Gun forum discrimination

Courier · 13th November 2012, 07:31 PM

Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control?

Many of them seem to not tolerate anyone who dares to advocate for reasonable amounts of gun control and this is disturbing.

Newtons Bit · 13th November 2012, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by Courier

Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control?

Many of them seem to not tolerate anyone who dares to advocate for reasonable amounts of gun control and this is disturbing.

Welcome to the internet, where people who don't agree with you might not want to let you voice your opinion.

Redtail · 13th November 2012, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

Welcome to the internet, where people who don't agree with you might not want to let you voice your opinion.

^This. I got kicked off of a motorcycle forum because I asked a question about a Harley.

BStrong · 13th November 2012, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Courier

Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control?

Many of them seem to not tolerate anyone who dares to advocate for reasonable amounts of gun control and this is disturbing.

Build your own forum.

From my POV, most gun forums that are well moderated will allow reasonable discussions from both sides on most topics, gun control included, but don't suffer trolls.

On one of the boards I hang out on, one absolute dead certain thread nuke subject is motorcycle lane sharing - any such thread that gets posted gets nuked quick.

If you're not a gun owner and it shows in your posts in the forum you're referring to, and you're there to support gun control measures, that might be the problem.

BStrong · 13th November 2012, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by Redtail

^This. I got kicked off of a motorcycle forum because I asked a question about a Harley.

Oh, so you're one of those, eh?

Redtail · 13th November 2012, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by BStrong

Oh, so you're one of those, eh?

Nope. I ride a Victory.

Giz · 13th November 2012, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by Courier

Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control?

Many of them seem to not tolerate anyone who dares to advocate for reasonable amounts of gun control and this is disturbing.

People often prefer to hear like-minded views (both online and in real life).

They may also feel trolled if all of your posts revolve around why they shouldn't be allowed to own their guns (you might be coming across like an atheist heckler at a church service).

I Ratant · 13th November 2012, 08:02 PM

Never ever ask what is the difference between a Harley and a Hoover vacuum cleaner.

tyr_13 · 13th November 2012, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Redtail

^This. I got kicked off of a motorcycle forum because I asked a question about a Harley.

Who's Harley? Was she one of the mods?

Kid Eager · 13th November 2012, 08:13 PM

Harley was the name of my aunt's pet weasel that died and talks to me in spirit about archaeology.

There was also a comet that had a similar name, but my weasel is too young to have seen it.

Cylinder · 13th November 2012, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by Courier

Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control?

Many of them seem to not tolerate anyone who dares to advocate for reasonable amounts of gun control and this is disturbing.

Define common sense. I'm guessing that's where the problem is.

Boone 870 · 13th November 2012, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

Never ever ask what is the difference between a Harley and a Hoover vacuum cleaner.

That and never ask what Harley-Davidsons and hemorrhoids have in common.

Noztradamus · 13th November 2012, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by Courier

Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control?

~~~

Because experience has shown that folks who start out claiming ownership of "a balanced & common sense view of gun control" will soon ask "What's the difference between a gun and a nuclear bomb?"

Not saying that's going to be you, but you can't blame the "gun-nuts" for playing the percentages.

Ranb · 13th November 2012, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by Courier

Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control?

Many of them seem to not tolerate anyone who dares to advocate for reasonable amounts of gun control and this is disturbing.

What gun forums are you speaking of? I was kicked off of The Firearms Forum for telling a person who called me a potential criminal for making firearms without a license he didn't know what he was talking about. I was banned for a week from The Firing Line for commenting on a closed thread where I disagreed with a moderator about silencer legalities. When I questioned the staff in PM's with another moderator, the ban was made permanent. Many forums are mini dictatorships and run the way the staff wants. You should not be expecting rational views about guns on a gun forum anymore than you could expect it here.

The JREF forum is at its core anti-gun in the way it is moderated. While most of us would not play along with anyone who supports ridiculous notions we see from the birthers, truthers and other whack jobs out there, it seems to be perfectly acceptable to some otherwise rational people on this forum to post irrational claims about guns, gun owners and gun law. Never mind that no rational person would believe that the federal government bans (insert any type of gun here) possession by civilians, they just make it up and think the people who read the forum are stupid enough to believe it. Then when someone objects, the inquiring person is sometimes subjected to insults and /or demands that they provide the evidence to prove the irrational claim wrong instead of the usual standard of the person making the original claim doing so.

While I used to hope that gun forums would be able to hold themselves to a higher standard when it comes to discussing guns, I have learned to be disappointed. I will be glad to see a higher standard here someday.

Ranb

PetersCreek · 13th November 2012, 11:46 PM

The main kind of gun forum discrimination I've encountered is along the lines of M1911 vs Glock, .45 ACP vs 9 mm, et al. Me, I'm pretty easy going. If people want to shoot pencil erasers out of their combat Tupperware, I'm okay with that. But don't be hatin' on my stainless 1911...or the scary black rifle I bought today.

Travis · 14th November 2012, 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by BStrong

Build your own forum.

From my POV, most gun forums that are well moderated will allow reasonable discussions from both sides on most topics, gun control included, but don't suffer trolls.

On one of the boards I hang out on, one absolute dead certain thread nuke subject is motorcycle lane sharing - any such thread that gets posted gets nuked quick.

If you're not a gun owner and it shows in your posts in the forum you're referring to, and you're there to support gun control measures, that might be the problem.

Not that I'm a radical or anything but anyone that supports motorcycle lane sharing should be forced to watch their children burned in oil.

Seriously how is that even something people argue about?

3point14 · 14th November 2012, 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by BStrong

<Snipped>
If you're not a gun owner and it shows in your posts in the forum you're referring to, and you're there to support gun control measures, that might be the problem.

So these people believe that only gun owners can discuss or have an opinion on gun control measures? I think that's fallacious on their part.

ponderingturtle · 14th November 2012, 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by Ranb

What gun forums are you speaking of? I was kicked off of The Firearms Forum for telling a person who called me a potential criminal for making firearms without a license he didn't know what he was talking about. I was banned for a week from The Firing Line for commenting on a closed thread where I disagreed with a moderator about silencer legalities. When I questioned the staff in PM's with another moderator, the ban was made permanent. Many forums are mini dictatorships and run the way the staff wants. You should not be expecting rational views about guns on a gun forum anymore than you could expect it here.

Why expect it anywhere? Guns are like parenting. Everyone has their set views and you are not going to change anyones minds. Also there is a broad range of views that can produce acceptable results.

Cleon · 14th November 2012, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by Redtail

^This. I got kicked off of a motorcycle forum because I asked a question about a Harley.

Was it, "why do you idiots spend $30,000 on an underpowered, overly loud patchwork of chrome and leather that leaks (on good days) oil and (on bad days) engine parts?"

'Cause I think that would do it.

Jack by the hedge · 14th November 2012, 04:13 AM

Originally Posted by Courier

Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control?

Doesn't everyone have a balanced and common sense view of gun control? Has anyone ever claimed to have an unbalanced and idiotic view on gun control?

BStrong · 14th November 2012, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

Not that I'm a radical or anything but anyone that supports motorcycle lane sharing should be forced to watch their children burned in oil.

Seriously how is that even something people argue about?

There are individuals on the forum in question that will assert that it's illegal in California and they will attempt to "stop" a rider from breaking the law...

BStrong · 14th November 2012, 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

So these people believe that only gun owners can discuss or have an opinion on gun control measures? I think that's fallacious on their part.

If that was the totality of the issue with the poster questioning gun control, you'd be correct.

The common experience is that a poster would come onto the forum and would immediately post a statement concerning gun control that was wholly inncorrect ("You can walk into a store and buy a machine gun without any restriction!" is common) and after being informed of what the law really is with links to the statute in question, the poster will either ignore the facts or go onto the next Brady campaign talking point and so on.

Over the years I've seen more absolute nonsense thrown around on the 'net about gun control than any other subject other than fringe CT ********.

