"Magic" Tai Chi Powers

[Wudang]

I'm guessing crim meant to write "Adam Mizner".

[Wudang]

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

Asking them questions about martial arts is preparing them.

I'm pretty sure I'd be nervous about any approach from a stranger if I stepped into that room after being asked such questions, making it highly likely that I'd jump back - no paranormal powers would be required.

Recruit from a judo club? No ki/qui training at all but good level of body awareness?

[crimresearch]

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

I'm not sure if you are trolling or joking or haven't watched the videos or what. You clearly have some “clue as to who Michael Phillips is” from your 2nd post in this thread:




As far as "no bio-mechanical factors":

Mysteries of Tai Chi Chuan - Part 1 of 3, time stamp 8:44.




And throughout this video series he speaks of the "mystery” of Tai Chi, and the “energy” and being able to “lift” the person off the ground. Phillips even explains (Part 1, 6:50) that this is not just applying force that pushes somebody over where they stumble back, but rather actually where

Thanks, I in fact skipped around, and I didn't spend the time to go through the whole batch, once I saw how he was doing what he was doing, which was an obvious elementary bounce and some other tricks like the ones explained earlier.

Is he so famous that not knowing who he is looks like trolling?

It was the OP who brought him up... they said they couldn't post the links, so I did it for them.
Other than that I've never heard of Michael Phillips.

I know who Peter Ralston is, I know who Mike Sigman is, I know who Tsung Hwa Jou was, Douglas Wile etc.
I know who many people in Taiji are, either in person or by reputation (some good some not so good)... but I still don't know who Michael Phillips is.

[crimresearch]

Originally Posted by Wudang

I'm guessing crim meant to write "Adam Mizner".

Seriously, are these people suddenly famous?

I don't spend any time at all these days keeping up with Who's Who in the neijia world, I just practice, and rarely do any taiji...
(One of the side effects of Tai Chi practice is that it makes you look like a 90 year old Chinese guy in only about 40 years... )

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by Wudang

Recruit from a judo club? No ki/qui training at all but good level of body awareness?

Possibly, but I suspect a heightened defense mechanism might effect the outcome.

OP, what's wrong with getting Chi skeptics to be subjects?

[Wudang]

Originally Posted by crimresearch

Seriously, are these people suddenly famous?

I don't spend any time at all these days keeping up with Who's Who in the neijia world, I just practice, and rarely do any taiji...
(One of the side effects of Tai Chi practice is that it makes you look like a 90 year old Chinese guy in only about 40 years... )

No sorry, never heard of either. Misunderstanding.

[Stigweard]

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

"Methods used The test is structured as close to a double-blind as possible. The main test subject, referred to as the Demonstrator, will be attempting to perform fajin on randomly selected, unknowing and unprepared test subjects within a controlled environment.

...

"Test subjects would be asked a simply lead-in questionnaire as to their knowledge and experience of martial arts, in particular Chinese IMA. This will be used to correlate post-test data."


Asking them questions about martial arts is preparing them.

I'm pretty sure I'd be nervous about any approach from a stranger if I stepped into that room after being asked such questions, making it highly likely that I'd jump back - no paranormal powers would be required.

Yup fair point ;-)

Still watching, reading, taking notes, and preparing 2nd draft ;-)

[mike3]

Originally Posted by crimresearch

If those videos are the Michael Phillips ones, 'bounce jin' and so on are real things. There is definitely physical force being used.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMcZd...feature=relmfu

The counterintuitive part is how can a smaller/older person make a slight twitch, and get such an explosive reaction from a larger/younger person?

In the same manner that people can perform other unusual feats of physical prowess... lots of specialized training and practice, to the point of re-'shaping' their physiology.
Acrobats, dancers, sword swallowers, contortionists, Olympic athletes for example.

Don't forget exceptional genetics, too. And also, not missing the "critical period" in early childhood. So all three of those are required.

