'm curious

if the aliens have condensed all matter space and time to this singularity' and waiting in a space craft then since there no longer is a 'where' other than the singularity, ummmm,,, where is that space craft?

Yes. Where is that spacecraft. And Who is on First.

gabeygoat · 14th August 2012, 09:26 PM

"Pocket of Specially Engineered Sub-Space"

dafydd · 15th August 2012, 03:06 AM

Originally Posted by gabeygoat

"Pocket of Specially Engineered Sub-Space"

I've got a cupboard full of those.

Kid Eager · 15th August 2012, 03:23 AM

Originally Posted by gabeygoat

"Pocket of Specially Engineered Sub-Space"

it's about time there was some truth in marketing - all this talk about "specially engineered subspace" is just advertising fluff.

Face it - if everybody's sub-space is specially engineered, they're all ordinary standard engineering. Your subspace pocket is nothing special, so just get on with life and keep up the payments...

dafydd · 15th August 2012, 03:53 AM

I want first quality space, none of this substandard stuff.

Correa Neto · 15th August 2012, 03:58 AM

Meh. Just fire the Wave Motion Gun and turn the aliens in to subatomic dust.

mikeyx · 15th August 2012, 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by JohnG

I found the narrative both good and original...in a Samuel Johnson* sort of way.

I have a couple of questions though; if the aliens are powerful enough to do all that stuff, why would they want or need to recreate the universe in the first place?

And where exactly is "the center of the universe"?

*Well, it's usually attributed to him, anyway.

If it were a sci fi novel, I'd read it. Nice weird and wild premise.

aggle-rithm · 15th August 2012, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by JohnG

I have a couple of questions though; if the aliens are powerful enough to do all that stuff, why would they want or need to recreate the universe in the first place?

They did this on Fringe last year. The idea there was to create a universe where the laws of physics could be re-written to serve some nefarious end.

Kind of a stupid plan, since the slightest fiddling with the laws of physics would cause a catastrophic existence failure.

Quote:

And where exactly is "the center of the universe"?

You're standing on it...RIGHT NOW.

ufology · 17th August 2012, 03:12 PM

Subspace is a sci-fi plot device. I don't know of any actual physics that suggests it's plausible in the sense that it is used in Sci-fi.

Akhenaten · 17th August 2012, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by ufology

Subspace is a sci-fi plot device. I don't know of any actual physics that suggests it's plausible in the sense that it is used in Sci-fi.

Who made the decision that plausibililty was to be decided on the basis of your knowledge of physics?

Aepervius · 18th August 2012, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Correa Neto

Nope. Too many plot holes.

Worse tha the worse Enterprise episode.

I disagree at last the op does not have a time travel plot.

from A (Best) to F (worst) I rate it as E- with star trek time travel being F+

Cantab · 18th August 2012, 12:46 AM

If you write it, I'd read it. But I do have a few questions:

How long has this data-wave supposedly been traveling for? The universe is a big place. Even at the speed of light, it would take billions of years to cross, no?

As others have asked, how do the spacecraft survive the destruction of the current universe and the creation of the new one? Is sub-space some magical place outside of the current universe that won't be affected by its destruction? And how do the survivors leave sub-space and emerge into the new universe?

If the spacecraft are riding on/ahead of the shockwave of the sub-space explosion, they must be traveling very very fast. How are they collecting samples at that speed? Even the Enterprise drops out of warp when it encounters something worth investigating. If they're traveling at a speed more realistic for the task set out for them, the alien race that sent them could/would be extinct before the job was done.

I'm assuming there are many spacecraft going off in every direction once your sub-space explosion is detonated. Although they would presumably start fairly close to each other, in no time at all they'll be millions of kilometers apart, with that distance growing rapidly. How do you account for all the potential collectible samples that will fall through the net as none of the spacecraft flies within even a few billion kilometers of them (entire galaxies will be missed)?