If anybody comes onto firearms forums and asks questions about firearms with an apparent desire to learn something, they're welcome. Including questions about applicable law.

TragicMonkey · 14th November 2012, 05:07 AM

I've always felt it was acceptable to share a lane if you're both riding Harleys and carrying illegal guns. On your way to a rally for Palestinian statehood. Did I cover everything? Oh yeah. A "snakes have eyelids" bumpersticker.

mikeyx · 14th November 2012, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by Courier

Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control?

Many of them seem to not tolerate anyone who dares to advocate for reasonable amounts of gun control and this is disturbing.

Before I even read the rest of the form, what is YOUR definition of reasonable amounts of gun control? I'll further pepper that steak with the observation you're playing (or trying to) in THEIR playground, kinda like trying to be a liberal voice on freerepublic or conversely the rightwing voice on daily kos, good luck being either.

Crossbow · 14th November 2012, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by Courier

Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control?

Many of them seem to not tolerate anyone who dares to advocate for reasonable amounts of gun control and this is disturbing.

I expect it is because gun nuts are really nuts.

Or to put the issue more fully, I have found that just about everyone who is enthused about guns and gun stuff is extremely defensive about them to the point of illogic.

For example, a while back a JREF poster started a thread about silencers so I pointed out to him that he should be careful about such things since silencers are illegal. And within just a few minutes he pointed out to me that silencers are legal provided that one has the proper license for them, that the one makes the silencer for just that one weapon, and that that the silencer is not transferred (in other words, if you sell the gun, then the silencer cannot be sold with it).

So I checked the law, and it turned out he was quite right; silencers for firearms are legal, but just within a very narrow framework. Therefore I apologized and retracted my comments (the correction took about one hour to make).

And then, things got really weird. This poster demanded that I show him web sites that said where silencers were illegal, and how did get such a silly idea about how silencers are illegal, and so on. He also sent me several private messages on these topics.

So again, in both public messages and private messages I explained that my orginal statement was incorrect and if wanted web research done on incorrect legal opinions on firearm silencer issues, then he would have to do that himself since I was satisfied that my original opinion was incorrect. However, that really was never enough for him.

Eventually, this person dropped the topic; I am still not entirely sure, maybe he finally figured out that when I said my original legal opinion on firearm silencers was wrong I really meant that my original legal opinion on firearm silencers was wrong.

Further, a couple of days after I posted my original opinion about firearm silencers another JREF poster made some very defensive comments about it as well. So I pointed out to him that I had quicly updated that opinion and if he would bother to check my very next postin in the subject, then he could find out for himself. Note: I never did hear from this poster again, so I think that at least it did not take too very much effort for him to expand his understanding.

Anyway, these boring exchanges show how extremely defensive (to the point of illogic) gun nuts can be about their guns.

joesixpack · 14th November 2012, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by Crossbow

I expect it is because gun nuts are really nuts.

Oh I'm certain that must be it. You had some difficulty with two gun nuts, therefore every gun nut lacks critical thinking skills. This makes total sense and I'm glad you weighed in on this issue. Never mind that the OP went on a gun forum and was advocating further restrictions on gun ownership, he says he has a "balanced and common sense" outlook, so we may as well take his word on that. No chance that he was behaving like many of the trolls who've gone on those same gun forums and been banned for trollish behavior.

fuelair · 14th November 2012, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

Never ever ask what is the difference between a Harley and a Hoover vacuum cleaner.

There isn't one, they both suck????????

(fuelairtiptoes out quickly and quietly..................)

Ranb · 14th November 2012, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by Crossbow

For example, a while back a JREF poster started a thread about silencers so I pointed out to him that he should be careful about such things since silencers are illegal.

This sounds like the time when you told me that silencers were illegal after I asked for advice on a video that contained silencer use and contained evidence that silencers were legal in the USA. You substituted underlining the word illegal for any research; a Birther style tactic.

Originally Posted by Crossbow

And within just a few minutes he pointed out to me that silencers are legal provided that one has the proper license for them, that the one makes the silencer for just that one weapon, and that that the silencer is not transferred (in other words, if you sell the gun, then the silencer cannot be sold with it).

This part however does not sound like me at all. I would never say anything so blatantly false or stupid.

Originally Posted by Crossbow

So I checked the law, and it turned out he was quite right; silencers for firearms are legal, but just within a very narrow framework.

You checking the law? Sounds like you didn't based on the above paragraph.

Originally Posted by Crossbow

Therefore I apologized and retracted my comments (the correction took about one hour to make).

As far as I remember the only comments retracted were that silencers were illegal and the ones the mods moved to AAH.

Originally Posted by Crossbow

Eventually, this person dropped the topic; I am still not entirely sure, maybe he finally figured out that when I said my original legal opinion on firearm silencers was wrong I really meant that my original legal opinion on firearm silencers was wrong.

As I recall you implied I was a pig on the forum, sent me a PM stating I was a pig, never posted a suitable apology and refused to discuss the topic anymore.

Originally Posted by Crossbow

Anyway, these boring exchanges show how extremely defensive (to the point of illogic) gun nuts can be about their guns.

Just because a person backpedals does not mean their original irrational claim was okay to make.