[mike3]

Originally Posted by crimresearch

If those videos are the Michael Phillips ones, 'bounce jin' and so on are real things. There is definitely physical force being used.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMcZd...feature=relmfu

The counterintuitive part is how can a smaller/older person make a slight twitch, and get such an explosive reaction from a larger/younger person?

In the same manner that people can perform other unusual feats of physical prowess... lots of specialized training and practice, to the point of re-'shaping' their physiology.
Acrobats, dancers, sword swallowers, contortionists, Olympic athletes for example.

Don't forget exceptional genetics, too. And also, not missing the "critical period" in early childhood. So all three of those are required.

[wardenclyffe]

Just checking in here to see if Stigweard has approached any of the practitioners about being tested yet.

Ward

[Moss]

*sets up the Phrost signal*

[Wudang]

I'll ring Dan Docherty and see if he's stocked up on water.

[ugot2bekidding]

Originally Posted by Stigweard

OK so here is the draft protocol:

Quote:

Whilst some IMA practice and demonstrate a form of fajin that is merely a superior coordination of bio-mechanics to release a sudden impulse of physical force (search for "Chen Xiang's Bajiquan scientific" on Youtube), within styles like Tai Chi Chuan fajin is regarded as a paranormal ability.

The bold part is false. In my younger days, I had devoted 20yrs to the practice of various forms of all three Chinese Internal Arts. And while I had experience with many teachers from authentic lineages, not one made any claims of paranormal activity. In fact, it was common knowledge that people who made those claims were street hawkers and circus performers, or otherwise unscrupulous.

Sadly, it is these unscrupulous/delusional practitioners that have come to represent these arts in the eyes of outsiders.

On the other hand, there's Chen Xiaowang. His family invented Taijiquan 19 generations ago, and he's considered the Grand Master of the art today. He does not make any paranormal claims. What he does do is teach and demonstrate sound principles of bio-mechanics. His mid-air punches have an audible snap, even when he's wearing nothing but a t-shirt. I once stood about eight feet away from him while he threw a punch during a form performance, and I could feel the floor shake under my feet. It was a bouncy wooden gym floor, but still an impressive display of explosive power.

Or Luo Dexiu, student of the famed Hung Ixiang ( the 'not so little elephant' in Robert Smith's classic Chinese Boxing ). Luo had successfully represented Hung's school in Taiwan's vicious full-contact tournament circuit. I can assure you he never claimed to beat his opponents by shooting Chi out of his palms, or any such nonsense.

To clarify, Taijiquan does not claim fajin is supernatural, only unscrupulous/delusional/ignorant practitioners make that claim.

ETA: I didn't read the whole thread, but I see now that Wudang already brought up the same point.

[jimtron]

Originally Posted by Jim_MDP

ETA: Don't make me invoke Bullshido!

I was going to mention that...just in case there's anyone who isn't familiar with Bullshido, it's a great site that points out the ridiculous claims made by some martial arts practitioners.

http://www.bullshido.net/

[Ellen Travis]

Originally Posted by crimresearch

.....

I know who Peter Ralston is, I know who Mike Sigman is, I know who Tsung Hwa Jou was, Douglas Wile etc.
I know who many people in Taiji are, either in person or by reputation (some good some not so good)... but I still don't know who Michael Phillips is.

Apologies for the derail

I just wondered whether you might know anything about "tai chi master" Jason Chan?

He is appearing in this woofest in December
http://thebigom.org/show-line-up/

His website is here
http://www.lightfoundation.co.uk/

and according to his bio

Quote:

Jason Chan is a spiritual master and healer whose energy and teachings have transformed and enlightened the lives of hundreds of his close students, as well as touching the lives of thousands more spiritual seekers who have attended his courses, retreats, workshops and demonstrations in the UK, Ireland, Europe, USA and Thailand. He is also the author of The Radiant Warrior (Hay House 2009) and was voted Most Inspirational Individual in 2008 by readers of Kindred Spirit Magazine. Kindred Spirit 21st Anniversary Awards 2008 said: “Jason has quietly, with dignity and integrity, worked tirelessly to help others find inner peace and balance.”