Why would the aliens do this instead of, say, picking an uninhabited galaxy and using its stars to manufacture elements as required using some super-advanced technology to speed-up or manage the rate of fusion to overcome the problem of scarcity. It's your story, but to me, the technology to manage element production in stars sounds more attainable than the technology to drive sub-space data-waves, survivable sub-space pockets, space-ships that can collect data and samples of all potential intelligent species in the universe, or universe collapse / re-expansion. But what do I know? I don't even know what sub-space is.

asydhouse · 18th August 2012, 03:14 AM

Twenty years ago Stephen Baxter wrote a series of fantastically good sf books about the dark matter birds converting all the stars from the inside into stuff they needed for fuel or something.... the OP needs to read the entire oeuvre of Baxter and then return humbly to acknowledge that he, like most of us, should just shut up and read the works of the many fine and skilled and knowledgeable sf authors at work today at the cutting edge of scientific knowledge/hypotheses..... also, read Greg Egan and realise your own imagination is impoverished compared to the mere suggestions that real science has opened to these brilliant practitioners of truly creative writing.... stuff that makes the mundane scams of paranormalists look like the paltry dreams of ignorant dullards that they are.

Read sf! Not only whacky ideas, but good stories and engaging characters, two ingredients not to be found in the Mind Body Spirit section of the bookshop!

JohnG · 18th August 2012, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by asydhouse

Twenty years ago Stephen Baxter wrote a series of fantastically good sf books about the dark matter birds converting all the stars from the inside into stuff they needed for fuel or something.... the OP needs to read the entire oeuvre of Baxter and then return humbly to acknowledge that he, like most of us, should just shut up and read the works of the many fine and skilled and knowledgeable sf authors at work today at the cutting edge of scientific knowledge/hypotheses..... also, read Greg Egan and realise your own imagination is impoverished compared to the mere suggestions that real science has opened to these brilliant practitioners of truly creative writing.... stuff that makes the mundane scams of paranormalists look like the paltry dreams of ignorant dullards that they are.

Read sf! Not only whacky ideas, but good stories and engaging characters, two ingredients not to be found in the Mind Body Spirit section of the bookshop!

~~Amen~~ Ahem

Originally Posted by JohnG

I think the best use of I Am Who I Am's time would be spent reading some Clarke, Asimov and Baxter...and some Hawking, too while he's at it.

I'm afraid we may have offended, embarrassed or scared I Am Who I Am away and if so, I'm sincerely sorry.

dafydd · 18th August 2012, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by JohnG

~~Amen~~ Ahem

I'm afraid we may have offended, embarrassed or scared I Am Who I Am away and if so, I'm sincerely sorry.

I wish him/her the best of luck with the writing career.

asydhouse · 19th August 2012, 02:13 AM

Originally Posted by JohnG

I'm afraid we may have offended, embarrassed or scared I Am Who I Am away and if so, I'm sincerely sorry.

Me too, as he seemed like a light-hearted sort who could have been turned into a happy reader of sf, and maybe find the sf fan community more to his liking than the (paradoxically?)(certainly ironically!) more mundane life-of-the-imagination offered by the paranormal/new age mobs.... we've got a World SF Convention coming up in London around this time of year in 2014! The original and for a long time only refuge of nerds, until home computing etc came along!

14th August 2012, 06:17 PM	#41
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,443	Originally Posted by jaydeehess I'm curious if the aliens have condensed all matter space and time to this singularity' and waiting in a space craft then since there no longer is a 'where' other than the singularity, ummmm,,, where is that space craft? Squeezed into a very small space.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

14th August 2012, 09:19 PM	#42
TjW Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: up in the air Posts: 9,969	Originally Posted by jaydeehess I'm curious if the aliens have condensed all matter space and time to this singularity' and waiting in a space craft then since there no longer is a 'where' other than the singularity, ummmm,,, where is that space craft? Yes. Where is that spacecraft. And Who is on First.
	__________________ TjW People like TjW -- Kelly