Ranb

Beady · 14th November 2012, 07:10 AM

Here I go again. I am a gun owner. My primary interest is in cowboy-type guns and I own several modern replicas of American handguns and long guns from 1865 to 1911. The only two present exceptions are a Swiss Luger made ca 1977 (because I've always liked the style) and a 9mm double-action S&W semi-auto pistol that I use for concealed carry (CCW). I don't carry often or without purpose, but I'm not shy about it, either.

I also hang out on a particular shooting forum and, yes, a lot of the participants get to be irrational. OTOH, I've learned how and when to disagree with them without things going nuclear. It's really very simple: keep it impersonal and speak their language, not yours. The central strategy is, it's much easier to have a civil disagreement if you treat your opponent as a friend.

BTW, go over to the religion forum, here, and see how many notional atheists go nuclear when you say something on the order of there are some good things about religion. My bet is that you'll be able to substitute all their religion-related terms with gun-related terms. The only question is whether the result would come out sounding pro- or antigun. The vehemence will be the same.

To directly answer the OP, the concensus among gun owners is that anti-gunners' idea of "reasonable restrictions" is neither trustworthy nor stable.

Ranb · 14th November 2012, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by fuelair

There isn't one, they both suck????????

(fuelairtiptoes out quickly and quietly..................)

I thought it had something to do with the position of the dirt bag.

I own an 883n, best bike I ever had. The fuel injection ensures it starts within 1 second of pushing the start button 100% of the time so far. The stock exhaust is not too loud and the tires stick to the road very well. The handle bars are a bit low for my taste, there is no tach, the foot pegs scrape the pavement too soon in a sharp turn and it took me a while to locate saddle bags small enough to fit without relocating the tail lights andlicense plate holder. I hate putting premium gas in it. I was told that I could buy Power Commander or another fuel/timing system to adjust for fuel/power/economy, but the $300 cost of the unit eats up any gas savings until I ride it as least 60,000 miles. I'll stick with premium gas.

Ranb

I Ratant · 14th November 2012, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by fuelair

There isn't one, they both suck????????

(fuelairtiptoes out quickly and quietly..................)

.
No. Harleys can be cool.. when properly muffled. And without those absurd ape hanger bars.
It's the location of the dirt bag....

Beerina · 14th November 2012, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Courier

Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control?

Many of them seem to not tolerate anyone who dares to advocate for reasonable amounts of gun control and this is disturbing.

I used to go to stardestroyer.net and talk about how the power levels of Star Wars ships were no big deal compared to Star Trek, and how their huge power wattage was idiocy from some published board game, and not reflective of explosion size when ships shot each other.

Crude facts that challenge feel like attacks.

3point14 · 14th November 2012, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

I used to go to stardestroyer.net and talk about how the power levels of Star Wars ships were no big deal compared to Star Trek, and how their huge power wattage was idiocy from some published board game, and not reflective of explosion size when ships shot each other.

Crude facts that challenge feel like attacks.

And you did this because..?

ServiceSoon · 14th November 2012, 09:51 AM

You have to take into consideration that this might be the first time discussing a certain topic for you, but if you go to a website with a specific theme, chances are that the regular patrons of that website have already discussed that topic ad nauseam.

It’s not just pro-gun people that can react like this. Pick any topic and I could find a group of people that will get very emotional and passionate when discussing said topic. I was at a small-town bar once and I asked a guy with a Harley shirt what he thought about the brand after explaining that I was looking to get a motorcycle and I wasn’t sure what type to get. I was honestly considering getting a Harley. He wanted to fight me. Apparently a very sensitive subject for him.

I no longer visit websites that are specifically pro-gun, because of the over-moderation. For a site that speaks of liberty and freedom the mods are very overbearing. You’ll find that here at the JREF they allow a lot of open and honest discussion. Follow a few simple rules and use some common-sense and you’ll enjoy your stay here. Sure, you can find other websites that have little to no moderation, but those sites are full of egg-heads. Most of the people here are a pleasure to speak with.

Out of curiosity, what do you consider balanced and common-sense gun control policy?

Beerina · 14th November 2012, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

And you did this because..?

Stirring things up.

Belz... · 14th November 2012, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by joesixpack

Oh I'm certain that must be it. You had some difficulty with two gun nuts, therefore every gun nut lacks critical thinking skills.

Well, since nuts are, pretty much by definition, lacking in critical thinking skills, yes.

joesixpack · 14th November 2012, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Well, since nuts are, pretty much by definition, lacking in critical thinking skills, yes.

Well, since anyone who owns more than two guns is considered a "gun nut", I don't think the label holds much water.

PetersCreek · 14th November 2012, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Well, since nuts are, pretty much by definition, lacking in critical thinking skills, yes.

Perhaps if one conflates two possible definitions of 'nut'. Although the term has been hijacked by those who use it pejoratively, 'gun nuts' (read: gun enthusiasts) are generally no more/less unhinged (IME) than sports nuts, car nuts, et al...with the possible but not absolute exception of critical thinking nuts.

My humble (and likely futile) attempt to take the term back from those who use it pejoratively:

Nessie · 14th November 2012, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by BStrong

.....

On one of the boards I hang out on, one absolute dead certain thread nuke subject is motorcycle lane sharing - any such thread that gets posted gets nuked quick.

.......

By motorcycle lane sharing, do you mean what we call filtering where you go down between stopped or slow moving cars?