For over 20 years Jason has dedicated his life to passing on the benefits of his “Infinite Arts” including rejuvenation, vitality, natural health, inner strength and spiritual growth.

Jason is a master of martial arts, who received in-depth training in Chinese martial arts, Tai Chi, Chi Kung and sacred Taoist arts as a child and young adult in Hong Kong. He then brought these ancient arts to the West where he developed and perfected them. He is the creator of Infinite Tai Chi™, Infinite Chi Kung™, Infinite Meditation™, Infinite Chi Yoga™ (a fusion of yoga and Chi Kung), and Ling Chi Healing™. An inspiring teacher, Jason now devotes himself to leading spiritual workshops and retreats, Infinite Tai Chi™ and Advanced Infinite Tai Chi teacher training courses, and Ling Chi Healing practitioner’s courses in the UK, Republic of Ireland and abroad.

“Looking at life from the highest possible view, we can see that there is a definite order in all that happens in nature and the Universe. We are part of nature and it follows that we are affected by the same patterns, cycles, flow, change and movement of the natural laws. It is from these ancient sources of wisdom that the “Infinite Arts” have drawn their unique view of life.” – Jason Chan 2000

http://www.lightfoundation.co.uk/about-us/jason-chan/

You can see him on this video at 3.11 minutes in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlaqGvrhGWw

I cannot find any information about his lineage and just wondered if you had heard of him. Thanks

[Wudang]

Had a quick look at some videos - at first I thought he was doing a Chee Soo form (not a good sign) but it doesn't show a great understanding of the principles - in the video below he seems to be doing a push with his back leaning back

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

If you're looking for tai chi in the Manchester area try http://www.wanghaijun.com/

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by ugot2bekidding

His mid-air punches have an audible snap, even when he's wearing nothing but a t-shirt. I once stood about eight feet away from him while he threw a punch during a form performance, and I could feel the floor shake under my feet. It was a bouncy wooden gym floor, but still an impressive display of explosive power.

1. What is his hand hitting that causes the concussive noise to be made?
2. Why in the world would the floor shake when he swings his arms(no matter how fast he does it)...unless his body is also jumping at the same time?

[Wudang]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

1. What is his hand hitting that causes the concussive noise to be made?
2. Why in the world would the floor shake when he swings his arms(no matter how fast he does it)...unless his body is also jumping at the same time?

For 2 - it's a feature of internal MA most obvious in Chen taichi especially "hidden hand punch". Best video I could find below. Can you see how his weight moves and force goes into the floor as he punches?

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[Czarcasm]

I head the rustle of his loose sleeve and heard him exhale loudly, and while he might of pushed down with his leg when he threw his arm, I didn't see any "force go into the floor"...and neither did you.

edited to add: If "force" actually was directed towards the floor, it seems to me to be a waste of energy that should have been directed towards the punch, instead.

[Wudang]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

he might of (sic) pushed down with his leg when he threw his arm, I didn't see any "force go into the floor"

Would you like to clarify what you mean because I can't see any way of pushing down with his leg without directing force into the floor? It's how every martial art punches more or less. Push the floor and and since it doesn't move Newton's 3rd comes into effect.

eta: in most tai chi styles, one trick is "bounce jing" where basically they lift the back heel a little then slam it down as part of the punch.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by Wudang

Would you like to clarify what you mean because I can't see any way of pushing down with his leg without directing force into the floor? It's how every martial art punches more or less. Push the floor and and since it doesn't move Newton's 3rd comes into effect.

"Seeing the force go into the floor" is a highly exaggerated way to say that he pushed his leg down, and pushing down with the leg is a far cry from making the floor shake with the force of a punch, wouldn't you say? Couldn't you please describe what is happening in that video without sounding like the announcer for an action movie trailer?