15th August 2012, 03:06 AM	#44
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,443	Originally Posted by gabeygoat "Pocket of Specially Engineered Sub-Space" I've got a cupboard full of those.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

15th August 2012, 03:23 AM	#45
Kid Eager Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 3,470	Originally Posted by gabeygoat "Pocket of Specially Engineered Sub-Space" it's about time there was some truth in marketing - all this talk about "specially engineered subspace" is just advertising fluff. Face it - if everybody's sub-space is specially engineered, they're all ordinary standard engineering. Your subspace pocket is nothing special, so just get on with life and keep up the payments...
	__________________ What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....

15th August 2012, 03:53 AM	#46
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,443	I want first quality space, none of this substandard stuff.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

14th August 2012, 09:26 PM	#43
gabeygoat Muse Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hard Corvallis, Oregon Posts: 667	"Pocket of Specially Engineered Sub-Space"

15th August 2012, 03:58 AM	#47
Correa Neto Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Hunting rocks somewhere in Brazil Posts: 7,168	Meh. Just fire the Wave Motion Gun and turn the aliens in to subatomic dust.
	__________________ Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me: Together we can find the cure Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too…

15th August 2012, 04:57 AM	#48
mikeyx Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 3,570	Originally Posted by JohnG I found the narrative both good and original...in a Samuel Johnson* sort of way. I have a couple of questions though; if the aliens are powerful enough to do all that stuff, why would they want or need to recreate the universe in the first place? And where exactly is "the center of the universe"? *Well, it's usually attributed to him, anyway. If it were a sci fi novel, I'd read it. Nice weird and wild premise.
mikeyx Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 3,570

15th August 2012, 05:21 AM	#49
aggle-rithm Ardent Formulist Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14,149	Originally Posted by JohnG I have a couple of questions though; if the aliens are powerful enough to do all that stuff, why would they want or need to recreate the universe in the first place? They did this on Fringe last year. The idea there was to create a universe where the laws of physics could be re-written to serve some nefarious end. Kind of a stupid plan, since the slightest fiddling with the laws of physics would cause a catastrophic existence failure. Quote: And where exactly is "the center of the universe"? You're standing on it...RIGHT NOW.
	__________________ To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.

17th August 2012, 03:12 PM	#50
ufology Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Calgary Canada Posts: 2,561	Subspace is a sci-fi plot device. I don't know of any actual physics that suggests it's plausible in the sense that it is used in Sci-fi.
	__________________ USI Calgary

17th August 2012, 10:02 PM	#51
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,634	Originally Posted by ufology Subspace is a sci-fi plot device. I don't know of any actual physics that suggests it's plausible in the sense that it is used in Sci-fi. Who made the decision that plausibililty was to be decided on the basis of your knowledge of physics?
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum

18th August 2012, 12:05 AM	#52
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,732	Originally Posted by Correa Neto Nope. Too many plot holes. Worse tha the worse Enterprise episode. I disagree at last the op does not have a time travel plot. from A (Best) to F (worst) I rate it as E- with star trek time travel being F+
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

18th August 2012, 12:46 AM	#53
Cantab Scholar Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 55	If you write it, I'd read it. But I do have a few questions: How long has this data-wave supposedly been traveling for? The universe is a big place. Even at the speed of light, it would take billions of years to cross, no? As others have asked, how do the spacecraft survive the destruction of the current universe and the creation of the new one? Is sub-space some magical place outside of the current universe that won't be affected by its destruction? And how do the survivors leave sub-space and emerge into the new universe? If the spacecraft are riding on/ahead of the shockwave of the sub-space explosion, they must be traveling very very fast. How are they collecting samples at that speed? Even the Enterprise drops out of warp when it encounters something worth investigating. If they're traveling at a speed more realistic for the task set out for them, the alien race that sent them could/would be extinct before the job was done. I'm assuming there are many spacecraft going off in every direction once your sub-space explosion is detonated. Although they would presumably start fairly close to each other, in no time at all they'll be millions of kilometers apart, with that distance growing rapidly. How do you account for all the potential collectible samples that will fall through the net as none of the spacecraft flies within even a few billion kilometers of them (entire galaxies will be missed)? Why would the aliens do this instead of, say, picking an uninhabited galaxy and using its stars to manufacture elements as required using some super-advanced technology to speed-up or manage the rate of fusion to overcome the problem of scarcity. It's your story, but to me, the technology to manage element production in stars sounds more attainable than the technology to drive sub-space data-waves, survivable sub-space pockets, space-ships that can collect data and samples of all potential intelligent species in the universe, or universe collapse / re-expansion. But what do I know? I don't even know what sub-space is.
Cantab Scholar Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 55