On hifi forums questioning whether a cable can really improve sound quality is guaranteed to get a sharp response. I have been permanently banned from two such forums and had temporary bans from another two for asking just such a question.

FenerFan · 14th November 2012, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by PetersCreek

The main kind of gun forum discrimination I've encountered is along the lines of M1911 vs Glock, .45 ACP vs 9 mm, et al. Me, I'm pretty easy going. If people want to shoot pencil erasers out of their combat Tupperware, I'm okay with that. But don't be hatin' on my stainless 1911...or the scary black rifle I bought today.

When I first read your post, I laughed at the line about 'combat tupperware' as I thought you added that in humour as an example of your open-mindedness. Because I have too much free time I googled it and learned something new. Thanks.

13th November 2012, 07:31 PM	#1
Courier Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,181	Gun forum discrimination Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control? Many of them seem to not tolerate anyone who dares to advocate for reasonable amounts of gun control and this is disturbing.
Courier Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,181

13th November 2012, 07:35 PM	#2
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,879	Originally Posted by Courier Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control? Many of them seem to not tolerate anyone who dares to advocate for reasonable amounts of gun control and this is disturbing. Welcome to the internet, where people who don't agree with you might not want to let you voice your opinion.
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,879	__________________ "Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein My website.

13th November 2012, 07:38 PM	#3
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,303	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit Welcome to the internet, where people who don't agree with you might not want to let you voice your opinion. ^This. I got kicked off of a motorcycle forum because I asked a question about a Harley.
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,303	__________________ AVENGERS!!!.. Turn off the dark!

13th November 2012, 07:59 PM	#6
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,303	Originally Posted by BStrong Oh, so you're one of those, eh? Nope. I ride a Victory.
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,303	__________________ AVENGERS!!!.. Turn off the dark!

13th November 2012, 08:04 PM	#9
tyr_13 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Falconer, NY Posts: 9,651	Originally Posted by Redtail ^This. I got kicked off of a motorcycle forum because I asked a question about a Harley. Who's Harley? Was she one of the mods?
	__________________ Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong

13th November 2012, 07:41 PM	#4
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 3,783	Originally Posted by Courier Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control? Many of them seem to not tolerate anyone who dares to advocate for reasonable amounts of gun control and this is disturbing. Build your own forum. From my POV, most gun forums that are well moderated will allow reasonable discussions from both sides on most topics, gun control included, but don't suffer trolls. On one of the boards I hang out on, one absolute dead certain thread nuke subject is motorcycle lane sharing - any such thread that gets posted gets nuked quick. If you're not a gun owner and it shows in your posts in the forum you're referring to, and you're there to support gun control measures, that might be the problem.

13th November 2012, 07:42 PM	#5
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 3,783	Originally Posted by Redtail ^This. I got kicked off of a motorcycle forum because I asked a question about a Harley. Oh, so you're one of those, eh?

13th November 2012, 08:01 PM	#7
Giz Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: UK/US Posts: 3,424	Originally Posted by Courier Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control? Many of them seem to not tolerate anyone who dares to advocate for reasonable amounts of gun control and this is disturbing. People often prefer to hear like-minded views (both online and in real life). They may also feel trolled if all of your posts revolve around why they shouldn't be allowed to own their guns (you might be coming across like an atheist heckler at a church service).

13th November 2012, 08:02 PM	#8
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Never ever ask what is the difference between a Harley and a Hoover vacuum cleaner.

13th November 2012, 08:13 PM	#10
Kid Eager Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 3,471	Harley was the name of my aunt's pet weasel that died and talks to me in spirit about archaeology. There was also a comet that had a similar name, but my weasel is too young to have seen it.
	__________________ What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....

13th November 2012, 08:16 PM	#11
Cylinder Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,834	Originally Posted by Courier Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control? Many of them seem to not tolerate anyone who dares to advocate for reasonable amounts of gun control and this is disturbing. Define common sense. I'm guessing that's where the problem is.
	__________________ If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed ; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves. - Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm

13th November 2012, 08:21 PM	#12
Boone 870 Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 180	Originally Posted by I Ratant Never ever ask what is the difference between a Harley and a Hoover vacuum cleaner. That and never ask what Harley-Davidsons and hemorrhoids have in common.
Boone 870 Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 180

13th November 2012, 09:15 PM	#13
Noztradamus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,843	Originally Posted by Courier Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control? ~~~ Because experience has shown that folks who start out claiming ownership of "a balanced & common sense view of gun control" will soon ask "What's the difference between a gun and a nuclear bomb?" Not saying that's going to be you, but you can't blame the "gun-nuts" for playing the percentages.
	__________________ The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.

13th November 2012, 09:50 PM	#14