[Wudang]

First remember it's a springy wooden gym floor. Some of those you can feel someone just bounce on the spot from feet away. Here's an article by a mechanical engineer with a heavy background in tai chi. Just look at the 2 pictures as the articles have some jargon in them, any of which I'm happy to try to explain. If in the 2nd pic the rear heel is slightly raised it gives a space to "accelerate" in. This can produce an audible thump and from a good chen stylist he can lose energy into an absorbent floor.



http://ismag.iay.org.uk/issue-4/how-to.htm

[Mr. Scott]

Originally Posted by rjh01

Yellow bamboo anyone?

Yea, the OP reminded me of the Yellow Bamboo business -- been there done that. I really enjoyed this test of their magic powers.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[Stigweard]

I do apologize for the delay in coming back to the good folks that have contributed to my "little campaign". Below is an up to date version of the protocol for this project.

I will be very much upfront here by saying that I am now seeking 100% confirmation from JREF that, if someone can pass this test, they will win the $1mill.

Quote:

Protocol to Test Yang Style Subtle Fajin

Abstract:

Background

The drafting of this test for Yang Style Subtle Fajin (YSSF) ability (see Definition of Yang Style Subtle Fajin below) came about through various discussions with Tai Chi Chuan practitioners across social media platforms like Facebook and topic related forums. It has been revealed that there is a complete lack of verifiable scientific evidence to support the reality of such ability, and neither is there any collection of experimental data that accurately outlines the mechanism of how it works.

The claimants of such ability insist that the "how" is beyond the ability of science to measure or prove one way or the other. They also insist that the only way to "prove it" is for you to visit one of these claimants and feel it for yourself.

However, such subjective evidence is unreliable because of the inherent fallibility of human psychology (meaning people who want to believe will react in a way to support their belief). Claimants will also point to the various demonstration video clips on Youtube as some sort of proof. These however are also discounted as verifiable evidence because:

a) They are all done with complicit and compliant subjects (usually their students), and these subjects are usually trained to stand in certain way and touch the demonstrator in a certain way,

b) They are all done in a non-controlled environment.

Since this YSSF ability is said to endow superior combat advantage, the main conventional way to prove such skill is in a bout of full contact combat (albeit with rules and protection equipment to prevent serious injury). However claimants have thus far been either unable or unwilling to acquiesce to this challenge (which in itself is revealing).

An indication of this is that, to date, there is not one video on Youtube to be found that shows YSSF used in any environment where the opponent is genuinely non-compliant and competing to their full extent.

As a secondary avenue of validation, it has been proposed that a scientific protocol can be developed that can effectively measure and validate YSSF without the risks involved in full contact combat.

It is upon this background and considerations that this protocol has been developed.

Purpose In terms of its purpose, firstly it has to be clearly stated that this is not intended to debunk or discredit any person or tradition. Its purpose is to provide a format to create a foundation of scientific inquiry into this mysterious martial arts technique. Very specifically, this first protocol is about discovering a resolution to this specific question:

• Can YSSF be performed in a controlled scientific environment using non-compliant, non-complicit test subjects?

Methods used The test is structured as close to a double-blind as possible. The main test subject, referred to as the Demonstrator, will be attempting to perform YSSF on randomly selected, unknowing and unprepared test subjects within a controlled environment.

Results The results will be presented both in simple percentage terms and in terms of success or failure of the target result. These results, and associated video footage, may be used by all parties involved for educational purposes. These results will also become a collection of base-line data for further study and investigation of fajin and associated subjects.

If the results to this test come back as a "Yes", then the line of future research moves in the direction of "How are they doing it? What body/mind mechanics are they using? What practice techniques did they use to acquire that skill?"

If the results come back as a "No", then the line of research moves in the direction of "In what way is the student being compliant? What mindset have they adopted? How are they holding their body to produce the effect?"