18th August 2012, 03:14 AM	#54
asydhouse Muse Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Swansea in the UK Posts: 533	Twenty years ago Stephen Baxter wrote a series of fantastically good sf books about the dark matter birds converting all the stars from the inside into stuff they needed for fuel or something.... the OP needs to read the entire oeuvre of Baxter and then return humbly to acknowledge that he, like most of us, should just shut up and read the works of the many fine and skilled and knowledgeable sf authors at work today at the cutting edge of scientific knowledge/hypotheses..... also, read Greg Egan and realise your own imagination is impoverished compared to the mere suggestions that real science has opened to these brilliant practitioners of truly creative writing.... stuff that makes the mundane scams of paranormalists look like the paltry dreams of ignorant dullards that they are. Read sf! Not only whacky ideas, but good stories and engaging characters, two ingredients not to be found in the Mind Body Spirit section of the bookshop!

18th August 2012, 12:57 PM	#55
JohnG Pedantic Bore Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Abandon All Hope Posts: 4,371	Originally Posted by asydhouse Twenty years ago Stephen Baxter wrote a series of fantastically good sf books about the dark matter birds converting all the stars from the inside into stuff they needed for fuel or something.... the OP needs to read the entire oeuvre of Baxter and then return humbly to acknowledge that he, like most of us, should just shut up and read the works of the many fine and skilled and knowledgeable sf authors at work today at the cutting edge of scientific knowledge/hypotheses..... also, read Greg Egan and realise your own imagination is impoverished compared to the mere suggestions that real science has opened to these brilliant practitioners of truly creative writing.... stuff that makes the mundane scams of paranormalists look like the paltry dreams of ignorant dullards that they are. Read sf! Not only whacky ideas, but good stories and engaging characters, two ingredients not to be found in the Mind Body Spirit section of the bookshop! ~~Amen~~ Ahem Originally Posted by JohnG I think the best use of I Am Who I Am's time would be spent reading some Clarke, Asimov and Baxter...and some Hawking, too while he's at it. I'm afraid we may have offended, embarrassed or scared I Am Who I Am away and if so, I'm sincerely sorry.
	__________________ Do not weep. Do not wax indignant. Understand. - Baruch Spinoza You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. -Harlan Ellison

18th August 2012, 02:26 PM	#56
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,443	Originally Posted by JohnG ~~Amen~~ Ahem I'm afraid we may have offended, embarrassed or scared I Am Who I Am away and if so, I'm sincerely sorry. I wish him/her the best of luck with the writing career.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

19th August 2012, 02:13 AM	#57
asydhouse Muse Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Swansea in the UK Posts: 533	Originally Posted by JohnG I'm afraid we may have offended, embarrassed or scared I Am Who I Am away and if so, I'm sincerely sorry. Me too, as he seemed like a light-hearted sort who could have been turned into a happy reader of sf, and maybe find the sf fan community more to his liking than the (paradoxically?)(certainly ironically!) more mundane life-of-the-imagination offered by the paranormal/new age mobs.... we've got a World SF Convention coming up in London around this time of year in 2014! The original and for a long time only refuge of nerds, until home computing etc came along!