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,094	Originally Posted by Courier Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control? Many of them seem to not tolerate anyone who dares to advocate for reasonable amounts of gun control and this is disturbing. What gun forums are you speaking of? I was kicked off of The Firearms Forum for telling a person who called me a potential criminal for making firearms without a license he didn't know what he was talking about. I was banned for a week from The Firing Line for commenting on a closed thread where I disagreed with a moderator about silencer legalities. When I questioned the staff in PM's with another moderator, the ban was made permanent. Many forums are mini dictatorships and run the way the staff wants. You should not be expecting rational views about guns on a gun forum anymore than you could expect it here. The JREF forum is at its core anti-gun in the way it is moderated. While most of us would not play along with anyone who supports ridiculous notions we see from the birthers, truthers and other whack jobs out there, it seems to be perfectly acceptable to some otherwise rational people on this forum to post irrational claims about guns, gun owners and gun law. Never mind that no rational person would believe that the federal government bans (insert any type of gun here) possession by civilians, they just make it up and think the people who read the forum are stupid enough to believe it. Then when someone objects, the inquiring person is sometimes subjected to insults and /or demands that they provide the evidence to prove the irrational claim wrong instead of the usual standard of the person making the original claim doing so. While I used to hope that gun forums would be able to hold themselves to a higher standard when it comes to discussing guns, I have learned to be disappointed. I will be glad to see a higher standard here someday. Ranb

13th November 2012, 11:46 PM	#15
PetersCreek Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 551	The main kind of gun forum discrimination I've encountered is along the lines of M1911 vs Glock, .45 ACP vs 9 mm, et al. Me, I'm pretty easy going. If people want to shoot pencil erasers out of their combat Tupperware, I'm okay with that. But don't be hatin' on my stainless 1911...or the scary black rifle I bought today.
PetersCreek Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 551

14th November 2012, 02:00 AM	#16
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,937	Originally Posted by BStrong Build your own forum. From my POV, most gun forums that are well moderated will allow reasonable discussions from both sides on most topics, gun control included, but don't suffer trolls. On one of the boards I hang out on, one absolute dead certain thread nuke subject is motorcycle lane sharing - any such thread that gets posted gets nuked quick. If you're not a gun owner and it shows in your posts in the forum you're referring to, and you're there to support gun control measures, that might be the problem. Not that I'm a radical or anything but anyone that supports motorcycle lane sharing should be forced to watch their children burned in oil. Seriously how is that even something people argue about?
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy

14th November 2012, 02:12 AM	#17
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London ish Posts: 3,594	Originally Posted by BStrong <Snipped> If you're not a gun owner and it shows in your posts in the forum you're referring to, and you're there to support gun control measures, that might be the problem. So these people believe that only gun owners can discuss or have an opinion on gun control measures? I think that's fallacious on their part.
	__________________ Cull the delusional.

14th November 2012, 03:44 AM	#18
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,417	Originally Posted by Ranb What gun forums are you speaking of? I was kicked off of The Firearms Forum for telling a person who called me a potential criminal for making firearms without a license he didn't know what he was talking about. I was banned for a week from The Firing Line for commenting on a closed thread where I disagreed with a moderator about silencer legalities. When I questioned the staff in PM's with another moderator, the ban was made permanent. Many forums are mini dictatorships and run the way the staff wants. You should not be expecting rational views about guns on a gun forum anymore than you could expect it here. Why expect it anywhere? Guns are like parenting. Everyone has their set views and you are not going to change anyones minds. Also there is a broad range of views that can produce acceptable results.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

14th November 2012, 04:01 AM	#19
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,506	Originally Posted by Redtail ^This. I got kicked off of a motorcycle forum because I asked a question about a Harley. Was it, "why do you idiots spend $30,000 on an underpowered, overly loud patchwork of chrome and leather that leaks (on good days) oil and (on bad days) engine parts?" 'Cause I think that would do it.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

14th November 2012, 04:13 AM	#20
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,403	Originally Posted by Courier Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control? Doesn't everyone have a balanced and common sense view of gun control? Has anyone ever claimed to have an unbalanced and idiotic view on gun control?

14th November 2012, 04:52 AM	#21
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 3,783	Originally Posted by Travis Not that I'm a radical or anything but anyone that supports motorcycle lane sharing should be forced to watch their children burned in oil. Seriously how is that even something people argue about? There are individuals on the forum in question that will assert that it's illegal in California and they will attempt to "stop" a rider from breaking the law...

14th November 2012, 05:03 AM	#22
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 3,783	Originally Posted by 3point14 So these people believe that only gun owners can discuss or have an opinion on gun control measures? I think that's fallacious on their part. If that was the totality of the issue with the poster questioning gun control, you'd be correct. The common experience is that a poster would come onto the forum and would immediately post a statement concerning gun control that was wholly inncorrect ("You can walk into a store and buy a machine gun without any restriction!" is common) and after being informed of what the law really is with links to the statute in question, the poster will either ignore the facts or go onto the next Brady campaign talking point and so on. Over the years I've seen more absolute nonsense thrown around on the 'net about gun control than any other subject other than fringe CT ********. If anybody comes onto firearms forums and asks questions about firearms with an apparent desire to learn something, they're welcome. Including questions about applicable law.