Definition of Yang Style Subtle Fajin

Fajin (meaning "Issue Power") is a martial arts technique contained within the field of "Internal Martial Arts" (IMA) originating in China. IMA include martial arts styles like Tai Chi Chuan, Bagua Chuan, Xin Yi Chuan etc.

Whilst many IMA practice and demonstrate a form of fajin that is merely a superior coordination of bio-mechanics to release a sudden impulse of physical force (search for "Chen Xiang's Bajiquan scientific" on Youtube), within Tai Chi Chuan styles like the Yang family style fajin is regarded as the ability to issue or release a special form of energy (referred to as Jin).

Quite specifically, experts of Yang Style Subtle Fajin (YSSF) claim they can make opponents "bounce" away in an involuntary manner with only the merest of touches by an opponent (i.e. either the opponent only touches the demonstrator's forearms with finger tips or the demonstrator touches the opponent with the lightest of touches). The characteristics and observable signs of YSSF include:

• specifically does not rely upon nor adhere to Newton's Second Law of Force (i.e. Force = Mass x Acceleration),
• with the demonstrator standing with feet parallel with someone at least their own size facing them in a well-rooted stance of their choice (e.g. classical bow stance etc.), the demonstrator can instantly shear the opponent off their feet, both feet clear off the ground in a single moment, and send him backwards 3-4 feet. Both feet lift off the ground at the same time and land and the same time.
• whilst there may be a visible "pulse-wave" passing thru the body-system, if the demonstrator's elbows accelerates forward and follows the trajectory of the opponent as he is thrown backwards, what has just occurred is definitely NOT YSSF,
• to reemphasize, the wrists and elbows of the person issuing YSSF do not follow the opponent, as they would if one were merely "pushing" with the muscles,
• does not use the physical force generated by agonist (prime mover) muscle contraction (that is typical of ordinary forms of movement) beyond some absolute minimum amount that is required to keep the body structure together and upright,
• no discernible tension in one's shoulders, elbows, or wrists that would signify the use of muscular engagement to produce the force,
• the subject (i.e. the person being pushed) shows no sign of initiating their reactive movement, i.e. there is no sign of the subject pushing with their legs that would imply a "jump" backwards, nor pushing back off the Demonstrator's arms with their hands.

Stipulations:

1. The Demonstrator cannot speak aloud or make any vocal/audible sounds.
2. The Demonstrator cannot make any foot-tapping, knocking, or other forms of noise that can be used as communication.
3. The Demonstrator can make no facial expressions in an attempt to produce a reaction in the test subjects.
4. The Demonstrator must wear only neutral clothing and nothing they wear must indicate any proficiency in martial arts or combat nor give any indication of what the test subjects might experience.
5. Subjects must be randomly selected and can not be a student, friend, associate or family member of the Demonstrator.
6. The test will be recorded via cam recorder.
7. The supervisors of the test must be independent and have no prior connection with the Demonstrator nor have any investment in the outcome of the test,
8. The test must be overseen by an independent authority and have no prior connection with the Demonstrator. An appropriate authority would be a University faculty or independent research organization. This authority does not have to have any prior association with martial arts.

If any of the above listed are violated, or if it is determined the Demonstrator has attempted to tilt the results in his favor due to trickery of any kind, the test will be halted immediately and considered a failure.

Test Subjects:

Due to the physical nature of this test the test subjects must be able bodied and of an appropriate level of fitness. Test subjects will be required to complete a participation form where they declare that they are in such health as able to participate in a contact sport environment, and if in doubt, must produce a doctor's clearance for them to be able to participate in the test.

When introducing test subjects to the test protocol they will be presented with a simple written explanation:

<<< Martial Arts Version >>>

"You will be participating in a scientific experiment to test a specific aspect of the Martial Arts. Your responsibility is simple: you will be required to stand in whatever position you feel comfortable, stable, and relaxed. From the stable standing position, you will stand with your arms outstretched toward the Demonstrator.