14th November 2012, 05:07 AM	#23
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,059	I've always felt it was acceptable to share a lane if you're both riding Harleys and carrying illegal guns. On your way to a rally for Palestinian statehood. Did I cover everything? Oh yeah. A "snakes have eyelids" bumpersticker.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

14th November 2012, 05:12 AM	#24
mikeyx Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 3,570	Originally Posted by Courier Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control? Many of them seem to not tolerate anyone who dares to advocate for reasonable amounts of gun control and this is disturbing. Before I even read the rest of the form, what is YOUR definition of reasonable amounts of gun control? I'll further pepper that steak with the observation you're playing (or trying to) in THEIR playground, kinda like trying to be a liberal voice on freerepublic or conversely the rightwing voice on daily kos, good luck being either.
mikeyx Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 3,570

14th November 2012, 05:49 AM	#25
Crossbow Seeking Honesty and Sanity Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 6,292	Originally Posted by Courier Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control? Many of them seem to not tolerate anyone who dares to advocate for reasonable amounts of gun control and this is disturbing. I expect it is because gun nuts are really nuts. Or to put the issue more fully, I have found that just about everyone who is enthused about guns and gun stuff is extremely defensive about them to the point of illogic. For example, a while back a JREF poster started a thread about silencers so I pointed out to him that he should be careful about such things since silencers are illegal. And within just a few minutes he pointed out to me that silencers are legal provided that one has the proper license for them, that the one makes the silencer for just that one weapon, and that that the silencer is not transferred (in other words, if you sell the gun, then the silencer cannot be sold with it). So I checked the law, and it turned out he was quite right; silencers for firearms are legal, but just within a very narrow framework. Therefore I apologized and retracted my comments (the correction took about one hour to make). And then, things got really weird. This poster demanded that I show him web sites that said where silencers were illegal, and how did get such a silly idea about how silencers are illegal, and so on. He also sent me several private messages on these topics. So again, in both public messages and private messages I explained that my orginal statement was incorrect and if wanted web research done on incorrect legal opinions on firearm silencer issues, then he would have to do that himself since I was satisfied that my original opinion was incorrect. However, that really was never enough for him. Eventually, this person dropped the topic; I am still not entirely sure, maybe he finally figured out that when I said my original legal opinion on firearm silencers was wrong I really meant that my original legal opinion on firearm silencers was wrong. Further, a couple of days after I posted my original opinion about firearm silencers another JREF poster made some very defensive comments about it as well. So I pointed out to him that I had quicly updated that opinion and if he would bother to check my very next postin in the subject, then he could find out for himself. Note: I never did hear from this poster again, so I think that at least it did not take too very much effort for him to expand his understanding. Anyway, these boring exchanges show how extremely defensive (to the point of illogic) gun nuts can be about their guns.
	__________________ A man's best friend is his dogma.

14th November 2012, 06:04 AM	#26
joesixpack Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Edge of the continent, Pacific county, WA Posts: 3,381	Originally Posted by Crossbow I expect it is because gun nuts are really nuts. Oh I'm certain that must be it. You had some difficulty with two gun nuts, therefore every gun nut lacks critical thinking skills. This makes total sense and I'm glad you weighed in on this issue. Never mind that the OP went on a gun forum and was advocating further restrictions on gun ownership, he says he has a "balanced and common sense" outlook, so we may as well take his word on that. No chance that he was behaving like many of the trolls who've gone on those same gun forums and been banned for trollish behavior.
	__________________ I never got in trouble by bein' ignorant, I always got in trouble 'cause I thought I wasn't.

14th November 2012, 06:12 AM	#27
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,881	Originally Posted by I Ratant Never ever ask what is the difference between a Harley and a Hoover vacuum cleaner. There isn't one, they both suck????????(fuelairtiptoes out quickly and quietly..................)
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,881	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

14th November 2012, 06:24 AM	#28
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,094	Originally Posted by Crossbow For example, a while back a JREF poster started a thread about silencers so I pointed out to him that he should be careful about such things since silencers are illegal. This sounds like the time when you told me that silencers were illegal after I asked for advice on a video that contained silencer use and contained evidence that silencers were legal in the USA. You substituted underlining the word illegal for any research; a Birther style tactic. Originally Posted by Crossbow And within just a few minutes he pointed out to me that silencers are legal provided that one has the proper license for them, that the one makes the silencer for just that one weapon, and that that the silencer is not transferred (in other words, if you sell the gun, then the silencer cannot be sold with it). This part however does not sound like me at all. I would never say anything so blatantly false or stupid. Originally Posted by Crossbow So I checked the law, and it turned out he was quite right; silencers for firearms are legal, but just within a very narrow framework. You checking the law? Sounds like you didn't based on the above paragraph. Originally Posted by Crossbow Therefore I apologized and retracted my comments (the correction took about one hour to make). As far as I remember the only comments retracted were that silencers were illegal and the ones the mods moved to AAH. Originally Posted by Crossbow Eventually, this person dropped the topic; I am still not entirely sure, maybe he finally figured out that when I said my original legal opinion on firearm silencers was wrong I really meant that my original legal opinion on firearm silencers was wrong. As I recall you implied I was a pig on the forum, sent me a PM stating I was a pig, never posted a suitable apology and refused to discuss the topic anymore. Originally Posted by Crossbow Anyway, these boring exchanges show how extremely defensive (to the point of illogic) gun nuts can be about their guns. Just because a person backpedals does not mean their original irrational claim was okay to make. Ranb
	Last edited by Ranb; 14th November 2012 at 07:47 AM.

14th November 2012, 07:10 AM	#29
Beady Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: 44:57:19N, 73:16:18W Posts: 5,490	Here I go again. I am a gun owner. My primary interest is in cowboy-type guns and I own several modern replicas of American handguns and long guns from 1865 to 1911. The only two present exceptions are a Swiss Luger made ca 1977 (because I've always liked the style) and a 9mm double-action S&W semi-auto pistol that I use for concealed carry (CCW). I don't carry often or without purpose, but I'm not shy about it, either. I also hang out on a particular shooting forum and, yes, a lot of the participants get to be irrational. OTOH, I've learned how and when to disagree with them without things going nuclear. It's really very simple: keep it impersonal and speak their language, not yours. The central strategy is, it's much easier to have a civil disagreement if you treat your opponent as a friend. BTW, go over to the religion forum, here, and see how many notional atheists go nuclear when you say something on the order of there are some good things about religion. My bet is that you'll be able to substitute all their religion-related terms with gun-related terms. The only question is whether the result would come out sounding pro- or antigun. The vehemence will be the same. To directly answer the OP, the concensus among gun owners is that anti-gunners' idea of "reasonable restrictions" is neither trustworthy nor stable.
	__________________ I tolerate with utmost latitude the right of others to differ with me in opinion without imputing to them criminality. I know too well all the weaknesses and uncertainty of human reason to wonder at its different results. -- Thomas Jefferson

14th November 2012, 07:29 AM	#30
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,094	Originally Posted by fuelair There isn't one, they both suck????????(fuelairtiptoes out quickly and quietly..................) I thought it had something to do with the position of the dirt bag. I own an 883n, best bike I ever had. The fuel injection ensures it starts within 1 second of pushing the start button 100% of the time so far. The stock exhaust is not too loud and the tires stick to the road very well. The handle bars are a bit low for my taste, there is no tach, the foot pegs scrape the pavement too soon in a sharp turn and it took me a while to locate saddle bags small enough to fit without relocating the tail lights andlicense plate holder. I hate putting premium gas in it. I was told that I could buy Power Commander or another fuel/timing system to adjust for fuel/power/economy, but the $300 cost of the unit eats up any gas savings until I ride it as least 60,000 miles. I'll stick with premium gas. Ranb
	Last edited by Ranb; 14th November 2012 at 09:01 AM.

14th November 2012, 08:31 AM	#31
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by fuelair There isn't one, they both suck????????(fuelairtiptoes out quickly and quietly..................) . No. Harleys can be cool.. when properly muffled. And without those absurd ape hanger bars. It's the location of the dirt bag....

14th November 2012, 08:56 AM	#32
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by Courier Why do so many internet gun forums have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to folks who have a balanced & common sense view of gun control? Many of them seem to not tolerate anyone who dares to advocate for reasonable amounts of gun control and this is disturbing. I used to go to stardestroyer.net and talk about how the power levels of Star Wars ships were no big deal compared to Star Trek, and how their huge power wattage was idiocy from some published board game, and not reflective of explosion size when ships shot each other. Crude facts that challenge feel like attacks.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? Last edited by Beerina; 14th November 2012 at 08:59 AM.

14th November 2012, 09:01 AM	#33
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London ish Posts: 3,594	Originally Posted by Beerina I used to go to stardestroyer.net and talk about how the power levels of Star Wars ships were no big deal compared to Star Trek, and how their huge power wattage was idiocy from some published board game, and not reflective of explosion size when ships shot each other. Crude facts that challenge feel like attacks. And you did this because..?
	__________________ Cull the delusional.

14th November 2012, 09:51 AM	#34
ServiceSoon Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 995	You have to take into consideration that this might be the first time discussing a certain topic for you, but if you go to a website with a specific theme, chances are that the regular patrons of that website have already discussed that topic ad nauseam. It’s not just pro-gun people that can react like this. Pick any topic and I could find a group of people that will get very emotional and passionate when discussing said topic. I was at a small-town bar once and I asked a guy with a Harley shirt what he thought about the brand after explaining that I was looking to get a motorcycle and I wasn’t sure what type to get. I was honestly considering getting a Harley. He wanted to fight me. Apparently a very sensitive subject for him. I no longer visit websites that are specifically pro-gun, because of the over-moderation. For a site that speaks of liberty and freedom the mods are very overbearing. You’ll find that here at the JREF they allow a lot of open and honest discussion. Follow a few simple rules and use some common-sense and you’ll enjoy your stay here. Sure, you can find other websites that have little to no moderation, but those sites are full of egg-heads. Most of the people here are a pleasure to speak with. Out of curiosity, what do you consider balanced and common-sense gun control policy?
ServiceSoon Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 995

14th November 2012, 10:36 AM	#35
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by 3point14 And you did this because..? Stirring things up.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?