Then, the Demonstrator will make contact with your outstretched arms, and exhibit a specific - non-violent / safe - skill found in a variety of MA. We will record the result on you, as well as on a variety of other MAists to test different reactions & outcomes.

There is no "right" or "wrong" outcome. You should respond in whatever way feels natural, and relax knowing there is no preconceived outcome required of you. Also, the experiment is designed to be 100% safe, secure, and risk-free to you as a test subject, so remember to feel totally relaxed and at-ease throughout the process."

<<< Random Non-Martial Arts Version >>>

"You will be participating in a scientific experiment to test the physical responses of one human being interacting via contact with another in a specific way. The goal of this experiment is to record your reactions to this contact, and to test whether different individuals respond in different ways.

Your responsibility is simple: you will be required to stand in whatever position you feel comfortable, stable, and relaxed. From the stable standing position, you will stand with your arms outstretched toward the Demonstrator.

Then, the Demonstrator will make contact with your outstretched arms, and we will record the result. The experiment may cause some reaction in you, but there is no "right" or "wrong" outcome. You should respond in whatever way feels natural, and relax knowing there is no preconceived outcome required of you. Also, the experiment is designed to be 100% safe, secure, and risk-free to you as a test subject, so remember to feel totally relaxed and at-ease throughout the process."

Materials required:

• 1 Fajin Demonstrator who has read this protocol and agreed in writing that it is a fair and accurate test for YSSF,
• 30 randomly selected test subjects that meet Stipulation 5 (see "Stipulations")
• 2 x adjoining rooms separated by a closable door that complete blocks visibility and limits audio from one room into the next
• Ground mats jigsaw puzzle style (for health and safety precautions)
• Cam recorder
• 1 box to hold index cards
• 2 sets of 30 index cards number 1 to 30
• 1 coin
• 6 supervisors that meet Stipulation 5 (see "Stipulations")

Optional Additional Materials:

For the purpose of measuring whether the Demonstrator or the test subject transfers force down into the floor (i.e. either the Demonstrator the subject pushes with their legs) then having electronic pressure sensor mats positioned on the floor would be a desirable option.

Set-up:

Test Room (where the test will be conducted):

• the floor will be covered completely with the ground mats.
• cam recorder will be set up facing center, side-on to the Demonstrator
• three supervisors will be present

Prep room (where the test subjects will wait until tested):

• table with prepared index cards
• three supervisors will be present

Successful Test of YSSF:

If the Demonstrator can make the test subject physically move in a non-compliant way (i.e. meaning that the test subject will involuntarily move their feet and whole body away from the Demonstrator) using ONLY YSSF (see "Definition of Yang Style Subtle Fajin" above) then the result will be considered a ‘hit’. If there are six (6) hits out of ten (10) attempts, the Demonstrator will have achieved the target result and the test deemed a success. Anything less than six (6) and the test is a failure.

Pre-Test Demonstration:

As a point of comparison and evaluation, the Demonstrator can present a demonstration of YSSF with their own students (or other subjects of their choosing). This demonstration will be recorded with a digital camera and can then be used as benchmark for the "blind" tests.

Protocol:

A group of 30 potential test subjects, who have passed Stipulation #5, will be gathered in the Prep room with 3 Supervisors whilst the Demonstrator will wait with the other 3 Supervisors in Test room.

One set of the index cards numbered 1 to 30 will be shuffled and one card given to each test subject by a Supervisor, the other set will be shuffled by another Supervisor and dropped in the box in a loose fashion and shuffled. One at a time an index card will be withdrawn from the box and the test subject whose number matches this card will be escorted into the Test Room by a Supervisor and handed to the care of one of the Test Room Supervisors.

However, for the purpose of further randomizing the results and as a safe-guard, BEFORE the subject is brought in, a Test Room Supervisor will flip a coin and if the result is 'tails' the Demonstrator will do a "false test".

A "false test" means that the Demonstrator will NOT attempt to push the subject. But will merely touch the subjects arms with no push attempted.

A coin toss of 'heads' will mean the test proceeds as normal. The test subject is not to know whether the test is a normal or false test.

One of the Test Room Supervisors will give the test subject brief instruction on what to do (i.e. they will read out the explanation that appears in the "Test Subjects" section).

For example:

"Your responsibility is simple: you will be required to stand in whatever position you feel comfortable, stable, and relaxed. From the stable standing position, you will stand with your arms outstretched toward the Demonstrator.

Then, the Demonstrator will make contact with your outstretched arms, and we will record the result. The experiment may cause some reaction in you, but there is no "right" or "wrong" outcome. You should respond in whatever way feels natural, and relax knowing there is no preconceived outcome required of you. Also, the experiment is designed to be 100% safe, secure, and risk-free to you as a test subject, so remember to feel totally relaxed and at-ease throughout the process."

The Demonstrator will have 15secs to attempt to physically move the test subject using ONLY YSSF (see "Definition of Yang Style Subtle Fajin" above).

After either a normal or false test is executed, the subject will be escorted from the room (via another door – i.e. the test subject will not be permitted to have any interaction with other possible test subjects) by a Supervisor.

The test will be repeated with a different test subject until a total of 10 actual (i.e. the coin toss was heads and the Demonstrator does attempt to physically move the test subject) attempts have been conducted.

Time required:

No more than 1 hour.

[Wudang]

Why require the demonstrator to "make contact"? Since it can be "the opponent only touches the demonstrator's forearms with finger tips" let the demonstrator stand with his forearm raised (something like ward off posture) and the subject lightly touches the forearm. From above the elbow of that forearm should not need to move to have an effect. In fact by the above no part of the body should need to move, correct?

Oh and we shouldn't limit it to agonist muscles - that would be rather silly as it's well know that tai chi uses antagonist muscles as well.

[wardenclyffe]

I haven't read the protocol yet, but I do know that you will not get 100% confirmation on anything from us. We are just forum members like yourself. You would have to submit this directly to the folks at JREF's Million Dollar Challenge:

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

And I don't know if they will approve a protocol before anyone has even filled out an application form.

Ward

[Wudang]

And in fact given the premises of the so-called YSSF there is no reason why the demonstrator should not perform the test seated in an arm-wrestling type position. There are a few apparent disjuncts between the initial premise and test it seems to me.

Eta : not speaking for the MDC in any form.

[wardenclyffe]

Now I've read the protocol. It seems OK. Perhaps overly complex. But again, I don't think the JREF or any other testing organization will take it seriously until they have an applicant with a media presence and academic affidavits. The JREF will ultimately negotiate the protocol with the applicant and not an intermediary like yourself. And I think such a final protocol would probably end up looking a lot like what you have outlined.

Please note that the testing organization will have to come up with a workable venue and a whole bunch of test volunteers. Depending on how well connected they are, this might cost some money and the applicant is responsible for all costs of the test.

Ward

[Sherman Bay]

Stigweard,have you applied for the MDC? That's the first step.

[Stigweard]

Heya folks, apologies I haven't been in for awhile. I have decided to set up a Facebook group called The Fajin Project:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/thefajinproject/

I am trying to facilitate the folks who claim the abilities listed in this thread to make application for the $1mill challenge. I recognize and appreciate that it is a matter between JREF and the applicant themselves so I am just trying to "push" people in this direction.

No doubt you are familiar with people looking for the exit door trying to say that the JREF has no credibility and that money wouldn't exist. When I have shown them the bank statement pdf some have used the fact that it isn't all in liquid cash as an excuse to say it isn't legit.

http://www.randi.org/site/images/stories/evercore.pdf

So, if someone was successful, how would the assets be delivered? Would they receive said Equities?? Would it all be turned into liquid cash first ??

Cheers

[Wudang]

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...lenge-faq.html

Section 3 covers the money.

[wardenclyffe]

Originally Posted by Stigweard

Heya folks, apologies I haven't been in for awhile. I have decided to set up a Facebook group called The Fajin Project:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/thefajinproject/

I am trying to facilitate the folks who claim the abilities listed in this thread to make application for the $1mill challenge. I recognize and appreciate that it is a matter between JREF and the applicant themselves so I am just trying to "push" people in this direction.

No doubt you are familiar with people looking for the exit door trying to say that the JREF has no credibility and that money wouldn't exist. When I have shown them the bank statement pdf some have used the fact that it isn't all in liquid cash as an excuse to say it isn't legit.

http://www.randi.org/site/images/stories/evercore.pdf

So, if someone was successful, how would the assets be delivered? Would they receive said Equities?? Would it all be turned into liquid cash first ??

Cheers

Since there is a very clear contract between the JREF and the applicant, payment should be easy. If the applicant fulfills his or her part of the contract and the JREF does not pay up, then the applicant sues the JREF. The JREF won't have a leg to stand on in court and they would have to pony up the million and probably punitive damages, as well. Plus, winning the challenge would result in so much money from other sources that the million would seem like a pittance.

Ward

[yairhol]

Originally Posted by Stigweard

Heya folks, apologies I haven't been in for awhile. I have decided to set up a Facebook group called The Fajin Project:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/thefajinproject/

I am trying to facilitate the folks who claim the abilities listed in this thread to make application for the $1mill challenge. I recognize and appreciate that it is a matter between JREF and the applicant themselves so I am just trying to "push" people in this direction.

No doubt you are familiar with people looking for the exit door trying to say that the JREF has no credibility and that money wouldn't exist. When I have shown them the bank statement pdf some have used the fact that it isn't all in liquid cash as an excuse to say it isn't legit.

http://www.randi.org/site/images/stories/evercore.pdf

So, if someone was successful, how would the assets be delivered? Would they receive said Equities?? Would it all be turned into liquid cash first ??

Cheers

Funny stuff.
If someone proved they have these powers that you claim then the million dollars will be small change compared to the fame and wealth they would get from the actually having those powers. Think about it. Which scientific, martial arts and other organization wouldn't pay huge dollars for that person to come over and be observed or teach others, give talks about it, etc. etc. etc....Forget the million, prove to the world that these powers exist.

[wardenclyffe]

I'm not on facebook, so someone who is, please keep us updated on what's going on over there.

Thanks,
Ward

[leonAzul]

This is really silly. I don't know anyone who has studied oriental martial arts at any depth who would make such a claim. The only "magic" to it is effort applied over time to achieve a result. The rest is all poetry and didactics, helpful for learning and memorization, but not at all intended to be theoretical.

[Wudang]

It's a bit of a mixed bag as you'd expect of an open group. One post is interesting but I'm waiting for the author's permission before I repost it here. He posted on a site called the Kwoon apparently and not sure if that was meant for public consumption or not.

[xterra]

Originally Posted by wardenclyffe

I'm not on facebook, so someone who is, please keep us updated on what's going on over there.

Thanks,
Ward

+1

[Paul2]

Originally Posted by Stigweard

I recognize and appreciate that it is a matter between JREF and the applicant themselves so I am just trying to "push" people in this direction.

The first action has to be the claimant sending in an application, so it's not the JREF that should be pushed, at least initially. The first step is completely the applicant's. Negotiating details of the test happens after the application is submitted with the initial, proposed protocol (correct me if I'm wrong).

[wardenclyffe]

I think he means he's trying to push push potential applicants in the JREF's direction. Stigweard seems to have a handle on how things work.

Ward

[Paul2]

K, never mind. [/sheepishly]